SSRIamNot: Intro - Zoloft be gone - rage be here

[SSRIamNot]

Hi,

I did a very slow taper and finally got off of my zoloft 2.5 weeks ago.  

About 1 week ago, the irritability/rage/anger started up again.  I had experienced this during each taper step, but it went away after a few days each time.

Now, with meds at zero + 1 week - my rage is so bad.  It does help that I know where it is coming from.  But every day, every little thing bothers the hell out of me.  I have road rage all the time.  (I just keep breathing and don't act out)  - 

This is exactly the symptoms that kept me going back on my meds for years.  Of course back then I didn't know anything about withdrawal, so I just thought it was relapse or the underlying condition.  
But now, I know what is going on, I am DETERMINED to not go back on the meds.  

I feel miserable.  I have tried various supplements, but I don't seem to get any relief.  

Any tips?  Anger = hell.

 

[ChessieCat]

Hi SSRIamnot,

 

Welcome to SA.  Here at SA we recommend a 10% taper of the previous dose followed by about a 4 week hold to allow the brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug.

 

It sounds like you are experiencing withdrawal.  You say you did a slow taper but what you call a slow taper maybe quicker than what SA recommends.  We have members here who have to go slower than the 10% especially when getting to the lower doses.

 

I understand that you don't want to go back on Zoloft, and that is a very common reaction, but the only known way to lessen withdrawal symptoms is to take the drug which the brain needs.  I will tell you of my own experience which might help you to understand the impact that these drugs have.

 

I was taking 100mg Pristiq and reduced to 50mg.  For 3 weeks I experienced extreme brain fog and at the end of the 3 weeks I was unable to type.  Because I am a professional typist of 40+ years I knew that something was very wrong.  Thankfully I had joined SA a few days before this happened and they had suggested updosing.  When I couldn't type I took extra Pristiq and about 4 hours later I was able to type and my brain fog was clearing.

 

After stabilising I have been tapering by no more than 10% as recommended by SA and am now down to 18mg.  I only experience minor withdrawal symptoms and have done a couple of longer holds (once 3 months at 50mg and then 7 weeks at 20mg) to allow my brain a chance to do any catching up if it needed to.

 

If you decide that you would like to reinstate we can suggest a dose for you to try.  Please create your drug signature as per the following instructions so that we can see your drug history at a glance:

 

 A request: Would you summarize your history in a signature - ALL drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 12-24 months particularly?

• Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses.
• A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs. 

• Any drugs prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years.
• Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago)
• Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016.
• Link to Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 

Here are some helpful links:

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

Dr Joseph Glenmullen's WD Symptoms Checklist

 

Tips for tapering off Zoloft (sertraline)

 

These really helped me to understand SA's recommendations:

 

Brain Remodelling

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

When we have the information about your taper and doses we will be better able to offer tailored suggestions.

 

This is your own Introduction topic where you can ask questions and journal your progress.

 

Edited October 6, 2017 by ChessieCat

[AliG]

Hi SS. Welcome . I'm sorry for what you are going through and I have to agree that it sounds like you did a taper much faster than your CNS could cope with and are now experiencing withdrawal symptoms.

 

Once we have some more information / details we can recommend a very small reinstatement dose if that's what you choose to do. No one really wants to go back on the drugs but its the only known way of helping to alleviate withdrawal symptoms. A low dose lets you explore the option with less risk of being sensitized. Please read all the links Chessie has provided as they will give you a broad overview of withdrawal.

 

Again , welcome and please let us know your thoughts moving forward.

[SSRIamNot]

I've updated my sig with as much as I can recall since starting this in February.

-I'll put it here to help the conversation:
------------

I didn't keep track of exact dates - theses are best guesses

Zoloft - Start taper at 200mg
Started 10 mg taper every 2 weeks on February 1
Got to 90 mg and withdrawal was unbearable

Went back up to 200mg and tried to switch to tapering off of valium (started with 20 mg)

Did 2.5 mg taper of valium weekly and got down to 10 mg.
Restarted Zoloft taper - in July timeframe - 25mg every 10 days to two weeks as tolerable - was much easier after the restart.  Like I had banked some kind of detox credit or something.

Went from 25 mg to 0mg zoloft in Mid September.

currently on 10mg valium most days

-------------

 

• Some things to add - I've been on some kind of SSRI or SNRI for 15-20 years
• I had about 6 months of adderall and various other things (gabapentin, propranolol for side effects from adderall) added about 2 years ago (August 2014)  that was a huge mistake.  But got off of those fairly easily Jan-Feb 2015.  
• Over the course of my time on SSRIs (mostly prozac and zoloft) - I had tried to stop multiple times without a taper or with an ill-informed taper recommended by a MD that didn't know what they were doing.  Always had problems.  Always assumed it was relapse or underlying condition.  It wasn't until this year that I discovered the information in "The Anti-depressant Solution" that I may have been experiencing withdrawal each time.  Made me hopeful and angry. Hopeful that I might be able to get off of the meds.  Angry that the mainstream "healthcare" system didn't give me any actual help.

By the way - update on symptoms.  I've had 2 acccupuncture treatments so far since my original post- and the rage/anger has diminished quite a bit.  I'm no where near what I would call happy or relaxed.  But I'm not as on edge.

So - if it is the opinion of the kind folks here that I should do a small reinstatement dose - given what I've said, what would your recommendation be?

 

Edited October 7, 2017 by SSRIAMNOT
still trying to figure out interface - want to be notified on replies - not happening.

[SSRIamNot]

Adding to thread so I can be notified of replies.

[ChessieCat]

Thank you for adding your signature.  It would be helpful if you would amend it so that it is easier for the mods to follow (we are experiencing our own withdrawal issues and we sometimes have cog fog).  Please also add the information about the other drugs.  Just a summary of drugs and years is fine because they are further back in your history.

 

Please check the following, add the details where I have coloured the font (you will need to change the font colour after amending) and then copy and paste it into your signature.  Whenever you make a change please update it so it remains current.  Thank you.

 

SSRI/SNRI - 15-20 years.  Other drugs and dates

 

Zoloft – start date, dose

Feb 1 2017 - Tapered by 10mg every 2 weeks

date – Updosed from 90mg to 200mg

July 2017 – Tapered by 25mg every 10/14 days

Mid Sept 2017 – 25mg to 0mg

 

Valium – start date, dose

date – Tapered by 2.5mg weekly, to 10mg on most days

 

Edited October 7, 2017 by ChessieCat
added SSRI/SNRI - 15-20 years.

[SSRIamNot]

For the SSRI/SNRIs  (Other drugs and dates) - I have no clue.  It has been ages.  Going to have to go with "unknown" there.

I'll take a best guess on the others.

 

[ChessieCat]

Even though you have tapered, you have gone much faster than SA's recommended tapering protocol.

 

I've used the Tapering Calculator - Online and if you started reducing from 200mg back in February this year, and followed the 10% of previous dose every 4 weeks you would be down to about 75mg now.

 

Because you have only been off 25mg for about 1 month, if it was me I would try 5mg (that is five not fifty).

[ChessieCat]

5 hours ago, SSRIAMNOT said:

I had about 6 months of adderall and various other things (gabapentin, propranolol for side effects from adderall) added about 2 years ago (August 2014)  that was a huge mistake.  But got off of those fairly easily Jan-Feb 2015. 

 

We just need to have an overview of previous drug use.  Please copy the following for the first line of your signature:

 

SSRI/SNRI - 15-20 years.  Aug 2014 - Jan/Feb 2015 (approx) - Adderall, gabapentin, propranolol

[ChessieCat]

5 hours ago, SSRIAMNOT said:

currently on 10mg valium most days

 

From what I understand with benzos it is better to take the same dose every dose, because you can experience rebound anxiety when you don't take them.

 

5 hours ago, SSRIAMNOT said:

I've had 2 acccupuncture treatments so far since my original post

 

Acupuncture - Posts #6 & #8 (not detox or stimulation)

[SSRIamNot]

Sig update didn't take.

grrrrrr

will try again.

 

 

[SSRIamNot]

sig won't take all the detail I've been asked for - so all I'll do is this year

Full details here:

 

I didn't keep track of exact dates - theses are best guesses

1998-2010 various ssris.  mostly prozac - some attempts to change for side effects, always returned to some kind of SSRI.

2010 - was on and off so many things (I call this the psychiatrist guinea pig year) - ended up adding a benzo (xanax at the time) and spending 12 weeks on disability.  IRRESPONSIBLE MD!!

Jan 2010  Zoloft 200mg

Jan 2010 Clonazepam .5-1mg

July 2016 switched from clonazepam to valium 10-20mg (most days 10mg)

Jan 2017  State of the union Zoloft 200mg

Jan 2017  State of the union Valiuim 10-20mg

Feb 1 2017 Started Zloloft  -10 mg taper every ~2 weeks on February 1

~June 2017  Got to 90 mg zoloft  and withdrawal was unbearable realized I had updosed valium to 30mg~June 2017 Went back up to 200mg and tried to switch to tapering off of valium (started with 20 mg)

~June 2017 Did 2.5 mg taper of valium weekly and got down to 10 mg.

~July 2017 Restarted Zoloft taper - 25mg every 10 days to two weeks as tolerable - was much easier after the restart.  Like I had banked some kind of detox credit or something.

~September   Went from 25 mg to 0mg zoloft in Mid September.

~September  on 10mg valium most days

October 1 - withdrawal symptoms (mosty irritability/anger/rage spectrum) - upped valium to 20mg

October 5 - started Accupuncture - sessions so far 10/6- 10/7

[SSRIamNot]

ok, how's things look now - got enough to be helpful?

 

[ChessieCat]

Q:  So you only started Zololt in Feb this year?  Q:  Did you start Valium in Feb this year?  Q:  Where you totally drug fee from Feb 2015?

 

If you answer yes to all of these questions, than you might be able to reinstate a smaller amount of Zoloft, for example 1mg.  You would then keep notes on paper of what symptoms improve.  If after 2 weeks you feel that there has been no relief, and you haven't had a bad reaction, the you could increase the dose by another 1mg up to 2mg.  Please note that the idea of reinstating isn't to get rid of withdrawal symptoms completely, but to bring them to a level that you can live with.  

 

Signature:  Thank you, that's much easier to read.  Because you have a post which gives additional details please copy and paste this link into your signature so we can click on it to go directly to it.  Drug history details link

 

[SSRIamNot]

No actually started valium last year (converted from clonazepam) - Zoloft in 2010 (converted from various)

Not been drug free since starting this whole thing back in the last century.

 

 

[ChessieCat]

Moderators are making suggestions which can affect your health and wellbeing.  It is very important that we have clear and accurate information provided in your drug signature. 

 

Please add the following as I previously requested:

 

Zoloft – start date, dose

Feb 1 2017 - Tapered by 10mg every 2 weeks

date – Updosed from 90mg to 200mg

July 2017 – Tapered by 25mg every 10/14 days

Mid Sept 2017 – 25mg to 0mg

 

Valium – start date, dose

date – Tapered by 2.5mg weekly, to 10mg on most days

 

1 hour ago, SSRIAMNOT said:

Zoloft in 2010

 

That being the case, my suggestion of 5mg is appropriate.

[SSRIamNot]

Thank you VERY VERY MUCH for your suggestion and assistance.

So the idea will be to get on that dose and
1. the withdrawals will go away, in which case I stay on that dose till stable (4 weeks?)
2. the withdrawal symptoms do not go away, in which case I come back for another idea after a few days?

 

Another question:  at the top of your latest post, there is the paragraph that starts "moderators are making suggestions.."  that continues doewn tto "Please add the following as I previously requested:" along with a repeat of info that I have provided to the best of my ability.  was that just thread reposting, or is there something I haven't yet provided?

 

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

Please add the start date for the drugs you are currently taking.  We need this information in your signature so we can see it at a glance whenever you post.

 

Zoloft – start date, dose

 

Valium – start date, dose

 

 

Regarding withdrawal symptoms after reinstating:

 

 

3 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Please note that the idea of reinstating isn't to get rid of withdrawal symptoms completely, but to bring them to a level that you can live with.  

 

After stabilising on a reinstatement dose it would be best for you to hold for a good amount of time.  You have made a very fast decrease from 200mg of Zoloft.  It is better to hold for longer than to decrease too soon and then have to updose.  You will need to hold for at least 2 months, but if it were me, I'd hold for 4 months.  See also:

 

Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Withdrawal Normal Description

 

Stabilising - What Does That Mean?

 

Keep Notes on Paper

Rate Symptoms Daily to Check Patterns and Progress

 

16 minutes ago, SSRIAMNOT said:

2. the withdrawal symptoms do not go away, in which case I come back for another idea after a few days?

 

It takes about 4 days for the drug to get to a steady level in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.  Please keep notes on paper of what symptoms improve/worsen.  If you find that after 4 days you are not noticing any improvement please let us know and at that time please post your notes so that we can assess your situation and consider whether increasing might help, and by how much.  If you are noticing a small amount of improvement that will be a sign that reinstatement is working.  If that happens you can then stay at that dose and see how things go.  If the symptoms improve but are still unbearable after 1 or 2 weeks we can consider whether you might increase by a very tiny amount.

 

The lower the dose you can stabilise on the better and the less you will have to taper later.

[SSRIamNot]

The zoloft & valium start dates were in the history link.  I added them to the front page of the sig.


 

 

 

[MollyN]

Hi SSRIamnot, I'm so sorry you've having such a hard time, geez we didn't know it was going to play out like this when we first blindly filled out prescriptions way back when!

 

I'm not sure what the moderators will suggest re reinstatement etc. I do however remember the terrible rage when I dropped too much too fast. I must say for me, I did reinstate a very small amount and found instant relief, however I was still on the drug (paxil) so I'm not sure if that's entirely relevant. 

 

I guess I just wanted to reassure you, that although the rage is hideous and horrendously overwhelming at times, it is induced by the drug and isn't some sort of personality flaw on your part. I'm not sure if that's a fear of yours, it was for me. It just felt so... unacceptable. Plus the good news is that once you've found a way to combat it, either with reinstatement and slow withdrawal, or time, then the rage feelings will subside and you're left like me, with just a strong memory of them.

 

I'm cheering you on to get through this! big hugs mollyn

[ChessieCat]

52 minutes ago, MollyN said:

I'm not sure what the moderators will suggest re reinstatement etc.

 

So that there is no confusion this is my suggestion regarding reinstatement:

 

21 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

I've used the Tapering Calculator - Online and if you started reducing from 200mg back in February this year, and followed the 10% of previous dose every 4 weeks you would be down to about 75mg now.

 

Because you have only been off 25mg for about 1 month, if it was me I would try 5mg (that is five not fifty).

 

16 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

After stabilising on a reinstatement dose it would be best for you to hold for a good amount of time.  You have made a very fast decrease from 200mg of Zoloft.  It is better to hold for longer than to decrease too soon and then have to updose.  You will need to hold for at least 2 months, but if it were me, I'd hold for 4 months.

[SSRIamNot]

Thank you so much for your encouragement. 

My father always had a temper, so when this would come up I always just assumed I inherited it.  But it always came up when I tried to stop the SSRI.  This was before I knew anything about withdrawal.

It is still hard not to see myself in a bad light.  But that's likely partially withdrawal too.

Anyway, thanks again for your kind words.

 

 

[MollyN]

sorry about that ChessieCat, thanks for pointing out that you'd already made a recommendation  I'm so glad you've found a safe way forward for SSRIamnot. To be honest, I try and follow along with people's doses and various drugs in posts along with the mods questions and mostly can't make head nor tails of it. 

 

It's so true, if you've had an angry parent like we have OP, it makes it all the challenging when we see that in ourselves, especially with the extreme form in suffered in withdrawal xxxmollyn

[SSRIamNot]

screwed up already.

I went to get my 100mg zoloft to mix with water and for the taper. 
At the same time I got my multivitamins

Ended up taking the 100mg zoloft with the multis by mistake.


kicking my self hard now.  I was supposed to take 5mg, I too 100mg.


kind of overwhelmed with this whole thing...

 

what do I do now?


I HATE this feeling of stupidity and helplessness.

 

[ChessieCat]

6 minutes ago, SSRIAMNOT said:

Ended up taking the 100mg zoloft

 

Next dose take 5mg.

[SSRIamNot]

So in other words, don't panic.

 

[ChessieCat]

And please add the 100mg Zoloft + date to your signature and then add the 5mg + date once you start on that. Thanks.

[ChessieCat]

Don't panic, but keep notes on paper.

[SSRIamNot]

I am uploading my customized monthly worksheet - I used this in the past - it is tailored to the symptoms I most commonly experience.

I like having everything on one sheet as it lets me see trends quickly.   It is the format I am most likely to stick with.  A page a day gets lost in the shuffle very quickly for me.

I rate each symptom 1-10, then total them for the SUD (Subjective Unit of discomfort) Overall.

More to come for the upside habits.

SUDS_WITHDRAWAL.xlsx

[Altostrata]

Hello, SSRI. 

 

Nice job on your signature. I can see you're a systematic person.

 

I changed your screen name to upper and lower case -- we don't encourage all uppers.

[SSRIamNot]

Thanks for the help, Altostrata.  I don't encourage all uppers either.

 

 

[SSRIamNot]

update:  10/9

Rage/irritability manageable today and actually most of the weekend even before reinstatement.  

Dealing now with body aches, insomnia (mid-insomnia- I wake up and can't bet back to sleep.  Had another acupuncture session today (calming).  Feel slightly better after that.  But have general flu-like Plus dizziness and hard time concentrating.

So I am reading that the body can become very sensitive to supplements/other drugs -  I was taking a number of supplements before - Now I'm going to reduce to:

Multivitamin
Omega3
Vit D

Iron
Calcium/Magnesium

As a RNY patient, I have to take supplements because my digestive tract is malabsorptive. 

[ChessieCat]

It is generally okay to continue taking something that you have been taking.  The caution is with starting anything new.  If you ever do wish/need to add something, only make one change at a time and start with a low dose to see how it affects you.  It is also advisable to do it at least 1 week after a drug dose change.

 

I notice that you have Calcium/Magnesium in the above post.  Calcium and Magnesium should be taken separately and at different times.  The bizarre thing is that I have seen magnesium with calcium in the pharmacy.

[SSRIamNot]

Thanks for that info.

I had never heard that about Cal & Mag.  I had heard that one helps absorb the other - but after your comment, did a little research.  Found this article that elaborates on/confirms what you said.

I had been taking so many other things (tumeric, pepper, zinc, shankhpushpi, ashwaganda, and on and on) - and not consistently.  This, I think, is a good time to go to the basics which are what my doc & bariatric nutritionist recommended. 

If I add back, I will do as you say and do one thing at a time at a low dose.  But that will be on the other side of getting stable.

Thanks again!

 

 

[baroquep]

1 hour ago, SSRIamNot said:

This, I think, is a good time to go to the basics which are what my doc & bariatric nutritionist recommended. 

 

Very good advice.  I found that I had to discontinue all the supplements that I had been taking for years before I was able to stabilize.  

[SSRIamNot]

So - today I had major symptoms returning.  Irritability/Anger/despair/sadness/low energy.  Might be that the 100mg mistake last Sunday is wearing off.  I've been on 5mg Mon-Sat since then.