peng: my battle with venlafaxine

[LarryS]

peng, I just saw your reply dated April 15.  I feel for what your are having to endure and the decisions that must be made, that are fully yours to make.

I too have recently gone through three antibiotic treatments for an ear infection caused by bacteria.  I could do nothing, for about a month, but concentrate on the prescribed regimen for healing.  I was in great pain.  The pain subsided March 26, but continuing to follow up with doctor to now remove a cyst from my ear.

I can say that I am now feeling better, thankfully.

We can maintain Hope and Faith.

 

[peng]

Thanks for visit and best wishes to you LarryS.

[DrugSlave]

Peng, we exchanged a couple of messages on my intro thread a few months back. Sorry to hear about those dental issues.

 

Did you have withdrawal symptoms when you were at a lower dose of Effexor or were your original symptoms of depression/anxiety worse? Or both? If you did have withdrawal symptoms, I'm curious if updosing has helped.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm going to start updosing my Effexor. I don't know if I would ever get off Effexor at the rate I'm going so I'm thinking I might be better off accepting defeat and updosing. It is of no therapeutic value to me but maybe it will relieve some of the permanent withdrawal symptoms I have.

 

Glad to hear you do stairs for exercise. I do that sometimes too.

 

cheers

[peng]

Nice of you to write, DS.

Just updated myself on how you have been doing.  Your research on how effexor patients/victims are succeeding (or not!) is interesting.

I seem to have spent nearly every day researching since 2016!  Never mind, I am a retired scientist (it says here) and it keeps me occupied.

 

I don't regard myself as being a failure through defeat, now.  More having the thought that I am taking the best-judged path for myself, now, for better or worse.

 

During the taper, I had quite a lot of good spells - even when I was down to 62.5mg a year ago.  However, I crashed just after that almost exactly a year ago to this day.  This treacherous drug seems to let you think you are doing well on low doses for some months, then wham!

I am certain this was the "return of my illness", though, and not withdrawal.  Whatever the cause, I made the easy choice (because of the grief/despair) to updose.

 

I have had to updose to the amount I was on for several years when life was much better and, mostly, enjoyable.  The last few weeks have been mostly anxiety and depression free, but the anhedonia was still terrible on a daily basis.

 

As it happens, the last 6 days in a row I have been able to rate as yellow on my XL journal.  The first such run of "good" days since in September and Jan-March, incl, in 2018.  

 

I read that the "N" or norepinephrene effect of effexor SNRI does not come into play until 150mg is exceeded, so my last updose to 162.5mg 28 days* ago may have curbed the anhedonia.  Not sure, but my mind has certainly been telling me to "get up and go and do stuff" over the last 6 days.  Whether it will continue like this, with the fatiguing and uncured bacterial sinus infection, who knows.

 

(*Notes I have going back to the early 2000s show that I have recorded "feeling better" after around 24 days following updoses after a couple of slumps/crashes.)

 

Alto, with all due respect, intends this SA site to be "for folks wanting to come of ADs", so I do not know if our discussion will be welcome on her site.

Certainly, there could be a separate section for our kind of discussion and information, or she could let us know if she would prefer us to stick to personal messages?

 

Anyway, keep in touch DS if you wish.  I will try and answer any queries if I am able, and would be interested, too, in anything your own research shows.

 

Regards,

peng    

[DrugSlave]

There actually is a thread discussing staying on AD's indefinitely.
 

Yes, I understand that the site is geared towards folks coming off meds, but I don't understand the strong opposition to entertaining the idea of staying on them. I don't see what is wrong with discussing it. I think for some folks, it may be the best option. I don't think it's in the best interests of everyone to NOT discuss it. The site is called "Surviving Antidepressants". One strategy to survive AD's is to stay on them. I'm glad you found my observations on the lack of success stories on this site for Effexor sufferers interesting. It was met with hostility. No need for that. I come to this site for polite discussions of our collective predicament.

I exchanged a couple of emails with Dr. David Healey. From what I gather, he is one of the leading experts in the world on AD withdrawal issues. I know Alto likes him. He said trying to get off venlafaxine can be close to impossible. From my experience and from what I've read, I agree.

From your research, what is your impression of those who have tried to come off Effexor and suffered withdrawal issues and then decided to updose to a full dose again? Have they found relief? Have some made their situation worse?

I need to do more research.

Hope you're having a good day Peng...

[peng]

14 hours ago, DrugSlave said:

Yes, I understand that the site is geared towards folks coming off meds, but I don't understand the strong opposition to entertaining the idea of staying on them. I don't see what is wrong with discussing it. I think for some folks, it may be the best option. I don't think it's in the best interests of everyone to NOT discuss it. The site is called "Surviving Antidepressants". One strategy to survive AD's is to stay on them.

 

Bang on, DS - I love the logic of that.

14 hours ago, DrugSlave said:

I exchanged a couple of emails with Dr. David Healey. From what I gather, he is one of the leading experts in the world on AD withdrawal issues. I know Alto likes him. He said trying to get off venlafaxine can be close to impossible. From my experience and from what I've read, I agree.


Yes, I know of him well as he is UK based.  Did not know about his opinion on venlafaxine's tenacity - thanks for that.

 

14 hours ago, DrugSlave said:

.............what is your impression of those who have tried to come off Effexor and suffered withdrawal issues and then decided to updose to a full dose again? Have they found relief? Have some made their situation worse?

I need to do more research.

 

I have not actually encountered any text from anyone to that effect, that I recall.

Have seen quite a few comments on other drug websites about venlafaxine having "saved their lives", e.g, from people being on the drug for several years - up to 20 IIRC.   

Typically of the internet, one can find statements that back or refute what one wants to believe.  The knack is using one's balanced judgement to decide on the credibility of anything, I'm sure you will agree.

 

Best regards for now,

peng.

[DrugSlave]

Do you have a plan for how high a dosage you are going to updose to? I think you were at 225mg at one point, is that correct?

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 6:50 AM, peng said:

I read that the "N" or norepinephrene effect of effexor SNRI does not come into play until 150mg is exceeded, so my last updose to 162.5mg 28 days* ago may have curbed the anhedonia.

 

Yes, I've read that about norepinephrine kicking in at over 150mg. I hope it helps you. 

 

It appears you are incrementing by 12.5 mg at a time. Do you find you get any new side effects from the increases?

 

11 hours ago, peng said:

Typically of the internet, one can find statements that back or refute what one wants to believe.  The knack is using one's balanced judgement to decide on the credibility of anything, I'm sure you will agree.

 

Absolutely. I think the worst has to be with diet. Low carb is the way! No high carb is the best! Spinach good! No, spinach bad!   It almost seems pointless sometimes to research certain things. 

 

How are the other websites that you visit? Do you find them useful? I often find that the users posting don't have nearly the serious symptoms that people on this site have. I remember once I found a blog with loads of comments. The author really seemed to understand how bad withdrawal can be and how powerful AD's are. I was excited to finally find someone that understands. Then the last sentence of the blog said "sometimes withdrawal effects can last up to a month". I think my head hit the table. That was a while ago but I've had withdrawal symptoms for 6.5 years with no relief. 

 

cheers

[peng]

17 hours ago, DrugSlave said:

Do you have a plan for how high a dosage you are going to updose to? I think you were at 225mg at one point, is that correct?

 

Ideally, I would hope to have to go no higher than 162.5mg, and would only go higher if desperate.

I was up to 225mg intermittently during about 11 months of period 2007-2016.  (Max dose for outpatients here, I believe.)

 

17 hours ago, DrugSlave said:

It appears you are incrementing by 12.5 mg at a time. Do you find you get any new side effects from the increases?

Our capsules of 37.5mg coveniently contain 3 mini-tablets of 12.5mg each.  This makes for easy up or downdosing at 12.5mg.  I do not ever recall adverse side effects when increasing doses.  If there were any, they were certainly never in the same league as during/after reduction and were forgettable.

 

Will finish this reply later, DS.

regards

peng

 

[DrugSlave]

Good luck on 162.5mg. Hopefully you will improve. Glad to hear you did not get side effects during the updose.

 

I've heard about those mini-tablets. They dish the poison out in beads here. Between 100 to 145 beads per 37.5mg capsule I think. I used to count them. It was tedious. I've been using a compounding pharmacy since I re-started the taper 1.5 years ago. I just found out last month that they switched me from brand name Effexor to generic 4 different times without telling me! My doctor's prescription says "no-substitution" too. Dummies. Just clueless. My doctor was annoyed with them. They thought they were doing me a favour by saving me money (smh). So, I had unusual mood swings last month. I thought it was from the 3.6% decrease but now I think it was because of the generic brand. I will hold to see if I feel better from the brand name stuff. So far, mixed results. Might be some withdrawal from the generic.

 

There don't seem to be many of us here on this site who are only on one AD. Have you considered adding another medication? Kinda scary to even think about. I guess it would be a plausible option in your case for depression/anxiety which are your original symptoms if I'm not mistaken. My problems are chronic fatigue/mood issues caused by Effexor, so I don't know if it would make sense to add another AD. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that idea out there.

 

peace out

DS

[peng]

On 4/30/2019 at 9:17 PM, DrugSlave said:

How are the other websites that you visit? Do you find them useful? I often find that the users posting don't have nearly the serious symptoms that people on this site have.

 

I do not use other AD websites at all unless my google search results to questions offer up posts from them.  I have done countless searches using questions like "Effexor to updose or not".  

 

11 hours ago, DrugSlave said:

I've heard about those mini-tablets. They dish the poison out in beads here.

 

 Yes, we have them too.  I have a conversion table "beads/mg" I worked out.  Very tedious job, indeed, counting out beads.  As if we did not have enough suffering to deal with!  The modern world is weird. Great science fiction comic we are living in. Overloaded materially, many are, but spiritually lacking.  Special planet whose most intelligent beings screwed everything up lock stock and barrel, could well be our epitaph. 

 

11 hours ago, DrugSlave said:

I just found out last month that they switched me from brand name Effexor to generic 4 different times without telling me! My doctor's prescription says "no-substitution" too. Dummies. Just clueless. My doctor was annoyed with them. They thought they were doing me a favour by saving me money (smh). So, I had unusual mood swings last month. I thought it was from the 3.6% decrease but now I think it was because of the generic brand. I will hold to see if I feel better from the brand name stuff. So far, mixed results. Might be some withdrawal from the generic.

 

Our NHS (National Health Service. b.1948) health centre in town employs a person whose job is to monitor the price of every drug almost constantly (I got the impression) and to order the best value one.  My wisest GP said the drugs bill is horrendous.  Hence, I have been on several different brands of Effexor over 20 years or so.

I was always puzzled that many on SA were perturbed when they received a generic version of the medication.  I, personally, felt the chemical compounds would have to have been identical, generic or not.  I was never aware of being hit by outstanding adverse symptoms when the brand changed, as it regularly does.

This could be a gap in my knowledge.  Do you know of any studies/papers on the composition comparison of "original" and generic versions of effexor?  Never looked for that one myself, DS.

 

Have a good day.

PS: Arctic air returns here next few days.  About a fortnight ago we had temperatures up to the mid-70s F.

 

 

[Shep]

13 hours ago, DrugSlave said:

There don't seem to be many of us here on this site who are only on one AD. Have you considered adding another medication? Kinda scary to even think about. I guess it would be a plausible option in your case for depression/anxiety which are your original symptoms if I'm not mistaken. My problems are chronic fatigue/mood issues caused by Effexor, so I don't know if it would make sense to add another AD. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that idea out there.

 

Please don't recommend adding in new drugs. This goes against SA's policy. We aren't doctors here and can only recommend how to do a safe taper and in some cases, offer information on reinstatements of the prior drug. We cannot help members set up new drug cocktails. 

 

As far as drugs being "for depression/anxiety", that is a reference to the chemical imbalance theory, which has been debunked.

 

Again, chemical imbalance is a myth. Stop the lies, please.

 

Depression: It’s Not Your Serotonin

 

[peng]

Don't worry, Shep, I will not be adding in any other psychotropic drugs at the moment.  DS and myself are just mature adults having a discussion on my thread.

 

In any case, I would not go onto additional/alternative drugs without the agreement of my GP.  He says himself, e.g, that "polypharmacy is a big problem."

 

2 hours ago, Shep said:

As far as drugs being "for depression/anxiety", that is a reference to the chemical imbalance theory, which has been debunked.

 

??

Chemical imbalance theory may have been debunked, but this does not mean that anxiety and depression symptoms cannot be treated with certain organic chemicals.

With lived, personal experience of medication going back to 1977, I know that three of the drugs prescribed for me (once in hospital) for depression and anxiety have helped me.  I have felt them kicking in after, say, 12, 24 days to improve my life for periods of years.

 

Venlafaxine, etc. may be potent toxins, I agree, but sufferers have to weigh up the pros and cons and decide for themselves whether the choice is to take them or not.  You will know of CPU's story, too.

 

I, too, am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice, but simply information based on my own experience.

 

[peng]

2 hours ago, Shep said:

This goes against SA's policy. We aren't doctors here and can only recommend how to do a safe taper and in some cases, offer information on reinstatements of the prior drug.

 

I was led into the "safe taper", but for me it failed, I crashed  and burned badly.  My life has been on hold for many, many months and I have suffered a lot, as have my nearest and dearest.

OK, it was my choice, but if you are not doctors why advise anyone to taper?  Clearly, you are being selective about what you can and can't do?  Personal axes to grind over treatment by some of the medical profession and the, probably justifiable, loathing of pharmaceutical companies seem to be the drivers, no?

The suffering of certain people on here for years is not being helped by advice such as "take a crumb of effexor" - "drop a bead" - "add magnesium", when they are needing urgent professional medical help for their appalling distress and suffering.

[DrugSlave]

Great points peng!

 

8 hours ago, Shep said:

Please don't recommend adding in new drugs. This goes against SA's policy. We aren't doctors here and can only recommend how to do a safe taper and in some cases, offer information on reinstatements of the prior drug. We cannot help members set up new drug cocktails. 

 

I did not recommend new drugs. I am also not a moderator so I am not bound by SA's policy. I noted neither of us are on multiple AD's and that many other members are. I asked him if he "considered it"....followed by "it's kinda scary to even think about". I don't recommend adding a new drug. I don't recommend tapering. I don't recommend updosing or switching to Prozac or staying on the current dose. They are all bad options. Each one carries great risks. There are pros and cons to all of them. Peng and I are exploring various options and ideas. I think it's in everyone's best interests to explore their options. We don't have many and I think it's a mistake to limit our options to one choice - tapering. I wish I never tapered off Effexor. When I was on Effexor my symptoms were 5% of what they are now.

 

Also, to add to peng's point, several moderators have suggested to me to consider switching from Effexor to Prozac. How is that following the rule: "We cannot help members set up new drug cocktails"?

 

I'm glad they mention the Prozac switch. It has benefited some people. 

 

8 hours ago, Shep said:

As far as drugs being "for depression/anxiety", that is a reference to the chemical imbalance theory, which has been debunked.

 

Again, chemical imbalance is a myth. Stop the lies, please.

 

Depression: It’s Not Your Serotonin

 

That is not a reference to the chemical imbalance theory. That is a reference to the fact that AD's are intended to treat depression and anxiety. They have helped many people with those issues. I'm sure I hate these drugs every bit as much as you do, but they have undeniably helped some people, some of the time. Obviously they do horrible things to some of us. I agree that the chemical imbalance is a myth. I've never mentioned it once on this forum.

 

peace and love to all 

[Shep]

@peng and @DrugSlave 

 

This thread is more like the discussions on sites for people who wish to take these drugs, which is problematic on a site devoted to helping people come off these drugs. 

 

You may find these other sites more helpful:

 

 depressionforums.org  or patientslikeme.com

 

12 minutes ago, DrugSlave said:

I am also not a moderator so I am not bound by SA's policy.

 

Yes, you are. We all are.

 

You both are more than welcome to have these kinds of discussions in the PM system. 

 

There's also a thread for discussing staying on drugs: 

 

Has anyone decided that it was best for them to stay on meds indefinitely?

 

 

18 minutes ago, DrugSlave said:

I asked him if he "considered it"....followed by "it's kinda scary to even think about".

 

You're arguing semantics here, DS. I'm also looking at the context of your other posts on this thread where you and Peng are discussing staying on these drugs.

 

And that's fine. No one is pressuring anyone to taper and come off.

 

However, having this discussion on Peng's intro thread is making it difficult for the moderators to navigate and answer Peng's questions, should he have any. 

 

The intro thread really should be for helping someone taper off their drugs. The moderators try to read through all of the intros every day, so this is creating a lot of work for the mods, who are all volunteers going through the same withdrawal you are. 

 

That's why it's best to keep these kinds of discussions to the PM system or to the thread for people discussing "staying on meds indefinitely". 

 

 

 

 

[DrugSlave]

10 hours ago, peng said:

I do not use other AD websites at all unless my google search results to questions offer up posts from them.  I have done countless searches using questions like "Effexor to updose or not". 

 

I do the same. 

 

10 hours ago, peng said:

The modern world is weird. Great science fiction comic we are living in. Overloaded materially, many are, but spiritually lacking.  Special planet whose most intelligent beings screwed everything up lock stock and barrel, could well be our epitaph. 

 

Do you ever watch the Joe Rogan Podcast? He talks about this stuff all the time with guests. I just finished listening to a podcast with Graham Hancock, an author from your neck of the woods who talks about lost civilizations and ancient humans. They talked about humans in the past, present and future and how our ancestors may have been more spiritual than we are. There is evidence that they were advanced but in different ways than today's society. They even talked about anti-depressants briefly.

 

10 hours ago, peng said:

Hence, I have been on several different brands of Effexor over 20 years or so.

I was always puzzled that many on SA were perturbed when they received a generic version of the medication.  I, personally, felt the chemical compounds would have to have been identical, generic or not.  I was never aware of being hit by outstanding adverse symptoms when the brand changed, as it regularly does.

This could be a gap in my knowledge.  Do you know of any studies/papers on the composition comparison of "original" and generic versions of effexor?  Never looked for that one myself, DS.

 

Generic drugs are NOT the same. I learned that the hard way 10 years ago. At that time, Effexor was still helping me overcome chronic pain. They switched me to a generic brand. I had to stop working for a few weeks. It made a big difference. Once I got back on the brand name stuff, it took 2 months to fully recover.

 

A neuroscientist friend of mine, who is also a life long AD user, just sent me some links to info on generics. I'll read them and pass them on in a later post.

 

I hope the artic air you spoke of doesn't last long.

 

[brassmonkey]

@peng, @DrugSlave

 

I suggest that you both review this thread and then if you wish to continue this discussion that you do so via PM and not in the open forum.

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1598-what-will-get-you-warned-or-banned/

 

[peng]

11 hours ago, DrugSlave said:

A neuroscientist friend of mine, who is also a life long AD user, just sent me some links to info on generics. I'll read them and pass them on in a later post.

 

I look forward to seeing them, many thanks, DS.

peng

[peng]

On 6/15/2011 at 7:45 PM, Altostrata said:

This could be dangerous. People could be hurt by your advice.

 

They can be exposed to danger from relapse and hurt by adopting the predominantly-pro tapering off of ADs mantra encouraged by this site.

 

Particularly:

(i) - if they have had, say, adverse childhood/youth experience(s) (ACE).  

(ii) - have been taking the particularly tenacious Effexor/Venlafaxine, and especially if they have been taking it for a considerable number of years. 

 

This is what happened to myself.

 

I was a professional scientist for 50 years and an expert witness for almost half that time and thought I was making a sound judgement when deciding to taper off Venlafaxine/Effexor. 

 

I have suggested this before, but I would repeat that you need to have a special clause on your site warning of the dangers of tapering off Venlafaxine/Effexor for individuals like myself.

 

Best regards

[SkyBlue]

6 hours ago, peng said:

 

They can be exposed to danger from relapse and hurt by adopting the predominantly-pro tapering off of ADs mantra encouraged by this site.

 

I have suggested this before, but I would repeat that you need to have a special clause on your site warning of the dangers of tapering off Venlafaxine/Effexor for individuals like myself.

 

Best regards

 

Many of us have been egregiously harmed by SSRis. 
Many are particularly difficult -- the SSRI that harmed me, Paxil, included -- but we're not here trying to compete about which SSRI is the worst. 

 

It's not the best use of our energy. 

The only way in which SA is "pro-taper" is in helping those who have decided to taper. Individuals decide this for themselves. Most of us didn't get safe information before coming here.

I'm not sure blaming SA for the danger of tapering SSRis is the best use of time. 

Energy might be directed toward telling physicians about the dangers of fast tapering. Most of us are here because of a doctor's negligence.

 

This thread is for what will get members warned, not for suggesting warnings to be included on the site.

If you want to continue this conversation, please post in your own thread about your own experiences.

 

[peng]

18 hours ago, SkyBlue said:

The only way in which SA is "pro-taper" is in helping those who have decided to taper. Individuals decide this for themselves.

 

Yes, I decided to taper myself, but only after being strongly convinced by the site that it was a beneficial thing to do.  Maybe it was my fault, maybe I am stupid.  Maybe the tone of the site is too positive for desperate people?

 

You do say to people who are struggling (which is very often) "you will get well", "this is withdrawal syndrome", for example.

 

Not knocking, this otherwise largely admirable site for that, but for people who have had their minds remapped by adverse childhood experiences, medication withdrawal may well not be successful, or indeed, may instead be doomed to failure, I have lately read.

 

I know, too, the point is made on SA about the differences between "original illness returning" and "withdrawal syndrome".  Personally, I have found it difficult to distinguish between the two at times.  Many doctors will not have a clue, nor will they have the time to analyse a patient's special situation.  Hence, the site carries a very heavy responsibility for ensuring that visitors in distress make the correct choice based on what they glean on arrival.

 

Sorry for reiterating, but I believe it would be helpful to warn people that if they:

• have had adverse childhood experience(s), and/or they
• have been on antidepressants (particularly venlafaxine/paxil or their derivatives), and more particularly, for a considerable number of years at moderate to high doses

they should be very cautious with the taper - perhaps choosing the Brass Monkey slide method - and that they should be well-briefed on the symptoms of withdrawal and relapse, allowing them to then choose a more ultra-cautious approach should difficulty be encountered instead of pressing on regardless as many seem to do.

 

I write this, SkyBlue & mods, only so that folks coming for refuge here may avoid crashing or relapsing and suffering the consequences of a further long-term battle out of another abyss - and to improve SA. 

 

Sincere best wishes.

 

[Songbird]

@peng  I believe all the warnings and information you are asking for are already on the site.  For example, there are plenty of warnings about cautious tapering and so on in these topics:  

Before you begin tapering - what you need to know

The rule of 3KIS - keep it simple keep it slow keep it stable

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

If someone "encounters difficulty" we encourage them to hold, not "press on regardless". 

Also, please read this topic thoroughly:  About survivingantidepressants.org

 

 

 

 

[peng]

I hear what you say Songbird.

 

I believe I am an avid reader of applicable text (50 yrs professional scientist) yet I failed and crashed.

 

Maybe there is too much information and one cannot see the wood for the trees?

I shudder when I see a new, distressed visitor desperate for relief and they are blitzed by  a list of links to plough through.

Just offering an opinion, you are free to take it or leave it, of course.

Best wishes.

[Altostrata]

Excuse me, peng, you are being unfair. You arrived here looking for information about tapering.

 

We don't force anyone to taper. We try to give people as much information as possible. In the more than 200 posts on this topic, at least 6 moderators have given you many links to read. We can't read them to you, you have to read them yourself.

 

All we do is give tapering information. We don't judge people if they decide to keep taking their drug.

 

We cannot distinguish between who should taper and who should not based on a childhood history of trauma or any other kind of history. If you are capable of managing your taper, we will coach you in tapering. You cannot blame us for forcing you to taper, or making you taper too fast. You have to decide if it's going well for you.

 

At no point do I see any of the staff discouraging you from updosing.

 

We are quite open about how Effexor is among the most difficult drugs to taper. We have people counting beads every day.

 

I also saw many, many occasions where you were dealing with other serious health problems, sometimes with drugs such as antibiotics that had an adverse effect. If you read other Intro topics, you'll see many people set back by antibiotics and other drugs. We can't predict or take responsibility for that.

 

Further, many people would be depressed, anxious, or discouraged dealing with physical pain. Were those the adverse symptoms you attributed to tapering? Were you missing the stimulating effect some people feel from Effexor?

 

No, we do not promise that if you go off the drugs, your life will be better. You'll be off the drugs, that's all. Your choice.

 

Here's a sampling of posts showing how your taper was going:

 

On 7/26/2018 at 3:09 AM, peng said:

Over the last 2 year period, my taper from 225mg went mostly smoothly.

I was able to report good (good) or not bad  colours on my daily excel spread sheet until I got to about 60mg in the spring and early summer of this year, 2018, when some bads came in.

Even the, at first glance, cautious 5-10% taper caused me to overshoot what, in my opinion, was my minimum effective therapeutic dose for the time.

 

Looking further back (pre-SA era) I did go down to 0.0mg once in 2006 and was still feeling great, doing lots of projects, legal reports, expert witness attendances in court, etc.  However, typically for the beast, it came back to bite me within a few months.

In my ignorance (again, no website help) I reinstated slowly but ended up on 187.5 to 225mg again.  On the plus side I was able to resume my very active part-time professional and leisure facets of my life until 2015 when the drug seemed to poop out, as you US guys say.

 

Anyway, please be wary when you start passing down through, say,  the 75mg mark, and do not take chances by thinking you are "good enough to go" faster.  Euphoria and deceptive self-confidence are other tricks in venlafaxine's armoury.

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade here - just spreading the word about the sneaky dangers this, at times effective, drug is liable to hammer us with when we are feeling "free".  

 

The more I read and experience personally, the more I believe venlafaxine (withdrawal) is a special case, being an exceptionally difficult drug from which to withdraw.

 

In the early 1980s, I withdrew from Ativan, started in 1977.  Difficult enough, I thought, with my doctor poo-pooing the fact that I was weaning myself off it by having to cut the small tablets into slivers with a razor blade.  The outcome showed that my own instincts (no websites then) proved correct and, worryingly, the trained professional was wrong.

 

Best wishes & success, folks

peng.

 

On 8/2/2018 at 3:26 AM, peng said:

Been on updose to 75mg for 32 days now.

Really low yesterday.  Fatigued.  Painful arm, shoulder, neck from pinched nerve.  Anhedonia.  Nausea yesterday from ibuprofen, probably.

Seriously considering further updose any week now.  Maybe after 5 or 6 weeks at 75mg that is a fair trial?

 

When I refer to my journal of the many years up to about March 2018, when I was mostly on the dose 225mg decreasing 2016-2018 to 62.5mg, I wonder if it is worth this purgatory.  I see that I led a happier life in a lot of ways.

Maybe trying to get off the AD is not for me?

Sorry, folks, at 73, quality of life seems more important than waging a bitter battle with my feelings and Effexor.  'Tis a beast by all accounts - maybe younger folks will beat it easier?

 

 

 

On 8/6/2018 at 3:16 AM, peng said:

Sorry, folks, I updosed for the third time on 2nd August to 87.5mg after giving 75.0mg a try for 32 days with nothing doing as far as relief from adverse symptoms goes.

My plan now is to increase slowly each 2 to 4 weeks until I get to my lowest therapeutic dose - whatever that is.

Readers of my previous posts will know that a review of my journal/diaries/email archive/photos, etc, shows that I am in a worse place than I was when taking more of this drug over about 14 of the years from 2002.

 

This site is for people wishing to come off antidepressants, of course, and I have tried, but for me it has not worked, despite religiously following the tapering/supplement/exercise advice.

 

I believe that whilst weaning off ADs is a largely good thing, I am of the belief now that for myself at 73, my breakdown of health after PTSD events when I was 9-19, then 12 years of very irregularly rostered shift work - eventually each of them 12-hours long, my brain was remapped by those stresses ("The Body Keeps the Score"), hence my reduction of the AD has brought about a relapse of my original illness.

 

I know that not many on this website believe in the relapse of original illness theory, and I, myself (and family) have personally suffered a lot to try and disprove it, too.  I wanted to believe it was wrong - and it will be for many, I am sure, but, almost certainly, it is not for me.

 

On 4/8/2019 at 3:16 AM, peng said:

Thanks, Larry.  I do so appreciate your visit.

Am up to 162.5mg past week.  A lot, I know, but I just look at the recent 12 years of quality life I had when on 150-225mg and realise that it is a reasonable trade off.  Coming off the medication for me was unrealistic idealism and I crashed and have had the worst year to 18 months or so since 30 years ago!

 

Also, most of this year, I have had dental related pain then bacterial sinusitis for nearly 10 weeks, so that has not helped.  Extraction of failed infected root canal treated molar.  3 lots of different antibiotics have not cleared coloured catarrh, nor fatigue, but I am sleeping reasonably and mood is not bad.  Researching a lot on probiotics.  There is an explosion of interest now due to gloomy prospects for antibiotics and other meds.

This week we hear that the number of prescriptions for antidepressants in England has soared in the last ten years.  Where are we going?  The American Dream of the 1950s would have been a great place to stop off!

 

I see you are still feeling OK having now reduced to 75mg.  Do play it cautiously now, though.  I was feeling good until I got down to 62.5mg, then crashed badly just over a year ago.

 

Keep listening to the music, too, as do I - it could be our salvation.  Personally, I find being in our wild country a great tonic, too, but have not made it there for some time.

Will send you link to my photo site by pm.

All the best to you and yours for the future, Larry.

 

[peng]

So sorry, Alto.  Not intending to cause you a problem.  You are correct on many points.

My comments are merely my own views offered as hopefully constructive in some way for the benefit of you, the mods and others visiting SA, which is, or should be, a creature that is evolving and improving, ideally.

There are so many papers, studies, etc. out there to be read.  The lived experience - 42 years off and on for myself - must count for something, too, surely.  The ACE thing I have looked into a good bit, but it is never enough.

Thank you for taking the time to compile the above post, I am embarrased that I caused you extra work.

Sincerely,  and with the best of intentions,

Best Wishes for you and everyone.

[Altostrata]

I understand how frustrating this must be for you, peng.

 

We're in a bind, either we provide coaching in tapering or we don't. Should we not? Which way is the greater good?

 

We cannot predict who will run into problems. Everybody takes their chances. If you want empty promises, you'll have to see a psychiatrist, and then deal with their crazy-making rationalizations and arbitrary drug decisions. But who knows, one might guess right sometime for you.

[eymen23]

Peng,

 

You have already had a reasonable response from Alto and the other mods, but I would like to add my thoughts.

 

Although this site helps people to navigate through the process of tapering off of psychiatric drugs, I feel that underlying that, it indirectly prompts many members here to stop being a ‘patient’ and gently begin to take their emotional health back into their own hands.

 

Tapering is just one element of this much more complex and long term process of becoming responsible for one’s emotional health. That is a path that only an individual can walk his or herself, although we can certainly provide words of encouragement along the way.

 

The one thing you will often see here, is that it is those members who take ownership of their emotional health, that usually have the best outcomes in respect of their tapers and/or drug decisions. I am not saddened by the availability of modern psychiatric drugs, but I am deeply saddened by how individuals will repeatedly put their trust into an area of conventional medicine even when it continues to harm them. 

 

That’s why we as moderators don’t compare ourselves to medical professionals. We’re not looking to make you our patient. We can offer you our guidance and suggestions, based on countless hours of research, personal

experiences and member feedback; but we can’t tell you what will ‘fix you’, ‘make you feel good’ or assign a label to the cluster of emotions you’re feeling. That is the job of medical professionals and I think as moderators, we’re all happy it’s not our job. 

 

Ultimately it is your drug regimen and it is your responsibility, whether you want to place blame with us or anybody else. Nobody else can live your life or experience your symptoms, so how can they accept blame for what drugs you choose to take every day? 

 

Just some food for thought. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by eymen23

[peng]

No one has to take my opinions as facts - hopefully what I regard as facts may be helpful in tuning and improving SA further.

[peng]

6 hours ago, eymen23 said:

but I would like to add my thoughts.

Hi, eymen23.

Just looked for your signature/history.  Only curious, really.

[Songbird]

We have taken your feedback into consideration, but ultimately, if you are not happy with the way the site is run, it's your choice whether to participate or not.

[peng]

Very gracious of you Songbird.

Thank you.

[peng]

Supplements/vitamins.

Have used countless kilograms of magnesium sulphate (Epsom Salts) in bath over last two years.

Will give up this expense, unless I change my mind and feel worse.  Personally, whilst a warm/hot bath is always pleasant, I have noticed no worth whatsoever for this bath salt.

NB - Purely my own experience, used with an open mind, if it works for you, carry on with it.

 

Still taking omega 3, chelated magnesium*, Vit D3 and trialling various pre and probiotics.  Some of the latter are expensive, particularly a Swedish one, I favour.

Gut health is certainly better.  I had to be on PPIs (mainly 10mg Omeprazole) for many years and before that, heartburn/reflux/indigestion plagued me for decades.  No daily dose of ppi or indigestion for months now.

The authorities do not want the elderly on PPIs, now, anyway.

 

Not taking folic acid any more (my bloods once came up with a deficit) except via spinach, almost daily - even stuff picked from garden past few weeks.  Truthfully, this was never me before - ever.  Many urban Scotsmen traditionally loathed vegetables.

However, now, I have got used to the green stuff on top of my daily home-made vegetable soup - all then microwaved.

 

* magnesium citrate upset my stomach, I found, as have others.

 

Wishing you all better health.

[Songbird]

37 minutes ago, peng said:

Truthfully, this was never me before - ever.  Many urban Scotsmen traditionally loathed vegetables.

 

  You made me laugh today!

[intothewoods]

On 5/5/2019 at 11:10 PM, eymen23 said:

Tapering is just one element of this much more complex and long term process of becoming responsible for one’s emotional health. That is a path that only an individual can walk his or herself, although we can certainly provide words of encouragement along the way.

 

The one thing you will often see here, is that it is those members who take ownership of their emotional health, that usually have the best outcomes in respect of their tapers and/or drug decisions. I am not saddened by the availability of modern psychiatric drugs, but I am deeply saddened by how individuals will repeatedly put their trust into an area of conventional medicine even when it continues to harm them. 

 

That’s why we as moderators don’t compare ourselves to medical professionals. We’re not looking to make you our patient. We can offer you our guidance and suggestions, based on countless hours of research, personal

experiences and member feedback; but we can’t tell you what will ‘fix you’, ‘make you feel good’ or assign a label to the cluster of emotions you’re feeling. That is the job of medical professionals and I think as moderators, we’re all happy it’s not our job. 

 

Ultimately it is your drug regimen and it is your responsibility, whether you want to place blame with us or anybody else. Nobody else can live your life or experience your symptoms, so how can they accept blame for what drugs you choose to take every day? 

 

@eymen23, thank you so much for this. All such a crucial part of recovery, so beautifully conveyed. 

[peng]

10 hours ago, intothewoods said:

 

@eymen23, thank you so much for this. All such a crucial part of recovery, so beautifully conveyed. 

 

You have described your incredibly hard road in your signature, intothe woods.  

"Florida" and the US speaks to us of scientific excellence and unlimited budgets.

Clearly, you have not found this?

Sincere, Best Wishes for an easing of your suffering and a recovery.

 

I keep wondering what eymen23's background might be, but he seems to have got special dispensation from King John or the Sheriff (UK version) and does not need to provide a signature like the rest of we proles.

Is he a celebrity like the late Brian Clough or Robin Hood?😉

I 

[eymen23]

4 hours ago, peng said:

I keep wondering what eymen23's background might be, but he seems to have got special dispensation from King John or the Sheriff (UK version) and does not need to provide a signature like the rest of we proles.

Is he a celebrity like the late Brian Clough or Robin Hood?😉

I 

   

Peng,

 

I’m sure you meant the above in good jest, but I wrote a well-meaning and thought out response to you, so I don’t appreciate the subtle mockery above with no acknowledgement of what I wrote to you before.

 

Like several of the admin/mod team I have  had to hide my introduction thread and signature due to the implication of these details being out in the public domain.

 

As you can imagine, my background is very similar to everyone else here, which includes taking and tapering from an SSRI medication.