gdouglas7: My story is probably not a typical one

[gdouglas7]

I want to start this off by saying I stumbled onto this website as i'm currently tapering off Tranylcypromine (Parnate) and Pramipexole.

 

However, a background first:

 

Currently 32 yo. Onset of what has been diagnosed as OCD, MDD, and GAD started in April 2021. One day I was fine, the next day I was not. I had a routine hernia repair. Had basically the same procedure a year prior with no issues. Report shows everything was normal. I was not given these three meds for my surgery in 2020, but I was in 2021: Hydromorphone, Metoclopramide, Meperidine. 

Symptoms have been many, but the worst of which have been mental. Homicidal and suicidal thoughts, depression/dysphoria, monophobia, fear all the time about nothing in particular (paralyzing), feeling of being trapped in my own mind, anhedonia, psychomotor retardation, hypomania features (which have actually been nice compared to everything else), DPDR, and so on. Mind you, not a single one of these prior to that day after surgery.

 

I have had many theories as to what caused it, but only recently did i actually look at those differences in meds given, and believe metoclopramide was probably the culprit. A quick stroll here will give you an idea: https://www.drugs.com/comments/metoclopramide/

 

Anyways my life has been a living hell since then. I won't get into everything unless requested because it is long, but not a single treatment has worked for me, though MAOI's have given me some small relief. On them, especially Parnate, I just seem to cycle though between horrible and a little bit better (nowhere near baseline prior to all of this). The intrusive thoughts seem to remain no matter what. 

 

As you can see in my signature I have tried tons of treatments. TMS isn't included in there, but I did 36 sessions of that. At the moment i'm trying to titrate off of parnate so I can try tramadol (best reviews of everything on drugs.com for depression, given at least 50 reviews), and if that doesn't work, probably ect.

 

Going to the present, if anyone has any specific suggestions for how to get off of Parnate and pramipexole i'm all ears. Otherwise I will try some of the calculators and resources on this site.

 

Here is a recent snapshot: 

 

Parnate - 

• 7/18/23: 90-mg

• 7/22/23: 80mg

• 7/27/23: 70mg

• 8/2/23: 60mg

• 8/7/23: 50mg

• 8/12/23: 40mg

• 8/17/23: 20mg

• 8/18/23: 10mgT

• 8/19/23: 30mg

• 8/20/23: 40mg

• 8/22/23: 50mg

• 9/22/23: 40mg

• 10/7/23: 30mg

• 10/14/23: 20mg

 

Pram - 

• 9/4/23: 0.75mg

• 9/10/23: 0.875mg

• 9/17/23: 1.0mg

• 9/19/23: 0.875mg

• 9/24/23: 0.75mg

• 10/11/23: 0.50mg

 

Thanks and good luck to you all with whatever your own personal challenges are.

 

 

 

[Onmyway]

Hi @gdouglas7

I am so sorry you have been dealing with such horrible drug drug effects. We see this often here - people have severe reactions to a single dose of a drug and their symptoms are similar to that of withdrawal.  Our observation here is that as long as these people let their brain come back to normal on its own,  recovery happens, albeit slowly,  similar to withdrawal.  

 

Your trials of many other drugs and treatments have likely exacerbated things.  ECT can permanently disable you.

 

@gdouglas7, we don't assist people in switching to different drugs or optimising drug cocktails.  You'll have to do that on your own and with your doctors.  If and when you're ready to come off of your drugs we can help you do that in the least harmful way. 

 

In the meantime,  please have a look at the Tapering forum to learn more about the 10% rate of Tapering we recommend.

 

 

Omw

[Altostrata]

Hello, @gdouglas7

 

We have many people here whose careers as psychiatric patients started when they had an adverse reaction to a drug used in surgery or some other treatment.

 

Very often, if they minimize their drug burden and stop trying miracle drugs, these symptoms gradually settle down. 

 

On 10/18/2023 at 11:27 AM, gdouglas7 said:

At the moment i'm trying to titrate off of parnate so I can try tramadol (best reviews of everything on drugs.com for depression, given at least 50 reviews), and if that doesn't work, probably ect.

 

We don't treat depression here, we help people minimize their drug burdens. 

 

If you're getting withdrawal symptoms while reducing your drugs, you're reducing too fast, and continuing to reduce will compound the withdrawal symptoms.

 

FYI 

 

[gdouglas7]

12 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Hello, @gdouglas7

 

We have many people here whose careers as psychiatric patients started when they had an adverse reaction to a drug used in surgery or some other treatment.

 

Very often, if they minimize their drug burden and stop trying miracle drugs, these symptoms gradually settle down. 

 

 

We don't treat depression here, we help people minimize their drug burdens. 

 

If you're getting withdrawal symptoms while reducing your drugs, you're reducing too fast, and continuing to reduce will compound the withdrawal symptoms.

 

FYI 

 

I get ti

 

13 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Hello, @gdouglas7

 

We have many people here whose careers as psychiatric patients started when they had an adverse reaction to a drug used in surgery or some other treatment.

 

Very often, if they minimize their drug burden and stop trying miracle drugs, these symptoms gradually settle down. 

 

 

We don't treat depression here, we help people minimize their drug burdens. 

 

If you're getting withdrawal symptoms while reducing your drugs, you're reducing too fast, and continuing to reduce will compound the withdrawal symptoms.

 

FYI 

 

For the first month and a half I tried nothing and there was zero change. Later on down the road I went another month or so trying nothing. Trying nothing doesn't feel like an option. It's sitting around in misery (putting it very lightly) every single day blindly hoping that the body will correct itself. I'm sure the common belief here is that is the right thing to do. In medical circle jerk circles it's probably the wrong thing to do. There is no universal right or wrong. Only what seems to make the most sense for the individual.

 

I know you don't treat depression.. nobody does. I came here for advice and information about tapering, and figured it wouldn't hurt to share my story. Perhaps it's not unique, but every practitioner and non practitioner i've told my story to has never heard such a thing. 

 

Thank you tho for your reply. You have contributed a great deal of solid information from what I can see on this site, and the advice around tapering is invaluable.

[Altostrata]

Your first post shows you made 3 drug reductions in October. All of those reductions were linear, each a greater proportion of the preceding dose.

 

If you are having withdrawal symptoms, it's likely because you are tapering too fast and maybe on top of other withdrawal symptoms. Generally when people continue to do this, they end up with withdrawal symptoms. Sorry you're in this mess with millions of other people.

 

For all I know, you might find tramadol, a drug with a notorious withdrawal syndrome, to be the miracle drug at the end of your rainbow, and maybe ECT, too. Maybe you'll be fine. Good luck.

[Onmyway]

51 minutes ago, gdouglas7 said:

For the first month and a half I tried nothing and there was zero change. Later on down the road I went another month or so trying nothing. Trying nothing doesn't feel like an option. It's sitting around in misery (putting it very lightly) every single day blindly hoping that the body will correct itself.

In our experience it takes months of holding and not making drug changes to see subtle symptom changes. Sometimes it takes more than that. But we have found waiting to be the only thing to work. In the end it is your life so we can't tell you what to do, just share our experience.

 

Before you do ECT, do you have any evidence that it works for the type of issue that you have, whatever it is classified as? Because from what I see your symptoms are not consistent with depression - you have mania, DPDR, etc etc. Even the evidence for ECT for depression is thin and the long term side effects can be life-altering and irreversible. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21322506/

 

You have seen reviews of tramadol for depression but did you see reviews of Tramadol for your affliction which is something entirely different? 

 

Hope this turns out well for you. 

OMW

[gdouglas7]

On 10/20/2023 at 8:18 PM, Altostrata said:

Your first post shows you made 3 drug reductions in October. All of those reductions were linear, each a greater proportion of the preceding dose.

 

If you are having withdrawal symptoms, it's likely because you are tapering too fast and maybe on top of other withdrawal symptoms. Generally when people continue to do this, they end up with withdrawal symptoms. Sorry you're in this mess with millions of other people.

 

For all I know, you might find tramadol, a drug with a notorious withdrawal syndrome, to be the miracle drug at the end of your rainbow, and maybe ECT, too. Maybe you'll be fine. Good luck.

I apologize if I came off rude and/or unclear with anything. I guess I just wanted to emphasize that while my symptoms may not be different from others (after all there are only so many symptoms humans can experience), it's onset seems to be. If I understand correctly, your onset was clear cut. You were prescribed an SSRI, developed several "psychiatric" symptoms, and then the withdrawal period became chronic instead of acute. Your etiology seems to be without many confounding variables. 

 

Mine has never seemed to be clear cut. One day I had no psychiatric symptoms, the next I had too many to count. This was after virtually the same surgery I had a year prior. There just isn't a clear etiology.

[gdouglas7]

On 10/20/2023 at 8:32 PM, Onmyway said:

In our experience it takes months of holding and not making drug changes to see subtle symptom changes. Sometimes it takes more than that. But we have found waiting to be the only thing to work. In the end it is your life so we can't tell you what to do, just share our experience.

 

Before you do ECT, do you have any evidence that it works for the type of issue that you have, whatever it is classified as? Because from what I see your symptoms are not consistent with depression - you have mania, DPDR, etc etc. Even the evidence for ECT for depression is thin and the long term side effects can be life-altering and irreversible. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21322506/

 

You have seen reviews of tramadol for depression but did you see reviews of Tramadol for your affliction which is something entirely different? 

 

Hope this turns out well for you. 

OMW

I understand that. I've read plenty of anecdotes from people who just gave it time and took nothing and were successful with that approach, and then others who are 8, 12, 24 months out or longer who haven't taken anything and they just continue to suffer everyday. 

 

Regardless, any experience that you share is welcomed. I also appreciate the way you have shared it, which hasn't felt pushy in any way. 

 

The problem with both symptoms and treatments with anything psychiatric is there are so few tests for them. Unless you have a tumor, thyroid problems, etc, there is just a monumental lack of testing and imaging for anything to do with psychiatric symptoms. So I see ECT as trying to use an extreme treatment to try to correct something extreme that happened to me. I can absolutely see the fallacy in that thinking, but also the logic. The PTSD I've had over the last two years from all of this is indescribable. Additionally, idk if you're a movie person or not, and I know I wouldn't be able to choose which memory issues I'd get from ECT, but even if half my life got erased, but my psychiatric stuff went poof, i'd be ok with that. Iike "K" in "Men in Black" when he tells "J" about how getting eaten by an intergalactic cockroach is one of a thousand memories he doesn't want, i'd be ok if good and bad got erased. It's hard for me to remember a lot of good these days as it is. I know that's also the "best case scenario", and i'm aware of the worst case too from many stories i've read. 

 

I'm also still not sure exactly what my affliction is as its etiology and presentation have so many variables. The symptoms do seem to overlap the most with people who have MDD, GAD, and OCD, which is what I have been diagnosed with. But it is a fair point regarding the tramadol. 

 

Also might as well give the the short version. I am interested in the tramadol because when I was given metoclopramide (which I believe has the strongest possibility of being the culprit or the main catalyst for all of my crap) I was given meperidine shortly thereafter, which seemed to temporarily for several hours make me feel like my normal. Then when that wore off, I was back to the **** storm. So i've tried to look for something similar to meperidine in mechanism of action, potency, half life, etc, and tramadol has been the closest.

[Altostrata]

1) You might have had an adverse reaction to a drug in 2021. 

 

2) You and your doctor decided to treat this adverse reaction with every psychiatric drug and treatment you could think of.

 

3) None of those treatments helped.

 

4) You're currently tapering pramipexole and Parnate. You've been taking Parnate for a year. Even though Parnate wasn't helpful to you, this puts you at higher risk for withdrawal symptoms from Parnate than pramipexole, though you are at risk for withdrawal from pramipexole too.

 

5) Despite our having seen hundreds of cases of bizarre polypharmacy pass through this site, you insist the rules don't apply to you. You are sui generis.

 

Feel free to taper however you want and take whatever drugs or treatments you want.

[gdouglas7]

5 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

1) You might have had an adverse reaction to a drug in 2021. 

 

2) You and your doctor decided to treat this adverse reaction with every psychiatric drug and treatment you could think of.

 

3) None of those treatments helped.

 

4) You're currently tapering pramipexole and Parnate. You've been taking Parnate for a year. Even though Parnate wasn't helpful to you, this puts you at higher risk for withdrawal symptoms from Parnate than pramipexole, though you are at risk for withdrawal from pramipexole too.

 

5) Despite our having seen hundreds of cases of bizarre polypharmacy pass through this site, you insist the rules don't apply to you. You are sui generis.

 

Feel free to taper however you want and take whatever drugs or treatments you want.

1) "might". I agree. It very well could be an adverse drug reaction.

2) Numerous healthcare practioners*. 

3) Parnate and Nardil both have helped, but not consistently and not enough.

4) Definitely have had withdrawal symptoms already from both.

5) I'm not sure which rules you're referencing specifically, but when you are told a million times that you are unique, and your case is unique, then you do feel pretty sui generis. 

 

I can tell you are very intelligent. So if you do want to explore my case further, I'd be more than happy to share any and all details with you.

 

In the meantime I am using a lot of helpful information found on this site, and I believe you are one of its creators. So, regardless should you elect to explore, I do sincerely thank you already. 

 

 

[Onmyway]

Hi @gdouglas7

I'm not sure what you expect from us to "explore your case".  Your case is not unique on our site despite you thinking it is. There are at least 4 members who have suffered much worse reactions to metoclopromide. How you get all these "mental health conditions" is clear. Search for the drug name on the site. 

 

We've already told you our opinion and you seem intent on not believing it.  It's your prerogative but why would we then continue to explore further. What do we gain from arguing with you?

 

You don't think our opinion is as valid as we're not health care professionals which is fine, we don't pretend to be. But what then would be our incentive to engage.  We know the answer. You just don't want to hear it because you're intent on continuing on your chosen path. 

 

You've trusted the HC professionals, they've not helped you in two years and have basically treated you no better than a lab rat, taken your money and gone on their merry way. If you allow them, they'll continue to do the same. And you will likely get worse.  ECT can damage more than memories, it can damage the formation of new memories as well, can damage physical functioning. 

 

None of us is disputing that you're suffering,  but you're not unique in that either. We've all been through what you're describing,  some of us for over a decade. 

 

Hope you find healing

Omw

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Onmyway

[Altostrata]

@gdouglas7 you're welcome. Around here, an adverse drug reaction triggering a psychiatric drug prescribing cascade is not unusual, the prescribers being absolutely clueless is the rule.

 

We've told you that further tapering is likely to compound your withdrawal symptoms. You cannot imagine how much worse they can get. The rest is up to you.

[gdouglas7]

1 hour ago, Onmyway said:

Hi @gdouglas7

I'm not sure what you expect from us to "explore your case".  Your case is not unique on our site despite you thinking it is. There are at least 4 members who have suffered much worse reactions to metoclopromide. How you get all these "mental health conditions" is clear. Search for the drug name on the site. 

 

We've already told you our opinion and you seem intent on not believing it.  It's your prerogative but why would we then continue to explore further. What do we gain from arguing with you?

 

You don't think our opinion is as valid as we're not health care professionals which is fine, we don't pretend to be. But what then would be our incentive to engage.  We know the answer. You just don't want to hear it because you're intent on continuing on your chosen path. 

 

You've trusted the HC professionals, they've not helped you in two years and have basically treated you no better than a lab rat, taken your money and gone on their merry way. If you allow them, they'll continue to do the same. And you will likely get worse.  ECT can damage more than memories, it can damage the formation of new memories as well, can damage physical functioning. 

 

None of us is disputing that you're suffering,  but you're not unique in that either. We've all been through what you're describing,  some of us for over a decade. 

 

Hope you find healing

Omw

 

Not trying to argue with anyone. Not trying to dismiss anyone. Not trying to say you aren't health care professionals so your opinions aren't valid. Most healthcare professionals have a horrible god complex tbh which makes me dismiss their opinion.

 

I have spoken to one of those 4 members that you suggest, and while I wouldn't deny she has it horribly, i'm not sure about comparing any one person's suffering to another person's.

 

I don't have a chosen path. I am just trying my best to educate myself as much as possible on what may have happened and if there are any treatments available besides waiting around and hoping that my brain fixes itself. That member has done that for almost a year, and has had no relief whatsoever. 

 

 

Again i'm not trying to be obtuse, minimize, patronize, or make it sound like my suffering is special or worse in any way. I'm simply doing my best first and foremost to just survive everyday, and in the meantime, when i'm able, to try to find treatments for what i'm experiencing. 

 

Thank you for your well wishes and also for helping many thousands of people, including me, with education, suggestions, and advice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Onmyway]

Hi @gdouglas7

 

it is hard for me to see people harmed by medicines who then become desperate and try to fix things only to make things worse. It broke my heart that you may even consider ECT which can have devastating effects on the body and the mind. I understand your desperation. I am not dismissing how much you are suffering but trust me, it can get worse and it is in your hands to not make it worse. 

 

Once our nervous system is destabilized by an adverse reaction or withdrawal, we tend to become hypersensitive to lots of things - light, noise, supplements, drugs and especially new psychotropic drugs, alcohol and street drugs. We see this hundreds of times. We see someone have a set back even years after starting to feel normal just by drinking alcohol. 

 

I made my withdrawal worse by taking clonazepam to treat insomnia in the beginning - I didn't know any better. I got a reaction (early on) to an eye antibiotic. I had (and occasionally still have) reactions to noise. I do not react the same way to the same medicines as I did before - xanax used to calm me down pretty well with very occasional use. Now it makes me nauseous and depressed. It seems like something about our brains changes when things get destabilized by WD or ADR. We don't know why, but we know what makes it worse.

 

We also know that the brain is plastic. That means that the brain changes constantly and can get itself back to homeostasis once things go wrong.  Have you ever read the book "The Brain That Changes Itself"?  Most untreated depression gets better within 6 months. And we have tools to make those positive plastic changes. It is not just to wait. There are a number of tools available - gentle exercise, yoga,  meditation, breathing, community, music, Claire Weekes' methods, sleep hygiene. People who apply these consistently tend to see benefits. But they need to be applied with together and consistently, not haphazardly. Changing the brain and helping it heal is no small task. 

 

Exercise is able to dilute my emotional spirals, better sleep (blackout curtains, ear plugs) allows me to deal with stress better the next day. Acceptance shifts my experience, and as a result, my symptoms. This instinct to fight and change keeps your brain in fight mode and what would likely help is to accept and get that activation down. 

 

So for you to contemplate to potentially hurt yourself worse is hard to watch. And most times when someone says they want to go a different way than the advice we have given, we see them back a few months later saying how much worse it got. It took Alto about 11 years to fully recover. I am in year 5 after reinstatement and tapering but have to tell you my current symptoms wax and wane and are usually nowhere near the horror of the first 4-5 months. I have stopped tapering and not made changes for months and months when my symptoms have gotten worse. Or when I got Covid, or when I needed surgery and so on. 

 

Here is one of my favorite posts on SA: 

And my second favorite post: 

OMW

 

[gdouglas7]

@Onmyway I appreciate all of your replies and communication, as well as your concern about ECT. Believe me, I've been considering it for a long time and still haven't done it. Desperate times as they say..

 

I haven't ever read that, but I have read a number of articles about the plasticity of the brain.

 

I do appreciate you sharing those posts. The first one in particular was incredibly informative. I realize that there is much crossover between adverse reactions and withdrawal, but do you happen to have any favorite posts that are similar in nature, but specifically address and discuss adverse reactions?

[Onmyway]

@gdouglas7, you can search the site - best way to search. Go to Google and type search term: www.survivingantidepressants.org

 

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

@gdouglas7 Please browse the Symptoms and Self-Care forum.

 

We provide peer support for tapering psychiatric drugs and withdrawal syndrome. Arguing someone out of ECT is not in our mission.

 

You have a long history of pursuing psychiatric interventions for what appears to be iatrogenic conditions, with poor results. While an adverse reaction may appear to have psychiatric consequences, it is not a psychiatric disorder, it is physiological disruption caused by treatment. Psychiatric treatments, including ECT, are intended to treat psychiatric disorders (with varying and often questionable success). Expecting a psychiatric treatment to correct a physiological disorder is called a category error. You are looking in the wrong place for treatment.

 

That your psychiatrists cannot distinguish an iatrogenic physiological problem from a psychiatric disorder should tell you something. This site exists because doctors cannot distinguish a withdrawal reaction from "relapse" or anything else, with lots of examples of unrecognized adverse drug reactions as well.

 

Doctors' lack of knowledge about iatrogenesis is alarming. But it's not our mission to convince you of this, either, you should be able to see this from your own experience. Since you have been informed about adverse drug reactions and tapering, we've done all we can do as peer support.

[WeLiveInHope]

Dear @gdouglas7

 

I sense your desperation from your posts, and desperation is something I have commented on elsewhere on the site today. 
 

Here’s the thing, as has already been mentioned, your experience is not unique. In fact, it parallels so many if not all members experiences to some degree. I do not wish to wound you with my words on this, but I simply hope you can reflect that you’ve been told you are unique as the medical professionals have no idea what to do with your care. It’s a type of gaslighting. One which psych professionals are especially good at. 
 

Here’s the other thing, as has already been mentioned, this site exists to support people come off safely from psychotropics. This includes not advocating other drugs or treatments that have a long history of harm, ECT being one of them.
 

I myself still take some drugs (sleeping tablets and benzodiazepine) which are not recommended during withdrawal. I do not want to complicate things and describe why this may be and why it may be OK to continue to use some drugs during withdrawal. It’s evident from searches from the site if you care to spend the time enough. I share this because I sense you need to understand that as members we can coexist with peer support to taper and make decisions on what we wish to risk without entering debates about it, or trying to convince/persuade people that your way is the right way, let alone with the same people who have a wealth of knowledge, and quite simply love even, to have created this site and support people when the medical professionals that have created this mess, along with big pharma, and their funders (including governments) have not only let them down, but harmed them. You are one of those harmed. The sooner you identify with that, the better I think.

 

We all know your desperation. We have been there, or are there now, and are constantly moving between the two states. I appreciate your fears/concerns about people on holds and still suffering years later. And, I also understand the need to do something with quick results, even to the point where your desperation deludes you into thinking the potential harm outweighs the good. It does not. 
 

I have described my history in my introduction post. And, I encourage you to read it and other members introductions as well as success stories. Recovery is slow. The sooner you accept that, the better too.
 

I sense you can not be 100% convinced on ECT either. If you was, you would not be here seeking opinions/input on your experiences, or waste precious energy arguing about it. 
 

Do yourself a kindness and read up on iatrogenic harm and trauma. That’s what you are trying to cope with. You are hurt and you re trying to find a way to heal. You have found this site, that’s a good start at last. Now let yourself take the same leap of faith with withdrawal as you seem to with more harmful treatments. 

 

Once again, I want to emphasise my words are not intended to wound you. It is simple to encourage you think again. Face it: it’s part of what brought you here. You are not convinced ECT is the answer. That’s a dangerous place to make decisions from over something that causes incredible often untold harm.
 

Best of care. 

[PortugueseSea]

On 10/23/2023 at 6:55 AM, Onmyway said:

I'm not sure what you expect from us to "explore your case".  Your case is not unique on our site despite you thinking it is. There are at least 4 members who have suffered much worse reactions to metoclopramide. How you get all these "mental health conditions" is clear. Search for the drug name on the site. 

I am one of them. The only reason you have been told you are ”unique" is because misdiagnosis is the norm.

From what I have read of your background, metoclopramide is most likely the culprit. You should follow the admins advice very carefully. 
It is very important to remember that while the drug is categorized as an anti-emetic, it is a failed anti-psychotic.

Believe me, you do not want to disturb your nervous system even further.

Check the quote from Alto below;

[PortugueseSea]

On 10/24/2023 at 4:43 AM, Altostrata said:

You have a long history of pursuing psychiatric interventions for what appears to be iatrogenic conditions, with poor results. While an adverse reaction may appear to have psychiatric consequences, it is not a psychiatric disorder, it is physiological disruption caused by treatment. Psychiatric treatments, including ECT, are intended to treat psychiatric disorders (with varying and often questionable success). Expecting a psychiatric treatment to correct a physiological disorder is called a category error. You are looking in the wrong place for treatment.