Malbec37: tapering off mirtazapine / Remeron and hit major WD

[Malbec37]

2 hours ago, Gridley said:

Are you planning a gradual crossover from the tablets to the homemade liquid?

 

Hi @Gridley good to hear from you and thanks for checking in

 

So my instinct on this occasion is not to do a gradual crossover and just go straight across. The reason is that I tried to do a switch across onto the prescribed liquid and I couldn't, made it to 50 50 then WD so bad that I had to go back...this time the liquid will be made with the exact same brand that I'm now completely settled on so if I just do a straight switch then there's a good chance I will settle easily enough as there is nothing different aside from the fact that it's now a liquid and not a tablet....same brand, same medication and same dose 

 

I know SA recommends gradual crossovers so I'm open minded and interested to hear what you think?

 

 

[Gridley]

8 minutes ago, Malbec37 said:

 

I know SA recommends gradual crossovers so I'm open minded and interested to hear what you think?

 

I know you had a bad experience last time with the crossover, but it's possible that it would've been even worse with a cold switch.

Although you fixed the brand problem by making your own liquid, there are absorption differences between the tablet and the homemade liquid that, to me, argue for a gradual crossover to let your system get acclimated make the switch as little jarring as possible.  Your decision, of course.

[Malbec37]

10 minutes ago, Gridley said:

I know you had a bad experience last time with the crossover, but it's possible that it would've been even worse with a cold switch.

Although you fixed the brand problem by making your own liquid, there are absorption differences between the tablet and the homemade liquid that, to me, argue for a gradual crossover to let your system get acclimated make the switch as little jarring as possible.  Your decision, of course.

 

Yes it's true it could have been even worse with a straight switch before...or it could have been easier. Who knows as the body is always reacting differently 

 

I'll give serious thought to a gradual crossover as I want the switch to be as easy as possible 

 

Nothing happening until end of Sept so plenty of time to consider it 

 

Cheers Gridley and hoping you are well on your journey 

[sunnysideup69]

Hey @Malbec37, good to hear you've stabilised again. Glad for you!

 

I still detect some rushing, dude. Feels a bit like you're 'making up for lost time.' Thing is, if you hurry, things may take twice as long......I'd vote for slow and steady, the Bristolian way  

[Malbec37]

20 hours ago, sunnysideup69 said:

Hey @Malbec37, good to hear you've stabilised again. Glad for you!

Thanks Sunny yes it feels good to be completely stable again!

 

20 hours ago, sunnysideup69 said:

still detect some rushing, dude. Feels a bit like you're 'making up for lost time.' Thing is, if you hurry, things may take twice as long......I'd vote for slow and steady, the Bristolian way  

I don’t feel like I’m rushing particularly...when I got destabilised by trying to crossover onto prescribed liquid I’ve taken as long as necessary to restabilise and then research a new way forward 

 

I’m already 14 months into this and looking at another 24 months to get off at least....so just want to make some progress now that I’m stable again 

Slow and steady does indeed win this race 😀

[sunnysideup69]

Totally understand @Malbec37. You are probably in the throes of preparing to cross over at the moment? Got my fingers crossed for you, wishing it all goes well...let us know how it goes.

[Malbec37]

Hi all here is my update:

 

So a lot has been going on...good news is I continue to feel very stable and in a good long window. There are some more difficult days but nothing like the days of destabilisation and I am feeling very steady. 

 

I have been playing around with making my own liquid solution from my 15mg Milpharm mirt tablet using warm water...I cannot yet decide whether it's necessary to use a suspending agent like maple syrup alongside the water...any insights here? I know people who have tapered successfully using water alone and when you shake it up it does look like the particles are evenly spread when just in water, but maybe adding maple syrup could make it more precise. Hard to say....adding the syrup is just a bit of a hassle that's all. I've also discovered that using a plastic beaker is better than a glass one as the mirt particles stick to the side of a glass one but not a plastic one. Oh the things we have to figure out ha ha!

 

My brother the psychiatrist came to see me and essentially told me that I was putting myself at greater risk of a depressive relapse by removing the protective factor of the medication from my life. He acknowledged how much things had changed from my dark days of recurrent illness and how much more resilient I have become but he does think it places me at more risk due to my history of multiple episodes of clinical depression in the past. It wasn't an easy conversation to have but he does ultimately support me and respect my choice. He is concerned that when there is a future big stressor in my life which is of course inevitable then I won't be able to navigate it and will relapse badly. He doesn't want this and neither do I.

 

It's not easy to be in my position with a brother who is a psychiatrist but it does give me valuable other perspectives which I'm grateful for.

 

I was planning to switch to the liquid this Saturday but after some thought I've decided to delay for at least 4 weeks and possibly longer. There are some stressors on the horizon like changes at work and also a new person coming to live in my house...alongside having just started a new relationship with someone which brings possible emotional turbulence, so I think it's wise to actually hold on my dose and feel my way through it. Also I am doing so well at 15mg and it can't do me any harm at all to stay here a little while longer for my CNS to catch up completely and also see how I navigate these stressors whilst on a reduced therapeutic dose. If, as I expect, it goes fairly well then it'll give me renewed confidence for the journey ahead.

 

So that' where I'm at, holding for now and consolidating my position. I can see that sometimes I am inpatient and don't recognise my achievements but I have reduced my drug load from 30mg to 15mg after nearly 7 years on 30mg mirt and for this I am very proud of myself.

 

Hope all are well

 

Malbec 

[Gridley]

@Malbec37

Sounds good, Malbec.

[Ripley]

Hi @Malbec37

 

I'm afraid I don't have any insights into making the suspension as I haven't done it, although I think it's discussed in the 'tapering mirtazapine' section?

 

Consolidating your position with a 4 week hold sounds good, especially if you have some stressors on the horizon. And you should indeed feel pleased with the progress you've made after 7 years - you're halfway there!

 

Ripley 

[sunnysideup69]

On 9/30/2020 at 3:36 PM, Malbec37 said:

 

My brother the psychiatrist came to see me and essentially told me that I was putting myself at greater risk of a depressive relapse by removing the protective factor of the medication from my life. He acknowledged how much things had changed from my dark days of recurrent illness and how much more resilient I have become but he does think it places me at more risk due to my history of multiple episodes of clinical depression in the past. It wasn't an easy conversation to have but he does ultimately support me and respect my choice. He is concerned that when there is a future big stressor in my life which is of course inevitable then I won't be able to navigate it and will relapse badly. He doesn't want this and neither do I.

 

It's not easy to be in my position with a brother who is a psychiatrist but it does give me valuable other perspectives which I'm grateful for.

 

It's great that your brother cares so much. I know he is only wanting you to be well and happy.

There is a risk, of course, that stress will impact us negatively in the future....but that also happens ON the drugs. Lots of people 'relapse' whilst on them, end up having their dose bumped up/ medication switched etc. That in itself proves there is no wonder drug that renders us immune to life's stresses - which is why self soothing techniques are advocated so strongly here, I guess. 

Also, the way that tapering is advocated here is so slow here and you would hold if going through a majorly stressful period, wouldn't you? I certainly would. Perhaps he is also picking up on some of that previous feeling of 'being in a rush' that I was commenting on. I agree that you've done really well and yes, you should be proud of where you're at now. To jeopardise that would be a shame. Taking it a little easier sounds good.

Am really glad to read that you're going to hang on for a bit longer, I think it makes total sense. And also, I want to say, don't let his concerns chip at your confidence. The benefit of holding a bit longer is that as time passes, you feel more confident in yourself and gradually the horrors of WD start to fade away. That's what I've found anyway.

By the way, was in good old Chippenham last weekend. 

 

 

[Starboy17]

Hi all,

 

I'm experiencing some intense guilt/shame the last couple of days.  So much that at times I'm shaky throughout the day and have had some early morning waking with nightmares.  My lawyer lodged compensation for child sexual abuse over a year ago and they came back with an offer.  It relates to institutional child sexual abuse, one particular incident I can't recall if it was at the institution or elsewhere, all the others I'm confident about except this one. I put it down that it occurred at the institution at the time cause I thought it was there but my memory is not the best, i was using drugs at the time the abuse occurred and it was over 24yrs ago. I wrote a brief statement a year ago and since then it has made me reflect on things and is why I'm  now I'm no longer certain about that one.  I just want to remove the one incident from my statement but I have to wait til Tuesday as tomorrow is a public holiday and nothing will be open.  I'm going to call my therapist on Tuesday to get some help managing my emotions as i feel overwhelmed. I worry that they wont believe my entire statement, or i may get into trouble, I didn't falsely accuse anyone as i don't know the name nor could I even identify the face of the person. I just want to move forward with my life, i also want my statement to contain things I am certain about. I'm so tempted to double my dose of mirtazapine but i know that's too big of an increase but feel disappointed given all the hard work I've put in getting down to this small dose.

 

How can i manage this? what strategies could you suggest?

[Malbec37]

Short update;

 

I'm struggling rather badly and in a long wave all week. I feel anxious and sleeping poorly and low in mood, my head is buzzing and I feel very emotional. 

 

I have been quite under the weather recently and then on Sunday I went out with a woman who I have been dating....she likes a drink and I just felt like I wanted to be normal and forget about this whole WD so I had some drinks and then we went to a small gathering (6 people) and there was LOADS of alcohol and I felt pretty socially anxious so I drank more and mixed my drinks including spirits and then I also ate a lot of delicious homemade apple pie filled with gluten and sugar and then had ice cream....anyway suffice to say that all of that especially the large amounts of alcohol have played havoc on my fragile nervous system and tipped me into a wave all week and I feel so unwell and sad...there has been a fair few tears and feelings of loneliness and depression.

 

Sometimes it feels like this withdrawal is in fact some sort of nightmare that I'll wake from but it's not it's real

 

Do you think that when/if we ever manage to get off the pills that our nervous system will go back to normal and become desensitised? Or are we now like this forever? Is there any hope of things becoming easier eventually?

 

I guess I just wanted to do normal things 

 

I'm practicing as much self care as I can and thankfully I've had the week off work although in a strange way I have missed the structure of working 

[Gridley]

17 minutes ago, Malbec37 said:

 

Do you think that when/if we ever manage to get off the pills that our nervous system will go back to normal and become desensitised? Or are we now like this forever? Is there any hope of things becoming easier eventually?

 

I';m sorry you're feeling bad, Malbec.  Just do a lot of self-care and take it easy.

 

Yes, we do heal and become de-sensitized.  Things will get easier eventually.  Read some success stories if you're up to it.

[juneight]

You exposed yourself to a histamine bomb brother. Alcohol, sugar, carbs and more. Even a thumb of chocolate is enough to send me into despair for few days. Please try to be away these ones until this journey finish. Then we gather somewhere no matter your country or mine and say cheers together.

 

Please stick to a slow taper and then do a low histamine diet if necessary. I know it is for me and most people. So dont be hopeless. We are here to support each other...

[sunnysideup69]

Hey @Malbec37, I can relate to that. In 2019 I kept trying to tolerate alcohol. I would reward myself with a drink at the end of term ...literally just a glass of prosecco...and it would throw me into a wave. Have not touched alcohol now since April 2019...I do believe, as Gridley says, that we eventually heal and become desensitised. Just look after yourself well over the next weeks. 

 

My diet has also slipped over the last month and am doing a gluten/sugar reset ie banning them again. I think the approaching dark makes me crave chocolate.

 

Sorry you're not feeling so good but you know what the cause is, PLUS the world is a bit weird right now and it's getting darker. Sending good wishes to you  

 

 

[Malbec37]

1 hour ago, juneight said:

You exposed yourself to a histamine bomb brother. Alcohol, sugar, carbs and more. Even a thumb of chocolate is enough to send me into despair for few days. Please try to be away these ones until this journey finish. Then we gather somewhere no matter your country or mine and say cheers together.

 Thanks I would love to have a drink with you one day to celebrate success

[Malbec37]

4 minutes ago, sunnysideup69 said:

Sorry you're not feeling so good but you know what the cause is, PLUS the world is a bit weird right now and it's getting darker. Sending good wishes to you  

 Thanks for the good wishes Sunny

 

[Malbec37]

1 hour ago, Gridley said:

Yes, we do heal and become de-sensitized.  Things will get easier eventually.

 That's good to know we will one day get better....gives me some hope 

[juneight]

you could see the story of Dave here, he is one of the buddy of mine and if he did, we all could do.

 

 

[Ripley]

Hey Malbec

 

I just want to sympathise with you and hope you come out of your wave soon. I totally understand the desire to feel normal and have a few drinks and forget about this horrible business and it's such a shame we can't do that for one evening and have a break! It's really reassuring to hear Gridley say that it will improve with time and we won't always be like this, as I worry about that too.

 

In a way, I find the social side of things easier to manage at the moment with Covid restrictions as people I know aren't really going out and meeting up in the evenings the way they would normally. It feels flat though, but it has been the least of my worries with my WD insomnia to be honest.

 

I'm in a wave too and had 2 zero nights this week and feel so tired of it all. I was watching a nature programme with little animals curling up and going to sleep so easily and I longed to be able to do the same. It feels an unnatural and upsetting state to be in sometimes. 

 

However, at least we understand what's going on thanks to SA and have a roadmap out. We have to make the necessary sacrifices to look after our systems and treat them as gently as we can. And then sneak away this drug as surreptitiously as possible! 

 

Being able to function normally is worth the sacrifices. But hopefully one day we can sneak in a drink or stay up late or eat an easter egg and it'll be ok. 

 

Hugs

Ripley

[sunnysideup69]

Also, @Malbec37, I've also been feeling ill since last Thursday, 2nd October. Kind of flu like. Have ordered a covid test. Have you done one? If you've got any kind of virus, that's gonna affect your mood as your immune system fights with it. Sending hugs x

[Malbec37]

9 hours ago, Ripley said:

I'm in a wave too and had 2 zero nights this week and feel so tired of it all. I was watching a nature programme with little animals curling up and going to sleep so easily and I longed to be able to do the same. It feels an unnatural and upsetting state to be in sometimes. 

 

Hey Ripley I'm sure you've done this already but have you tried very strong high quality CBD for the insomnia? Reason I ask is that my friend managed to get off mirt pretty quickly after 10 years on it and she was able to deal with the insomnia using CBD

9 hours ago, Ripley said:

Being able to function normally is worth the sacrifices. But hopefully one day we can sneak in a drink or stay up late or eat an easter egg and it'll be ok. 

 

Yes I agree - today I feel more resolved to do what is necessary to keep moving forwards...my health comes first and one dy I'll be able to have a few guilt free drinks again and not worry about how it'll affect me 

[Malbec37]

9 hours ago, sunnysideup69 said:

Also, @Malbec37, I've also been feeling ill since last Thursday, 2nd October. Kind of flu like. Have ordered a covid test. Have you done one? If you've got any kind of virus, that's gonna affect your mood as your immune system fights with it. Sending hugs x

 

Hey @sunnysideup69funny after I read this I managed to go and have one today so will wait and see....my symptoms were not very Covid but I did have a bit of a cough so who knows

[Malbec37]

23 hours ago, juneight said:

you could see the story of Dave here, he is one of the buddy of mine and if he did, we all could do.

 

 

Thanks!! I'll take a read later x

[Malbec37]

Hey everyone just a quick update to say I am 10 days into this god awful wave which was triggered by drinking a lot of alcohol (I know big mistake)...been a pretty dark period but thank goodness I was off work with annual leave and I do feel like maybe I'm turning a corner....better mood today, sleep has been awful but that can only improve. Back to work tomorrow but only a couple of days. 

 

I know for sure 100% that I need to get out of my job as a mental health support worker and try to find something a little less intense for the next part of my journey. I also know to absolutely never binge on alcohol even after 9 months stabilising on 15mg mirtazapine. Maybe one day I can get merrily drunk again and not pay this sort of terrible price but that's a long way off in the future.

 

I think what I'm starting to understand is that this is possible but just have to navigate this very delicate and fragile nervous system through the journey...I can literally feel my nervous system sort of screaming in pain although less intensely today....but really it's trying to heal right!? So this too shall pass and I will get through this 

 

Also have been under the weather for weeks and unable to recover and had a Covid test and negative so that's a good thing!

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, Malbec37 said:

but really it's trying to heal right!?

Correct.

[sunnysideup69]

@Malbec37, hey dude, how ya doin'? Hope that wave let up?

[Malbec37]

Hi @sunnysideup69 nice ot hear from you...I'm stuck in windows and waves. My sleep is generally pretty poor and I'm exhausted most of the time....I just can't seem to properly settle down, it's been nearly a month now. I'm struggling.a lot of the time and just getting through one day at a time. I also have chronic back pain which doesn't help and gets me even more down on the bad days 

 

I'm usually such an energetic person but this withdrawal has taken a lot of that away from me and it all makes me so sad....but I persevere and know I will heal eventually even though it feels like a far off place 

 

I feel somewhat overwhelmed by this whole experience. Good news is that I am starting my councelling again next week after a 3 week break when I could have done with it the most 

 

I just wish I could get more restful sleep as everyday is a slog without it....trying all sorts of supplements to help. Also had a cold for about 2 months because I'm not sleeping well so can't shake it off!

 

Sorry depressing update but that's sort of how it is...all this rain and greyness and Covid doesn't help of course 

 

Love from Bristol x 

[sunnysideup69]

Hey @Malbec37, it will all settle down again....when your system has a jolt, it needs to recalibrate. Also, the clocks going back an hour can affect some of us.

There has been an absolute stinker of a cold going around school which takes ages to get over, any kind of illness can give us a knock. I'm sure you'll settle again, but yes, I know it's a bit of a slog and you can feel 'battle fatigued.' 

Hope your sleep evens out- mine can be a bit erratic. Also seems to go in waves of healing. As does my skin.

Will be sending you a virtual wave from Chippenham tomorrow....off to see my parents for the weekend  

[Malbec37]

@sunnysideup69thanks for the positivity I really needed it. Yes I guess it will settle in time...just need to be incredibly patient and resilient 

 

Have a great time with your parents x 

[Malbec37]

Good news I slept through the night last night for the first time in 4 weeks! What a relief...hoping for more of the same again tonight. Feel like hopefully things are now settling properly and November can be a better month than October! I can't believe that drinking alcohol and having some sugar in the same evening could destabilise me for 4 weeks! Well actually I can...the nervous system is so fragile and sensitive. It's been a real challenge but feel I am getting slowly more stable...no more drinking for me ha ha. Oh well Christmas is cancelled anyways 

 

Hope all are well x 

 

[Ripley]

Hey Malbec, that's really good to hear! I hope last night was also good for you and you're starting a happier period.

 

I'm still having awful sleep but I think I've worked out what might be causing it and will post in a few days.

 

Rx

[juneight]

Hey, i am happy to hear that you healed some. As, i said alcohol is dangerous for both wd and histamine problems. I am now suffering balance problems. 10 days. Have you or any of you suffered this ever?

[sunnysideup69]

How ya doin' dude?

[Malbec37]

5 hours ago, sunnysideup69 said:

How ya doin' dude?

 

Not too bad. Been a pretty grim few weeks with a lot of waves but today I'm feeling better...sleep is still a big issue and is so easily affected by stress. Feeling somewhat daunted about the road ahead but trying to remain upbeat and live in the present moment.

[sunnysideup69]

Good stuff. Yeah, I've had a few dodgy weeks, also. I'm putting it down to stress and also, three weeks ago it suddenly got much darker in the evenings. I'm sure that for those of us going through 'antidepressant adventures', that can be a bit of a jolt. Am more sensitive to these things than I used to be , for sure.

Keep your chin up, glad you're feeling a bit better today, slow and steady does it.