Hi, so glad to be here! -- from Lor95

[Punarbhava]

To dear Pun - I understand and appreciate completely what you're saying and why.

I have read practically all your posts elsewhere and I have put together what I believe is a fair idea of what situation you were in while tapering doxepin, and that it was unique to YOU and may not apply to others who have had success with other tapering percentages and strategies. However, I still feel it will be valuable to me (if you care to share some of it - I am also aware that some things are traumatic for you to talk about at this point in your recovery)....as indeed will EVERYONE's opinion.

 

And rest assured, the repercussions of any decision I make according to someone's suggestion/experience will NEVER be held against them. I just want as much information as people are willing to give to that might shed some light on my situation and how to proceed.

 

Okay Lor. thank you for letting me know this. That calms my concern in regard to your reactions. However, I'm still cautious and concerned about other factors.

 

I will wait for others to respond. Don't concern yourself with this area. You have enough to worry about at this time.

 

just responded to Stan's post since, he brought forward some good points and I used it as a guide to further articulate many points I wished to present. Maybe this will help you but it would most beneficial if you could respond to my questions since, we will be able to better gauge how each taper is playing out for you.

 

No rush though. Take your time.

 

 

Punar

[Lor95]

Okay, this will be rather long, I apologise, but I think it's important. It's my history before this current taper. If I write it down all at once, it's here permanently for reference and may contain some useful information.

 

In about 2003, I experienced what I now suspect to be tolerance after 8 years of being on paroxetine 20mg. I had had negligible side effects whilst on the drug until then, it kept me blissfully "paxilated". Suddenly I experienced panic, anxiety and depression out of nowhere, just out of the blue. I waited it out a month or so but it seemed to be getting worse over time.

 

The doctor upped my dose to 30mg.It was a bit of a difficult transition at first (I remember having my first ever brain zap, and other strange things like having sensory-type difficulties going down stairs) but within a month or so I stabilised. However, I always remember thinking that I never felt as good stable on 30mg as I had when I was stable at 20mg. But things were good enough.

 

In 2007 I decided I wanted off the drug. Over a few months (maybe 3 or 4), I went down in 2.5mg drops to 20mg with minimal problems. I thought this was going to be a piece of cake. I think I stayed at 20mg for a few months.

 

Then I switched to liquid and made my way down to about 15mg (I can't remember how quickly I did this I'm afraid, but not all at once). At 15mg, I started feeling mild depression. Over the course of a month or so, I deteriorated slightly and then suddenly woke up one morning in such a state of terror/horror that didn't lift for hours and hours. I don't know how I slept that night (even with the use of a benzo which I hadn't used for years). The next morning I was so terrified that I went straight back up to 20mg (tablet). I continued to work only because I was too scared to be alone, so I wasn't completely incapacitated, but I was bad.

 

However, I didn't stabilise properly. I thought I was getting better after 2 weeks or so, then bam, horrific panic would set in again. Still, I soldiered on determined not to go back up to 30mg. After about 3 months from the updose my panic became deep depression (well, what I thought was severe depression, at least I wasn't having severe cognitive problems and since then I have experienced depression on a deeper level).

 

I read all the self-help books I could find and found coping techniques that seemed to help. I was still having waves and windows, not stable, but as I seemed to be improving generally over time and the techniques seemed to be helping me with this, I decided withdrawal must all be in my head after all. So after just after a year since the updose and a period of stability for a couple of months, I was determined to give weaning another go, convinced that I had enough coping tools in my toolbox and that all this AD w/d business was rubbish.

 

I switched to liquid 20mg again and decreased the dose (roughly) by 0.5 mg every week or so. I was a bit gung-ho about it because remember, I though withdrawal was all "in my head". I had a few bad moments here and there but nothing major. It took about 2.5-3 months to get to 15mg again. At 15mg I started feeling more severe anxiety but I thought I would be able to handle it with my coping techniques...it would pass. But seeing as withdrawal seemed to be getting harder I decided to hold just in case. Even if I had gone a bit too fast I would eventually stabilise, right? I switched from liquid to half a 30mg tablet so holding wouldn't be such a hassle practically.

 

Three months I managed to hold at 15mg, all the time getting worse. As I held, I started having more severe and new symptoms, such as indescribable nonsense running through my head, especially during early morning "sleep" (it was more like a stupor), episodes of confusion, terrible memory problems, difficulty following conversations, feeling I didn't have the capacity for complex thought, difficulty with simple word retrieval, feeling like I had lost the capacity to do even simple things, depersonalisation, and terror and depression that was now completely off the scale. I seemed to be getting less and less periods of short relief, and was becoming suicidal. I didn't see any option other to updose to 20mg again so I did so out of desperation.

 

Some cognitive difficulties seemed to improve slowly after a couple of weeks of the updose, but I also experienced other terrifying mental phenomena I hadn't felt before (I will not detail them here as they are pretty scary)...maybe I was now very sensitive and the sudden updose was having negative effects too. I was still suicidal pretty much daily, especially in the mornings so I started to take xanax during that time (up to, but not always, 1mg a day); the xanax only took the edge off enough for me to consider staying alive. Whenever I felt I could lay off the xanax a bit I slowed it down gradually over weeks. PLEASE, I understand the danger of benzos, but when it's a case of a "helper" or possibly doing something stupid, staying alive is the most important thing. Anyway, I really feel in my experience that paroxetine is the stronger beast and the tackling of that must take priority.

 

It took me about 4 months after this updose to have a decent day here and there but no stabilisation. I was still on xanax but less. I thought I might be improving slowly, slowly in general, but I was not good at all.

 

Last November, 6 months after the updose to 20mg, the pharmacy gave me a generic form of paroxetine. Now, this may be a red herring, but about 2 weeks on that generic I had good days, better than previous (although I was relatively ok during the few weeks before I took it too). All of a sudden after 2 weeks I was back in hell, similar to what I felt at 15mg, maybe not quite as severe but severe nonetheless. I immediately switched back to brand and decided at that point that I couldn't stay on this drug if I had become so sensitive...it was limiting my life so much, I had to make a move.

 

This is when I began my current wean.

[Lor95]

Pun,

 

I will answer your questions later today.

I thought it important first to give a bit of history.

I hope it's not too much for you system to handle, I know you can sometimes go into sensory overload. I have divided my story into manageable chunks. I hope that will help.

xxx

[Punarbhava]

 

You can't go by your tapering history to predict how much of a taper you need, you have to go by how your system is reacting.

 

I agree.

 

 

Withdrawal from Paxil gets more difficult as you lower the dose because Paxil inhibits its own metabolism. As you decrease the dose, it leaves your body faster.

 

Lor, Alto's bringing forward another important point that needs to be considered.

 

Have you contacted Dr. Healy? He has been working with people who have difficulty withdrawing no matter how small the decreases. It may be the Prozac switch would work for you. He may be able to refer you to a doctor in your area who knows how to do this.

 

Lor, I think Alto's suggestion re: Healey, is very much worth investigating. At least you will have access to a medical profession who is knowledgeable about WD. Due to this knowledge they will likely be more compassionate and thus, provide a form of psycyhological comfort and/or refer you to some supportive programs/groups etc.

 

 

Lor, I know you mentioned you didn't wish to do the prozac switch and that's okay and I understand why but Healey may be able to help you anyway. I think it's worth contacting him.

 

Because you have introduced xanax into the mix, your situaion becomes more complicated and Healey may be able to help you sort this out as well.

 

Punar

[Punarbhava]

Pun,

 

I will answer your questions later today.

 

Okay, no problem.

 

 

I thought it important first to give a bit of history.

I hope it's not too much for you system to handle, I know you can sometimes go into sensory overload. I have divided my story into manageable chunks. I hope that will help.

xxx

 

Thank you for taking all this into consideration. I appreciate how you presented things. I will print out your story since, it's easier for me to read from hard copy.

 

 

Punar

[Lor95]

Hi Punar and Alto,

 

Yes, I think I will contact Dr Healey.

 

But I think support from this site is important as well.....you guys have actually BEEN through this.

 

I have decided to do a small drop tomorrow (to 15.5) to see if it helps.

 

Punar, do you think, in your experience and that of seeing others in tolerance w/d, that there may be a cumulative effect of too long holds.....just as there is a cumulative effect of not waiting long enough between drops when tapering from a stable dose? I'm just throwing this out there, as I've realised it MAY be a possibility in my case, as some of my holds have been long and some short.

 

Thanks and blessings,

Lor

[Punarbhava]

Hi Punar and Alto,

 

Yes, I think I will contact Dr Healey.

 

But I think support from this site is important as well.....you guys have actually BEEN through this.

 

I have decided to do a small drop tomorrow (to 15.5) to see if it helps.

 

I think we can all agree, based on your story, that up-dosing is not an option. There's only one way to go and that's to continue tapering.

 

The percentage of your taper and holding time will have to be figured out. We'll see how this next drop plays out for you.

 

Punar, do you think, in your experience and that of seeing others in tolerance w/d, that there may be a cumulative effect of too long holds.....just as there is a cumulative effect of not waiting long enough between drops when tapering from a stable dose?

 

I can understand why this question would enter your mind but the answer is "no". There's no "cummulative negative effect" from holding too long.

 

However, once one makes their next dose reduction, (providing it's the right percentage) you should experience, what I call "a pause" (initial feelings of relief). This appearance of this pause is dependent upon the half-life of the drug. In other words, once half the drug level has dropped in your system, your brain will "pause" and think "hey, what just happened?". It will pause and as soon as it recognizes and starts to feel the drop of the next half-life of the drug, WD symptoms will start to set in.

 

This WD phase can last a couple of weeks, or less or more. However, once this phase is complete (receptor upregulation)you should experience a bit if relief. How long this relief lasts is different for each person as well as dependent upon the degree of tolerance etc.

 

In my siuation, I would make a dose reduction. 24 hours later I felt the "pause" (relief in symptoms) since, the half life of my particular AD was 11- 24 hours.

 

On the second day (from that last dose reduction) WD set in for a good week or longer. Then I would experience one or two days of improvement but if I held for one day longer, violent WD would erupt. So I learned to tailor my taper and make my next dose reduction within 24 hours following the two day of relief.

 

Now, as I got down to lower doses my holding time was only 11 days. Do NOT follow my tapering schedule. Each person must customize their taper schedule according to their particular situation.

 

I hope you can use some of this as a guide to assist you in learning how to read the sequence of events that occur following each drop.

 

 

I'm just throwing this out there, as I've realised it MAY be a possibility in my case, as some of my holds have been long and some short.

 

 

It's good that you brought forward this question. You need to understand and sort out these things to rid your mind of any confusion.

 

 

Like I mentioned, I think you can pretty much scratch this scenario off your list since, IMHO it's not an issue playing out.

 

See, your brain doesn't take long to recognized a drop in dose, no matter how long you have held at a dose. The drug-half life factor is what's involved.

 

Dear Alto, do jump in whenever you feel the need to make clarifications and/or further articulations or even correct me. I won't be the least bit offended.

 

I still suffer cognitive impairments. If you wish to question anything that I'm presenting please do so. I know what I'm trying to write, but due to cognitive and computer sensitivities I don't always relay my thoughts as effectively as I wish.

 

I'm using simplistic terminology since, it's easier for me ATM.

 

Lor, keep a detailed log of this last drop and post it so we can observe what is occuring and when etc.

 

 

Punar

[Lor95]

Punar,

 

You are a true angel for giving of yourself when you are obviously still experiencing distress. I just want you to know how very much I appreciate it.

 

Yes, I agree, I should drop and detail how this drop pans out for me.

 

I'm still in the process of answering your previous questions, I am writing them out on paper first then I will type them out. I thought it important first to fill you all in on my history and I don't want to overwhelm everyone with too much information all at once.

 

Best wishes,

Lor

[Punarbhava]

Punar,

 

You are a true angel for giving of yourself when you are obviously still experiencing distress. I just want you to know how very much I appreciate it.

 

Thank you Lor for appreciating my efforts. Believe me, I know only too well how very scary the situation is for you.

 

Yes, I agree, I should drop and detail how this drop pans out for me.

 

I'm still in the process of answering your previous questions, I am writing them out on paper first then I will type them out. I thought it important first to fill you all in on my history and I don't want to overwhelm everyone with too much information all at once.

 

Don't worry about overwhelming with too much information Lor. It's important to give as much information as possible, since, this is the only way for us to try to figure things out. Partial info. is detrimental to this whole process.

 

BTW, I apologize for throwing so much at you at once, but my aim is to get as many thoughts and info relayed ASAP, since, I do have days when I get hit with paralyzing mental fatigue which renders me into moronic states (lol).

 

I need to relay another very important point before I forget. Some people, depending upon the degree of tolerance and sensitivity, can be extremely sensitive to any slight drug dosage variation that can occur day to day when measuring and consuming one's daily dose.

 

In such cases, accuracy is critical. Inaccuracy can result in creating more suffering and thus, disrupt one's ability to observe a general pattern to each wean. It will create more confusion to the brain and CNS.

 

I don't know what method you are using to titrate but please ensure that your measuring methods are producing accurate amounts each day.

 

Hugs,

 

 

Punar

[Lor95]

 

 

I need to relay another very important point before I forget. Some people, depending upon the degree of tolerance and sensitivity, can be extremely sensitive to any slight drug dosage variation that can occur day to day when measuring and consuming one's daily dose.

 

In such cases, accuracy is critical. Inaccuracy can result in creating more suffering and thus, disrupt one's ability to observe a general pattern to each wean. It will create more confusion to the brain and CNS.

 

I don't know what method you are using to titrate but please ensure that your measuring methods are producing accurate amounts each day.

 

Hugs,

 

 

Punar[/color]

 

Hi again Punar,

 

I am using an electronic scale and shaving tablets. I am quite particular about the way I do it and weigh each tablet several times before assigning it a weight and then weigh the shaved remainder several times till I am happy with its accuracy.

I know liquid would probably give a greater degree of accuracy, but the way I see it, I have been ingesting this medicine in a particular form for so long that I don't want to rock the boat in changing to another formulation. Even the generic gives me problems now - I never used to notice in the early days. My last 2 taper attempts were with liquid and they were both failures, so I'm reluctant to add this variable into the mix. I have heard of several people having trouble switching to liquid.

Well, at least this is my thinking at this point in time.

 

Is titrating any different than switching to liquid? I imagine you dissolve the tablet itself to titrate; do you know if this changes the composition/absorption in any way?

 

With warm wishes and a big healing hug,

Lor

[Altostrata]

Pun, I think you have a better understanding of tolerance withdrawal.

[Lor95]

Pun, I think you have a better understanding of tolerance withdrawal.

 

Hi Alto,

 

Just wanted to say that I value your support too and appreciate you following my thread.

I hope karma exists and that it repays you in some glorious way for all your work on this site.

 

Warm wishes,

Lor

[Punarbhava]

Hi again Punar,

 

I am using an electronic scale and shaving tablets. I am quite particular about the way I do it and weigh each tablet several times before assigning it a weight and then weigh the shaved remainder several times till I am happy with its accuracy.

 

Excellent. It appears that you are taking measures to ensure accuracy. I'm glad to hear this.

 

 

I will admit that I have absolutely no knowledge in regard to utilizing the scale method. So, I can't comment any further regarding that subject.

 

 

I know liquid would probably give a greater degree of accuracy,

 

I will admit that I'm not well versed regarding the intricacies of each method. I do know of many people who used the scale method throughout their entire taper.

 

It can be difficult measuring out teeny doses with just about any method, especially below one mg.

 

However, I believe Alto mentioned in Phil's thread (I think) that she was able to make teeny, dose reductions via liquid form of the drug via syringe method.

 

 

but the way I see it, I have been ingesting this medicine in a particular form for so long that I don't want to rock the boat in changing to another formulation.

 

I hear you and I believe me I understand. Those who are in severe forms of tolerance WD have such extreme sensitivities that many have not done well switching over to liquid forms of the drug.

 

There are several reasons this can occur but to be honest, I'm not any expert on this and I'm only relaying anecdotal reports nor have I researched this since, it wasn't applicable to my situation, but some people have mentioned that the liquid form contains ingredients that they reacted do.

 

Also, a problem occurs IF the liquid version happens to be generic and there can be variations in drug potency between generics as well. I know from personal experience (long before I ever developed tolerance to Doxepin that I felt a difference (slight but noticeable) between two generics: Apo-Doxepin and Novo-Doxepin. I noticed an even more significant difference between Brand name and Generic.

 

So, I learned, long before I ever deveoped tolerance or tapered the first time, that I needed to stick to the SAME generic version. I also told my pharmacy "NO substitutions".

 

So, if I could feel a signifcant enough difference before I developed tolerance to the drug, imagine how much more profoundly I would feel this difference once I developed complete tolerance to the drug.

 

With all that said, my sensitivity is not unique, many people notice the same and it especially becomes a concern when on has developed a significant degree of tolerance WD.

 

Even the generic gives me problems now - I never used to notice in the early days.

 

I believe you based on what I have articulated above. Worth mentioning: one can become more sensitive as one tapers down to lower doses. Your problems with generics could be as I mentioned above however, it could be due to a measurement discrepency re: not being able to accurately calculate the equivalent dosage that equaled the dry measurement dose.

 

I don't know, for example, if say one mg dry cut from a pill equals 1 mg of liquid. I don't know if there is an equality in potency. Again, I know nothing about this aspect at this time. Alto likely knows more about this than I.

 

With all that said, apparently there can be up to 20 percent difference between brand name and generics.

 

 

My last 2 taper attempts were with liquid and they were both failures,

 

the failure could be due to some of the reasons I mentioned above.

 

so I'm reluctant to add this variable into the mix. I have heard of several people having trouble switching to liquid.

 

Yes, I understand the reluctance. I too heard of too many people having problems and thus, I decided NOT to switch to liquid. I was in such a severely sensitive state that I couldn't risk exposing my CNS and brain to even the slightest change.

 

However, with that said, it became impossible to accurately measure below 1 mg and thus, I jumped off at that point since, there was no benefit to continue tapering beyond that point. I've seen too many people taper below 1 mg and it didn't reduce their suffering nor length of post WD.

 

In fact, those of us who are in the severest tolerance state feel more relief getting off the drug around 1 mg since, staying on the drug longer only keeps the tolerance factor playing out. Once you are off the drug, you only have to deal with regular WD rather than a combo of classic WD and tolerance (when tapering).

 

 

Well, at least this is my thinking at this point in time.

 

I completely understand and you know what.....at this point you need to stick with what is familiar and comfortable. I was in such severe states that measuring out my nightly dose was a real nightmare since, I suffered very badly from tolerance induced OCD, anxiety, terror, fear etc. and the stress of being afraid to make even one error in measurement shot my system into even worse states.

 

Like you, I would check and recheck the accuracy of my dosage before ingesting it.

 

So, I couldn't afford to switch over to liquid. I was in too bad a state and my mind was a complete mess. The day I took my last dose was a huge day of freedom for me.

 

Is titrating any different than switching to liquid?

 

Yes, it is different because when you liquid titrate you are still using the pill or capsule form of the drug.

 

I imagine you dissolve the tablet itself to titrate; do you know if this changes the composition/absorption in any way?

 

 

No, it's doesn't change the composition of the drug as long as it's mixed with water. However, at present, I would stick to your current method for as long as possible so you don't rock the boat in this way.

 

Those whose tolerance WD is in the milder or moderate zones are more able to adapt to minor changes without incurring serious consequences. However, it sounds like you are in a sensitive enough state and thus, even miniscule changes can be felt. For now, stick to your present method.

 

 

Worth noting, some people must utilize the liquid versions of the drug since, their AD is not available in small doses or they have extended-release versions which they may not be able to crush etc.

 

With warm wishes and a big healing hug,

Lor

 

Thank you Lor and I send the same to you!

 

 

Punar

[Lor95]

One more question Pun......

 

In your humble experience, and in your observation of others in tolerance, considering the history I presented to you, do you think it is possible I am in tolerance? I say this because the first time I updosed I DID stabilise eventually, although it took about a year. This last time I updosed, I seemed to be having even more trouble, although SMALL improvements were made after about a month or so and continued up to the 6 month mark until that damned generic (but even with those small improvements, most of it was still hell).

 

It seems very obvious that you were in tolerance based on your very precise updose pattern of feeling relief, then bad again, relief, then bad again.

My pattern is not so precise.

 

However, it is obvious to me that stabilisation no longer seems to be possible for me at 20mg.

 

Big hugs,

Lor

[Lor95]

Day 1 at 15.5 mg.

 

Morning on a par with previous mornings, slept till about 4 or 5 in the morning when I was disrupted by anxiety and a strange cognitive/fear type sensation that I can't describe - some of these sensations are so bizarre that when they pass I can no longer describe them. "Dozed" fitfully until about 6.30 when I got up and got on the computer to distract myself.

Tried to keep calm till I could get new prescription at the pharmacy but constant moderate level of anxiety/depression.

 

Ingestion of the new dose at 10 am.

 

At about 11.30 or tried to have a nap, must have managed to sleep (not peacefully) and awoke with a start about an hour later filled with sheer pure organic terror. It was like a traumatic "shock" to wake up. Took a long time for my eyes to focus and back of neck in particular and arms tingling all over. I felt pure desperation. I have managed to breathe, breathe and calm down somewhat but now my system still feels hijacked by a very high level of anxiety and fear.

I experienced episodes to this extent of fear just before my last updose to 20 mg and a couple of weeks into my updose. Very severe.

 

I doubt that this could be so quickly a reaction to my decrease, but I'm not sure.

Also, the last few days have been very, very bad so it could be an exacerbation of that.

 

I think my main reason for documenting this is that I would like reassurance that fear like this is not unheard of and does not mean there is no hope for me.

 

Pun, I know you don't go much into detail about your symptoms but they have been very severe. Does this sort of experience surprise you?

 

Lor

[Nadia]

Hi Lor,

 

What you describe in terms of your cognitive fear strangeness and waking up with terror from a nap after sleeping fitfully describes what happens to me to a T. This only started happening to me a few months after I quit cold turkey and started getting anxiety. The terror part is especially strange... I've tried a few times to take naps during the day, even knowing it's going to happen, to try to explore and understand the sensation. What is it that I'm afraid of? I have no idea... maybe afraid of falling asleep and not being "in control". I feel fear as I fall asleep as well... I start getting into that dream state of disconnected images, and it takes a very, very dark turn and everything seems extremely ominous. My guess is that it is part of the "fight or flight" response. In my case, my cortisol is high, which probably indicates my sympathetic nervous system is on overdrive, and that may be the cause. I also feel a tingling burning sensation all throughout my body, which intensifies if I try to rest or sleep.

[Lor95]

Hi Lor,

 

What you describe in terms of your cognitive fear strangeness and waking up with terror from a nap after sleeping fitfully describes what happens to me to a T. This only started happening to me a few months after I quit cold turkey and started getting anxiety. The terror part is especially strange... I've tried a few times to take naps during the day, even knowing it's going to happen, to try to explore and understand the sensation. What is it that I'm afraid of? I have no idea... maybe afraid of falling asleep and not being "in control". I feel fear as I fall asleep as well... I start getting into that dream state of disconnected images, and it takes a very, very dark turn and everything seems extremely ominous. My guess is that it is part of the "fight or flight" response. In my case, my cortisol is high, which probably indicates my sympathetic nervous system is on overdrive, and that may be the cause. I also feel a tingling burning sensation all throughout my body, which intensifies if I try to rest or sleep.

 

 

Hi Nadia,

 

First, god bless you for commenting on my post!

Yes, I can tell by your description you know what I'm on about!

You want to nap because you're exhausted from all this battering to your nervous system, and also for some blessed relief. You know that you're not going to sleep peacefully yet you try anyway. You don't really sleep, just go into some sort of disconnected state, and then you're jolted awake in blind terror.

Do you relate?

Diabolical.

[Altostrata]

The "starts" that wake you up and the feeling of intense fear is your hypersensitive alerting system sounding an alarm. It's trying to keep you from becoming inattentive from sleeping too deeply.

 

Many of us have had this. It is a characteristic of withdrawal insomnia.

 

As Nadia mentioned elsewhere, and many others have reported, the "fear" seems to be physically generated and is not associated psychologically with thoughts or feelings in the normal way. It's a neuro-emotion.

 

Physically, it is probably a spurt of adrenaline with cortisol.

[Lor95]

The "starts" that wake you up and the feeling of intense fear is your hypersensitive alerting system sounding an alarm. It's trying to keep you from becoming inattentive from sleeping too deeply.

 

Many of us have had this. It is a characteristic of withdrawal insomnia.

 

As Nadia mentioned elsewhere, and many others have reported, the "fear" seems to be physically generated and is not associated psychologically with thoughts or feelings in the normal way. It's a neuro-emotion.

 

Physically, it is probably a spurt of adrenaline with cortisol.

 

Thanks Alto.

I'll read the piece on neuro-emotion.

Blessings,

Lor

[Punarbhava]

One more question Pun......

 

In your humble experience, and in your observation of others in tolerance, considering the history I presented to you, do you think it is possible I am in tolerance?

 

 

I think is probable. You seem to be exhibiting all the signs as indicated in your story. BTW, I printed out your story and reviewed it line for line (last night) and I have some comments but I will have to wait until later in the day to present them.

 

 

I say this because the first time I updosed I DID stabilise eventually, although it took about a year.

 

Lor, forgive my questioning here but I'm a bit confused since, your story stated that you did not FULLY stabilize re: "I never felt as good at 30 mgs as I did at 20 mgs".

 

Your story also states that when you updosed to 30mg: "within a month or so, I stabilized" In this post, you've stated that it took you about a year to stabilize.

 

Perhaps, I'm misinterpreting something here. It would be helpful if you could clarify since, I don't wish to misunderstand any details that could be of importance.color]

 

 

This last time I updosed, I seemed to be having even more trouble, although SMALL improvements were made after about a month or so and continued up to the 6 month mark until that damned generic (but even with those small improvements, most of it was still hell).

 

Sounds like tolerance WD to me. The degree of tolerance is individual but regardless of the degree, tolerance is tolerance. Some people can up-dose and take a while to stabilize ......gradually improving the longer they hold, however, at some point that improvement will poop out of them (IF one is in tolerance).

 

Here's the thing: an updose should manifest positive effects within a week to about 3 weeks and sustain those positive effects. If this does not occur then one has developed some level/degree of tolerance.

 

It seems very obvious that you were in tolerance based on your very precise updose pattern of feeling relief, then bad again, relief, then bad again.

My pattern is not so precise.

 

The relief I felt was VERY MINIMAL but I thought if I kept holding that things would eventually improve. Some of the updoses I held at for many weeks, being violently ill, despite the fact that the tiny bit of relief I felt from the dose increase poop-out after one week.

 

I desperately tried to keep holding at a dose praying that it would "take hold" but it never did. I only got worse.

 

So, while I stated that I obtained "relief" it was very marginal at best. TBH, my CNS was still in a very bad state when I updosed........ I was not functional but rather in a very altered state of existence in addition to tons of physical symptoms (long list of symptoms I never had the first time I tapered from Doxepin and the symptoms were to extreme proportions). My tolerance level was on the extreme scale.

 

However, it is obvious to me that stabilisation no longer seems to be possible for me at 20mg.

 

Your story pretty much indicates the exsitence of tolerance. IF you were not in tolerance you should stabilized after each small dose reduction (within approx. 3 weeks) providing there was adequate holding time between reductions. (approx. 3 weeks to a month)

 

The first time I tapered from my AD I made drops of 10 mgs at at time. The lower I got in dose the more stronger I felt the 10 mg drops. WD symptoms were becoming much more intense (more incapacitating) HOWEVER, they did not last more than a couple of weeks and I DID fully stabilize after each drop, regardlness of sick I was during each drop (towards the end of my rapid taper). This is "classic WD". Stabilization is achieved after each dose reduction.

 

 

Tolerance WD is a whole different beast and as I mentioned, the greater the degree of tolerance that one has developed, the greater the degree of suffering, not to mention, the more difficult it can be to navigate through the tapering process.

 

Those who are in milder, or moderate forms of tolerance will be able to follow a classic taper schedule and it will pretty much play out similarly, although they will likely be implementing a low percentage of dose reductions. In these categories it is advisable to HOLD AS LONG AS POSSIBLE since, it's beneficial to the overall recovery game (both short term and long term). This is the ideal way to go IF at all possible.

 

Many people in this category are able to hold for long periods of time between dose reductions but will never fully stabilize and are still suffering, however, they are still able to function in life, on some levels (although it's not easy).

 

However, as I mentioned, those in more severe states have a different game to play. One does not get to call the shots and control the rate of one's taper nor the percentage of the taper. Rather, the brain calls the shots and the best one can do is to pay attention and try to negotiate a strategy (figuring out how to taper and what percentage) to minimize (as much as possible) the degree of agitation and rebellion exhibited by the CNS and brain.

 

Lor, I still need to know the half-life of your AD. I'd do a search myself however, I wish to reserve my focus and time on responding to your posts since, my tolerance to computer exposure is limited and varies from day to day and even hour to hour.

 

 

Okay, I will post this and take some time away from the computer screen. I will respond more a bit later.

 

BTW, what you and Nadia have presented is not uncommon at all. It's WD plain and simple and has nothing to do with one's thoughts. In fact, the bizarre fears and thoughts are generated from overactivation of the the F&F response. Alto has posted a lot of info. about this subject so I will not expand upon it.

 

 

Our job is to learh to psychologically soothe ourselves as much as possible during the panic, fear, terror, horror and all other bizarre events that occur from a dysregulated CNS.

 

I experienced all that you both mention and to the extreme and alone to deal with it all, but the good news is ..........eventually the CNS learns to calm itself (as long as we don't interrrupt this "re-training" process by inviting psychoactive substances into the equation eg. any drugs and/or supplements/herbs that have psychoactive properties)

 

Our receptors cannot and will not learn to function on their own if we continually douse them with chemicals (natural or synthetic) altering the natural state that they are so desperately struggling to return to.

 

 

Punar

[Altostrata]

Lor is withdrawing from the evil Paxil, half-life 15-20 hours.

[Lor95]

Lor is withdrawing from the evil Paxil, half-life 15-20 hours.

 

Thanks Alto, yes I've seen figures that quote 16-21 hours, and 10-24 hours too.....so I wanted to be sure before I responded.

[Nadia]

You want to nap because you're exhausted from all this battering to your nervous system, and also for some blessed relief. You know that you're not going to sleep peacefully yet you try anyway. You don't really sleep, just go into some sort of disconnected state, and then you're jolted awake in blind terror.

Do you relate?

Diabolical.

 

EXACTLY. It is extremely frustrating. And can be quite frightening as well.

 

 

The "starts" that wake you up and the feeling of intense fear is your hypersensitive alerting system sounding an alarm. It's trying to keep you from becoming inattentive from sleeping too deeply.

 

It really helped me when Alto told me this before... at least I was able to separate from the fear of what was happening. It does seem like what happens as I try to fall asleep is this random firing of a million different neurons... I have all sorts of weird thoughts, and what is common to them is that they are foreign and dreadful. They are very resistant to me sending calming thoughts or anything... and it makes sense, since they are probably DESIGNED to be just that, so you don't fall asleep. So I tell myself over and over, hoping it will take hold sometime, that I am safe, and that even if I am not, what will happen will happen and surely I will wake up if necessary as I am normally a light sleeper anyway.

 

One spark of hopefulness... about two weeks ago I had one afternoon where I was able to doze off for about a half an hour with no feelings of dread. I felt weird, but it was manageable enough that I fell asleep for a tiny bit and felt refreshed afterwards. I had felt little to no anxiety that day and felt so hopeful that I was on my way out. These things come in cycles, so I am hoping for another moment like that sometime.

 

 

BTW, what you and Nadia have presented is not uncommon at all. It's WD plain and simple and has nothing to do with one's thoughts. In fact, the bizarre fears and thoughts are generated from overactivation of the the F&F response. Alto has posted a lot of info. about this subject so I will not expand upon it.

 

 

Our job is to learn to psychologically soothe ourselves as much as possible during the panic, fear, terror, horror and all other bizarre events that occur from a dysregulated CNS.

 

I experienced all that you both mention and to the extreme and alone to deal with it all, but the good news is ..........eventually the CNS learns to calm itself (as long as we don't interrupt this "re-training" process by inviting psychoactive substances into the equation eg. any drugs and/or supplements/herbs that have psychoactive properties)

 

Our receptors cannot and will not learn to function on their own if we continually douse them with chemicals (natural or synthetic) altering the natural state that they are so desperately struggling to return to.

 

 

Punar[/color]

 

Yes... it is so clear here that the thoughts are not the source of the feelings (as would perhaps be stressed in a cognitive behavioral take on this), but the other way around... the feelings being something physical mostly (if we can even divide the two... I think they are one and the same, mind and matter).

 

About the supplements, I go back and forth on this a lot... I DO take fish oils and vitamins and chromium picollinate and now Seriphos, hoping to help nudge my system toward healing. I worry about overdoing it and not letting it do its job. Acupuncture, for example, seems to really help me... except for yesterday it backfired. I start to wonder if I should maybe even hold off on THAT. It's a difficult balance to strike, as everything we do... eat, rest, exercise, look, touch, listen... has an altering effect of some kind. In trying to find homeostasis, I must do this in conjunction with my environment. I believe we are not separate from everything else that IS... I'm trying to find the right way of fitting with the "rest of me" that is everything else.

 

I hope, Lor, that you are able to get some rest somehow. I think that is the ONE most important thing we need, and unfortunately what our poor, confused nervous systems are fighting so hard against.

[Lor95]

 

 

Lor, forgive my questioning here but I'm a bit confused since, your story stated that you did not FULLY stabilize re: "I never felt as good at 30 mgs as I did at 20 mgs".

 

Your story also states that when you updosed to 30mg: "within a month or so, I stabilized" In this post, you've stated that it took you about a year to stabilize.

 

Perhaps, I'm misinterpreting something here. It would be helpful if you could clarify since, I don't wish to misunderstand any details that could be of importance.color]

 

Punar

 

 

I hope I can clarify this for you and not confuse you further, I am saying this also in empathy because certain cognitive deficits typical of severe w/d are manifesting themselves to me as well, I cannot even remember what I had for dinner last night or how I got to bed. And I'm having cognitive difficulty writing this post, but I desperately want to respond.

 

In about 2003, I went from 20mg to 30mg when I had what I now believe to be the first signs of poop-out. It was then that I stabilised in about a month or so, in that I no longer had episodes of panic, anxiety and depression, but I don't know....I wasn't really as "happy" in a sense as I was when I was stable at 20.

 

Then years later I weaned from 30 all the way to 15 mg with minimal problem. At 15mg I had an explosion of scary symptoms and IMMEDIATELY updosed to 20mg (not all the way to 30). This is when it took me a year to "stabilise" with waves and windows. When I decided to try to wean from 20 again it was after a period of a couple of months of feeling well - I believed at that point I had stabilised enough.

 

Then I tried again, again hitting symptoms at 15mg, but this time worse. This time I held and held hoping to eventually settle. I did not, it was getting worse. In addition I was having severe memory and cognitive issues. Updose to 20 again. Stabilisation on any real level not really happening. Some symptoms improving but very very slowly, and then a big crash after generic.

 

Time to try again.....which brings us to the present wean.

 

 

Does this help Pun?

[Punarbhava]

 

Lor is withdrawing from the evil Paxil, half-life 15-20 hours.

 

I sent a post to thank you, as soon as I noticed your post Alto (which was hours a go) ..but somehow it didn't go through. Perhaps I forgot to click on "add reply" (lol) In any case, thank you for forwarding this to me so quickly.

 

Thanks Alto, yes I've seen figures that quote 16-21 hours, and 10-24 hours too.....so I wanted to be sure before I responded.

 

not to worry Lor. It gives me a good enough idea. Like you, I searched for Doxepin's half life (a few years ago) and found different figures.

 

What's important here is a general time line. It's clear that half of your drug will drop within 24 hours of this last wean that you made.

 

In my case, WD manifested the SECOND day.

Doxepin has the similar half-life of Paxil. Some people excrete the drug faster than others so you may not feel WD set in at the 24 hour mark but may feel it a day later.

 

However your dose reduction is so tiny and I don't know if you're going to feel this as significantly as I did since, I was forced to make 10 percent drops.

 

It may be harder for you to see a pattern with such small drops.

 

We'll have to see how the next few days play out for you.

 

 

Pun

 

[Punarbhava]

Dear Lor......

 

 

Lor, the last thing I wish to do is cause any stress, frustration or fear in any way, however, it's impossible not to discuss the influence of xanax in this whole equation.

 

After reading your story, and viewing your use of xanax I decided I should read this whole thread. Believe me.......... Rhi, Alex and Neuro have presented the stark realities about xanax. I have LIVED the reality of xanax addiction and WD and consequently researched the subject along with witnessing many in benzo support groups over the years.

 

Like you, I thought I was protecting myself by not taking xanax every day however, what Rhi and Alex have presented is very accurate. It truly pains me to inform you of this but I have a conscience that I have to live with. If I avoid this subject, as per your request, I do you harm. My intention to help in whatever ways, however ignoring the potential influence that xanax may have in your current situation and solely focusing on Paxil, will seriously short-change you.

 

Alto also presented an excellent description, in Rob's thread, regarding the subject of introducing other drugs into the mix of any single WD event. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=3&t=1064&qpid=9345

 

It's a recipe for confusion to the CNS, not to mention, next to impossible to sort out which drug is causing what symptoms since, benzo and AD WD symptoms are pretty much the same. Trust me, I've been through both types of WD and I can attest to this, not to mention witnessed people in both benzo and AD forums.

 

 

Please forgive me Lor for what I'm about to state here but it's very easy to be seduced into believing that xanax is not part of the equation. Again, Alex and Rhi's posts clearly explain why and how things can turn bad, in a short time. I won't repeat any of what they have written..since it was all meticulously and accurately presented. I'm not judging you nor condemning you in anyway, since, I myself did not understand how xanax was sneaking up on me (in the past).

 

 

The use of xanax is highly relevant in this whole equation. At this point, one way to find out if xanax is playing out in this whole scenario could be to pay attention to how you feel when you take xanax and the hours following, taking into consideration the half-life factor.

 

Rhi has described things to a "T". I LIVED the reality of what she has described. I wish I could say that she, I and Alex are being alarmists and/or drama queens but trust me, we are not. We are stating facts about this drug that have been long known and even written about by a few doctors. I have a least three books by medical professionals (one being a Pharmacist who wrote about this many years ago).

 

Many doctors will no longer prescribe xanax due to it's extremely short half-life, and the high addiction potential that can occur within a very short period of time. It binds more tightly to the receptors sites than all other benzos, hence the rapid addiction potential.

 

Years ago, prior to this recent AD WD, I had no idea I was experiencing xanax interdose WD. This could be what is playing out in your situation, at this point in time. This cannot be discounted.

 

It may not have been an issue earlier in your story but as your story progresses and the continued use of xanax, (even if intermittent) and the up and down dosing of this drug (as Rhi has skillfully articulated) could certainly be an equal factor in all this.

 

Like you, I THOUGHT judicial use of the drug was protecting me from developing any problems. I would take it for 2 or 3 days (lowest dose 0.25 mg) and then abstain for several days before taking it again. I had NO idea how potent it was. I thought the low dosage number meant minimal potency. Rhi outlined the equivalency rate of xanax to Valium. This is a medically documented fact and thus, not an exaggeration nor someone's opinion. I developed tolerance to 0.25 mgs in a short period of time.

 

 

I read your account of today's events and how they played out. Did you take a dose of xanax today and if so what time of day? This could explain some of the sequence of events.

 

 

I know this is extremely distressing to even think about however, I'm trying to help you sort out what is causing what and when and why. There is no way I can solely focus on Paxil since, this would be completely irresponsible.

 

I really hesitate to post this since, the last thing I wish to do is cause you any degree of distress and I certainly don't wish to disrespect you by violating your request however, I believe it would be wise for you to post when you take xanax, how much, the time of day.

 

Now, you may be right re: xanax is not a problem at this time and I pray that this indeed is the case. However, there is no way to know for certain unless you track your use, time of day and the manifestation of symptoms at various times of the day

 

I sincerely apologize if this post has upset you. I hope that my intentions are being interpreted as an act of concern rather than challenging your power of observation and intuition regarding your current situation. Many extremely intelligent people have been fooled by xanax.

 

If you wish for me to drop the subject from this point forward, I will. My conscience in now clear however, I will admit that I have much distress about posting my thoughts since, I never wish to create anymore fear or anxiety for you.

 

On the other hand, if I remain silent, for your comfort I fail you in a huge way. This I cannot live with.

 

Sincerely Wishing You Healing, Peace and Recovery.

 

 

Pun

[Lor95]

 

 

I know this is extremely distressing to even think about however, I'm trying to help you sort out what is causing what and when and why. There is no way I can solely focus on Paxil since, this would be completely irresponsible.

 

I really hesitate to post this since, the last thing I wish to do is cause you any degree of distress and I certainly don't wish to disrespect you by violating your request however, I believe it would be wise for you to post when you take xanax, how much, the time of day.

 

Now, you may be right re: xanax is not a problem at this time and I pray that this indeed is the case. However, there is no way to know for certain unless you track your use, time of day and the manifestation of symptoms at various times of the day

 

I sincerely apologize if this post has upset you. I hope that my intentions are being interpreted as an act of concern rather than challenging your power of observation and intuition regarding your current situation. Many extremely intelligent people have been fooled by xanax.

 

If you wish for me to drop the subject from this point forward, I will. My conscience in now clear however, I will admit that I have much distress about posting my thoughts since, I never wish to create anymore fear or anxiety for you.

 

On the other hand, if I remain silent, for your comfort I fail you in a huge way. This I cannot live with.

 

Sincerely Wishing You Healing, Peace and Recovery.

 

 

Pun

 

 

Dear Pun,

 

I completely understand.

I will from now on add xanax to my description of events.

It may, without doubt be part of the problem and what everyone says about adding any psychotropic drugs to the mix compromises your receptors striving to reach their natural state makes complete sense.

 

Seeing as I have only taken it consistently at this level (0.5mg, twice a day = 1mg, I know it's a stout dose) for about a month may work in my favour. Although I have been taking it on and off since my last updose in May 2010, I have managed to go without it since for 3 months at a time twice...this may bode well too.

 

What I would like to add is that when things got really bad last time before I updosed last May, I was experiencing pretty much what I am experiencing now, with even more severe depression on top, WITHOUT taking xanax. I could no longer work, getting myself to eat was a nightmare. I was in such a state. Lifting myself out of bed was an effort of herculean proportions, yet I couldn't stay in bed because of the extreme anxiety. Do you relate to this Pun?

 

I made the decision to take xanax out of desperation, because I truly thought suffering to this degree could not be tolerated by any human being, and there was no way I could recover from such suffering. Where I had had moments of relief every few days or so, it now seemed that at that point I was getting none. I did not consider the prospect of DROPPING, I had not done enough reading and it did not even enter my mind.

 

Pun, it would reassure me greatly to know that you have experienced suffering to this extreme and managed to do so WITHOUT adding extra drugs. I just didn't think it was possible at the time I made my decision to add xanax. I thought I was the only one. I relate to you, because I know your suffering was extreme, but YOU ARE MAKING IT. I know that everyone thinks their own suffering is the worst, but if I were to list my symptoms it would not make pretty reading and so I am reluctant to do so. But at the same time I so desperately need the reassurance that someone else has experienced them and LIVED THROUGH them. Maybe then I could start laying off the xanax before it too becomes an added problem.

 

Anyway, I will now revise my description of Day 1 adding xanax consumption to the equation.

 

Sincerest best wishes to you,

Lor

[angie007]

Hi Lots,

 

JUst have to share this with you, in relation to that which you have written above.

 

I can so associate with the way you are feeling as i struggled really hard through out my long taper, with so many horrendous symptoms,wether indeed they were wose,the same oir better than you are experiencing right now, who can tell me, but believe me, i know that feeling well, " how can any human being endure such physical and mental emotional pain, i didnt know either", but we do, for some reason we do seem to survive.

 

I now would like to share a story that belongs to someone else, someone i befriended from the other site, many years ago, that began with his use of seroxat, he did this drug 3 times, coming off and suffering and reinstating as what he was suffering, he did not know to be wd symptoms.

After the last final time of coming off seroxat (3yrs ago now) he foolishly listened to his doctor and allowed himself to use other medications as his symptoms were very severe, ( i know, i befriended this guy through skype, phone calls many many times a day, and constant emails and messages exchanged between us 24/7. He did mirtazapine, Olanzepine, prozac switch, and many many others, including the use of Diazepam to try and control the mental and physical things he was suffering from, including many many times of me listening to him going through hisx form of hell by phone on countless occasions. It was horrific and very disturbing for me during tapering to have to witness wd this extreme, and it saddened me greatly that all i could do was be there to listen and talk.

 

He now is 4 months free of his latest addiction, which was diazepam, which he had to use to cushion wd symptoms, he says now, that although life is far from perfect, he is now able to go out alone, and has slowly started to pick up the pieces of his life, he is far from healed, but many days there is a vast improvement when speaking to him, in what he is able to achieve now, as opposed to the guy i first began talking to many years ago. he has positivity most days now, he is very hopeful and sure that he WILL NOW RECOVER FROM ALL OF THIS, believe me, that is a 90% improvement in itself, from the very doubtful, pessimistic and desperate, despairing person he was, who never left his home for 2 yrs,who sobbed about the sad mess his life had become, who sat in bed all day with the laptop, screaming down the phone at me about his horrific wd symptoms.

 

I have not written all of this to scare anyone here, the message is, in his own words from someone who has been there and done this, do not take any other psyche meds, they do not help, he traded his seroxat addiction for benzo addiction and would never ever advise anyone else to do the same. HIS depression/low mood/rages /anxiety and panic, were off the scale, i know, i was there with him and for him, and if HE can do this, then we must at least listen to advice given by others, who have walked in our shoes.

 

There is no easy way to do this lots, its painful there is no two ways about it, but i know that TIME is the only answer for us all, wish icould buy me some lol, ND I WISH I KNEW HOW LONG, BUT I GUESS, our is not to reason why, or how!!!!! just know it happens!!!!!!!

Hope this helps.

XX

[Lor95]

NOTE - THIS IS REALLY FOR MY RECORDS ONLY AND MAY NOT MAKE INTERESTING OR INSPIRING READING.

 

Day 1 at 15.5 mg.

 

Morning on a par with previous mornings, slept till about 4 or 5 in the morning when I was disrupted by anxiety and a strange cognitive/fear type sensation that I can't describe - some of these sensations are so bizarre that when they pass I can no longer describe them. "Dozed" fitfully until about 6.30 when I got up and got on the computer to distract myself.

 

Xanax 0.5 mg @ 7 am.

 

Tried to keep calm till I could get new prescription at the pharmacy but constant moderate level of anxiety/depression.

 

Ingestion of the new dose at 10 am.

 

At about 11.30 or tried to have a nap, must have managed to sleep (not peacefully) and awoke with a start about an hour later filled with sheer pure organic terror. It was like a traumatic "shock" to wake up. Took a long time for my eyes to focus and back of neck in particular and arms tingling all over. I felt pure desperation. I have managed to breathe, breathe and calm down somewhat but now my system still feels hijacked by a very high level of anxiety and fear.

I experienced episodes to this extent of fear just before my last updose to 20 mg and a couple of weeks into my updose. Very severe.

 

I doubt that this could be so quickly a reaction to my decrease, but I'm not sure.

Also, the last few days have been very, very bad so it could be an exacerbation of that.

 

For the rest of the afternoon I pottered around with absolutely no motivation to do anything constructive, just trying to pass time and keep calm. I tried various relaxation exercises, but they passed the time if anything and did nothing to the constant severe knot of fear and dread in my stomach.

 

At about 6pm or so I was watching television, only half distracted, when I realised that my cognitive difficulties were starting to deteriorate. I couldn't remember details of the past half hour or so of television I had been watching, and some of the conversations the people were making were becoming hard to follow and some of the words they were using sounding "strange" to me in a bizarre way.

 

I was talking to my other half and it felt difficult to express myself, I couldn't find the words and stumbling over forming sentences. I had to ask him if I was still making sense. He said yes but maybe only not to scare me.

 

I got on to SA to answer Pun's post and found it very difficult to follow her post. It was like the phrases wouldn't integrate into a whole concept that would relay what was actually being said to me, very hard to describe.

 

So...xanax 0.5mg at 7pm, as I was beginning to really panic about this and I desperately wanted to write. At first it was still difficult to write - I just couldn't express myself and kept losing my train of thought - but the xanax calmed me a bit and I regained some of my mental faculties and it allowed me enough respite to actually ingest some food too.

 

I was able to watch some television with a greater degree of calm for the rest of the evening, although my cognition still seemed "off".

 

I went to bed 10.30 and slept about 4 hours. I woke and from then on till rising at about 6.30, I was in that familiar strange disconnected state where I'm not sleeping but time is passing. Random nonsensical thoughts and phrases streaming through my head, dumps of adrenalin. Horrid. This has pretty much been my sleep pattern for the past few days, and what state I was in before my May 2010 updose too.

[Lor95]

Thank you from the bottom of my heart Anj. xx

 

It's so hard though, almost EVERYONE on this site is actually OFF the damn drugs...I am so far behind. I feel horrible and selfish to admit how jealous I am of all of you.

If you've had a difficult taper and now you're off, at least all the symptoms have been revealed to you and you know to a fair extent what you're up against. That and the added boost that you've MADE IT!!! WOW!!!!!!! No longer a prisoner of psychiatry.

 

If, as I feel today, I had the knowledge that I was DRUG-FREE I wonder what effect that would have on my psyche. I am still held hostage by this poison with no clear knowledge of the best way to proceed. I have to remember that many of you HAVE been in this position too, and know how scary it is.

 

I must keep in mind that life can be very long. I am 37 years old, and say I live to 65...I really don't imagine that I could remain in this state for 28 more years. One thing to cling to is that the body is constantly changing, renewing cells, constantly in flux.

 

I must apologise for this self-indulgent post...I'm just really scared I guess.

[angie007]

Hi LOts,

 

Its not a self indulgent potat all lots, and even if it was!!! who would blame you!!! its not a nice position or place to be in,

all here can attest to that, you take care and stay in touch, we will get you through this, hard as it si.

 

xx

[Lor95]

Thanks Anj. xxx

 

Day 2 at 15.5mg.

 

Morning same as Day 1. Slept until about 4 in the morning, then in a semi-conscious stupor till 7am with nonsensical garbage seeming to stream through my mind, too strange to even describe. Needless to say fitful, anxious sleep during this time.

 

Xanax 0.5mg at 7am and glued to the computer pretty much all day, reading success stories whilst feeling constantly at the edge of panic.

 

Seemed to ease in the evening and managed to hold until 9pm for my second xanax.

I considered reducing this dose to 0.25 but decided not to risk it just yet...see how the next few days pan out.

 

Sorry, boring post...just for my records.

[Nadia]

Ouch... so you are trying to taper off of Xanax as well as the Paxil?

 

The description of your nights and days sounds so much like mine... it helps to hear about other people going through similar things, so don't feel like it's self-indulgent! You never know when some detail you post might help someone else... if nothing else for that "I'm not crazy" reassurance.

[Punarbhava]

Lor.....

 

 

I just want to let you know that I've been working on a response to one of your posts.

 

 

Keep logging your daily events. Myself and others will hopefully be able to notice a few things and thus, provide some feedback.

 

 

BTW,, I don't wish for one of my points to be misunderstood and thus, I wish to clarify and emphasize........re:

 

When I stated it's best not to utilize other psyche drugs during WD and the reasons why, I was NOT implying that you should stop the xanax at this point. I don't know if that would be wise and I will write more about that as soon as I can.

 

My original point was more about the introduction of new drugs. I wasn't suggesting, nor would I ever imply that one should quickly elimninate such, especially if they've been utilized for awhile.

 

It may take me a few days to finish my post. In the meantime, keep posting your daily journal. The more info the better. But keep in mind, we can only offer suggestions, observations and possible recommendations.

 

 

Take good care and I pray things will become more manageable for you!

 

Punar

[Lor95]

Lor.....

 

 

I just want to let you know that I've been working on a response to one of your posts.

 

 

Keep logging your daily events. Myself and others will hopefully be able to notice a few things and thus, provide some feedback.

 

 

BTW,, I don't wish for one of my points to be misunderstood and thus, I wish to clarify and emphasize........re:

 

When I stated it's best not to utilize other psyche drugs during WD and the reasons why, I was NOT implying that you should stop the xanax at this point. I don't know if that would be wise and I will write more about that as soon as I can.

 

My original point was more about the introduction of new drugs. I wasn't suggesting, nor would I ever imply that one should quickly elimninate such, especially if they've been utilized for awhile.

 

It may take me a few days to finish my post. In the meantime, keep posting your daily journal. The more info the better. But keep in mind, we can only offer suggestions, observations and possible recommendations.

 

 

Take good care and I pray things will become more manageable for you!

 

Punar

 

 

Thank you so much Punar - you don't know how much your support means to me. xxxx

 

Day 3 and Day 4 have been similar to the first 2, although I will be more specific in my next post. This is Day 5 and I think it may even be worse.

 

I really think I am deteriorating at this dose.

 

The question is now, how long to hold and whether to make my next one a little bigger. I would very much like to cut to 14.5 next, that would be a 6.5% cut (bigger than I've made so far) but it may give me a moral boost knowing that it's past my "achilles heel" - 15mg. Just a thought.

 

Just on a side note, I have a very dear friend who likes to give his opinions to me from a very different perspective...he has a very interesting mind. Here is what he wrote that he thinks might be something to ponder:

 

You might have to change to a dose that is more stable.

 

Remember the dripping tap example? If you have a water tap on as hard as it goes, the water sprays out evenly in tiny droplets that look white. The spray it produces is uniform and predictable in its shape. If you turn the tap down a bit though, you'll see the stream go clear and it will appear to twist and wriggle around in a far less predictable shape. If you turn it down even more, it will change again into a thin and very straight clear stream, which is predictable again. Turn it down even further and the thin stream will start to break into droplets and depending on how much you've turned it down, the droplets will come out at either regular or in wildly irregular intervals, switching again between predictable and unpredictable effects all the way down.

 

By analogy, I expect the trouble with reducing your medication in such small amounts is that you are going to hit all of the doses that produce unpredictable effects on the way down. You need to be aware of that and tune your dose to one that is stable at each stage, which might mean reducing by larger steps on some occasions and smaller steps on other occasions.

 

Of course it's scary, but I think what's going on here is your natural instinct to equate smaller with safer is increasing the likelihood that you'll find particularly unstable doses on the way down, making you want to take even smaller steps, which in turn virtually guarantees you'll find even more unstable doses, increasing your anxiety/frustration, and so on.

 

Myth: Increasing and decreasing the dose increases and decreases its effects.

Reality: Changing the dose changes the type of effects it produces.

 

Interesting, huh?

[Punarbhava]

Lor....

 

 

I very much agree with the analogy that your friend has presented. I will write more about this when I am able (which may take a few days).

 

 

It appears that your friend's analogy is aligning perfectly to what I have presented thus far re: percentages and holding times etc.

 

Tiny dose reductions do not always produce the best results. As I mentioned, not all tolerance WD situations are created equal and thus, tapering schedules and holding times will vary from individual to individual.

 

 

People such as myself had to taper more quickly and by larger percentages. As I mentioned, if I cut my dose anything below 10 percent I was in chronic 911 violent (beyond description WD). Even 8 percent did NOT hold back the tolerance effect.

 

I was even able to reduce by 11 percent but no higher than that.

 

With that said, because I had to make 10 percents drops I was still bedriddenly and violently sick but it was a lower level of violent sickness than if I had tapered below 10 percent. That was the best balance I could achieve under the circumstances. SO many of us are caught between a rock and an extremely hard place.

 

If you don't reduce your dose by the right percentage the tolerance effect dominates the equation and thus, there will likely be no pattern exhibited during a taper. If fact, you can become sicker with each passing day after a drop IF it's too small of a drop.

 

However, IF you drop by the right percentage you will feel "the pause" as soon as the first half-life of the drug drops in your system. You should feel initial relief from the drop (although I'm not saying you will feel well ....just not as sick).

 

I won't repeat how the pattern should play out since, I mentioned it in previous post.

 

 

With all that said, I don't know if I've ever seen anyone in these states, who were able to achieve stabilization between dose reductions. Rather, the goal is to reduce the degree of suffering as much as possible but the suffering usually cannot be eliminated.

 

Also, the goal is the get off the drug sooner rather than later, but in the safest way possible. In the most severe cases, the brain cannot tolerate the tiny dose reductions all along the way and thus, IMHO this does more harm than good.

 

Unlike "classic WD" one is unable to stabilize after each dose reduction.

 

BTW, I'm not arguing with your friend regarding the point of stabilization I'm just presenting what I and so many others have experienced. I'd be interested to hear if your friend has seen anyone stabilize between dose reductions (providing they are in severe tolerance WD states).

 

I'm so glad you posted this since, TBH, I feel less alone in presenting my experience, findings and observations regarding tolerance WD.

 

Most people don't understand just how severe and complicated these tolerance WD states can become and thus, tapering schedules that work for those in milder or moderate forms of tolerance just don't work for those in severe tolerance states. In fact, the slower tapering schedules keeps the brain in more chaos.

 

Many of us have been relegated to the side-lines - a sub-category of tolerance WD cases, suffering to the extreme and being misunderstood.

 

Anyone who can add information and/or insight into the mysteries of this particular form of WD state is invited into this disucssion as far as I'm concerned. So many people can learn and benefit from these exchanges.

 

BTW, I've likely been repetitive in this post and please forgive but I really can't focus on editing (as usual) LOL

 

I better post this ASAP and take some time away from the computer.

 

 

 

Punar