poppy: Venlafaxine withdrawal

[poppy]

 Thank you all for replying.  I will sort out my history and try to post it.  When I posted under Keep Crying under my name there it said 1 warning point.  That's ok if it is a mistake but I was a bit upset because as far as I know I hadn't done anything wrong.

 

Thanks for your time.

[KarenB]

I understand - I'd be upset about something like that too.  It must have been an error - but I can't find anything about it.  It's the last thing you need when you are already having such a hard time.  I hope that you feel really welcome here - because you are .

 

How are things today?

[poppy]

Sorry haven't replied earlier but I have been at my daughters for a few days.  Things are still hard, and I yes I do feel welcome here.  I will sort out my history.

I wish I didn't wake up so badly, panicking massively.  After a bad wakening today I went out with my daughter and grandsons and had quite a good time.

[poppy]

Hi, I am trying to add my medication history and do not know how to do it, can someone please explain where I go to add it.

Thanks so much.

 

Poppy

[ChessieCat]

INSTRUCTION LINKS:

 

Please put your Withdrawal History in Signature

Complete your Signature from Phone or Tablet

[poppy]

Thanks Chessie Cat, I have now added my drug history.  My husband weighs my capsules for me on the gemini scale.  We are not sure what the increments mean e.g. I have been going down by 2 ? on the scale, we have taken this as 2% drop.  Is this correct as we have been going down by 2s every 2 weeks.  I have had 17 cuts of 2 since Summer 2015, could this be why I am feeling so terrible at the moment, maybe all of them catching up with me.  I thought I would keep at this level and try to even out, I so wish this will happen in time.  I was not feeling depressed until early feb this year when it all got too much.  I dread waking up in the morning.  I have not had a cut since 8th february and my husband thinks that if I was going to get some relief I would have had it by now.  I was thinking maybe it could take months of holding to hopefully feel some relief, I would appreciate views on this.

 

My other worry is that when I feel I can take another cut I was thinking of trying a micro taper, but worry that as I have only been doing a 2% cut every 2 weeks that is a micro taper - I am frightened because where would I go from there.

[KarenB]

The scales give gram or milligram amounts.  This is different to a percentage.  I think I need Brassmonkey and his math's wand - I can't explain how you work it out, because I usually get my husband to do that...  I'll PM brass and ask.

 

It's looking like you've had a lot of ups and downs in dosage lately, which won't be helping you stabilise.  Each change in dose makes it take longer.

 

So don't panic yet...

Karen

[Fresh]

Hi poppy , please can you write out the last few dosages you have been on , so I can see what you mean by

"17 cuts of 2".

 

From your sig. it looks like you started tapering from 37.5mg.

Have you been decreasing by 2mg x 17?

 

Brass is probably sleeping , but will see the message in the morning.

No need to panic.

[poppy]

Thanks Karen and Fresh for replying.  Sorry I am being so confusing but we don't really understand it ourselves and I am trying to explain that ...... ugh

Anyway I started with a 75mg capsule because that's as low as I can get here in the uk, so what we did was he averaged the weight, not the amount of balls in the capsule, and that was 390 so he halved that to 195 to make a 37.5 capsule to start with.  I at first took 10 off that total and that was too much.

My list looks like this 176,173,170,168,166,164,162,160,158,156, 154. 152. 148. 146, 144, 142now.  Does it make sense, it is a weight of 2 off the previous number, not 2 balls.  Hope it makes sense as I know what I am trying to say but having trouble explaining.  My husband says he thinks it doesn't even work out to 2% drops.

That makes me feel worried more as I think then where do I go from here if that little bit causes so much hurt.

 

Thanks again for trying to help I really do appreciate it.

 

I am also still taking 50mg clomipramine that the gp gave me to bridge the venlafaxine but I haven't been able to stop that and continue on the clomipramine.  My GP wants me to take half of the dose of venlafaxine for 1 week and then stop altogether, I wont do this though.

[Fresh]

Okay , this is good.

The thing that stands out is that you've decreased every 2 weeks for 34 weeks , right? Every now and then we need a big long hold to allow our brain to consolidate all the changes , and recover.

All the little cuts have added up.

I prescribe a "tapering holiday" for at least 6 to 8 weeks. You'll feel much stronger for it.

 

Mathsmonkey / brassmonkey will most likely stop by tomorrow. In the meantime , don't stress , it's going to get better.

 

[brassmonkey]

Hi poppy and DH (dear husband)  I'll try to sort out this monkey business.

 

The scales we use measure in milligrams (0.001) so be decreasing the number on the scale readout by 2 would mean you are reducing the weight of the dose by 2mg.  This does not mean that you are reducing the amount of drug that you're taking by 2mg or by 2%.

 

The pills you are using contain 75mgai of drug or active ingredient and enough filler to make them weigh 390mgpw (pill weight).  That makes the contents easier to handle for manufacturing.  It also means that every 1mgai actually weight 5.2mgpw.

 

Wave the mathmonkey wand at it and you get 0.38mgai for every 2mgpw

 

Wave the mathmonkey wand again and it tells you that this is 0.5%

 

So you've been making 0.5% cuts every two weeks.

 

This is where it starts to get tricks.  Those cuts are a percentage of the original dose, which means that they are all the same size.  The way we recommend it is to take a percentage of the previous dose.  Which makes it so each time you decrease it's by a slightly smaller amount.  That little difference adds up over time so after 17 reductions you'd be removing a lot more than is recommended.  This sliding scale makes it a lot easier on the brain/body to adapt to each reduction.

 

On the face of it reducing .5% every 2 weeks sounds very conservative.  However, there is the factor that it takes a minimum of four days for each dose change to stabilize and once the symptoms show up after that point it usually take a couple of weeks for them to resolve themselves, it means that the symptoms are being compounded with each successive drop.  They then keep adding up until one day they explode on the scene and things get really uncomfortable.  And once that happens it can take a while for things to restabilize.  It hasn't been quite 2 months yet since you started holding, so you are just now getting into the time frame where that will happen.  Thing happen in an agonizingly slow manner with this stuff, but it does happen. 

 

If the symptoms are being unbearable a small updose might bring some relief.  People hate to think that they are losing ground, but sometimes backtracking a bit is worth it to stop the suffering.  If you want to try it I would only add back in the last 2mgpw that you decreased, I think that would be 144mgpw from you list above.  Give that a week to settle in and see if it helps.

 

I hope that helps explain things, and I truly hope you feel better soon.

[KarenB]

Thanks Brass - and Fresh - for the maths help .  I'd like to know where to buy one of those math's wands for myself...

 

Poppy - don't be too worried about the future of your taper.  A good hold is likely to help a lot, as Fresh said.  I have some of the same issues going on with my own taper - I'm at a high dose still, but am extremely sensitive to changes.  You are probably somewhere in the middle of the extremes, which is an okay place to be. 

[poppy]

Thank you so much Fresh, Karen and Brassmonkey for all your replies.  It is so good to know people really care and understand.  Brassmonkey thanks so much for all your words, its all a bit confusing but I think I get the idea.  My husband said he will have a look at your message too and we can both understand it.

Hope you all have a stressless weekend and thank you all again.

 

Kindest regards,

Poppy

[brassmonkey]

If there're still questions please ask. 

[poppy]

Hi Brassmonkey,

 

I have been worrying about what we are taking out of the capsules.  Does this mean then in theory we could be taking out active balls and leaving just filler.  My husband said should we be discarding the small balls and only leaving the larger balls.  It all becomes more complicated when you open up capsules I fear.  My GP says you should never do this but of course has no answer to what you could do.  In fact he doesn't even believe there are any problems with antidepressants, just tranx.  Hope this all makes sense, I just wonder if by adjusting them ourselves is why some days are quite bearable, like Saturday I was far from myself but I took two of my grandchildren out to the seaside and lunch all day on my own.  Today I feel I am panicking and now late afternoon I could cry for England.  Or is it just how it is.  

[SquirrellyGirl]

Hi poppy, all the balls contain active ingredient and filler, constructed such that the AIR is time released. My brand Teva has mostly large balls with a few smaller ones and some tiny ones. I select all large balls and then use the medium and tiny ones to achieve the exact weight.

 

Something else to consider:the Gemini scale can be fussy and give sizeable differences from day to day. Here's what I recommend:

 

1) weigh two weeks worth at a time, using empty gel capzbibbs to put the dosages in

2) calibrate the scale at the beginning of every session.

3) place a 10g weight on the weigh pan and leave it there while weighing beads. If the weight changes from 10.000 between weighing beads, recalibrate the scale.

 

It's a pain, but will eliminate any unknown variability between doses.

 

I agree with brass on perhaps updosing to the previous dose you were on.

 

SG

[brassmonkey]

Hey poppy--  SG covered it. All the balls are made of the same stuff, a combination of active ingredient and filler.  The only difference between them is the weight.  Doctors don't want us to open the capsules because they don't trust us.  There are too many people out there who "play" with their drugs and cause themselves no end of harm.  We are adjusting dosage in a slow methodical manner based on a large body of experience, which is different.

 

There are going to be daily fluxuations  in your symptoms. It  has more to do with the healing that is taking place than the minute differences in dose. I'm so glad you were able to get to the seaside for a day, it sounds like it was a lovely outing.

[poppy]

Hi Squirelley girl and brassmonkey, thank you so much for getting back so quickly and answering my question about the balls, this makes sense and makes me feel a little better.  It is so good to have this site where people know what you are talking about and your problems.  i would love to have a support group to attend but there is nothing remotely near me here in London.  It is fantastic though to be able to come on here and get the support, there really are some lovely people here.

Thank you all so much.

 

Poppy

[ChessieCat]

Hi Poppy,

 

I think these might help you to understand the fluctuations in your symptoms:

 

Brain Remodelling

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

You might find these helpful too:

 

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?

 

What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

[poppy]

Thanks Chessiecat,this was really interesting.

 

Kindest regards, Poppy 

[poppy]

Hi Brassmonkey,

Sorry to bother you again but you said earlier that as I am just coming up to 2 months since I started holding I am not in the time for starting to stabilise.  Why is that, why does it take time to start.  Am I being unreasonable to hope it starts to stabilise.

 

Best wishes, Poppy

[brassmonkey]

Sorry poppy that was a typo on my part it should be "just now". 

 

From what we have seen here many reinstatements start to really kick in during the two to three month time frame.  You are just passing the two month mark so things should start to settle out pretty soon.  There has been healing happening the entire time since you started your hold, but it can take this long for the body to realize what is going on. 

[poppy]

Hi Brassmonkey,

Sorry, I don't understand when you say reinstatements kick in on a 2 to 3 month timeframe as I had not made a reinstatement but it is 8 weeks since my last drop.  I keep re reading your last post to me about it taking time to start to stabilise as it makes me feel hopeful.

 

Kindest regards,

Poppy

.

[brassmonkey]

It's the drugs poppy, it's the drugs. lol

 

I totally lost the thread of our conversation and apologize for any confusion or misunderstanding I've caused.

 

What I've been trying to say is yes, the statement in you post #117;  " I have had 17 cuts of 2 since Summer 2015, could this be why I am feeling so terrible at the moment, maybe all of them catching up with me."     is correct.

 

Making drops too quickly causes the symptoms to pile up on top of each other.  Once the pile of symptoms show up it can take several months for them to resolve.  You're two months into that with your hold, so things should be starting to improve.

 

Brass

[poppy]

Hi anyone listening,

My husband weighs out my capsules for me and I am on 0.093 gms (`142) and we are having dreadful trouble weighing them the same.  We weigh out the correct amount then reweigh at least a couple of times and the scale goes all over the place, one minute it is 142, then 150, etc.  I am still having a terrible time and am so worried that each day the capsules might be different.  How do other people manage to weigh their capsules as correct as is possible.  My husband and I are having so many arguments because he feels I am blaming him for the difference and I have been trying to explain I trust him its just I don't think he realises how much difference the little difference could make.

 

So what I am asking is how can we make the weighing as accurate as possible, we try to keep the table still and re weigh but there still seems to be an inaccuracy.  I have the gemini scale

 

I would count them out instead but because the balls are different sizes I worry that also would cause an inaccuracy. What do you feel about counting them instead of weighing.

[ladybug]

When is the last time you changed the batteries? When my scale is acting up, changing the batteries usually helps. I make sure to use good lithium batteries made for digital devices as well.

 

Always make sure you are weighing on a very solid, very flat surface. The scale is quite sensitive and even slight breezes can affect the reading so make sure to turn off any fans/AC/heaters while weighing. You also want to weigh with the calibration weight on the pan. After calibrating I place the 10g weight on the pan, instead of pressing tare to zero the scale I just put my pill pieces on and of course everything over 10 g is the actual weight. I do this so that between weighing doses I can see if the scale is still reading the weight as 10g. If it's not I recalibrate. If it consistently weighs .001g over or under then I just adjust the dose I'm shooting for. For example if my scale keeps reading 10.001g and I am shooting for a weight of .088g then I will adjust it and shoot for .089g which takes into account the scale inconsistency.

 

If all this fails and the scale is still significantly off I just order another one since they are pretty cheap. I have 5 now I think! Hope this helps.

[SquirrellyGirl]

I love ladybug's reply and agree with everything she wrote!  If your scale is new, and despite all ladybug's tips you still have a lot of drift between doses, then I would contact the seller and see about getting replacement; it could just be a defective scale.  And indeed, they are inexpensive.  I've been tempted to order another one but then mine will calm down and behave :-)

 

So, 142 mg is the gross weight you are aiming for?  And he is weighing a bunch of doses during one weighing session?  Believe me, it can be a trying experience because I also will reweigh doses a few times before accepting it as good.  I swear it has taken 45 minutes to weigh 14 doses!

 

SG

[poppy]

Thanks Ladybug and Squirelleygirl for replying.  I am thinking of doing the measuring myself as my husband seems to think I am blaming him and I certainly am not, but he is doing his best and it must seem like I am.  I will try all you said.  Thanks so much

[poppy]

Hi,

 

I haven't been on here for a while.  I stopped the venlafaxine 4 months ago and for 3 of the months I coped but the last month has been hell on earth.  I was taking then 70% of a 37.5mg capsule, balls.  I was also taking another antidepressant that my GP put me on to try to get off the venlafaxine but it didnt work.  I stopped them both together and thought if I got through the initial hell it would ease.  It has got worse to I now dont want to go out at all and am just sitting on the settee most of the day.  I was getting up and at first it was hard then I would have a little gap when it got a little better.  By 11am I start feeling rough again and by 12.00am am feeling really bad.  Lots of panics.  I thought I would never want to take this again and I dont but I cant cope at all.  All I want to do is cry, panic.  I am having no  sleep, I go to bed and sleep for an hour and am then awake for the whole of the night, every night.  Tossing and turning and panicking.

At the moment I feel like I have the flu symptoms again and in the past I used this as a coping technique sort of used it as an excuse to give me confidence, if that makes sense but this does not work now.

 

My question is can I reinstate something, I know it is a long time since I took it and you say it does not always work.  If I can what would I take as I have read that you should not take too much back.

 

Also if I reinstate why does it not do what it has done this time when you start to cut down again and especially after you have finished it again, I don't understand this.  Surely it just does the same.

 

Please help me I cant see any way out of this.]]Thanks so much.

Edited October 11, 2016 by ChessieCat
Bolded what was in capitals

[ChessieCat]

We need some additional information about your drugs before we can offer any suggestions.  Please answer the following questions:

 

What drug/s have you taken since 19 April:

 

drug name?

 

what dose?

 

when? (date/s would be best but if not, just an estimate, eg mid-name of month, or beginning name of month)

 

how long?

 

How did you stop taking these?

 

Could you please tell us what you are currently taking, drug/s and dose?

 

 

When you are able to please update your drug history in your signature.  Instructions:  Please put your Withdrawal History in Signature

[poppy]

Hi Chessiecat,

 

Thanks for replying.  The drug I was on was Venlafaxine.  When I stopped I was taking 70% of a 37.5mg capsule, balls.  I tokk it for a year starting on 225mg and have been cutting down for the last 4 years.  I also took clomipramine for about 6 months to try to get me off the velafaxine.  I stopped both of these at the 70% of the 37.5mg, not sure what the dosage as my husband weighed them out for me, 4 months ago cold turkey.  I thought there would be an initial hell but that things would get better, they havent.

 

Regards,

Poppy

[ChessieCat]

Do you know what dose of clomipramine you were taking?  This information may help the mods to be able to offer suggestions.

 

I'm going to ask the more experienced mods to assess your situation.

[poppy]

Hi sorry I cant remember, it could have been 10mg.

[Altostrata]

poppy, I'm sorry you're feeling so poorly.

 

At this point, your guess is as good as anyone else's if reinstatement of Effexor XR might help. If you try this, try a few beads first to see how it affects you.

 

Please let us know how you're doing.

 

The reason none of this is predictable is that your nervous system adapts and changes to circumstances. It may have become hypersensitive to any psychoactive drugs. Or it may accept a little Effexor and feel better. No one can tell in advance.

[poppy]

Hi Altostrata,

 

What I do not understand is why after 4 months your body does not realise it is not going to get it and adjust back to normal.  I really expected hell initially but hoped that in time I would start to improve.  If anything it has got worse, especially the last month.  I do not want to really reinstate but just want some hope that this will go as every day I just try to get through it, there is no peace.  At the moment I feel as if I have the flu like symptoms again, I have had these many times and the symptoms just keep coming and going, round and round, they never stop.

 

Thanks for replying.

 

Poppy

[poppy]

Hi I posted an entry and got some much appreciated replies but I have posted an answer and wondered how people know it is there just under my name.

 

Thank you.

 

Poppy

Edited October 13, 2016 by scallywag
merged from new intro topic