Sottana: Paxil withdrawal - questions and concerns

[Dejavu]

@Sottana, it took me 10 months to stabilize after tapering 50mg of zoloft in a month. I seriously crashed...I mean seriously! I had all the symptoms you have currently have. But I did stabilize. And you will too. It felt so good to be relatively normal again that I waited another 2 months to start my taper. By then, I was at least 95% symptom free. What symptoms I did have were very minor and easily overlooked. Keep the faith. Your turn is coming.

[Sottana]

@Dejavu I appreciate the message. So happy for you and your stabilization. I really hope it happens for me too, but I’m quickly losing faith at almost 9 months. I feel I’ll probably have to just taper since things don’t seem like they’re progressing. I’m still going to wait a few weeks though 

[Dejavu]

3 minutes ago, Adili13 said:

I feel I’ll probably have to just taper since things don’t seem like they’re progressing

I understand about tolerance, and I know it's a tough decision to make on hold vs. taper when you get to that point. But I'm glad you're going to wait it out for a while longer. I read your thread, and on your good days, you do feel that you've made some progress, so I'm thinking that's a positive sign. If it helps, I will also tell you that I had a grand total of ONE window in that 10 month period. I was so disheartened and could not imagine I was getting any better. But I was. Turns out, my brain apparently doesn't do windows and waves much - instead I just had a gradual improvement over time. So gradual, in fact, that I didn't really notice the improvement until I went back over my thread and my handwritten journal. It took me forever to even start feeling better, but then improvement came very quickly.

 

We are all different, of course. But because I now know that stability *can* happen this way, I wonder if maybe that's what will happen in your case. You certainly deserve a break, and I'm sending you good thoughts that it will come soon. I'm rooting for you!

 

DJV

[Sottana]

@Dejavu thank you so much. I’ll have to look over your thread at some point. It’s entirely possible that I’ll still stabilize, though, I’m feeling pretty down recently. It seems ten months or a year is pretty common amount of time to stabilize in. I’ll just have to hold on and see what my brain brings me. Yeah, my lack of windows have been super frustrating! Thanks again for popping in!!! 

[Dejavu]

You bet. Keep the faith!

[Sottana]

Is there a thread anywhere about splitting your dose to avoid interdose WD? 

[ChessieCat]

I don't think there is.  I will start one.

 

Do a search online to find out the half life for your drug.  Keeping daily notes would also help you to see if it is interdose withdrawal.

 

I've been splitting my dose since I got to 10mg Pristiq.  I didn't think about interdose withdrawal before.  Because it is compounded it becomes immediate release.  It does have a slow release formula added but it doesn't cover the 24 hours which the whole tablet did.  When possible I split the doses evenly, but most of the time I can't and I just take the smaller dose at night so that if I get withdrawal symptoms it is when I sleep.

[Sottana]

@ChessieCat I have symptoms throughout the day, but my worst symptoms are right before bed, which is about 21 hours from my dosing and exactly the half-life of my drug. This is why I thought splitting the dose might be helpful, also, @Colonial suggested this for me. I’ll be starting the double dosing in about two weeks 

[ChessieCat]

5 hours ago, Adili13 said:

I’ll be starting the double dosing in about two weeks 

 

Double dosing sounds like you will be doubling the amount you take.

 

The better term is split dosing, or twice a day dosing.

[Sottana]

@ChessieCat good point, split-dosing makes more sense 

[Colonial]

 

If the split dosing is going to help, you won't need to get all the way to "once every 12 hours" to see improvement.

If the half-life is about 19 hours like mine, Your only going to have to move that one dose about 5 hours to even out that big "dip" in the level in your brain.

It only took me about 4 days to see huge improvements, but I changed to the split dosing pretty quickly after starting the liquid from the controlled release, so my brain wasn't "without" the med for an extended time as yours has, but I really think it will help.

 

Taking a potent brain altering med with such a short half life only once every 24 hours is a symptomatic response waiting to happen.

It may take you a bit longer than 4 days to see progress considering how long you've been on it like this, but I think once you get the dosages spread out by 6 hours, you'll be on the right track. Granted you do eventually want to get to close to every 12 hours, but once your stable, you'll notice being off an hour either way isn't that big of a deal.  I routinely take it on a 14 hour-10 hour schedule.  Your going to have 2 "dips" in your blood level regardless to how close to every 12 hours you take it, but once your close enough to that, since each dose is about 19 hours you have some "play" in timing once your stable.

 

Remember your brain has been without med at that time of the day for an extended period of time now, so you may have some adjustments in symptoms that I didn't have to deal with since I went to the split dosing within a month of coming off the extended release, but I think it's the best advice for anyone coming off an extended release med to do split dosing if their moving to such a short half life med.  

It takes me 2 minutes twice a day, well worth it.

[sunnysideup69]

@Sottana

Hello there, dropping onto your thread to say hi and had a read and catch up. I'm personally a bit knackered today. Not in a wave, but a bit more 'WD normal' which is feeling a bit 'meh.' Tired/ bored/ listless.

 

Split dosing does indeed sound like a very good idea, given that Paxil has such a short half life.

Keep the faith, my lovely. Healing is happening, even when it really doesn't look like it. I know how frustrating this flippin journey is. I can hardly believe myself that it's been over eleven months and my brain is still trying to straighten itself out. Unfortunately though, that's the way it goes.

Sending hugs your way.

 

[Sottana]

@Colonial that’s interesting, but that totally makes sense. I don’t think getting it all the way to 12 hours apart is totally necessary, based on your description. It has been a while for me on Paxil now (going on 3 years and 12 on ssris) so I may react differently to you, but I’m going to try this method in a couple weeks. I set a date for myself of August 3 a while back to just see if I make any improvements prior to trying anything. 
 

@sunnysideup69 it is a crazy journey! It seems like you’ve been making some real strides. You’ve always given me so much hope and inspiration, sunny. I’ve seen some improvements but overall, I’m still very sick. Akathisia has improved, and that’s the biggest one. I’ll probably wind up holding one full year just to see how much I can stabilize, then I’ll have to get on with my taper. I think a lot can happen in 3 months though! Fingers crossed!! Thanks for popping in, you’re the best!!! Xxx

[Colonial]

 

You might find that exactly every 12 hours is not even optimal for you, since when you dose will predicate when your "lulls" are.

I had to make sure I did NOT have a "lull" in the afternoon hours of 3-7pm, when the "lull" was more oppressive for me than at any other time.

 

For example,  for ease of discussion let's use a 20 mg daily dose.

Taken once a day at 8 am, you would have, 20 mgs in your system from about 8am to around 3am, when you would tank to 0 for 5 full hours from 3am to 8 am.

 

If split at 8am and 8pm you would have TWO "lulls" where your level would drop but only in HALF to 10mgs, and ONLY for 2.5 hours each time, every twelve hours. 

It would be at both 3 am and 3pm for 2.5 hours each "lull".

Now the 3 am drop might not be problematic since your sleeping, but the 3pm "lull" might still be troublesome since your tanking in half at "our" worst part of the day.

 

When I was extremely unstable, I actually went to 3 times a day for 2 months until I was stable and then switched to the twice a day.

At every 8 hours, a 20 mg total dose split would give 3 "lulls" but only dropping the dose from 20 mgs to only about 14.5, and only for about 90 minutes each time.

A "lull" of only 90 minutes and only dropping a 3rd of the dose was, for me, barely indistinguishable from the extended release.

By the time the smaller 1/3rd drop even begins to register the 90 minutes is up and your back to full dose

VERY SMOOTH...😎

 

You might find once You "cover" that 5 hour period it doesn't matter what time of day your two 2.5 hour "lulls" are...

 But I dose myself so it doesn't happen during the afternoon, even a "normal" brain is "off" a bit that time of day and withdrawal makes those hours worse...

Of course, if your a "Night owl", your afternoon "lull" will be later than someone who's up by 7am every day, but you get the point...

 The "lull" that hits the brain after being conscious 8 or so hours.

Happy calculating...

 

 

[Sottana]

@Colonial yeah! If making up for that five hour period is all I need, that would be great! My symptoms seem to be worst at night, so im hoping this at least makes somewhat of a difference! 

[sunnysideup69]

On 7/23/2020 at 7:55 PM, Adili13 said:

@Colonial
 

@sunnysideup69 it is a crazy journey! It seems like you’ve been making some real strides. You’ve always given me so much hope and inspiration, sunny. I’ve seen some improvements but overall, I’m still very sick. Akathisia has improved, and that’s the biggest one. I’ll probably wind up holding one full year just to see how much I can stabilize, then I’ll have to get on with my taper. I think a lot can happen in 3 months though! Fingers crossed!! Thanks for popping in, you’re the best!!! Xxx

 

I hear ya, on your overall condition. You're still in recovery and not healed yet. So glad that you are seeing improvements, however slow, they are a sign that your brain is sorting itself out. It will get there. If my 51 year old, much abused brain can recover, so can yours.😉

I've started documenting my recovery on my YouTube channel...it's quite therapeutic to listen back to it. 

My skin is still whack, 8 months now. Very odd being 51 and a half and having acne for the first time.😐

Personally I think it's a great idea for you to wait longer before tapering....a LOT can change in three months and you really want to be as stable as possible. I'm just over 11 months holding and am going to hold for as long as it takes to feel pretty much back to stable, with really subtle waves. Been corresponding with Mirage on here, who has held I believe for three years. She's an inspiration when it comes to hanging in there and holding.

[Sottana]

@sunnysideup69 we’re going to get there together, I’m sure of it! That’s so cool about the YouTube! I’d love to check it out! What’s the name of your page? PM me if you don’t feel comfortable sharing it publicly. The acne think I sooooo relate to, though, it must be extra hard and strange at your age. I hope when we get off meds our skin improves drastically, I’m sure it will. Yeah, I know you’ve been holding a while too, you’ve done so well! I’m sure you’ll see even more improvements before you decide to taper. I’ve never heard of mirage. That’s a super long time to hold, I’ve never heard of a hold that long. I’m sure they’re improving more and more or holding for other reasons. We’re all trying to find out own path, one day at a time. 

[Sottana]

Tried split dosing and it made me incredibly dizzy. Even moving back the dose one hour made me feel like the room was spinning. Incredibly disappointed. 

[Colonial]

So you took 50% at the normal time and the other 50% 1 hour later?

For how many days?  

What was the timing schedule?

 

If you had gone straight to 12 hours apart I'd expect a change but not 1 hour.

But, only you know what else is going on that could have provoked an uptick in symptoms.

 

[Sottana]

@Colonial only moved it an hour back and it definitely increased dizziness 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

[Colonial]

Well, you've been on that schedule a long time, give it time to even out before you change it again for sure! 💖

[Sottana]

Anyone find they just never stabilized from holding so they just decided to taper? I’m getting very close to this point and think it’ll probably be my next step. I’m getting very sick of telling myself endlessly that I’ll stabilize with zero progress. I basically feel I need to just taper. 

[ChessieCat]

If you do decide to reduce, my suggestion would be to make a small test reduction to see how you respond.  Perhaps 0.5% or 1% reduction.

[Sottana]

@ChessieCat yeah, those are the cuts I’d tried in the past on previous tapers. 

[ChessieCat]

Well perhaps 0.25mg or 0.5mg.  Even if you only dropped 0.1mg at least you would be reducing the drug and heading in the direction you want to go.

 

18.7   >  18.2     2.6738%

18.2   >  17.8     2.1978%

17.8   >  17.5     1.68539%

17.5   >  17.3      1.14286%

17.3   >  17.1     1.15607%

17.1   >  16.9      1.16959%

 

 

 

[Sottana]

@ChessieCat very true. Less drug is less drug, even if that’s a minuscule amount. Good point. Thanks. 

[ChessieCat]

There do seem to be some doses that members find it difficult to get past.  Unfortunately there is no "rule" to it.  It might be that you need to get past a difficult point and once you get past it you might be able to increase your reductions.

[Sottana]

@ChessieCat yeahhh, 18 mg was when stuff really hit the fan for me. It went downhill realllly fast from that point. I think I’m also panicking because I recently tried to change my dosing schedule and it’s put me into another pretty intense wave. I’ve had a few of these reactions that set me back. The worst being cooking with wine that took about six weeks to recover. I’m hoping this dosing thing isn’t that huge of a setback. I don’t think it would be totally wise to taper while still in this wavey state. I’m essentially sick of reacting to stuff while holding and want to taper but realize I have to get over this other added destabilization. Frustrated to say the least. 

[Sottana]

Anyone out there try splitting their dose to avoid interdose WD and it actually made their symptoms worse and put them into a bad wave? I’m about 10 days out from trying this and it’s really ramped up my dizziness. Crazy, as I only did it for one day. 

[ChessieCat]

Did you move it in one go?  We usually suggest moving it by 1 hour each day.

[Sottana]

I only did it by one hour and the crazy dizziness set in immediately. It hasn’t let up for about 10 days now. @ChessieCat

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, Adili13 said:

I only did it by one hour

 

Yes, I thought that I could remember you doing that.  I wouldn't have thought that moving it by 1 hour would have caused an issue.

 

Is there something else that happened around about the same time or just prior?  Something you might have eaten, eg Chinese food with MSG, or drunk, eg alcohol, or lots of caffeine.  Had you been over exerting yourself exercising or going out a lot or staying up late?  Did you get stressed about anything, eg bad news, work issues, argument?  Or playing overstimulating video games, movie, loud music, bright lights?

[Sottana]

@ChessieCat I did eat a large meal of Chinese food the day before the dosing change. Curious. I didn’t even think about that. It was also the first time I’d had an unhealthy meal in months. No alcohol, caffeine. Also, definitely some stress. 

[sunnysideup69]

Wow @Sottana, fascinating if it was the msg in the Chinese meal. It can really affect people. Makes a friend of mine throw up...so she has to avoid.

 

I also read recently, or heard on Mikhaila Peterson's podcast, something about sulphites in food sending her into a depression, and her dad, Jordan. ( I follow her on you tube because am fascinated by how she's cured her 'depression' through the Carnivore diet.)

 

She got over it, but her dad started taking benzos....

.

[Colonial]

MSG is a killer for withdrawal. It may have been that and not the 1 hour time split.

 

I also thought you had said in the past, please correct me if I'm wrong, that you have sometimes takem your entire dose a bit early or late and it didn't give you a reaction. Do you remember doing that?  If you had changed your entire split dose to 12 hours later I would have suspected some symptoms. But if You only did it one day it could very well be something else.  It could be your body still adjusting to the alcohol, the MSG or it could have been a 'stress induced reaction" from worrying about "what if" I try this and it makes me worse. I thought You were sticking with the dosetime change eve though there was dizziness I didn't realize you only ddid it one day.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by ChessieCat
Fixed up post

[Colonial]

Sorry, don't know why that happened. (Previous post has been fixed)

 

Anyway, if you only move 50% 0f your dose one day, I'd look for the reason behind the dizziness elsewhere, either the Chinese food or the Alcohol still.

 

Or if you find yourself worrying a lot right before a doze change you could accidentally be stressing yourself "into" a reaction.

 

Not saying that's what happened to you, I'd suspect it was the MSG, but just because withdrawal is real doesn't mean some percentage of people aren't psycho symatic as well.

 

All you could do is wait it out a bit and try the split dosing again.

 

But realize any change could have a reaction, it all depends on how bad whether you need to stick it out.

If you change back after one day of symptoms you have to realize you'll never get anywhere.

 

But if your still having major dizziness since the 4th it suspect it was probably something other that one day of delaying 50% of your dose by 1 hour.

 

I think we have a thread about MSG Somewhere

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by ChessieCat
added note about post being fixed