SilverLinings: 22 Year Journey with Citalopram

[Altostrata]

Did you make any other changes since June 5?

[SilverLinings]

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Did you make any other changes since June 5?

No, no other changes. 

[Altostrata]

Hello, @SilverLinings

 

Any changes in your symptom pattern?

 

On 3/23/2023 at 6:18 PM, SilverLinings said:

Sure enough, about a week later, I got my period. Within 36 hours, all of the symptoms nearly went away. I got several great nights of sleep,

 

Are you still having these symptoms associated with your menstrual cycle?

[SilverLinings]

On 6/25/2023 at 9:33 AM, Altostrata said:

Are you still having these symptoms associated with your menstrual cycle?

 

I am, and it's possible that's what this is, although I'm not experiencing my other premenstrual symptoms like bloating, cramps, or cravings right now. I did start feeling some relief over the weekend. I'm still a bit keyed up, but not quite as bad. I'll keep monitoring.

[SilverLinings]

I decided to do another 10% cut on schedule on July 3. Just like last time, the anxiety and insomnia kicked in about two and a half weeks later. I had a terrible night's sleep last night and am gearing up for a few more. 

 

I did end up having a menstrual cycle last week as well, with similar symptoms leading up to it, but I could tell that those were pre menstrual-related due to the other physical symptoms (cramps, bloating). As usual, they all cleared up as soon as my cycle started.

 

While the withdrawal and PMS symptoms really stink and get in the way of my life, I'm trying to look at all of this as a win. I feel like I'm getting more in touch with my mind and body and am better able to identify what I'm experiencing. If the last two cuts are any indication of the rest of my taper, I now know what I can expect and can better prepare myself to deal with it.

 

On a side note, I know I wouldn't be where I am today if I hadn't quit drinking alcohol. I recognize that it is so, so hard to stop (it's still a daily struggle for me), but it has been so beneficial as I'm working through this tapering journey. I wish I had advice for anyone who's reading this and going through a similar struggle. All I can do is share that I think quitting has helped me immensely. 

[Mamgu]

Hi SilverLinings

 

Great to hear you're making progress and finding your WD patterns; and I also wanted to say well done on quitting alcohol.  It can be difficult at the best of times but during withdrawal it's even harder. 

 

14 hours ago, SilverLinings said:

I feel like I'm getting more in touch with my mind and body and am better able to identify what I'm experiencing.

 

I love this ⬆️ it's amazing how much we forget ourselves or lose who we are when on these drugs.  I find that it helps to recall this when the waves hit and the going gets tough.

x

 

 

[Fifree]

Hi there SilverLinings. I'm tapering escitalopram myself - citalopram's mean cousin. I I just wanted to jump in with some random technical info on liquid vs tablets: for citalopram the liquid may be stronger than the tablets. I've been warned about this by the very kind @Momiki. None of us want to accidentally updose! Here is a link to the UK Royal College of Psychiatrists which includes this warning:  8mg of citalopram (as hydrochloride) from oral drops is equivalent to 10mg of citalopram (as hydrobromide) in tablet form, so care should be taken when converting dose. 

 

I wondered if this may be partially what caused you dramas when you made the switch back in April/May. I guess the bottom line is to read the leaflet to check whether your drug is in the same form in both tablet and liquid. Obviously we hope that the dr/pharmacist will give us all the info we need, but sadly they don't always.

 

I wish you all the best with your taper.

 

Cheers

 

Fi

[SilverLinings]

5 hours ago, Fifree said:

Here is a link to the UK Royal College of Psychiatrists which includes this warning:  8mg of citalopram (as hydrochloride) from oral drops is equivalent to 10mg of citalopram (as hydrobromide) in tablet form, so care should be taken when converting dose. 

Thank you so much for sharing this info! I'm not located in the UK, so my liquid comes in a concentration of 10mg/5mL. It's frustrating that it differs so much between regions. That variance could really cause a lot of problems if people don't understand or aren't paying close attention. It's also so crazy to me that they don't make Citalopram in anything smaller than 10mg for the tablets. I guess it just goes to show how much the drug companies don't know (or don't care) about the process of getting off of this stuff. 

[Fifree]

6 hours ago, SilverLinings said:

so crazy to me that they don't make Citalopram in anything smaller than 10mg for the tablets

IKR! Here in Au the smallest Lexapro tablet is also 10 mg and apparently it's twice as strong as citalopram. Fortunately I am able to get superconcentrated liquid (1 drop = 1 mg) but it's pretty tedious measuring out those drops. 

 

At the risk of labouring a point, I just wanted to say that it's not about the mg/ml, it's about the form of the drug - hydrochloride vs hydrobromide. 8 mg of the hydrochloride is as strong as 10mg of the hydrobromide. It's worth checking the label/package insert very carefully.

 

All the best. Fi

[SilverLinings]

17 hours ago, Fifree said:

At the risk of labouring a point, I just wanted to say that it's not about the mg/ml, it's about the form of the drug - hydrochloride vs hydrobromide. 8 mg of the hydrochloride is as strong as 10mg of the hydrobromide. It's worth checking the label/package insert very carefully.

Oh, yes! Thank you for looking out for me; I really appreciate it! 🙂 My insert for the liquid does say that it's hydrobromide. It would be so maddening to accidentally updose. 

 

Best wishes to you on your tapering journey. 

[Fifree]

6 hours ago, SilverLinings said:

insert for the liquid does say that it's hydrobromide

 

Brilliant and thanks for the good wishes.

[SilverLinings]

I'm a little embarrassed to be coming back here, as my last post was so confident and optimistic. But, things took a really bad turn for me and I'm not sure what to do now. Really hoping I can get some advice.

 

The day after my last post, my wave got much worse. My mind and body seemed to have gotten stuck in full-on fight-or-flight mode for about 36 hours. I may as well have spent that day and a half getting chased through the woods by angry bear. I left myself a journal entry at 3:00am, and as I read it back, I am disturbed about my thoughts. I wrote that 1) I was going to throw in the towel with this taper, go back to 5mg, and stay there for the rest of my life, 2) I was no longer capable of holding down a job and needed to quit, and 3) I was seriously considering calling an ambulance to take me to the hospital. This is scary. I can't afford to quit my job and nothing good would have come out of a hospital visit. I think this was the worst experience I've had with withdrawals to date.

 

After that day and a half, I got some relief and felt much better. I couldn't wrap my head around how things could've possibly been that bad. Everything seemed fine. Now today, within the last few hours, I feel a whole new wave creeping up. I'm scared, I'm frustrated, I just spent the last hour curled in a ball on the floor sobbing. I don't want to keep taking this drug forever, but I can't keep going through this. I'm not strong enough.

 

I know I'm describing the classic windows and waves that we all have, and I know this pattern is unavoidable. But, I need to find a way to flatten out these waves so I can ride them through to the other side. Obviously, the 10% monthly cuts are too much for me to handle. Any opinions on where I should try to go from here? Should I try going back up to 4.5 or 5mg and starting over? Should I stay where I am at 4.05mg for a while and then switch to 5% cuts? Or, the "slide" method? I'm due for my next cut in 2 days, but obviously, I'm not going to do anything until I come up with a different plan.

[Mamgu]

Hi SilverLinings

 

I'm so sorry to read you're going through a rotten time.  I can totally sympathise, I recall not that long ago saying how much easier things were for me then BAM!  One of the biggest waves I've experienced slammed me to the ground.  I'm getting though it now but it could also come back to bite any day.

 

I can't advise on changing your dose in the short term as I'm no expert, but I would say this; when you're ready to start dropping the dose again give the Brass Monkey slide method some consideration.  I started that at the back end of last year because I found 10% drops were hammering me and found it much easier on my system.  That said, I'm now in a grotty wave but am coming through, thanks goodness.  Perhaps 4 or 5 Slides then a longer rest is needed, who knows?

 

Other things that keeps me going include:

• knowing those thoughts you described are normal in withdrawal and knowing it's your nervous system screaming out for some peace.
• when your thoughts turn to "I can't take this anymore, why did I even bother trying", try to move your thoughts away from that and towards "I know why this is happening and it will pass".  The more you do this the more effective it becomes.  It's like our brains are in free fall and our thoughts can guide it back on track; that's how I envisage it anyway.  I occasionally go back and re-read the sections on this site about waves and windows/WD normal etc to compound the message in my head (I'm a slow learner!!).
• It's normal to think those negative thoughts, it's the process and they will come.....but over time we can train our brains to not give them as much credence and they become that irritating relative you have to endure at family gatherings.  Hear them but don't feel them.
• Like you, it's important I keep my job; I know the only way I can do that and come off Citalopram is to take things extremely slooooooooow.  I don't compare my progress against anyone else's anymore, I used to but I found it can have a negative impact because I get frustrated at the time this is taking.
• One of the mantras on this site is Acceptance.  I have fully accepted this is a disturbing and painful process but also I've accepted this is where I am and I'm committed to a Citalopram-free future.
• I can't do much exercise lately, it can trigger symptoms but a gentle walk helps.  Particularly when I'm really struggling - I walk every day (dog owner so no choice!) but I find concentrating on the rhythm of my steps is very therapeutic.  Also, I often have raging energy (or whatever it is) in my head, so I focus on how each step feels in my feet.  I guess it's a kind of meditation, concentrating on what it feels like as my foot makes contact with the ground and leaves the ground.  I also imagine the earth supporting me, holding me up and steadying me.  
• I take extra magnesium citrate (powder dissolved in water) when things are tough.
• I use essential oils to soothe my moods
• I no longer push myself through when a wave hits big-time.  If I want to spend a day on the sofa watching cricket I will!
• Although I drink coffee I have drastically reduced my consumption due to the impact of caffeine on my withdrawal.  If you consume caffeine or have gone back to alcohol for that matter, try to wean off those.  Do you get Pukka tea in the US?  They do a lovely blend called 'Joy' Our latest creation, Joy | Pukka Herbs, it's amazing!
• Focus on what brings you joy, consider these and be thankful they are in your life.  I see some folks here writing gratitude lists and I think that helps - I do mine mentally but it helps to focus on what brings you joy and peace. 

These are things that help me through, perhaps some will help you too, I hope so.  I'm sure you'll find your own survival methods too as you work through this process 🙂.  I think your long term strategy would be to take things as slowly as they need to be, listen to your body and don't focus on numbers, dates etc.  My withdrawal plan went out the window after about a year!

 

Your signature says you're on half tablet half liquid, is this still the case?  If so could that be part of the big wave?  Perhaps you need to move onto 100% liquid and let that settle?

 

Sending you peace and love - please know (and I mean KNOW) this will cease and you'll feel well again.

xx

 

 

[SilverLinings]

Mamgu, I'm sorry for the delay in writing back to thank you. Thank you for taking the time to write all of that out for me. I've read it and re-read it over and over, and it has brought me a lot of comfort. 

 

I think what you said about acceptance and gratitude is so important - and so challenging! I'm trying to work on accepting the fact that this is going to take longer than I originally planned. I was avoiding the Brass Monkey slide because it would take slightly longer than sticking with the 10% every 4 weeks (even the 10% method was going to take me another year and half). I need to steel myself and accept that the year and a half isn't going to happen, but I can still keep making progress. When I stop and think about how far I've come, it's really incredible. I just cut my dose by almost 20% in two months! Almost a whole mg! And, if I look at my whole journey, I've reduced my original dose by over 93%! (The fact that I was originally prescribed 60mg of this stuff almost seems like a fever dream. How was that allowed to happen??) I'm grateful for my progress so far. 

 

I quit caffeinated drinks about 15 years ago, but I do eat some chocolate here and there. I will definitely check out that tea! No alcohol since a one-time slip up about 6 months ago. Exercise is another story. When I'm not in the middle of a bad wave, I'm still exercising pretty hard. That's one thing I just don't think I'm ready to give up, but maybe I'll try backing off a bit and seeing if it helps. For the citalopram, I'm still doing 2.5mg tablet and the rest liquid at the advice from this community, after a rough go of starting on the liquid. 

 

I'm so sorry to hear that you were just dealing with a bad wave. I'm glad you're starting to come around. Again, please know how much your kind words and advice mean to me. It's good to know that we're not dealing with this alone. ❤️

[Mamgu]

Hi SilverLinings, I'm really glad you found my thoughts helpful ❤️.  You most certainly are not alone, we're in this together and we'll get through it together 😊.

 

This is definitely a long process that challenges ourselves in ways we've probably never been challenged before. Particularly having to accept the long-term progress and knowing that rough days are inevitable.  I mean, we were going through challenges that led us to take the meds in the first place and I don't know about you but when I took Citalopram I felt much better after a few weeks.  Then my logic kind of thought coming off will be a fairly smooth process, oh how wrong was I?! 

 

One thing to watch out for is we are making conscious decisions to come off the drug but this can lead to unhelpful thoughts such as "I'm doing this to myself, I'm stupid for trying. I can give up, reinstate and all will be well again".  I've learnt this is another one of those inevitable thought processes that should be led down a different path.  By this I mean, when I notice my thoughts do this, I stop them.  Right there and then. Stop.  Then tell myself this isn't the only way to think....other ways include "OK, this is a bad phase, I've been here before and got through.  I'll have good days again and all will be well." Then crucially thoughts along the lines of what can I do, as opposed to what can't I do.  I get frustrated at not being able to go on those 10 miles walks anymore but you know what? I can walk 3 miles.  It might not be the same experience and I feel the whole array of disturbing physical symptoms but I can appreciate my dog is enjoying the walk. I'm able to put one foot in front of the other. I can feel sunlight on my face, the breeze against my arms. I can witness the birds flitting about the hedgerows, the insects scuttering about the ground. I can still be awed at the cloud formations, the trees swaying in the breezes. I'm generally good at seeing the silver linings (😉) but at times in withdrawal it's not instinctive, I have to train myself because withdrawal is trying to make me think otherwise.

 

So, your taper is going to take longer than you initially hoped.  OK, state that as a fact.  Don't dwell on the unfairness, it'll just make you worse (take it from someone who's been there too many times!).  Focus on things like "this is going to take longer than I hoped. I don't know when it'll end but it will end".  You can train your brain to be an ally rather than a trickster!  

 

Also and crucially, just look at how far you've come, I mean wow, just wow!  93% is not to be scoffed at 😊.  I'm certainly finding the lower doses more challenging and am slowing things down accordingly but recognising what has been achieved is more powerful than ruminating on what is to come.  You're doing so well and riding out the tough times will make you stronger and the process easier over time because there is your evidence....you got through it before and you will again.  Fact!

 

x

 

 

[rupa]

On 6/26/2023 at 8:28 PM, SilverLinings said:

 

I am, and it's possible that's what this is, although I'm not experiencing my other premenstrual symptoms like bloating, cramps, or cravings right now. I did start feeling some relief over the weekend. I'm still a bit keyed up, but not quite as bad. I'll keep monitoring.

Take stomach full of food at those days and see menstrual issues disappearing 

[rupa]

On 8/3/2023 at 8:51 AM, SilverLinings said:

Mamgu, I'm sorry for the delay in writing back to thank you. Thank you for taking the time to write all of that out for me. I've read it and re-read it over and over, and it has brought me a lot of comfort. 

 

I think what you said about acceptance and gratitude is so important - and so challenging! I'm trying to work on accepting the fact that this is going to take longer than I originally planned. I was avoiding the Brass Monkey slide because it would take slightly longer than sticking with the 10% every 4 weeks (even the 10% method was going to take me another year and half). I need to steel myself and accept that the year and a half isn't going to happen, but I can still keep making progress. When I stop and think about how far I've come, it's really incredible. I just cut my dose by almost 20% in two months! Almost a whole mg! And, if I look at my whole journey, I've reduced my original dose by over 93%! (The fact that I was originally prescribed 60mg of this stuff almost seems like a fever dream. How was that allowed to happen??) I'm grateful for my progress so far. 

 

I quit caffeinated drinks about 15 years ago, but I do eat some chocolate here and there. I will definitely check out that tea! No alcohol since a one-time slip up about 6 months ago. Exercise is another story. When I'm not in the middle of a bad wave, I'm still exercising pretty hard. That's one thing I just don't think I'm ready to give up, but maybe I'll try backing off a bit and seeing if it helps. For the citalopram, I'm still doing 2.5mg tablet and the rest liquid at the advice from this community, after a rough go of starting on the liquid. 

 

I'm so sorry to hear that you were just dealing with a bad wave. I'm glad you're starting to come around. Again, please know how much your kind words and advice mean to me. It's good to know that we're not dealing with this alone. ❤️

Patience required for five years by taking sleep inducing natural foods at night time 

For example soft rice , curds,bananas, turmeric,onions,warm milk etc 

 

Then experience the brain getting rewired eventually

 

Your fast taper only makes brain suffer through this five years healing process 

 

And 

 

these meds makes individual work like on caffeine

 

For example intense walk and exercise

 

Thus,taking multivitamins a must 

 

 

[SilverLinings]

Just a small update today. I'm still holding steady at 4.05mg. Unfortunately, I came down with Covid for the first time (that I know of) about a week and a half ago. My main symptom, which is still lingering, is exhaustion. I haven't been able to make it through the day without at least one nap, and I've been going to bed very early. It's almost funny, since a few weeks ago when I was in the middle of the withdrawal insomnia, I would've given anything for a nap or a full night's sleep.

 

I think I'm starting to feel better, and I've been testing negative for a couple of days, so hopefully this will just be a minor bump in the road. I'm planning to hold at 4.05mg until I'm sure I'm back to full physical health, and then I think I'm going to try the Brass Monkey slide method for my next cut. 

[Mamgu]

Sorry to hear about you having covid, I had the same experience when I had it, total exhaustion.  It seemed to take me ages to recover, very slow increase in energies, I could barley walk the dog for a few weeks after, but the good news is I recovered.  It's definitely a good idea to hold until you're over the virus, caution is the key!

x

[SilverLinings]

Just another small update. I am still at 4.05mg (1/2 tablet 1/2 liquid). It took me about a month to feel fully back to normal after having Covid. Since then, I've been feeling really stable, and I've very much been enjoying the stability. I'm getting regular sleep my other withdrawal symptoms have mostly dissipated. I still want to be done with these drugs, but I'm dreading the process, so I've been delaying restarting my taper.

 

I plan to slowly jump back in at the beginning of November, and will post updates. 

[SilverLinings]

I'm here today looking for some advice, if anyone has any thoughts.

 

I've been feeling pretty stable lately and made it through a 5% cut a little over a month ago without too bad of symptoms. There were some waves that came in the usual timing after I changed my dose, but I was able to weather them alright. 

 

I am still currently taking 2.5 mg of a tablet and the remaining amount as liquid, since I had some sensitivity when initially started to cross over to the liquid. I take both at the same time in the evening before I go to bed. I would really like to move over to all liquid, as that would be more accurate to measure and easier to manage. I also have my annual checkup in a few months and am worried my doctor may raise their eyebrows if I try to explain that I still want the prescriptions for both. 

 

I'm coming up on a 2.5 week break from work and what should be a quiet time in my personal life, so I'm considering doing the crossover all at once to get it over with. I would just stop taking the tablet, move to all liquid all at once, and white-knuckle my way through any initial waves during my downtime. I would then give myself some time to stabilize before making another cut to my dose. Does that seem terribly ill-advised? Would spreading out the timing and taking half of the liquid dose at a different time of the day help at all? 

 

Thank you so much, as always. 

[yoshi4844]

@SilverLinings Hey I hope you are doing well. 

6 hours ago, SilverLinings said:

I am still currently taking 2.5 mg of a tablet and the remaining amount as liquid, since I had some sensitivity when initially started to cross over to the liquid. I take both at the same time in the evening before I go to bed. I would really like to move over to all liquid, as that would be more accurate to measure and easier to manage. I also have my annual checkup in a few months and am worried my doctor may raise their eyebrows if I try to explain that I still want the prescriptions for both. 

In my experience, I felt the worst symptoms when I was taking a part liquid & part pill citalopram (whether it was 25:75, or 50:50). I did the weekly shift of 25% pill to liquid (which took 4 weeks). It is worth noting this was at 10mg so the shifts were probably harder maybe?

 

Switching to full liquid citalopram has made it so much easier to taper.

 

6 hours ago, SilverLinings said:

I'm coming up on a 2.5 week break from work and what should be a quiet time in my personal life, so I'm considering doing the crossover all at once to get it over with. I would just stop taking the tablet, move to all liquid all at once, and white-knuckle my way through any initial waves during my downtime. I would then give myself some time to stabilize before making another cut to my dose. Does that seem terribly ill-advised? Would spreading out the timing and taking half of the liquid dose at a different time of the day help at all? 

I am assuming you are taking 2.5mg pill and 1.35mg of liquid (out of the Nov 3.85mg). Maybe consider doing a change of 1.25mg pill to liquid weekly (or however long you feel necessary 33%ish change per week). But it also depends if you are feeling relatively stable right now as well. 

 

I hope this helps : ) 

[SilverLinings]

It's been a while, so I thought I would post an update. I successfully transitioned to all liquid in December, and it went smoothly. I think it helped that I was able to take an extended break from work. I had a couple of weeks of feeling really good and stable during that time, which has given me a lot of hope. It's nice to have something to look back on when I'm having a bad day.

 

I've also started tapering again and am down to 3.12mg. I'm still having some of "those" nights (laying awake in bed stuck in fight-or-flight mode), but they have been few enough that I'm planning to continue to plow through with the 10% cuts every month for now. It feels great to be making progress, but I still feel discouraged when I look at my tapering plan. I just want to be done with this, but I still have so many months to go.  

 

One thing I've noticed is that I'm having some short crying spells on almost a daily basis lately. My brain seems to be going back to process some grief that it wasn't able to process over the last couple of decades. It actually feels really good to be able to cry and process these things after so many years of numb emotions. 

[Mamgu]

Yey, great news that you feel ready to start tapering again!  It's so good to make some progress, even though it's small steps, it's still in the right direction 🙂

 

Interesting observation about the crying spells, I can relate to that.  I hope you're OK and not overwhelmed by it.  Another small step towards healing.

 

 

[SilverLinings]

Thanks so much for your note, @Mamgu! This is certainly a journey and not a race, isn't it. I'm hanging in there. Hope you're doing well.