Hi, so glad to be here! -- from Lor95

[Lor95]

God, it's so good to be able to come to a place where I don't have to think "you think THAT'S hell, you have no idea!". It's been over 2 years of hell so far and I'm still so high up in dose - 18 mg seroxat/paxil. Sometimes I despair. The thing I'm most scared by, is the fact that I did a taper from 20 to 15 (over 2-3 months with liquid) and the things I experienced at 15mg were the things people were talking about in cold turkey. That scares the holy crap out of me. If I can't get below 15, how the hell can I hope to get off the stuff??? However, I do highly suspect I'm in tolerance and had I tried lowering a little (I held on at 15mg for 3 months, getting worse and worse), instead of going back to 20mg, things may have been different?

I'm 2 weeks into this drop to 18 mg and not well at all.

Any words of hope?

[Neuroplastic]

Hey, Lor! Go slow on the taper. And it absolutely can be done. Some people may start feeling better when hitting single digits. So glad to read you find this place so helpful. Let's still hear what other folks will say about your tapering procedure. There should be here shortly. Take care!

[Lor95]

Hey Neuro,

 

I'm going real slow - 0.5 mg every 4 weeks or so, I've tried to hold longer but I seem to get worse.

Thanks for your reply!

[Altostrata]

I feel for you, Lor. Tapering off paroxetine can be very, very tough.

 

For some medications, I found my nervous system reacts to even .2mg differences. Is it possible for you to reduce the size of your drops?

[Lor95]

Hi All,

 

I'm getting worse, especially this weekend. I've had to take 2 xanax (equivalent to 1mg total) for several days this week. My main symptoms is overwhelming, paralysing depression as well as the desperate fear that comes with it, lucid? dreaming especially in the early hours (fitful "sleep" with periods of waking up with incomprehensible nonsense running through my mind), episodes of confusion and memory lapses. It has taken me almost 4 months to get to 18mg from 20 as I just wasn't stabilising after reinstating from a 15mg crash.

I HATE taking the xanax, but I only do so when I feel suicidal due to the mental anguish of it all and I feel I have no other option. Since my crash in April last year I have taken it but not consistently, as yet never more than 1mg a day for a period, then start weaning it down as soon as I feel able. I don't think I've taken 1mg for more than 2 weeks in

succession (YET). But my symptoms are SO severe. There was even a period of a couple of months late last year when I don't think I took any.

Please help, opinions wanted. 16 days at 18 mg - small drop to 17.5????

[Healing]

Lor, I don't know you or your history.

 

Do you get relief when you make a drop? If so, maybe you are in tolerance, and need to keep moving down.

 

If, on the contrary, you feel horrible after a drop, then maybe you need to slow it down even more.

 

I so understand the torture and the temptation to take Xanax, but I suspect that taking it prn is destabilizing your system even more. If you're not in tolerance from the Seroxat, I would consider staying put at your current Seroxat dose and tapering off the Xanax slowly first.

 

Then, we need to look at every other possible regimen you can put in place to help you with the terrible depression and anxiety -- all the diet, exercise, relaxation technique, therapies, stress reduction things.

 

What do you think?

[Healing]

Addendum -- I see now you mentioned that you get worse if you hold the dose too long. OK, given that, another option that occurs to me is to keep dropping the Seroxat as you're doing 0.5 mg every 4 weeks, and pick a dose of Xanax and stay absolutely still on it. Then, some day in the future, taper off the Xanax.

[Lor95]

Healing, thanks so much for your kindness in replying to me.

I really don't think the xanax is the problem - I don't seem to get adverse affects from, say, taking 0.5 mg for a few days, then 0.25 then nothing the next. In the early days when I ignorantly cold turkeyed and went to hell after a couple of weeks/months, I would updose and take up to 2mg of xanax whilst stabilising, be fine within a month and just cold turkey the xanax with NO problems.

Updosing seroxat doesn't work like that anymore for me. Last time I updosed back to 20mg it took 4 months to feel noticeably better (nowhere near well though) and then crashed again after a couple of months.

It's the seroxat/paxil. I'm pretty sure I'm in tolerance but scared to drop in case it ruins everything I've done so far. I don't think it's an option anymore to updose.

A lot of people get terrible anxiety in withdrawal, I get absolute soul crushing depression AS WELL..that's another thing that scares me. I feel so alone with that.

[Lor95]

Oh, I don't think I've made myself clear here. This last drop to 18 mg hasn't really given me any relief you see, maybe 2 sporadic days since i dropped 16 days ago. And the last 3 days I feel myself getting worse, reminiscent to what I felt at 15mg when I couldn't take it anymore and updosed.

I have been able to hold for 4 weeks the last few drops. This time the absolute hell has come on faster. So that's why I'm asking for opinions about a drop.

[angie007]

Hi Buddy,

 

Know that you are not alone with that depression feeling,

All here know that so well - even me!!!!

When the thoughts wont let up and you feel like your in a pit

that you cant climb out of because of what this drug has done.

 

LOR, u do know that benzos can make you feel more depressed???

Even when taken sparingly.

 

So glad you feel at home here amongst friends who care and know what your going through.

[Altostrata]

Lor, that crushing depression is withdrawal, hang in there.

 

Seems like you're damned if you drop, and you're damned if you don't.

 

This is a very tough decision. If others have had to deal with this, please chime in here.

[angie007]

Just drop a tiny bit and make all your drops tiny,#

and use the xanax in emergency situations only.

[Lor95]

Just an update, I dropped to 17.5 to see if it would help - no change so far. Today is the 3rd day on the new dose.

What scares me the most is that noone seems to talk about severe debilitating depression. That is probably my worst symptom. I feel like every day I am just holding on by my fingernails. I felt like that for about 4 months during my drop to 15 mg last year and for some time during my updose. Now it's back. This is by no means my only symptom, but probably the worst. I don't get suicidal thoughts that just pass, it's more like I'm scared if this goes on and on it may be my only option.

Please, please help me guys.

[Lor95]

I have posted my dilemma under my first post "So Glad to be here" but want to draw attention to it because I'm getting desperate.

[Neuroplastic]

Lor, I so know how it feels. It's perfectly normal, and it's one of the most common symptoms in WD. The reason why some do not mention it in their posts is b/c it's depression in itself that makes them so energy-deprived that even logging in seems like a gargantuan task. It will pass. IT WILL PASS. As paradoxical as it may seem at first, you're feeling that way b/c your CNS is healing, trying to reach stasis again. And it will. Take it minute by minute, if the need be.

 

What would help (though I do realize it may feel virtually impossible for you to do know), would be to do any physical exertion within your reach, be it just walking (if, of course, agoraphobia, or other symptoms) let you do it.

[stan]

what is happening ?

[Lor95]

Stan,

 

Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety.

3 attempts to w/d over the years by going 20>10mg for 2 weeks>0. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg.

2003-2007: 30mg.

30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007.

20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly.

20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise.

Dec 2010~19.5mg

07/01/11~19mg

11/02/11~18.5mg

12/03/11~18mg

28/03/11~17.5mg

 

 

This is my history (from PP).

I could not stabilise properly after going back to 20mg in May last year.

I thought I was getting better but I had a big setback when they put me on a generic form of paxil (maybe coincidence).

I thought then that I had no choice but to taper. I was "coping" (still bad but sometimes some small improvements) until drop to 18mg. Seemed to be getting worse so dropped early to see if tolerance is the problem.

I am 3 days into the drop to 17.5mg and the depression is overwhelming, I get anxious depression as well, so panicky and can't concentrate on top of the depression. Don't know if I've done the wrong thing by dropping again.

I get scared because not many people say that they are so depressed that they are suicidal - anxiety yes, bad memory yes, feeling "low", yes, millions of other things, yes, but overwhelming crushing depression no.

I feel so alone and desperate.

[Lor95]

Neuro,

 

You always make me cry!!! I am at work at the moment (don't know how - I've done nothing but search for success stories on the internet all day). Thank you for your kindness. I have to go outside now so my colleagues don't see me cry.

 

BTW, I have started a new thread with more information about my history.

xx

[Altostrata]

Lor, I will join the two topics so everyone can get a full picture of what's going on with you.

 

You are in what I call the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position: You can't stay on Seroxat and getting off of it is h*llish.

 

From everything I've found and my own doctor's opinion, withdrawal from paroxetine and venlafaxine (Effexor) can be very, very difficult for some people, no matter how carefully you taper.

 

Your choices are:

 

A Go back up to 20mg (didn't work before)

B Stay where you are (currently very bad state, may change over time)

C Stay on 10% taper schedule (current results are not good)

D Continue to taper more slowly (may be more tolerable or you may get worse)

E Cold turkey (NOT ADVISED, can lead to worst damage)

F Find a doctor to switch you to fluoxetine (Prozac), stabilize, and taper off

 

You need to rationally evaluate each option for yourself.

 

Unfortunately, patients are left to make these terrible decisions alone, because there are too few doctors who understand tapering.

 

The few who do sometimes switch patients with extreme difficulty to fluoxetine. Doctors and patients do report some success with this approach. Some patients report that it did not succeed in making withdrawal easier.

 

On one hand, it might work; on the other, you will be in the same h*ll you are in now.

 

So it's not an easy option. If I were you, I would gather information about it so you can consider if you want to take the risk.

 

Since you are in the UK, I would phone Dr. David Healy in Wales http://medicine.cf.ac.uk/person/prof-david-thomas-healy/ Cardiff University main phone: Tel: +44(0) 2920 874000

 

and ask him if he can recommend a doctor nearer to you to help you with a switch to fluoxetine. Then talk to that doctor and make your decision.

 

My own doctor would start fluoxetine at a somewhat lower dosage than the paroxetine, for example, at 20mg paroxetine, he would switch to 10mg fluoxetine with a week of overlap.

 

In other words, take both for a week and then drop the paroxetine.

 

He has had success with this. He acknowledged fluoxetine can have its withdrawal problems, but given its long half-life, gradual tapering should be easier than tapering off paroxetine. And, at least fluoxetine comes in a liquid.

[Lor95]

Thanks Surviving.

Although I don't think the title reflects the desperate need of support I have right now. I hope people will still read.

[stan]

hi Lor95,

 

you are probably in poop out at 15 years (i was after 6 years)

you belong long-termer, you have to follow their track, better some who have succeed

reading long-termer success story can be well

the only road : taper following your schedule

 

do not take any nerve meds (xanax and so on)

contrary as you say xanax in demand prolong your agony and agravates your state

try to never updose (stay on dose), do not play up and down, you will pay it expensive

keep in mind that when you change your dose, the real effects are often 2/4 weeks after

many have succeed but have suffered as a dog

 

wait on 17,5 , no xanax, try to breath and relax, eat well, try to sleep

suffering in your case is normal, but you can less suffer if you have some rules

when problem ask long-termers before doing

[Neuroplastic]

Lor, there might be one more, VERY important factor. In one of your previous posts you're mentioning taking Xanax several times this week. It's possible that your already present depression deepened b/c of the Xanax rebound. For some it's addictive quite fast. The good news is that after a couple of days it improves. I know how difficult it is to abstain from taking benzo when you're in hell. The thing is that it works only for a couple of hours, and after it wears off, it usually gets worse. I'm absolutely convinced you will find enough strength to cope w/o Xanax. You really can do it. Hang in there Cosmically Bravely.

[Lor95]

Hi it's Lotty.

Things have got real bad.

So much so that it looks as if I will possibly have to quit my job, leave the country to be cared for by my family.

At this minute I feel one of my options is to do a faster taper (not cold turkey), get the stuff out of my system and pray to god that I will heal.

I know I will be having to consult with doctors probably and by no means do I want to be put on any anti-psychotics, effexor or SNRIs.

Does any one know of any other less potent drugs that on a very low dose may help me out?

I am overwhelmingly depressed when I am not on the edge of panic and desperation, feeling sick and exhausted to the point where getting out of bed is difficult, can't eat more than a few scraps during the day, extreme cognitive difficulties, streaming nonsensical thought when "sleeping", at times finding it difficult to do simple things like dial a phone number.

I am still on 17.5mg paxil.

What to do for the best?

[Healing]

Lotty -- I have moved your poignant post to the forum where I *think* it's best to put it -- still trying to figure this out, myself. Now, I am thinking about it and will reply shortly.

[stan]

hi LOr95,

 

have you read what i wrote you in post "i am so glad to be here" ?

 

i can only give you advices to wean,

 

i think a partial cold turkey, with your years taken, can be disastrous

there do not exist better drug, worse drug

you think switching will give you relief, it is stop a poison and take another , what benefits ? but risks are real in switching

 

sorry for your suffering, do what you think is best for you,

cheer up !

[Healing]

Hi Lotty -- I'm so sorry you're feeling so badly.

 

I had the worst depression of my life in the notorious 5-9 month period post-taper. I really, really did not want to die, but, like you, I thought I might have to kill myself if it went on too long. But, it ended all by itself, and I have never had anything like that depression ever again. It's very possible that the depression you're feeling will lift by itself when you get to a different part of your taper.

 

If you really can't stand it any more, then you have to do whatever is necessary to keep yourself safe. That is your number one priority. Because you *will* eventually be done with this w/d and healing, and you have a fantastic life awaiting you on the other side.

 

Therefore, it is a reasonable option to quit your job and move in with family. That option should be on the table. Many people have had to take that option. Then, when they finish recovering, they can go back to a more independent, ambitious life.

 

Much as I hate these meds, when it's a case of survival, I support going on another med. From my understanding of your history, I think it does not work for you to go back up on the Paxil, right? So, either take the Xanax more consistently. Or, as Sur mentioned, Prozac is probably the safest of the SSRIs.

 

As NP said, it is possible the Xanax is contributing to your depression. If you really think about it, did the bad depression come on at the same time you started using Xanax more?

 

I see no reason at all to do a fast taper. I think that would be harmful.

 

You *have* options. You really do. It's great you're reaching out for support and brainstorming. It will become more clear what to do.

[Lor95]

Hi Stan,

I know what you're saying and always appreciate your advice.

I really don't want to switch, I'm asking about ADDING a SMALL dose of something else to help me through the taper. I may be mistaken but I believe Sur did something similar? Sur, are you the member from the other place who was being helped out by a Dr. P?

Stan, was the taper hell for you all the way through?

[Lor95]

Thank you Healing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks you so much. And Stan too.

How fast did you taper Healing? Was the tapering hell too, or just after getting to 0?

By the way, the depression did not start with the addition of xanax. I only decided to give in to the xanax when I really couldn't bear the alternating depression/terror feelings and I was really starting to consider ways of ending it all.

[angie007]

Hi Lotty,

 

Well i will tell all here, much the same as ive told you all along,

Wd is HELL, it really is, and like i said, as one symptom lifts, another is soon back to replace it,

dont panic, some are more tolerable than others lol.

 

I also think it would be a big mistake to ct or do a fast wean, i also think you should continue to do

the slow taper, and use the zanax as and when you feel the need.

The doctors should be helping you out here!!!! they put you on this stuff, and they should see you off it safely.

 

For now, please rest assured, that we all understand that place your in, just know that it will get better,

lean on us for support as and when you need, some tapers are just so much harder than others, and remember!!!

if depression is the reason you went to paxil in the first place, it will still be there when you quit!!!!

Paxil cures nothing, it is only a band aid for a short time, when you start to pull that band aid away,

the original problem reemerges. Plus other stuff you never had before, thats how it works, to cure one thing, we

get a myriad of other things too, which thankfully seem to be short lived.

 

Ive seen the switch over to another med so many times, and have to say for many, it just does not work,

Thank God we are not all the same.

Go to your family hun, let them take care of you, so long as you are safe, nothing else matters,

and know that whatever you decide to do, we will all be here for you.

You can still do this!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even though this taper has been horrendous.

 

You be gentle on yourself, take time for you, and stay safe and well.

All my love anj x

[Lor95]

Thank you my dear friend Anj.

BTW, I didn't go onto this drug for depression, it was anxiety, and nothing like the terror I feel during withdrawal.

I have only experienced depression during my taper attempts.

Did anyone feel the desperate need to sleep but keep jolting awake in terror?

[summer]

Hi Lor... I'm so sorry that it's so difficult for you right now. I just wanted to mention that several years ago I switched from Paxil to Prozac. I believe I had tapered to 5mg Paxil and made the switch at that point. It worked very well for me... and I was able to taper the Prozac with no problems. I know that switching doesn't work for everyone, but it did help me.

 

If your family is willing to support you at this time, that sure sounds like a safe haven. Their support would be so healing for you.

 

Sending healing thoughts and positive vibes to you...

[stan]

Stan, was the taper hell for you all the way through?

 

half hell ,but at 9 months off to maybe 15 months off, i had severe akathisia standing and in that period i was in hell, and since have difficult to stand (off balance)

[Healing]

Thank you Healing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks you so much. And Stan too.

How fast did you taper Healing? Was the tapering hell too, or just after getting to 0?

By the way, the depression did not start with the addition of xanax. I only decided to give in to the xanax when I really couldn't bear the alternating depression/terror feelings and I was really starting to consider ways of ending it all.

 

I tapered off Paxil over 20 months. Soon after I started, I added Prozac to help with the severe muscle tightness. This was the thinking in 2003. I do not advise this now. My taper was extremely hard physically -- neck and back muscle tightening -- but only moderately hard emotionally. I took the Prozac to help the physical symptoms, which it didn't, but it might have protected me from the emotional symptoms. There's no way to know.

 

I jumped off the Prozac in two drops a month after finishing the Paxil. I maybe should have tapered off the Prozac, too. Who knows. The Paxil taper was hard and I had to use liquid for the last 8 mg.

 

OK, I'm trying to see if we can figure out more about this horrible depression and I don't know your history well. You say you've only experienced this depression during the taper attempts. Can you say a bit more? Did it hit when you got to a certain dose? How many separate times has this happened?

[Lor95]

Hi guys,

Just want you all to know that I'm still around.....I didn't give up everything and go to my family in the end. After a consultation with my therapist we decided it might not be best for me, however it remains an option.

I'm still in a very bad way but have improved marginally from the way I was feeling when I started this thread. Still on 17.5mg (over 3 weeks now).

Just want to say hello to everyone.

[stan]

hello Lor95,

 

stay more time at 17,5 and after a while a new drop maybe...

i am glad you are better

[Neuroplastic]

Good to hear you're better (even if it's still not a quantum leap). The better time will eventually come. Hang in there, Lor!