Gastrointestinal issues: small intestinal overgrowth syndromes SIBO, SIFO

[tsranga]

21 hours ago, Ariel said:

This is a comment written by @tsranga and originally posted in @FeralCatman's intro topic. 

It's so informative that I am re-posting it here as I think it could be of interest to a wider audience.

Thank you, tsranga. 

 

 

Thanks for posting Ariel. 

 

I have many articles to share on this as I tried to make sense of gas movement in my body, and it's effect on various organs. 

 

Here is one that I found very useful - 

 

https://www.racgp.org.au/afp/2013/may/wind

 

My conclusion was a malfunction of the autonomic nervous system in withdrawal causes most of our symptoms.

 

[FeralCatman]

@tsrangaI printed out that article. If you have any others that would be useful to my situation feel free to message me with them. I tend to agree with your above statement and do think that the majority of my issue is ANS related because of the way the symptoms fluctuate while on a consistent diet and schedule but want to leave no stone un-turned in dealing with these gut issues. My nutritionist is really good but I never go off the opinion of just one person any more. Been there and done that and am paying for it. If I do test positive for SIBO it is worth trying to treat it as it is potentially part of the problem. I am starting to lean towards a non-antibiotic approach but am still reading.

[tsranga]

8 hours ago, FeralCatman said:

@tsrangaI printed out that article. If you have any others that would be useful to my situation feel free to message me with them. I tend to agree with your above statement and do think that the majority of my issue is ANS related because of the way the symptoms fluctuate while on a consistent diet and schedule but want to leave no stone un-turned in dealing with these gut issues. My nutritionist is really good but I never go off the opinion of just one person any more. Been there and done that and am paying for it. If I do test positive for SIBO it is worth trying to treat it as it is potentially part of the problem. I am starting to lean towards a non-antibiotic approach but am still reading.

 

This is one of the best articles that I have read in the gut brain axis.

 

https://franklincardiovascular.com/category/autonomic-dysfunction/page/5/

[FeralCatman]

@tsrangaexcellent article thank you very much. I am going to pass it on to my primary care doctor and my nutritionist. The way I read it is that each system can cause disruptions in the other so until all the systems balance out it's going to be very difficult to get any stability in the gut. The ANS just takes time. Once that balances out it will be much easier to deal with the other issues. That said a diet that is healthy for the gut and the symptoms you are experiencing is also essential while waiting for your nervous system to balance out to keep problems from getting worse and it should also help to accelerate nervous system recovery. Seems like it may still be worth treating or at least attempting to treat the SIBO if that is confirmed to be a problem. However after reading that depending on how long your nervous system takes to straighten out you may end up having to treat it more than once. What a mess. I will have to do some more reading and give this a lot more thought to try and understand the problem a little better. Thanks again for the article 😉✌️😸😸😸😸

[tsranga]

26 minutes ago, FeralCatman said:

Seems like it may still be worth treating or at least attempting to treat the SIBO if that is confirmed to be a problem

 

There is a process in the gut called migrating motor complex (MMC) that is a clean up routine that runs when there is no digestion, to clean out all the bacteria and waste. 

 

This is the process that malfunctions and causes sibo.  So irrespective of whether you treat sibo or not, if you don't fix your MMC, you will have recurring sibo. Periodic fasting is a great way to trigger the MMC.

 

 

https://journeythroughsibo.com/supporting-the-vagus-nerve-migrating-motor-complex/.

 

 

[FeralCatman]

@tsrangaAnother excellent article. It pretty much completes the picture. This whole thing is a vicious circle so and until your nervous system is working right it's going to be a chronic problem. The good news is is there are multiple things you can do to help it along most of which I'm doing already. It's funny you mentioned fasting. For many many years I only ate twice a day. Now that I'm eating three times a day I feel worse. I'm going to try going back to eating twice a day with no snacks and see if I feel better. I'm also going to do a changeup with Vagus nerve exercises and see if it helps.

[tsranga]

On 8/1/2022 at 12:04 PM, FeralCatman said:

@tsrangaAnother excellent article. It pretty much completes the picture. This whole thing is a vicious circle so and until your nervous system is working right it's going to be a chronic problem. The good news is is there are multiple things you can do to help it along most of which I'm doing already. It's funny you mentioned fasting. For many many years I only ate twice a day. Now that I'm eating three times a day I feel worse. I'm going to try going back to eating twice a day with no snacks and see if I feel better. I'm also going to do a changeup with Vagus nerve exercises and see if it helps.

 

One thing to watch our for - I find that I have a circadian pattern to how the gut functions..  And at times, it feels like air/gas gets stuck in the gut, and this can cause a whole lot of downstream and upstream symptoms including leg parasthesia and rhinitis along with temperature dysregulation.  When it moves, especially when hungry, I have visceral sensitivity. 

 

When in this state, drinking or eating is my last resort to try and get it to move. It almost feels like gastroparesis (afternoons are the worst), and the recommendation is to eat more frequent smaller meals. I find that 4 meals a day spaced 4 hours apart (breakfast, lunch, snack, dinner) works best for me.

 

[FeralCatman]

@tsrangaThank you. I will keep that in mind. I am also still having the symptoms based on body position but not every day any more. Most days I seem to be fine. This morning I had bad anxiety and had to get up and walk around and it is passing after about an hour. Sometimes lying down makes things worse especially laying on my side. Weird.

[peaceandlove]

On 8/2/2022 at 4:36 AM, tsranga said:

 

One thing to watch our for - I find that I have a circadian pattern to how the gut functions..  And at times, it feels like air/gas gets stuck in the gut, and this can cause a whole lot of downstream and upstream symptoms including leg parasthesia and rhinitis along with temperature dysregulation.  When it moves, especially when hungry, I have visceral sensitivity. 

 

When in this state, drinking or eating is my last resort to try and get it to move. It almost feels like gastroparesis (afternoons are the worst), and the recommendation is to eat more frequent smaller meals. I find that 4 meals a day spaced 4 hours apart (breakfast, lunch, snack, dinner) works best for me.

 

hey could you explain your symptoms more to me? All of a sudden I have constapation, heart paps & heartburn no matter what I eat. I’m assuming this is withdrawal vagus nerve related & there’s nothing i can do about it. Like my nervous system not letting me digest my food

[peaceandlove]

On 8/2/2022 at 4:44 AM, FeralCatman said:

@tsrangaThank you. I will keep that in mind. I am also still having the symptoms based on body position but not every day any more. Most days I seem to be fine. This morning I had bad anxiety and had to get up and walk around and it is passing after about an hour. Sometimes lying down makes things worse especially laying on my side. Weird.

hey could you explain your symptoms more to me? All of a sudden I have constapation, heart paps & heartburn no matter what I eat. I’m assuming this is withdrawal vagus nerve related & there’s nothing i can do about it. Like my nervous system not letting me digest my food

[tsranga]

10 hours ago, peaceandlove said:

hey could you explain your symptoms more to me? All of a sudden I have constapation, heart paps & heartburn no matter what I eat. I’m assuming this is withdrawal vagus nerve related & there’s nothing i can do about it. Like my nervous system not letting me digest my food

 

Well I don't have constipation or heart palpitations, and my GI symptoms are usually a combination of visceral sensitivity, bloat, heartburn, multiple BMs in a flare, stuck air/gas relieved by burping and farting..  I also have temperature regulation issues, leg paresthesia etc, all of which seem to be connected to how well the gut is doing.. 

 

My autonomic specialist agrees with me that it is some sort of vagus nerve disorder.   There's really no medication to fix this, but a good fresh and unprocessed diet and hydration, along with physical activity and belly breathing seems to help keep the gut moving and avoiding putting more strain on it.

[peaceandlove]

7 minutes ago, tsranga said:

 

Well I don't have constipation or heart palpitations, and my GI symptoms are usually a combination of visceral sensitivity, bloat, heartburn, multiple BMs in a flare, stuck air/gas relieved by burping and farting..  I also have temperature regulation issues, leg paresthesia etc, all of which seem to be connected to how well the gut is doing.. 

 

My autonomic specialist agrees with me that it is some sort of vagus nerve disorder.   There's really no medication to fix this, but a good fresh and unprocessed diet and hydration, along with physical activity and belly breathing seems to help keep the gut moving and avoiding putting more strain on it.

It really does have to be vagus nerve / brain related. I saw a guy complaining about GI & acid reflex issues on YouTube he said it felt like his vagus nerve was broken. Now he is completely healed & all went away naturally so it has to be. How long have you had these specific GI issues & how far are you in withdrawal? 
 

im 3 months in & these just started about 3 weeks ago

[FeralCatman]

@peaceandlove@tsranga This recent episode of GI illness I experienced seems like it was actually a bout of episodic gastroparesis which can be due to vagus nerve damage and damage to the enteric nervous system. I've read stories of other people that have episodes of this due to stress. I was stable for awhile with diet but when I cut back the Allegra the changes in histamine signaling must have irritated things and now I am having symptoms again. It's just a guess but it fits. It sucks and is very uncomfortable but it should clear up in time as it is already slowly improving again. Good diet is still important but as you said tsranga the nerves healing is what will really drive recovery.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastroparesis

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system

[FeralCatman]

@peaceandlove@tsrangaI just had an appointment with my PCP. He agreed that what I had was a flare of gasteroparesis due to the drug / drug WD nervous system damage as was what happened in February/March. I am recovering quite a bit quicker this time and have been able to expand my diet out much quicker this time so he feels that this is a sign of recovery and healing. I agree.

[peaceandlove]

On 8/5/2022 at 10:40 AM, tsranga said:

 

Well I don't have constipation or heart palpitations, and my GI symptoms are usually a combination of visceral sensitivity, bloat, heartburn, multiple BMs in a flare, stuck air/gas relieved by burping and farting..  I also have temperature regulation issues, leg paresthesia etc, all of which seem to be connected to how well the gut is doing.. 

 

My autonomic specialist agrees with me that it is some sort of vagus nerve disorder.   There's really no medication to fix this, but a good fresh and unprocessed diet and hydration, along with physical activity and belly breathing seems to help keep the gut moving and avoiding putting more strain on it.

so will we eventually heal from this vagus nerve disorder & our stomach go back to normal? @tsranga

[tsranga]

23 hours ago, peaceandlove said:

so will we eventually heal from this vagus nerve disorder & our stomach go back to normal? @tsranga

 

Well... Healing can mean different things to different people..  and what normal is can also be different for each of us.. Both of which is not in our control. 

 

What is in my control is how I choose to live... The first is to accept my present condition unconditionally..  then do what I can to manage the condition, and then if I have the energy, focus on living my life to the best of my ability doing things that give me peace and happiness.

 

So I accept my vagus nerve disorder, and I do whatever I can to support the body with breathing and yoga and adopting a healthy lifestyle.. 

 

I find that over time, it takes me less time to recover from a flare, and I suffer less with this attitude.  That to me is healing.

[papaloapan]

I'm completely off psych meds (7 months), I developed histamine intolerance which caused high levels of histamine in my gut which caused severe leaky gut which is about not be able to absorb nutrients from food, also called malabsorption. I found that probiotics are one of the top 3 supplements to heal leaky gut (link at the end) but regular probiotics or the great majority of probiotics are very high in histamine. So my question is, has anyone found the right probiotics (from fermented food) or probiotic supplement for histamine intolerance? (which has to be a probiotic low in histamine). And not only found it, but also taken it for a while and that it has already given good results in healing leaky gut? I know that probiotics are available in supplements and also in natural fermented foods like kefir, sauerkraut, kombucha tea, kimchi, or miso.

 

Leaky gut is different from IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome), IBS is a symptom of leaky gut, leaky gut is the cause of IBS.

 

Link of Dr Ruscio's website in which he mentions the top 3 supplements that heal leaky gut with the research/scientific backing that supports it. The supplements are probiotics, l-glutamine and vitamin D/safe sun exposure, here is the link: https://drruscio.com/leaky-gut-supplements/

[peaceandlove]

On 12/3/2020 at 2:29 PM, mva96 said:

Hi all,

 

Herbal Antibiotics for SIFO/SIBO

 

I'm aware that antibiotics are known to trigger setbacks for those of us in withdrawal. I was just wondering if anyone has any experiences with herbal antibiotics such as oregano, caprylic acid etc?

 

I'm 3 months into withdrawal, have been seeing slow but definitely steady progress. Took a herbal antibiotic blend earlier and have definitely noticed a spike in anxiety this evening. I'm thinking its probably best to accept the SIBO/SIFO for the time being and treat it in a year or so.

 

Interested to hear other peoples experiences.

 

hello did you end up having sibo & did you cure it ? @mva96

[peaceandlove]

On 12/29/2021 at 9:29 AM, OptimisticRP said:

Reading this makes so much sense. After I stopped the fluoxetine in May, a month later I had diarrhea everyday for 19 days and my stomach hasn’t been the same, I’ve had persistent nausea. And a doctor told me I have leaky gut in July. However I just ignored it and thought my anxiety was causing my stomach issues. @Altostratai know you typically say to not take any supplements besides mag and omega 3. However, should I treat the leaky gut issues ? Will it hurt my nervous system? 

hey how are you doing? Do you end up having sibo ? @OptimisticRP

[GGGG]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:04 PM, Meeto said:

It's common in WD.  I thought I was having gut issues and saw a functional doc who was giving me herbs and vitamins which I was reacting too.  This was before I knew I was in WD from swapping meds and dropping dosages.   

What supplements did you take 

 

[Estman]

On 2/14/2023 at 11:01 PM, papaloapan said:

I'm completely off psych meds (7 months), I developed histamine intolerance which caused high levels of histamine in my gut which caused severe leaky gut which is about not be able to absorb nutrients from food, also called malabsorption. I found that probiotics are one of the top 3 supplements to heal leaky gut (link at the end) but regular probiotics or the great majority of probiotics are very high in histamine. So my question is, has anyone found the right probiotics (from fermented food) or probiotic supplement for histamine intolerance? (which has to be a probiotic low in histamine). And not only found it, but also taken it for a while and that it has already given good results in healing leaky gut? I know that probiotics are available in supplements and also in natural fermented foods like kefir, sauerkraut, kombucha tea, kimchi, or miso.

 

Leaky gut is different from IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome), IBS is a symptom of leaky gut, leaky gut is the cause of IBS.

 

Link of Dr Ruscio's website in which he mentions the top 3 supplements that heal leaky gut with the research/scientific backing that supports it. The supplements are probiotics, l-glutamine and vitamin D/safe sun exposure, here is the link: https://drruscio.com/leaky-gut-supplements/

Yes,I also have problems with digestion for a long time.
Meanwhile, I used Seeking Healt HistaminiX probiotics for several months
There are histamine lowering bacteria.
It helped me in August-September last year
Unfortunately it didn't help when I took it from November 20th until Christmas
Then the situation got really bad.
I'm usually better two hours after eating, but then fermentation starts
There is severe fatigue, a drop in energy, dizziness and weakness, and a feeling as if you have eaten something bad.
I eat little histamine foods, only beef ham, eggs and chicken-turkey in small quantities
This clomipramine is a particularly nasty weaning drug
I have also given up sugary foods thinking I have SIBO
He also does not eat fatty foods or dairy products
Unfortunately, I don't know if I have SIBO, histamine intolerance or if the gastroparesis is caused by low stomach acid-bile acid or if there is a functional cause.
It is certain that it is related to the reduction because whenever I do it in a small dose, I still get severe indigestion and nausea and other symptoms.
There is such a nasty feeling as if you often have food poisoning or the stomach flu
But unlike this, I haven't vomited and it lasts a long time.
Tricyclic antidepressant withdrawal causes cholinergic rebound
I understand that it has to do with acetylcholine
Acetylcholine is the main neurotransmitter that mediates vagus nerve impulses between the brain and the gut
Maybe it makes the intestines too slow or causes low stomach acid.
Have you had enough stomach acid?

I tried taking L-Glutamine for 3 days two weeks ago, but then I got a heavy wave
I don't know if it's related, but could it be that L-Glutamine turns into Glutamate?
Glutamate is stimulating and aggravates anxiety-depression
But I don't know exactly, I haven't received a very precise answer anywhere.

[OptimisticRP]

On 2/28/2023 at 11:58 PM, peaceandlove said:

hey how are you doing? Do you end up having sibo ? @OptimisticRP

Yeah I did haven’t treated it yet. I got Covid in December and I have a lot of symptoms and I can’t even tell what’s from med withdrawal - SIBO/histamine intolerance - and long Covid. So I’m trying to figure it all out. I was 80% healed and then got Sibo and HI and was 65% - and got Covid an now I’m 40-50% up and down though. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Estman]

Could low acetylcholine be the cause of gastroparesis?
The clomipramine I am weaning off has a strong anticholinergic effect.
Afa acetylcholine greatly affects digestion, stomach motility and stomach acid-bile and other
It seems that with a lack of acetylcholine, the sympathetic nervous system becomes too active, then digestion stops and a fight-flight fear arises.
I often wake up at night with a fast pulse and panic attacks
Too little acetylcholine increases the pulse and the heart does not calm down.
If only I knew if there was too little or too much acetylcholine, I could improve my eating.
I wonder if it is also related to SIBO?

[tsranga]

7 hours ago, Estman said:

Could low acetylcholine be the cause of gastroparesis?
The clomipramine I am weaning off has a strong anticholinergic effect.
Afa acetylcholine greatly affects digestion, stomach motility and stomach acid-bile and other
It seems that with a lack of acetylcholine, the sympathetic nervous system becomes too active, then digestion stops and a fight-flight fear arises.
I often wake up at night with a fast pulse and panic attacks
Too little acetylcholine increases the pulse and the heart does not calm down.
If only I knew if there was too little or too much acetylcholine, I could improve my eating.
I wonder if it is also related to SIBO?

 

This question keeps popping up in my head all the time.  Unfortunately I don't think anyone knows the answer nor can we test to confirm this 

 

My GI issues flared up after I stopped smoking and I had an auricular acupuncture session to help with the smoking quit. 

 

Nicotine got me temporary relief by reducing bloating and improving motility. But I was spending more time in the toilet as I rarely felt a complete BM.  Nicotine mimics the action of acetylcholine.

 

In withdrawal, I get very good BMs in the morning when I wake up, but during the day when I am on my feet (sympathetic), I rarely feel the urge to pee or poop and I cannot drink water because my gut is not moving. I have to take breaks to lie down frequently to get the gut moving. 

 

Caffeine definitely helps me with gut motility, especially when it's stuck. Caffeine is a vasodilator. 

 

Putting the two together, and also looking at my preexisting structural issues (varicocele, hemarroids etc.), I feel that there could be aggravated vascular compression in the pelvis/abdomen caused by rapid weight loss (both post nicotine, post mirtazapine), causing these GI issues.

 

The question is whether it's a malfunctioning vagus nerve due to lack of acetylcholine that's the root cause of it all, made worse by nicotine and mirtazapine induced conditions.  In any case, I am focused on improving my gut motility by trying all of the following - yoga and breathing for the vagus nerve, toning the vagus nerve, yoga and PT to help with blood circulation and strengthen the core, and acupuncture. The one thing I haven't tried are supplements.

 

Here are the articles that correlated with my symptoms - 

 

Symptom checklist 

 

https://scholbach.de/gefaesskompressionsphaenomene-darstellung-fuer-patientinnen-und-patienten/checkliste-gefaesskompressionssyndrome#gsc.tab=0

 

 

Vascular compression syndromes - 

 

https://scholbach.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/20180324-vascular-compression-syndromes-own-website.pdf

 

 

Treatment 

 

https://scholbach.de/behandlung-von-kompressionssyndromen#gsc.tab=0

 

 

 

[Estman]

On 3/6/2023 at 5:05 PM, tsranga said:

 

This question keeps popping up in my head all the time.  Unfortunately I don't think anyone knows the answer nor can we test to confirm this 

 

My GI issues flared up after I stopped smoking and I had an auricular acupuncture session to help with the smoking quit. 

 

Nicotine got me temporary relief by reducing bloating and improving motility. But I was spending more time in the toilet as I rarely felt a complete BM.  Nicotine mimics the action of acetylcholine.

 

In withdrawal, I get very good BMs in the morning when I wake up, but during the day when I am on my feet (sympathetic), I rarely feel the urge to pee or poop and I cannot drink water because my gut is not moving. I have to take breaks to lie down frequently to get the gut moving. 

 

Caffeine definitely helps me with gut motility, especially when it's stuck. Caffeine is a vasodilator. 

 

Putting the two together, and also looking at my preexisting structural issues (varicocele, hemarroids etc.), I feel that there could be aggravated vascular compression in the pelvis/abdomen caused by rapid weight loss (both post nicotine, post mirtazapine), causing these GI issues.

 

The question is whether it's a malfunctioning vagus nerve due to lack of acetylcholine that's the root cause of it all, made worse by nicotine and mirtazapine induced conditions.  In any case, I am focused on improving my gut motility by trying all of the following - yoga and breathing for the vagus nerve, toning the vagus nerve, yoga and PT to help with blood circulation and strengthen the core, and acupuncture. The one thing I haven't tried are supplements.

 

Here are the articles that correlated with my symptoms - 

 

Symptom checklist 

 

https://scholbach.de/gefaesskompressionsphaenomene-darstellung-fuer-patientinnen-und-patienten/checkliste-gefaesskompressionssyndrome#gsc.tab=0

 

 

Vascular compression syndromes - 

 

https://scholbach.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/20180324-vascular-compression-syndromes-own-website.pdf

 

 

Treatment 

 

https://scholbach.de/behandlung-von-kompressionssyndromen#gsc.tab=0

 

 

 

When the pyloric valve doesn't work properly, food stays in the stomach, and symptoms such as bloating, nausea, vomiting, reflux can occur. Eventually, if food can not get absorbed, weight loss occurs. Sometimes it is life-threatening.

My food stays in my stomach for too long and doesn't move on from there.
Otherwise, the stomach was fine
There is a functional disorder.
I had an endoscopy last week and the doctor said that the pyloric sphincter, which is located between the stomach and the small intestine, is loose
This apparently causes symptoms of gastroparesis such as bloating and nausea as well as dizziness and weight loss
But acetylcholine is the main neurotransmitter that regulates the entire intestine, pyloric sphincter and digestive juices through the vagus nerve
Since I am dealing with the tricyclic antidepressant Clomipramine, it seems that this is a cholinergic rebound
Like too little acetylcholine?
Other symptoms such as very poor memory, brain fog and dizziness seem to indicate low acetylcholine as well
I didn't have this problem before.
I really hope I don't need any surgery
 

[tsranga]

2 hours ago, Estman said:

didn't have this problem before.
I really hope I don't need any surgery

 

In general post withdrawal I have observed issues with sphincters - anal and esophageal. That could be due to age, preexisting weakness or withdrawal. Withdrawal definitely exposes any preexisting weakness in the body. 

 

I would give it more time to heal.. everything does improve - it is painfully slow.

[Estman]

20 hours ago, tsranga said:

 

In general post withdrawal I have observed issues with sphincters - anal and esophageal. That could be due to age, preexisting weakness or withdrawal. Withdrawal definitely exposes any preexisting weakness in the body. 

 

I would give it more time to heal.. everything does improve - it is painfully slow.

Yes, I have also noticed anal sphincter dysfunction
Usually the gas comes out normally, but during weaning it seems to stop
The intestine is full of gas, but nothing comes out, sometimes you have to make a lot of effort on purpose
It seems to me that it is somehow related to acetylcholine
Because the condition is not permanent
For some periods the digestion is tolerable and then again very bad.

Yesterday was very bad, today again more or less
I have noticed that if I fall asleep on my side (especially on my right side), I often wake up at night with nausea
Apparently, partially digested food spills back due to the pyloric sphincter
When sleeping in a normal position, it hasn't been hacked like that.

[tsranga]

On 3/14/2023 at 4:27 AM, Estman said:

Usually the gas comes out normally, but during weaning it seems to stop
The intestine is full of gas, but nothing comes out, sometimes you have to make a lot of effort on purpose

This is exactly what I experience many times - either no gut noises, lot of gut noises but no downward movement (only burps), or has wants to come out, but anus closes up.. . 

 

My theory is vasoconstriction, vasodilation, pressure and temperature sensing receptors (piezo1/2),  nitric oxide and acetylcholine all combine to play a role in what we experience. 

 

Rather than any real deficiency, it just may be a faulty nervous system that's not able to keep all of these in balance when exposed to environmental triggers.

[Estman]

15 hours ago, tsranga said:

This is exactly what I experience many times - either no gut noises, lot of gut noises but no downward movement (only burps), or has wants to come out, but anus closes up.. . 

 

My theory is vasoconstriction, vasodilation, pressure and temperature sensing receptors (piezo1/2),  nitric oxide and acetylcholine all combine to play a role in what we experience. 

 

Rather than any real deficiency, it just may be a faulty nervous system that's not able to keep all of these in balance when exposed to environmental triggers.

I found the results of such a study    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2951425/
I have been taking digestive enzymes for the past few days and it seems like digestion is better at first
But if I reduce the clomipramine it gets worse again.
What is this choline energy rebound anyway, does too much acetylcholine accumulate?
Then its level can no longer be raised, but should be lowered
But it has something to do with digestive enzymes
How do you understand?

[tsranga]

The body is way too complex to get answers to these questions, and cannot be controlled by supplements or medication at such a granular level especially when it is healing from a hypersensitive nervous system. 

 

All we can do is to support the body as it heals by doing the basics right - eat, sleep,  exercise and reduce stress.

[Estman]

On 3/17/2023 at 4:44 AM, tsranga said:

The body is way too complex to get answers to these questions, and cannot be controlled by supplements or medication at such a granular level especially when it is healing from a hypersensitive nervous system. 

 

All we can do is to support the body as it heals by doing the basics right - eat, sleep,  exercise and reduce stress.

Clomipramine (TCA) is anticholinergic, and when it is weaned, there should be a cholinergic rebound, right?

I have asked the doctor several times what this choline energy rebound is, but he does not answer
When reducing even a small dose, the symptoms that usually occur after 5 or 6 days are great agitation, confusion, headache, bad mood, sleep disturbances, poor digestion-nausea, blurred vision and watery eyes.
It's like I'm in a fog and it causes anxiety, my head is not clear.
It seems to indicate too high levels of acetylcholine in the brain
However, indigestion still occurs, although acetylcholine should speed up the movement of food in the intestines and strengthen the expression of gastric acid-digestive enzymes
If I eat some protein-rich or fatty food, the stool is especially light brown, as if there is a lack of bile or some other enzyme
It's like contradictory somehow?
Have you tried Ashwagandha, did it work for you?
Would there be any dietary supplement that would help reduce acetylcholine, but apparently there isn't?
I have tried the choline supplement for two days but I got a headache and stopped.
Choline appears to further increase acetylcholine levels.
So it worsens agitation, but should it speed up digestion?

[tsranga]

If you keep up with this level of analysis, that alone will cause agitation and gut issues.  I understand that you are trying to solve your problem, but the body has its own healing cycle and cannot be controlled to such granular levels. 

 

Nobody can answer your questions - you have to arrive at what works to minimize your symptoms, and then stick with it until your body stabilizes. This will take time and you have to accept this instead of constantly trying to change doses or add new supplements