leahy Tapering off Remeron, headaches, nausea, sleep

[leahy]

I love this video. Have you seen this? It's a breath of fresh air...

 

http://www.outsideonline.com/2010526/we-wish-more-doctors-prescribed#st_refDomain=m.facebook.com&st_refQuery=

[leahy]

I love this video. Have you seen this? It's a breath of fresh air...

 

http://www.outsideonline.com/2010526/we-wish-more-doctors-prescribed#st_refDomain=m.facebook.com&st_refQuery=

[Hopefull]

Hi Leahy,

Try Rameron Soltab to make your tappering easier.

15mg tablet =15mls of water

Soltab dissolves in the water.

I found this method easy to follow.

[leahy]

Thank you, Fresh. I've been afraid to change the 30 mg tablets.That's good to know about the solutabs. I'll try that when I am feeling  stronger and courageous.  I tried to move to 15mg tablets and that went badly. My body did not think two 15 mg tablets were the same as one 30 mg.

[leahy]

Yesterday I re-read "Why taper slowly?" on SA. It is so meaningful to me now. The lower the dosage goes the more difficult the cuts become, hence the 10% rule. Duh. I've read this before, but it was very helpful to me yesterday.

 

I looked back and see I held at 26 mg for six weeks. Then I dropped to 22 mg for only three weeks. No wonder 15 mg was hard. I'm going to hold at 15 mg for two months and give my system a chance to catch up with the changes. I always have a headache to some degree but I wake up around 2 or 3 AM in excruciating pain. I need to get over that hurtle. And now I understand I need to heal a whole lot more before I continue with tapering.

[tgirl]

Hi L,

What are your symptoms when you make a cut?

Do you have a pattern?

Thank you,

T

[leahy]

Hi T,

 

When I make a cut I get a horrendous headache. The pain starts on the right side near the temple and radiates down over the right ear. It continues on the left side lower temple. It's always the same. the headache is more severe on the right side. My head feels the way my jaw/teeth feel when coming off of novocaine at the dentist.

 

This headache creates a nauseous feeling as well. Hard to tell which comes first the headache or the nausea. Although sometimes I have the headache without the nausea. This headache trumps everything else so I cannot speak about the emotional stuff. That's a blur. Nothing helps much except the next good night's sleep. Sleep is essential for me to feel better. Sometimes I wear sea bands though when I am at wits end.

 

I take shaves off my pills when I feel good enough to do it so it might be more accurate to say I am doing "micro cuts." Dropping to 15 mg was a mistake but when I realized the mistake I kept at 15 mg. That has been tough, though. I'll be more careful with the next. I'll start with shaving a few shaves. I count them. 4, 6, 10 and so on until the pill looks like I can use a pill cutter. 

[leahy]

PS The other pattern is I wake up at 2 or 3 AM with racing thoughts, feeling fearfull, anxious PLUS the headache. Then besides "real" problems I perseverate about in the night, I become anxious because I am worried about not sleeping. Lately, I take xanax, two aspirin, and True Calm.  Last night I put in my mouth guard. Maybe the headache is from bruxism? I have no idea what's happening. I'm going to pay attention to when this subsides so I can record that pattern. I hope it is a pattern so I can plan around it. I need to remember to record when this DOESN'T happen.

 

Thanks for asking the question, T. It's good for me to write it down.

[dalsaan]

I get headaches followed by nausea. They are usually generated by muscle stiffness in my neck and shoulders. Massage helps as does magnesium

 

D x

[leahy]

I take magnesium every night (True Calm) but have not noticed a change in my headaches when I do. Yesterday I tried massaging my head. The I got a brush and brushed my scalp. That felt good but I still have a headache. This morning it is in my right temple and forms a c curve at the base of my head towards the left side. I have the sensation of my head being asleep as in pins and needles when a limb falls asleep. Sounds like circulation...

 

I do feel better. I have been waking up at night with tension/headaches/anxiety and upon waking in the morning with anxiety. I forgot about cortisol spikes. Could black seed oil or quercitin being the cause of cortisol spiking? I don't know. I have been attributing headache and waking up, to withdrawal. I'll try taking both in the morning only. I do wake up stuffy in my nose but that passes. Black Seed oil does not taste good. I take a swig and I'm done with it. I think it is helping as I am lowering the antihistamine effect of mirtazapine.

 

How does one tell the difference from what is real and what is medication related? I do have reasons for sad and anxious at this time. I am confused about what is natural sadness and anxiety and what is medication provoked sadness and anxiety. 

 

I am holding at 15 mg and will hold a good long time. Decreasing meds gets more difficult the lower we go. I understand that I need to give my CNS a chance to catch up with my changes. I wonder if I'll ever be done with ADs and will I be OK when I am done. 

 

I've gained another 10 pounds since I started withdrawal. I am now 180 pounds from 135 pounds. That makes me realize my weight gain CAN get worse! I was unhappy at 165 when I started withdrawal. Yesterday I was googling ovarian cancer symptoms and ovarian cyst symptoms to see if I have another reason for the weight gain and looking hugely pregnant. It's uncomfortable and embarrassing. Yes, I know I should see my doctor and I will when things settle down for me.

 

L

[dalsaan]

Here is a page that highlights particular pressure points that you can massage to address headaches.  Its basically acupressure and probably worth a go - https://www.herbalshop.com/Acupressure/Acupressure09.html

 

Re the weight, have you tried a very low carb diet?

 

D 

[leahy]

Thank you for this information, D. I was going to ask you exactly how the massage is done and this diagram is very helpful. Do you massage yourself or is it better if someone else massages those point?

 

Best,

L

[Hibari]

Hi Leahy,

 

How are you doing today?  I read your posts above and I completely understand being confused about what is medication and what is real emotions at this time.  I also understand, as you know, the weight gain from Remeron.  From everything I have read, it will drop off when we get off of the medication.  

 

I too am feeling sad, a sense of loss coupled with anxiety.  For me it's my age and the feelings of loss around things I did not accomplish on a personal level.    

 

I hope your physical symptoms get better.  I remember once when I was rear ended in a car, I went to an osteopath and he said the headache I was experiencing (across my forehead and down the side) was caused by the muscles being tense on either side of my neck.   But, I also have a headache today and I just made a medication cut from 22-20. 

 

I support you in helping your CNS stabilize and heal.

[leahy]

"I too am feeling sad, a sense of loss coupled with anxiety.  For me it's my age and the feelings of loss around things I did not accomplish on a personal level."

 

Yes, Hibari, these are the feelings that keep us anxious, sad and can be crippling. Age is definitely one and feelings of remorse thinking of moments when I wasn't always a great mother. When I mention this to my pdoc, she says "You can't think about that now. Just keep moving forward.

 

This might be the only thing she's said that I agree with. She's right. I know I'll never make it if I let myself go down that rabbit hole over and over. 

 

Have you tried making a list of things you like about yourself? I can tell you some of the great qualities you have. You are compassionate, very bright, insightful and kind.

 

I woke up at 5AM totally sick to my stomach with a headache. My body is NOT at all happy with my drop to 15. I do not recommend rushing things. I am hoping I can get past this.

[dalsaan]

If I can get someone to massage that's better. If not I do the ones I can reach more easily

[freespirit]

Leahy,

 

I can relate to a lot of the things that you've posted recently. I'm not sure if I gained weight during tapering, as I refused to weigh myself then. But I do know that at times, the cravings were bad and I wasn't eating well. And of course, I suffered both from headaches and nausea, which didn't help matters. And in fact, no matter what I did about eating and exercise, I just could not lose weight on remeron. It did finally change when I jumped off..and not suggesting you do that anytime soon...just wanted to say, it will change in time.

 

I have reasons for sadness, loneliness, etc. in my life too. And I've found it's impossible to know what is about current life, childhood, or what is from WD itself. I suspect there is some combination of those things..and if you believe in this, I sense some of it for myself is even karmic. I think these were things I came into this life with.

 

Just recently, I'm trying more to just meet the emotions and accept them...without having to know. I try different things, to see what works best in the moment. Sometimes, it's putting on music that is more likely to evoke tears...or it's getting out on my bike in nature (which can sometimes bring tears too, or helps to feel that nature can hold my sadness)..or distracting, or writing to a friend, or cuddling my cats. I might never know where the feelings come from, but I can try to treat them with compassion. I feel much less at war, and less controlled by them, though the feelings themselves are very often there.

 

I'm finding a lot of benefit from acupuncture and chiropractic, though not sure if that would have been the case earlier...things like this are very much a matter of timing.

 

On a practical note, bruxism was intense for me during WD..I wear my nightguard not just at nights, but also during naps. When it was very bad for awhile, my dentist recommended I wear it part-time through the day at well. It didn't stop the clenching, but it stopped me cracking my teeth..and headaches were much less when I used it regularly.

 

I don't know if there's anything helpful there for you...but maybe knowing someone else has been there and has come through can sometimes help.

[leahy]

Thank you FS for your response. I love reading responses. I read it 3 times. Amazingly, I feel pretty good today. Without nausea and only a subtle headache, I find myself worrying abut my brain.

 

The memory issues are scary. I have extremely slow reaction times to things. Sometimes I'll rethink a conversation I never answered and have an answer a week later. The person of course is no longer around. Very slow processing time. Very slow.

 

I have word retrieval issues constantly. I keep losing things and cannot remember at all when or where I lost them - medication, keys, important things. I don't notice any difference when I take fish oil. 

 

I'll stop mid sentence with no recall of what I was saying or ability to finish the sentence. Its a good thing I retired. I can't imagine actually functioning in the work world. I hope we get our brains back. I am counting on neuroplasticity.

[freespirit]

There is no shortage of things to worry about in WD. One thing is easily replaced by another.

 

I've had times of difficult around word-finding, remembering, and even figuring out simple instructions. Right now, my bike computer remains in the box, because I can't seem to make sense of how to put it on...even though I think it is quite simple. If I don't have a better time soon, I'll take it to the bike shop and have them install it. For the most part though, my brain has gotten much better than it was. Maybe some part of it is normal for aging, grief, having had a mild brain injury, stress, etc. I don't know how I'd be right now, if I was still on the full dose of mirt. or if some of the other things hadn't happened.

 

One thing I've noted recently is the discomfort I sense when a symptom disappears. There's a big emptiness, where something used to consume a lot of my energy. The emptiness is uncomfortable and my mind goes searching for something to replace it. That's just what the mind does. My meditation teacher used to say that the mind secretes thoughts like the glands secrete hormones. But we can begin to make inroads in not believing every thought that passes through.

 

I can't say enough for the benefit of inclining the mind towards positive things as well. That's not to deny or suppress what we are thinking or feeling, but to help bring some sense of balance. No matter how crappy I feel, I go outside and walk, cycle, work in the garden, or sit by the ocean. I don't always feel better when doing so (but usually I do). I feel it's important to give myself at least as many positive or nurturing things to focus on. Over time, I believe this makes a difference..and it's laying a foundation for how to go through difficult experiences in life.

 

I also make efforts to interrupt the dwelling on what's wrong, what has gone wrong, and what could go wrong. I know exactly where those roads lead. I acknowledge the feelings behind them---usually some form of fear...and then, I get up and do something. Sitting for long periods of time in my chair is the road to misery. This may be different for you, and something different may be of help. I'm just saying these things to suggest it's possible to respond differently to the content of the mind.

 

I hope you were able to enjoy feeling better physically....

[tgirl]

Hello Leahy,

Just wanted to check in and see how you are doing.

Are you getting any sleep?

How are your head aches?

I hope you are well.

Tgirl

[leahy]

Thanks for reaching out Tgirl. I am adjusting to 15 mg. The good news is that I know I am adjusting and patiently waiting to stabilize. The  headaches are weird, more intense around the right temple. Haven't heard anyone else talk about headaches like this but I am attributing my current headache to dropping to 15 mg too rapidly. Sometimes nausea and pins and needles in my feet - another clue. I'm really very happy that I made it to 15mg, though. It is truly a big hurtle for me.

 

Writing this out reminds me of how much I suffered in the beginning of wd and how much better, really, the symptoms are now in comparison. 

 

Slow taper is key. Slow taper. Slow taper. Slow taper. I have to remind myself because when I feel better, I forget. I also want to be sure that anyone reading my signature isn't misled. Most of my cuts were way too big.

 

Leahy

[leahy]

Tgirl,

 

I went back and reread your thread. Wow. You sure have come a long way. The beginning of your thread is heart wrenching. I could feel your pain. I'm so glad you feel well enough now to stop by my thread and reach out to me. I completely relate to those early days and how difficult they were. I'm looking forward to reading the rest of your thread. I'm on page 3 halfway down to JanCarol's post and I'd like to quote her. It's a good one. I think I may have read your thread before but sometimes I forget what I've read. Forgetful. That's me.

 

"Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again."

[leahy]

I feel like my body is fighting me on the drop15 mg. Yes, still. At best, I feel tired all day with a headache and mild nausea. It holds me back from functioning normally. Four days ago I switched to one 15 mg tab of remeron. I thought perhaps my breaking the 30 mg was problematic because the breaking could be inconsistent. Headache nausea. The symptoms are helped by good sleep which is difficult to accomplish. If I weren't retired I could never do this. I could not work all day in this condition.

 

I've been working on a house that I bought - a fixer upper and it has been very difficult and scary. I call it the money pit. Borrowing money to do this is scares me, also. I am my own contractor. Making decisions/hiring people is excruciating and sometimes costly in that I get ripped off. But here I am, hoping in the end, I am able to pull this off. So far I am into repairing this smaller home to retire to for two years.

 

Why taper now? I just learned at 65 yrs. old that my medication was my problem. When we learn the truth, we know we have to come off. And like most people I had absolutely no idea how difficult it would be.

 

I feel like remeron has a mean hold on me.

[tgirl]

Hello Leachy,

Thank you for reading my thread.

Sorry you are experiencing head aches.

That's wonderful that you are able to work on a house.

Just wanted to say hello!

Tgirl

[leahy]

Hi Tgirl,

 

My god. You've come so far, Tgirl. You are an inspiration to me. Thanks for saying hi to me and for the encouraging words about my working on a house. I had no idea what I was headed for with the house.

Nor did I know I would be facing something called withdrawal.

I'm not sure which one is worse.

Oh, yes, I do know.

Remeron wins the prize for being the most horrific.

[leahy]

I feel so sick. I wake up during the night with headache and nausea like I was on a 3 day drinking binge. I have been at 15 mg for 6 weeks now. I felt very good the first 2 weeks but have been sick pretty much every day since then. It seems to be getting worse and worse each day making it impossible to function. I can totally commiserate with Traveler who writes in frustration this is no way to live a life. I am so sick of feeling sick. All day. Every day. All night.

[tgirl]

L,

Hold on!

Tgirl

[Hibari]

Leahy, I'm so sorry you are feeling bad and that it has not gotten better.   I know it's hard to figure out what is causing this drop to be so tough for you.   Maybe others with more experience can advise you on what might help with what you are going through with your tapering. 

 

Do you think, if it's financially something you can do, that any holistic treatments might help such as massage, acupuncture or reflexology? 

 

You are not alone.

 

Hibari

[freespirit]

I'm sorry this is proving so difficult a drop Leahy. Are there other stresses right now, that might be contributing too? I know you mentioned working on your house and wonder if that's a part of things. Not that you can stop what you're doing, but sometimes, having an understanding of how things can be adding to the issues can be helpful. Are you able to do any kind of relaxation practices? I know you walk and that's great practice.

 

It's also hard to know what influence alternative practices can have, when things are worse. I think it depends on the practitioner and how well they listen to you and your body. But it might be worth considering.

 

Are you taking anything in terms of supplements right now?

[leahy]

I continue to feel sicker than ever. I seem to wake up around 3 am lately wide awake as if for the day. I always have a headache but the 3 am headache is severe. Today I feel like i have morning sickness with the severe headache. I feel so sick to my stomach it makes everything difficult. Last night I took aspirin, xanax and Bach's rescue remedy at 4 am to get back to sleep. I also put on a sleep hypnosis youtube. I did go back to sleep but the headache and sea sickness feeling was even worse when I got up.

 

I don't know what's happening. It feels like I made a huge cut. I am taking the 15 mg tabs for a week now because I thought feeling sick might be related to the way I was breaking the 30 mg tabs. It's been seven weeks on 15 mg. I felt great the first two weeks.

 

I take fish oil, quercitin, vitamin c and coq10, also ginger tabs for nausea.

[freespirit]

Hi Leahy,

 

Sorry you're feeling so awful. That sounds like how I felt when I jumped off last year.

 

I have no idea if this is true for you or not...but, with the issues with histamine, fish oil can be a problem for some people. While I tolerated krill oil during tapering, I had to quit when I stopped taking the drug. Anything containing even minute amounts of fish, like an enzyme that I took, made me very sick. I still can't consume anything with fish. Have a close look at your other supplements to see if they contain any wheat, dairy, sugar, corn, etc...as these can also be problematic.

 

Have you tried reducing histamine in your diet? All of these things are individual and unknown. We can often learn only by trying gently and slowly. I found the supplements like C or tart cherry could only be implemented once I got my diet better tuned. Otherwise, had trouble tolerating those as well..or they had little to no effect. Things like eating no leftovers, smaller meals, and less protein at once also had an impact for me...same for eliminating all scented or toxic products in the house and for personal use like shampoo. Meditation of some sort has also been essential-sometimes several times/day, but at a minimum once/day.

 

Someone with more experience might be able to say whether xanax use is in any way contributing. Looks like you dropped the amount you were taking over the last few months.

[dalsaan]

Leahy,

 

I just went through your taper. You have gone too quick and I think it has caught up with you. If you had dropped by 10percent a month since February you would be on 23.6 now (that's without any holds of longer than 4 weeks). On top of that your last cut was over 30 percent (assuming your signature is accurate). This has also been exacerbated by benzo changes during that time.

 

If I was you I would go back to 22.5 and hold for a couple of weeks to see what happens. If you stabilise and your symptoms diminish hold for a month or two. I would use your headache as a guide for how your system is coping and I wouldn't make another cut until your headache has gone, your sleep ok etc.

 

Two key points about tapering that you need to take on board. 1. You want to go slow enough so that you avoid symptoms as much as possible and 2) make cuts from a basis of stability. Your body decides what's too much or too soon. Listen to it.

 

Dalsaan

[leahy]

I followed my doctors instructions in February and March, dropping 15 mg each month. I can't change that. I discovered SA in April and held 30 mg for 3 months.

 

I decreased by shaving off little pieces at a time - micro cuts and was doing very well. I did not make sudden drops. 

[dalsaan]

Ok, that was a bit difficult to see given what you say in your signature. I still think your micro cuts have been too much for you. How are you feeling and would you consider up dosing?

 

I'm not judging you on your taper I'm concerned about your health and well being

 

Dalsaan

[leahy]

Thank you for you concern, Dalsaan. Yes, I will updose to 22.5. I started updosing last night. I am guessing it will take 4 days before I see an improvement.

[leahy]

I do feel a bit better after up dosing to 22.5 mg last night. Not great but better. I hate up dosing but cannot function at all with the horrendous wd.

 

It's confusing because after 7 weeks on 15 mg I thought I was fine. The delayed reaction is unexpected even though I know it happens.

 

I was on Remeron for 17 years, many of those years at 90 mg, so it's not surprising that my brain would rebel. I feel shackled, falsely imprisoned by this drug.

[dalsaan]

It's a temporary setback and the purpose of up dosing is to make sure you get off in a good way. Which you will. Try not to be too disheartened.

 

I'm concerned that your shaving technique may not be a good strategy for you. Maybe wait until you are stable and then go to a liquid method for really precise dosing

 

D