cmusic: A long history and finally saying enough

[areyouthere]

My 4 year old looked me in the eye today and said he misses me and that we don't spend enough time together. I miss him too.

 

I'm so sorry for this. cmusic, unfortunately I understand this all too well. We do the best we can under the circumstances and never forget that you must take care of yourself in order to be the best you can for your son. You are doing admirably well this way!!!!

 

As far as the benzo..

 

Benzos help in low amounts because the take the edge off the anxiety just enough to relax the vice on my stomach. But I am very wary of taking them in high doses or continuously because I spent 9 months on daily use and by the end of it I was in rebound crisis and the withdrawal was torture.

You are equally as wise to be wary as well then!!! Fool me once shame on you fool me twice..... ? It is a balancing act .... I am doing my own very scary taper from a high dose of a benzo & so I understand.

 

Again , I hope that you recognize that you are handling a very difficult situation and I admire your strength! Wishing you restful times..

 

RU

[Meimeiquest]

My 4 year old looked me in the eye today and said he misses me and that we don't spend enough time together. I miss him too.

 

This is the killer. We adopted our girls from China....they deserve so much better than this...our family is an example of what is trying to be prevented when you jump through the many hoops of adoption preparation. And I was so blinded by the Zyprexa. Yesterday I told my daughter who is 15 how sorry I was that I couldn't do anything with them for spring break (having steady diarrhea since Thur), but that I really believed going off the meds would help me be a better mom. She said, "By the time you're better, E and I won't need a mom."

[cmusic]

I may be asking a question here that goes against my better judgment and the advice of everyone here, but this feels like checkmate. What I mean is that my life is falling apart and I have no way of stopping it. I can either let things fall apart or take something to help with this impossible panic.

 

So my question is - would a few weeks or even months of daily, low dose benzo use physically compromise my serotonin system from recovering? Is it possible to take benzos again for a finite time while the brunt of this SSRI withdrawal passes, and not hinder the recovery? If so I need to consider it and discuss it with my doctor.

 

It's not a good set of options.

[Altostrata]

Where are you with the Lamictal? If it helps, you may not need a benzo.

 

Also, be careful about taking a beta blocker regularly. They have adverse effects and you need to taper off them, too.

[cmusic]

Day 2 of 5mg Lamictal. Haven't noticed anything but may need to give it more time?

 

My doc wants me on a full regimen of Lamictal - 150 - 200. Doesn't seem like there's any reason other than its something to try. I don't want to go there and would take forever to titrate up anyway.

 

Beta blockers were given to help with physical symptoms but I can't say they have done much and if you're telling me those too have dependency I may just chuck them before any damage.

 

Which leaves the one thing that can help in the very short term - benzos. But do you know if this will impede the brain's healing process from the SSRI? Of course would need to watch out for their normal dangers.

[Altostrata]

Give the Lamictal more time, at least a week. Do not jump up to large dosages, go up very gradually. When you feel it helping, stop. More is not better.

 

Women need smaller dosages than men.

 

Yes, beta blockers used daily incur dependency.

 

An occasional benzo will not impede your recovery.

[FeelingAlone]

Hi Cmusic, when I started ny low dose of lamictal it took a week to start feeling a lil better. Now that I've been on it for 3 weeks it is helping me tremendously. My doc also wanted me on a way higher dose, but I'm glad I didn't take the higher dose since its making a difference on a very low dose. Hang in there

 

FA

[cmusic]

Thanks again for the kind words and advice.

[cmusic]

I have gone to 12.5 Lamictal and will stay there for a while. It's been about 5 days so hoping it will help soon. Thanks.

[Altostrata]

Please give each stage a week. It takes about 4 days for the nervous system to register an increase. You want to take just enough for a good effect, don't expect it to set you right immediately.

[cmusic]

Having an awfully tough weekend. Breaking down into tears pretty much all day. Fear unrelenting in mornings and quickly moving to intense depression. Lasts all day.

 

Had a few hours of intense worry about the future and the road I have ahead of me. Not mindful. But it's only been two months, how does a person go through this level of suffering for years and years? I have two small children and a wife I care deeply about and need to be there for. I am barely hanging on.

 

How deep should one let the depression go? If a person is crying hysterically for most of the day, fearing everything, barely eating, how long can that go on? I know it takes years to recover but is there any hope that after a few months the severity of the depression and panic will go down even a little?

 

I don't have the option of reinstatement because of the complicated situation trying since 2010 to get stable on drugs after going off abruptly. I'm trying low dose Lamictal as per Alta's suggestion but it hasn't helped so far. I don't believe I have any other options - my psychiatrist was talking to me about ECT and how much better it's gotten and how I should consider it. I almost walked out. But there are no good options.

 

I force myself to workout through tears. I try to force food down. I can barely hold it together in front of family and others. Even the slightest noise or thought or expectation triggers panic.

 

I have always been able to take a lot of pain and persevere, but at this level of intensity I'm not sure how long I can go. I'm depressed beyond comprehension and I'm starting to feed it with worry about ever getting better and how long it will take, and what could be lost along the way.

 

It would be helpful to at least hear that depression of this magnitude is 'normal' in the acute phase and that it won't remain this severe. How bad has depression gotten for others?

[Altostrata]

I'm sorry, cmusic. We're all in the same position, there are no good options. This is a very difficult realization that many of us have had to deal with, along with the absence of medical help.

 

ECT will not help you recover from withdrawal syndrome.

 

You've only been on the lamotrigine for a week. How much are you taking now?

[cmusic]

It's 12.5 mg. Thanks again for the reply.

[Altostrata]

After a week on 12.5mg, you may wish to go up to 15mg and increase weekly by 2.5mg from there.

[cmusic]

Thanks. Will certainly try. I was up to 50 on the stuff at one point but it was while on Effexor / Prozac that was spinning me out of control - so couldn't even tell what it was doing.

 

I only have 25 mg pills which I'm splitting. Does Lamictal have smaller pills or liquid or something I could titrate in a more exact manner? The best I could do with these is get to quarters which are 6 mg bumps. And they are tiny.

[Altostrata]

See http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1122-tips-for-tapering-off-lamictal-lamotrigine/

[cmusic]

So tonite I crashed. I can't eat and can't stop the depression abd panic. I'm shutting down. I think I need to waive the white flag here.

 

I don't know what to do because SSRI's stopped working for me but it was never this bad. So I go back on a full dose of something. I don't want it to be Prozac because it takes forever to leave your system. Was thinking Zoloft 25mg.

 

I also think the Lamictal low dose I have been on may be making things worse so going to get off that before I become dependent.

 

In the end I just can't keep going like this. I don't have a chance.

[flower]

Music..I don't now if this will help but, I tapered Prozac quickly 1 month. 20mgs. I found myself curled up in a ball crying all the time. The panic

 

and anxiety were nonstop. I did end up in the hospital. They switched me to Zoloft. Detoxed me from ativan and out the door in 2 weeks

 

1 month later,the same thing. Never realizing WD from the Prozac and ativan was still present I went back to the hospital. Switched again to Celexa.

 

Not feeling well I began to taper the Celexa. Here I am now still fighting. The point is WD from Prozac is very real. If I would have known, I would

 

hhave stuck it out. I would be done with this crap. Not one Doctor told me about WD while switching ADs. It's hard to handle that morning panic.

 

I've been there too. Give the change time. I pray for peace for you .It will come,slowly.

[cmusic]

Hey Flower,

 

So when you went to Zoloft it didn't provide relief in any way? I have been on it and was hoping I could use it to get a little more stable and then chip away at it very slowly.

 

I wish I could just give things time but I literally can't function right now. The suffering is too intense. I will lose my job and other aspects of my life will fall apart.

 

I was hoping Zoloft would make things a little better so I could start a slow taper a few months out.

[Altostrata]

Try reducing Lamictal as gradually as you increased it. You may be taking too much now and getting a paradoxical result.

 

Please do not leap to a full dose of any antidepressant. Although it may seem your symptoms are severe enough to warrant it, they are probably because your nervous system has become hypersensitive. You've had a lot of trouble with antidepressants in the past, you may react very badly to a full dose.

 

If you try something, I suggest very small amounts at first, 2mg-5mg, to see how it affects you before ramping up -- it if helps.

 

You may wish to see one of these doctors http://tinyurl.com/7cp8l8v , who at least seem compassionate and responsible.

 

It's unlikely anything will be the miracle that restores you to the antidepressant Garden of Eden.

[cmusic]

Thanks. I've actually been to Visions medical a bunch of times. Although the goal was never to taper at that point. They have a number of doctors, not sure who the best would be for this but maybe I'll give them a call and ask. They are also very big on supplements though - expensive ones.

[cmusic]

And for the last few years it wasn't a Garden of Eden, more like a garden of just getting by with a mess on my hands...

[cmusic]

So the latest development is that my psychiatrist wants me to increase the Lamictal to 25 mg. She sees my trending down as getting further and further off AD's and doesn't think the Lamictal did anything to worsen the situation. Honestly I don't know if it did or did not do anything. I may increase it, but it certainly won't be a direct bump all the way up to 25.

 

Here's what I am starting to figure out. It's becoming clear that the major symptom driving everything else is the sickening, unrelenting, unregulated panic. Benzos are not antidepressants, yet when I do reluctantly take one and give myself some relief from the hellish fight-or-flight, I start to think clearly, even show some interest in things. And my appetite comes back. So it's the wave after wave of uncontrolled panic that drives me into depression.

 

My theory is something like this:

 

• Serotonin system -> whether or not a thought or stimulus seems scary and terrifying, does it trigger fight-or-flight
• GABA system -> something to do with the intensity of the panic and how quickly you calm down

The reason is that even while on a benzo, I can still feel myself having panic reactions to small thoughts or stimuli. I can still sense that I'm getting blips of panic about things I shouldn't. The only difference is that they stay as blips. It doesn't set off the same level of waves of intensity that sicken me and drive me to cycle more thoughts and more panic and ultimately depression.

 

I know that Benzos aren't a good answer. I know that they quickly destabilize GABA and trigger rebound anxiety. Been there done that. What ultimately needs to happen is that my serotonin system, which has been chronically downregulated or damaged by a decade of SSRI's, needs to heal itself.

 

So I guess there is my answer for going back to SSRI's - I won't be. Because I would be losing any progress I've made towards healing, probably causing adaptations to go the other way again, and resetting the clock. I will have to get by on whatever Lamictal gives me, an occasional benzo when I'm incapacitated, many forced workouts and forced meals, and lots of meditation.

[Altostrata]

What ultimately needs to happen is that my serotonin system, which has been chronically downregulated or damaged by a decade of SSRI's, needs to heal itself.

You've got it!

 

I crashed in 2010 after trying to switch from Prozac to a tricyclic....

You have prolonged withdrawal syndrome from a failed switch of antidepressants. Waves of intense anxiety or panic are classic withdrawal symptoms.

 

Frequently in these situations, further antidepressants acts as stimulants and make the anxiety worse.

 

Since you're not having a bad reaction from the lamotrigine, I would stick with it. It tends to decrease the reactivity needed for that panic reaction. Don't make any big jumps in dosage -- this is especially important with Lamictal, because big jumps could lead to an allergic-type reaction.

 

I'm sure your psychiatrist is pleased because at least she has you on some psychiatric drug. For some people, lamotrigine may act as an antidepressant and she probably thinks it's doing that for you -- or might.

[FeelingAlone]

How are you feeling today Cmusic? I know this journey is unrelenting sometimes, but it does get better. People would tell me that and it was hard for me to believe. The improvements were very subtle and hard to recognize, but they were there. If you ever need to talk, I'm here for you!!

[cmusic]

How are you feeling today Cmusic? I know this journey is unrelenting sometimes, but it does get better. People would tell me that and it was hard for me to believe. The improvements were very subtle and hard to recognize, but they were there. If you ever need to talk, I'm here for you!!

 

Hi FeelingAlone,

 

Your screen name is exactly how I feel. I was thinking about Frodo in Lord of the Rings, no one could bear the weight of his pain except him. No one knew what it was like. My family and others are there to support me, but I do feel alone in this sometimes.

 

But hearing from people like you reminds me that it's not true, that there are others out there that are going through this and that we are not alone.

 

In general it's the same pattern for me every day. I get intense anxiety and fear when I wake up, about having to live the day. Paralyzed from fear of doing even the smallest things. Force myself up and through shower and out. No breakfast because the smell of it sickens me. Quickly break down into tears and usually stay in depression and panic for most of the daytime hours. Some relief at night. Start groundhog day again.

 

I'm starting to seriously consider re-instating an SSRI and then beginning a slow and deliberate taper. I'm going to post again in a bit with my thoughts on that. Although I could continue to soldier on, I have to ask myself - at what cost? At the cost of losing my job? Letting my family go to pieces?

 

I certainly wasn't stable when on meds, and I hate the notion of going back on with every shred of my soul. But this is more suffering than I could have imagined. So once again I feel stuck with no good options.

 

Anyway, thanks so much for checking in. It made my day.

[FeelingAlone]

I felt the same way you do now. I never imagined it would get better and I would be stuck in perpetual hell for the rest of my days, but slowly it is getting better. When you are having a rough time, feel free to reach out to me for support. I also battled daily with the notion of reinstating SSRIs, but am so glad I didn't. Please remember that your CNS is frazzled and out of whack and a SSRI might not help. In my caseit made it worse. Things that are helping me is exercise, vitamins, and I'm now in therapy to help me work through the trauma of withdrawal. Hang in there, it does get better!

[cmusic]

Thanks. I'm very torn on reinstating. I'm going to really have to think about it. On the one hand everything I read here tells me a slow taper is an absolute must. Yet I went off pretty much cold turkey.

 

I read on a very informed blog (where Alto has posted too) that it takes 4-6 weeks for the brain to adapt to about a 10% decrease. That seems to be in line with the information on this site and others. Of course everyone is different.

 

But my thinking is - that if I'm going to be this way for whatever time it takes. And I can't shorten the period of time. Can I at least keep the drug level consistent with what my brain needs in order to minimize the severity of the pain? Isn't that the whole theory behind tapering?

 

Here's the blog post... http://npanth.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/reinstating-ssri-use-during-withdrawal/

 

So if I was to reinstate, having been off for two months, I would go back to 80% of my previous dose and down 10% a month from that point forward.

 

But here's what I don't understand - would this approach lengthen the overall time it takes to get off and recover? Would I be resetting the clock such that at the end of the taper I'd have to go through another long period of withdrawal? Or is the taper the withdrawal itself and when I get to the end I'm at the end?

 

This is so confusing and feels like there's no right answer.

[FeelingAlone]

I am not absolutely sure about reinstating, but if you do I believe you would try a small amount first...way way less than 80% of your formal dose. Alto is the expert on what dose to start your reinstatement at. The tapering process is the withdrawal process and once you're done you won't experience what you are going through now. Tapering is meant to ease the wd symptoms. Again though, I didn't taper, I went off my AD cold turkey twice! I don't recommend it cause my first few months were hell, but now I'm starting to heal and this journey isn't so scary anymore. Whatever you decide everyone here will support you through your journey.

[Meimeiquest]

Most of us don't get to do it right as we don't know any better. You don't have the same nervous system that you did before your CT. Nobody knows what nervous system you have now after all the changes. That's why Alto advises raising the dose very slowly...you are tapering up instead of down to find a place of stability after a too fast taper. Once you have stabilized for a good period of time, then you start the 10, or even 5, % cuts. But jumping to your old dose might make things worse.

 

Someone wrote once that their observation was that it takes 5 years to taper and recover from a cocktail of psychotropic drugs. You can go CT, lose your job, lose your house, etc for those 5 years, or you can taper for 5 years which is grindingly tedious but you get to keep your life. I really admire the CT crowd, their tenacity is amazing, but I don"t have any desire to duplicate their experiences.

[laineyk]

Music, greetings. I too am living a hellish nightmare right now. As you can see in my signature I have had a long hx of zoloft 12 years.

 

aprrox a year ago I started having anxiety out of nowhere (I had been taking my zoloft every other day for almost a year!) by the time I realized I had put myself into w/d it was to late for me

 

I had aggresively increased my dose from 50 -200mgs in a matter of a few short months and then weaned off from 200mgs to zero in 2 months...YIKES!!!!!

 

Oct & Nov 2012 I really started falling apart. BTW the way you describe your day is me to the teeeeeeeee...WAKE WITH ANXIETY no appetite, gut feels like its in a vice grip etc.

 

I had been taking small doses of klonopin once or twice a day (.25mgs) but since Dec.2012 been taking it daily and had increased to 1.25mgs a day

 

I recently went to 1mg a day, take .25mgs as I wake up...8 hours later 2:00pm another .25mgs and then at 10:00pm .5mgs

 

I started my reinstatement back in Dec. but screwed around with the dosages way to much and found myself getting sicker , so I am now going into week 8 of being on 50mgs and there has been a slight improvement but no where how I was before this all started

 

I went 6 years totally anxiety/depression free!!!

 

My gut has gotten SO bad I had to see a gastoenterologist, going in for endoscopy on Tuesday (scared crapless) but I have lost since last summer over 30lbs...I had a sonogram and that showed no abnormalities but I found that I am gluten & dairy sensitive

 

 

been gluten/dairy free for 2 weeks now and it has helped some with stomach....but still have no "REAL" appetite, like you I shove something into my mouth just so I wont faint away

 

My suggestion is this and believe me I know NOTHING...stay with the Lamical, DO NOT REINSTATE....its what has made us sick to begin with. And if you need to take a benzo for this time so be it, you need to have a life

 

There are a lot of ppl here that are zealots against benzos & I totally understand, but without it I wouldnt even get out of bed.

 

Im impressed you have kept your job!!! I was written out of work since Dec 2012 and do not forsee me going back for a very long time

 

I feel dizzy, paranoid, headachey....and gut kills most days

 

Please let us know what you decide to do

 

I am giving this poison another week (have to get through the endoscopy and all before making any moves) and then I think I will taper off for good...cant feel any worse then I already do

 

I was originally given this for insomnia and slight anxiety...now I have severe anxiety and panic attacks...thanks Zoloft for all your help

[cmusic]

Thanks everyone. Yeah I'm singularly focused on keeping my job. It's brutal, absolutely. But I don't get any relief sitting around my house on weekends - in fact it's worse because I just get hit with waves of pain and fear and crying all day. The job forces me to continue to have to live in some way. So I need it. And it's the best job I've ever had and I desperately don't want to lose it.

 

I'm lucky in that I have a boss who 'gets it'. His wife had a similar situation happen to her. But that doesn't mean my performance can slip. It just means I can be up-front with him and set expectations to be proactive in case he sees any concerns. I view this as an incredibly lucky break, and I am thankful for it.

 

Anyway, very torn on reinstating. The grass is always greener, you know? I tried a very low dose for 7 days a few weeks back and it didn't do anything. If I decide to try again it would be to get back to the level that my brain expects and go slowly down from there. Of course I'd go slowly up to that level too.

 

On another note, I just posted an experience in the bad experiences with alternative medicine thread in symptoms and self care. I went to a holistic clinic yesterday. Besides being frustrated and disappointed, I did come out with several un-answered questions...

 

• Cortisol - mine is pretty low (as of a test done a few years ago by them). My understanding is that my adrenals can be taxed as a result of chronic stress. Is this to be expected when a person goes through this much suffering on a daily basis? Is there anything that can even be done about it? (lots of expensive supplements is their answer).
• Supplements - they want me on all this 'stuff'. 5-HTP among many other things. I tried it last night and it ramped up my anxiety and stomach. I won't be taking it anymore. Also this stuff called Kavinace - which I looked into and it's basically a proprietary (and expensive) form of Phenibut. Has anyone heard of Phenibut? I did some research and the verdict seems to be it acts like GABA and calms you down but is addictive (even though I was told otherwise by the doc).

Needless to say I've once again worked myself into a frenzy of things to think about, consider, what to do about this, don't have all the info I need, ... , all of it creating more worry and perpetuating the cycle of fear. Strengthening the notion in my brain that there's something very wrong with me and my life. That I'm doomed. And causing the anxiety and depression to recycle and spin out of control.

 

Is there something very wrong here? Or are things really ok and I should know what's going on and just need to accept that it will take time to get better? It's amazing how I simply can't answer that question.

[Altostrata]

cmusic, those are good questions.

 

The key is to keep your nervous system stable. If reinstatement stabilizes your nervous system (withdrawal symptoms go away), which can take a while, you can taper from that stable platform.

 

If your taper is slow enough so the stability is maintained, post-discontinuation withdrawal symptoms will be minimized.

 

Length of time to get off the drugs is a non-issue. Maintaining nervous system stability and quality of life is the goal.

[laineyk]

I too struggle with those same questions...I really believe I MUST have a brain tumor or something because my head feels SOOOOO weird and I get headaches daily lately

 

I hope you can come to some solution that will help

[cmusic]

I find that I keep asking myself - is this withdrawal or is this depression/anxiety? I think what I'm finding is that the answer is yes.

 

In what I have been reading everyone have natural 'stuff'. Most likely the reason we were given drugs to begin with. In my case I have social trauma from childhood and a genetic predisposition to anxiety and depression.

 

The result is that my natural issues are highly anticipatory in nature. Fear of starting the day. Fear of having to do anything, go anywhere, deal with anything. It doesn't matter that I'm actually very good at those things, I have always had this up-front anxiety.

 

So where does being in withdrawal come in? Withdrawal seems to take whatever people's 'stuff' is and magnify the hell out of it. So what once was butterflies in the stomach is now sickening, debilitating panic. And what was 'just being down' is now hysterical crying spells.

 

It's much tougher for me to get to going in the first place now. It takes every shred of energy I have to fight through and begin the process of living the day or doing anything. Once I get through a situation, however, I am capable of feeling better. At least until the anticipation starts for the next thing.

 

So that's my particular form of hell. The next person in withdrawal might have no trouble getting going but might be susceptible to seeing certain people or places or whatever.

 

Oh and did I mention that I find myself developing new phobias as a result of this? New traumas, new situations I now fear.

[Meimeiquest]

Wow! Great post! I think you're going to see some movement soon!