omnispan: hitting the slopes of paroxetine withdrawal

[omnispan]

Hello,

 

I've been very grateful for this site, comforting me in the knowledge that I'm not alone in my battle.

 

10% taper is working slowly but steadily, it'll be a while but I'm planning on finishing it this way.

 

Withdrawal is not pleasant, but it doesn't suck as much as it did. 

Eating healthy (I got a really nice juicer) has been the biggest factor in helping manage my withdrawal symptoms, and mental wellbeing in general.

 

Thanks for all of your stories,

omnispan

[ChessieCat]

Ho omnispan and welcome to SA,

 

I'm really pleased that you discovered SA and that the information available here has been helpful.

When tapering the idea is to taper at a rate that does not produce more than minimal withdrawal symptoms. 

 

Are you currently experiencing withdrawal symptoms?  If yes, then it might be time to hold on your current dose for a while and let your brain catch up.  It is better to hold when needed than to continue tapering when you are still getting withdrawal symptoms.  We have members here who have continued tapering despite their symptoms and have had to hold for a long time and it has ended up taking them longer to get off their drug than if they had slowed down.

 

WDnormal

 

Dr Joseph Glenmullen's WD Symptoms Checklist

 

A couple of things that you might find helpful.  Some members find that there are certain doses which they have more difficulty getting past then other doses.  It is not specific to a dose or a drug so we aren't able to say when you get to 'x' mg hold for longer.  You need to listen to your body.  Also many members find that as their dose gets lower they need to got slower by tapering less and/or holding longer.

 

Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

 

There are many existing topics on SA.  I prefer to use a search engine and add site: survivingantidepressants.org to my search term.

 

This is your own introduction topic where you can ask questions and journal your progress.

[Hanna72]

Hi @omnispan

Welcome from me too

Glad to have you with us, another upcoming Paxil survivor. Well done on your accomplishment so far.

Just wanted to wish you all the best.

Take care🙏

[omnispan]

Thank you everyone for your replies

 

On 9/10/2020 at 11:46 PM, ChessieCat said:

When tapering the idea is to taper at a rate that does not produce more than minimal withdrawal symptoms. 

 

Are you currently experiencing withdrawal symptoms?  If yes, then it might be time to hold on your current dose for a while and let your brain catch up.  It is better to hold when needed than to continue tapering when you are still getting withdrawal symptoms.  We have members here who have continued tapering despite their symptoms and have had to hold for a long time and it has ended up taking them longer to get off their drug than if they had slowed down.

 

My withdrawal symptoms come at a fairly regular schedule, and I always give them sufficient time to pass before switching doses.

They generally curve up over a week and peak at around 2-3 weeks after switching doses, then curve down over a week.  That all fits within a month, so I generally taper down 10% at the start of each month.

 

On 9/10/2020 at 11:46 PM, ChessieCat said:

A couple of things that you might find helpful.  Some members find that there are certain doses which they have more difficulty getting past then other doses.  It is not specific to a dose or a drug so we aren't able to say when you get to 'x' mg hold for longer.  You need to listen to your body.  Also many members find that as their dose gets lower they need to got slower by tapering less and/or holding longer.

 

Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

 

Thank you for the warning, I will be mindful of that potential as I progress.

The biggest thing withdrawal has taught me is how to listen to my own body (even not in the context of withdrawal), so I will continue to remain vigilant.

 

Cheers

omnispan

[ChessieCat]

Sounds like you've already learned a lot.  Great to hear that you are listening to your body.

 

We encourage members to learn and use Non-drug techniques to cope

 

Also, there are many topics/discussions on SA.  I like to use a search engine and add site: survivingantidepressants.org to my search term.

 

Alternatively you can visit the other forums and check out the topics in them.

 

You might also be interested in Success stories: Recovery from withdrawal

 

[omnispan]

One year later...

 

I've stayed lurking around here a lot, especially during the harder waves.  Reading all the wonderful success stories has been inspirational.

I'm an introvert by nature, so I never got around to updating my thread until now.

 

Most of the last year has been the same old WDnormal.  Staying stalwart and everything has been manageable.  The ups and downs have remained regular. Generally one wave a month, a few weeks after dose drop.

 

Over winter I had changed my monthly drops to 6.6% to better cope with my seasonal depressive issues (Wisconsin winters and my poor heat-retentive body never mixed well).

Kept the 10% drops in warmer weather.

 

In June and July I switched to doing weekly 2.5% drops, and am holding at 7mg this August while I finally kicked a Giardia infection that outstayed its welcome.

The 2.5% drops made my symptoms fluctuate much less week-to-week, so I plan on reusing that way of tapering.

However, I believe I may not have given myself enough time to stabilize after the two months of continual dropping, as during my August hold here I developed a distressing wave around 5 days ago that I have thankfully been climbing out of the past several days.  Neuro-depression still rearing its head during this small climb, but its getting less frequent/intense.  I'm still stressed out about it though, as its been a good while since I've had a wave like this happen.

I've come back to the forums several times a day in the past few, looking for emotional relief.  @brassmonkey's story was the best shining beacon I found in my climb out of the wave, his stalwartness in the face of his taper is superbly inspirational.

 

My plan going forward is to improve upon the 2.5% a week, by holding for a month after four 2.5% drops, until I know what I can handle best.

Once I hit 5mg I plan on doing an extended hold to really let things settle.  This will be in preparation for the rougher patch in the few milligrams to follow.

 

That 5mg extended hold will also be around when I graduate college!  I'll have a double major in Computer Science and Math after I finish this fall semester, and oh boy the prospect of finding a job is intimidating and stress-inducing. 

That is also a secondary reason for the hold, to allow myself to adjust to a new lifestyle as I find an apartment and prepare for a life outside of school.

 

---

 

Even though I'm too shy to really participate much on the forum here, I am in awe of the support that has come from all the amazing members here.  I look forward to reading any replies!

 

Cheers!

Geoff (omnispan)

 

 

[brassmonkey]

The nice thing about this forum is that it is anonymous, so no one needs to know you are shy. It is a great way to push your comfort zone a little at a time. All the members are quite friendly. Dip a toe at first and see how it goes.

[omnispan]

3 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

The nice thing about this forum is that it is anonymous, so no one needs to know you are shy. It is a great way to push your comfort zone a little at a time. All the members are quite friendly. Dip a toe at first and see how it goes.

 

For sure!  I hope to reach out more about some of my recent struggles, once I get motivated enough to.

[omnispan]

Okay, so I'm im a predicament and would love any and all feedback.  I'm not having a great time the past several days, and I have a few theories as to why, and would love further insight.

 

Over the past week I have been the process of "fixing" my sleep schedule, in preparation for 10am classes this coming semester.   

For the past extended period of time, my routine has been to get out of bed around 2-3pm, prep breakfast, and take my meds about an hour after waking up.  I would also be going to bed around 3-5am.  Not an ideal setup, it just kinda kept getting pushed back over time.

 

My process for fixing my schedule has been to progressively wake up one hour each day, and pushing back the accompanying medication dose one hour as well.  
Accompanying this has been a general increase in WD symptoms, with each successive day getting gradually more intense.

Heat/cold flashes, sweating, strong loss of appetite, general apathy and lethargy, general anxiety/stress/sense of dread, generally a whole lot of unpleasantness.

 

By today, I was waking up and dosing about five hours earlier than normal.  Accompanied by an increase in the usual unpleasantness.   I am feeling this was a huge mistake, as I approached the dose time change too quickly.  Does this sound plausible?

 

I need to continue fixing my waking up time because I have to, but tomorrow I am going to push my dose time back to 2pm and see if that helps fix things.

 

-----

 

My worry has been engaged, and I am paranoid about anything else that could be happening.  My main huge fear is that I am progressing into a crash.  The sort that I have read about with several other paxil tapers on this forum, around this general dose range (Im currently at 7mg).

 

My main alternative theory is that I have been trying a strong probiotic regimen in an attempt to alleviate IBS symptoms, which I read over at https://beyondmeds.com/2010/06/30/cureirritablebowel/.

In short, it involves working up 1 probiotic capsule a week until reaching 8 capsules a day.  I have done that for the past month, and am currently at 5 capsules a day.

I worry that changing my gut flora this way may have upset some sort of balance.

 

-----

 

I really really hope that reinstating my usual dose time will help fix things, and if it doesn't, then I will start considering an updose.

[omnispan]

Good news!

 

Changing my dose time back closer to its usual time has had good results.

 

I can tell my system is still very upset and on edge as a result of what I just put it through over the past week. 

I'm still not in a good way, but there's a noticeable fraction of improvement compared to yesterday, which is a very welcome sign.

 

Yesterday I was extremely lethargic, was only able to eat my first meal of the day by like 7pm, and wasn't able to eat dinner for the first time in a long while.

Today I went out and got groceries, got some italian food around 3, and was able to finish it by 5pm.  Went to work, still feeling very off, mentally and physically sluggish.  Still made it through, at the expense of a few mistreated cows that were being rebellious.  Got food now in front of me, picking away at it slowly.

 

I hope I can continue to stabilize back towards my usual WDnormal, though it might take some time 😔

[Cheeky]

Hi Ommispan,

wow your doing amazing, your approach to tapering is great and how to read your body is great . I’m on Paxil as well and currently at 20mg and would love to be were you are. Your doing so well . Stay strong 💪 

[omnispan]

11 hours ago, Cheeky said:

Hi Ommispan,

wow your doing amazing, your approach to tapering is great and how to read your body is great . I’m on Paxil as well and currently at 20mg and would love to be were you are. Your doing so well . Stay strong 💪 

Thanks Cheeky.

 

I've been reading your thread a bunch, I am really glad that the 1mg updose was enough to improve things a lot.  Sorry a wave came though .  Keep on truckin forward!  I'll be rooting for you  

 

In fact, your updose relief helped inspire me to do the same.  Today I updosed to 7.5, and I plan on holding here until I finish college this winter, and my life stabilizes enough to get back to tapering.

 

Cheers!

[omnispan]

Okay, now I'm having second thoughts on the updose.  It is hard to tell, but it lessened some issues and intensified others.  Moreover it upset my usual late-night stability in a way I'm not happy with.

 

Should I go back down to 7mg and stabilize there?    I feel if I want to updose I should've done it slowly. 

 

I feel I am trying too much changes in a desperate attempt to undo the crash I caused a week ago.

 

I feel very distressed over what issues I'm causing for myself, don't know the best way to proceed.

My mind tells me to just stay put, but my distressed emotional state tells me to check every possible avenue for relief.

[Colonial]

Hi there,

Sorry this wave hit.

This may have been an issue of both dose changing and also changing time of day too close to each other, it happens.

I can't read where you tapered down from what dose to what, and then what day you updosed to what new dose.

 

2021 August 22 | Paxil 7.04mg |

 

Is that what you updosed to or down from?

If so what were the 2 dose changes you made before that?

Or is that what you dropped down to and then upped since then?

 

Also, what formulation of paxil are you on, regular release tablet or liquid, and do you know how long the manufacturer claims it stays in the body?

My liquid Paxil was only a 19 hour med so meds with short lives like that would be sensitive to a radical time change.

 

Depending on what your dosing schedule was, you may not need an adjustment now that the symptoms are reducing from getting the med back closer to the normal time. Updosing is useful for symptoms from dropping too much med, not for changing the dosage schedule. It can even accidentally make you worse if you updose too much and or since now you are doing 2 different things at one time. It also unnecessarily un does all the great work we did to get down that far.  If you only updosed a few days now you should be ok to go back down but I really need to see everything orderly in the signature.

 

Can you fill out your signature with exact dose and date changes since april and the dates you changed the timings?

Thanks

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Colonial

[omnispan]

2 hours ago, Colonial said:

Is that what you updosed to or down from?

If so what were the 2 dose changes you made before that?

Or is that what you dropped down to and then upped since then?

 

I updated my signature with my complete taper history.

I took just one dose of 7.5 (up from my usual 7 of the past weeks) yesterday (August 27th).  I realized very quickly that that was a poor rash decision, especially with the increase of issues it caused on that day.  I don't plan on updosing again, just holding where I am at (7mg) going forward.

 

2 hours ago, Colonial said:

Also, what formulation of paxil are you on, regular release tablet or liquid, and do you know how long the manufacturer claims it stays in the body?

Regular release tablet of 10mgai, 125mgpw.  I have no information on manufacturer claims, nor could I find any on their website.  I literally just learned for the first time in looking it up that my manufacturer is Zydus Pharmaceuticals, which aside from a few refills in the past year due to supply shortages, has been my manufacturer for my entire medication history as far as I can remember.

Aside, I know that my whole family (fathers side, inherited by me and my sister) have very fast metabolisms, as it is nearly impossible to put on fat, and missing a regular meal tends to quickly cause blood sugar or energy issues.  I don't know if that is relevant to metabolizing this sort of medication, I figured I would just add it anyways.

 

2 hours ago, Colonial said:

Depending on what your dosing schedule was, you may not need an adjustment now that the symptoms are reducing from getting the med back closer to the normal time. Updosing is useful for symptoms from dropping too much med, not for changing the dosage schedule.

Thank you for stating this, this was my suspicion in hindsight.  I really appreciate your feedback here, I feel a lot more confident with my hold now 

 

 

2 hours ago, Colonial said:

Can you fill out your signature with exact dose and date changes since april and the dates you changed the timings?

I'll elaborate on the timings here.

Going from memory, probably not fully accurate

 

August 18th was when I decided to fix my sleep schedule.  Up to this point I was regularly getting to bed around 2-4am, getting out of bed 2-3pm, and dosing sometime in the next hour.

19th, set alarm clock for 1pm, dosed later between 2-3pm

20th, clock for 12pm, dosed around 1

21st, clock for 11am, dosed later between 12-1

22st, clock for 10am, dosed around 10:30am.  All hell broke loose later that day and worsened over the next day or two, until:

 

Sometime a few days after I reinstated my dose time to around 1-1:30pm, where I have been keeping it since then.  I think this helped alleviate some symptoms of the crash, though I'm still in a daily limbo hell worse than any wave I have experienced in my entire taper by a significant margin.

 

Dosing around 1-2pm ends up being the easiest time for regular dosing during my final college semester (got a break for an hour from 1-2), I've still been debating whether to push it back even closer to the "usual" 3-4 or if I should keep it here because I've already been doing it for several days, and if my circadian rhythm would prefer it as I'm already waking up sooner than before. 

 

 

For the sake of thoroughness, and because hindsight is 20/20, there are a few other major things that I neglected to mention that probably factored into the instability that caused this crash:

1. Early in July when I was on a camping trip for two weeks, I developed what I believe was a Giardia infection from drinking straight unfiltered spring water for several days straight.  I never got it professionally diagnosed even though I really should have, but I did take a script of Metronidazole (an antibiotic) that definitely aided my recovery.  This infection absolutely wrecked my digestive system, where for weeks I had to take a dose of Pepto Bismol with every meal just so it wouldn't come out as liquid on the other end six hours later.  Whenever I didn't, my blood sugar/energy level crashed as if I hadn't even taken the meal at all.    This was a problem for nearly six weeks, with clear progressive improvement over the entire period.  It wasn't until about a week or two ago that I tried not taking Pepto and didn't notice an energy level shift down.  I would not be surprised if there's still some remnants of the infection around, but that's just speculation.  In conclusion, I bet both the infection and the script of antibiotics probably contributed to my instability leading to this crash.
2. I have always been sloppy with my dose measurements, about 2.5mgpw in either direction.  I use a Gemini-20 scale for measuring all my doses, and I've always aimed for about a 5mgpw range for each dose measurement, centered on the target dose. (The Gemini scale itself is mostly to blame for why I made this concession).   This means that my day to day doses (for the whole taper!) have varied by up to about 0.2mgai above or below my actual target dose, every day.  I don't know how major of an impact this has had on my tapering performance or this crash, but it for sure did not improve stability.  Going forward I am going to see what I can do to eliminate this.  Whether using a compounding pharmacy or investing in a high quality milligram scale.  And being much more patient with the Gemini in the meantime

 

Sorry for this wall of text, I tend to overthink a lot.  Any insight/reactions at all would be extremely appreciated.  Also... (see next post)

 

 

 

[Colonial]

10 minutes ago, omnispan said:

I don't plan on updosing again, just holding where I am at (7mg) going forward.

 

That's good, after reading the rest of the post I don't think an up dose is the answer. I think it's an issue of illness and on new meds, and when that happens it's best to stop a taper or your body is trying to heal and deal with too many changes at once.  Then that probably set you up to push you over the end with the time change.  The dose irregularity with the scale can't help long term either.  The lower you go the more important it will be to get that as close as you really can.

 

All in all, you've made significant progress in only six months on one of the most difficult meds, from 11.2 to 7.2, that's very impressive.

How long it will take you to stabilize may depend on if the illness is resolved and picking the right time you want to take the med going forward, picking a deadline if necessary to getting to that time and move to that time gradually.  If you don't have a deadline that You can move only half an hour once every 3 or 4 days if that helps smooth the transition. 

 

And being symptomatic, getting the dosages as close to perfect is really going to go along way to beating this wave sooner than later.

When we're destabilized by so many little things that add up, they all have to be attended to in order to get pack to feeling well.

It's always ignoring the little things in life that set us up for disaster long term.

 

And a proper diet will help in the long run.

I think you just got hit with a few things a once, and when that happens, the tapers need to pause until we're back in shape again.

I think if you go back to the 7.0, and hold at this time for a few weeks, (if possible), keep your day as stress free as you can, eat well and relax and not stress over getting worse, you should be doing better soon.  This really only just started and I think if you hold tight with a positive attitude you'll do great.

 

 

 

[omnispan]

EDIT:  I started writing this right after submitting my previous post, my internet pooped out for a bit as it tend to do at this hour

 

DOUBLE EDIT:  Thanks for your reply Colonial, you beat me to it before I could even thank you .  I'll definitely be pausing right where I'm at for a long amount of time, to let things settle at whatever pace my CNS can do

 

I want to give some time for some kind words back to you @Colonial.  I read (okay, sometimes skimmed) your entire intro thread over a week ago, and revisited it several times since.  I am so so sorry you are going through your recent crash, my heart cried out when I hit that part of your story.  You've done so well, and stayed so absolutely f**king strong through your whole ordeal.  I wish I was as strong as you, and I know you will make it out of this in time.  Your activity and diligence in helping the other users on this forum is extremely inspirational, I hope to be able to do the same just like you have been.

 

I've been meaning to reach out to you, but I just didn't know how to approach it considering I'm just dipping my toes in the sand compared to so many other people here, I just feel that my issues are insignificant in comparison (though my brain by day would disagree).

From what I've read of your story, I've noticed several similarities between our taper responses. I've been hoping I could ask you for advice because of those.

• Paxil and Wellbutrin, though our doses differed, and I CTed Wellbutrin over two weeks 😬
• Some history of benzo use
• Delayed dose responses.  I rarely had immediate effects from a monthly dose drop, it instead came as a wave about 2-3 weeks after the drop, which would generally smooth out by the end of the month when I would drop again (for most all of my taper)
• Morning anxiety dissipating by evening.  This has been a constant through my entire taper.  Evenings have always been far more peaceful in terms of WD than mornings. For most of my taper the difference was mostly moderate, but In terms of this recent crash of mine, the pattern became clear as black and white. Day to day I'm practically bedridden in misery for the first half of my waking hours, which starts letting up as evening comes, and by late night (like 11pm until bed is the sweet spot) I'm sane enough to write (hence why all my posts are done late at night) and actually able to eat food.

I'm sorry for turning a thank you note into a call for advice, I'm not good at writing this sort of stuff.  I feel bad for asking so much and not giving anything in return   As always, I will forever appreciate any input you or anyone else has to give.  No rush at all

 

Thanks for being awesome Colonial!

[Colonial]

Thank you so much for all the positive feedback, I do appreciate it.

 

I will most certainly come back soon and write more about the questions your asking.

I just had to go update my own thread about my own nightmare in July so I'm a little disoriented right now...

Having to relive what happened and to type it down but I'll come back when I've recovered in a few days or so.

 

Thanks again! 

Hope your having a better day!

 

[Colonial]

On 8/29/2021 at 3:35 AM, omnispan said:

• Paxil and Wellbutrin, though our doses differed, and I CTed Wellbutrin over two weeks 😬
• Some history of benzo use
• Delayed dose responses.  I rarely had immediate effects from a monthly dose drop, it instead came as a wave about 2-3 weeks after the drop, which would generally smooth out by the end of the month when I would drop again (for most all of my taper)
• Morning anxiety dissipating by evening.  This has been a constant through my entire taper.  Evenings have always been far more peaceful in terms of WD than mornings. For most of my taper the difference was mostly moderate, but In terms of this recent crash of mine, the pattern became clear as black and white. Day to day I'm practically bedridden in misery for the first half of my waking hours, which starts letting up as evening comes, and by late night (like 11pm until bed is the sweet spot) I'm sane enough to write (hence why all my posts are done late at night) and actually able to eat food.

 

Wellbutrin gave me some delayed responses as well.  If I had not already been a member here, I would not have known that some of my issues were Wellbutrin related. I had a wave hit me a week shy of 3 months after drooping Wellbutrin. It also severely impacted my monthly cycles.  But if these things don't happen until 4 months after dropping your Wellbutrin in half from 300-150, neither you nor your doctor make the connection.  Which is just the way the manufacturer likes it, so it gets a false label as a safe med with low side effects or adverse events.  Dropping off it gave me extreme thirst.  I told the doctor based on what I had learned here I wanted to check my cortisol and he humored me and ordered the test, and wanted 24 hours of urine and I filled 2 plus bottles, he was shocked, and my cortisol was through the roof.  So at least I had one test result confirming the power these drugs can have interfering with our systems.  He even wanted me to do it a second time once I wasn't consuming so much water since he thought maybe the excess consumption was affecting the results and we did it the second time my levels were even higher. Because I am that over achiever. 😎

 

Your anxiety and schedule of ability for functioning is really classic.

The cortisol is raised in the morning and as it wanes throughout the day it will eventually get better.

However, that mid afternoon "slump" from 4-7 pm can be rough too, especially if dehydrated.

That was the time of day I couldn't eat carbs or they would rush to my brain as sugar and give me sleep paralysis.

But after 10pm we were good to go for a plate of pasta! 

Mind boggling when you think about it, how quickly it changes, like a flash flood.

 

How are you holding up?

Any better or at least not worse?

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Colonial

[omnispan]

Thanks for checking in on me Colonial, I appreciate it so much!

 

 

3 hours ago, Colonial said:

neither you nor your doctor make the connection.  Which is just the way the manufacturer likes it, so it gets a false label as a safe med with low side effects or adverse events.

Amen.  Its really scummy that these pharmas love to get away with testing everything in short term trials, which doesn't take into account the rewiring changes that happen in the long term, and such adverse effects that happen months post-discontinuation.

 

3 hours ago, Colonial said:

Dropping off it gave me extreme thirst.

I vaguely remember something like this from my crash 3 month post wellbutrin discontinuation at the beginning of this journey.  There was also a whirlwind of a bunch of other **** at that time too. 

Looking back I'm considering myself really lucky that I was able to stabilize at an acceptable WDnormal at the beginning there, only after a few months (along with the 10->30mg paxil reinstate, and a complete diet overhaul).

I am curious, as I have read how paxil and wellbutrin are antagonistic in their efficacy.  Maybe having the paxil still around helped make up for the wellbutrin being gone.

 

3 hours ago, Colonial said:

I told the doctor based on what I had learned here I wanted to check my cortisol

 

3 hours ago, Colonial said:

So at least I had one test result confirming the power these drugs can have interfering with our systems.

Huh, thats a really good idea.  I've been meaning to actually talk to my primary care doctor about the WD ive been going through, I just have no confidence as to how to approach it.  When I do get around to it someday I'll definitely push for this test, as I am now really curious what my levels are at.

Congrats on your overachievement there lol!

 

 

3 hours ago, Colonial said:

Your anxiety and schedule of ability for functioning is really classic.

The cortisol is raised in the morning and as it wanes throughout the day it will eventually get better.

However, that mid afternoon "slump" from 4-7 pm can be rough too, especially if dehydrated.

That was the time of day I couldn't eat carbs or they would rush to my brain as sugar and give me sleep paralysis.

But after 10pm we were good to go for a plate of pasta! 

Mind boggling when you think about it, how quickly it changes, like a flash flood.

Thats really good to know, I suspected cortisol as such, from what I've read here.   

That slump definitely kicks my butt from time to time, I'll remember to stay hydrated going forward and hopefully that will help.

I feel that food shift. My gut does not agree with any carbs early on in the day, but come night time I can practically gorge myself on anything (and I do)

 

 

3 hours ago, Colonial said:

How are you holding up?

Any better or at least not worse?

Overall, I'm still struggling day to day, but over the past few days I've started to actually see improvements in a lot of my symptoms, which is a very welcome sign. 

Some of the more debilitating symptoms have straight up vanished, like my hour-long sweaty hot flashes, and the fatigue that kept me bedridden in the afternoon.

Other symptoms have been slowly improving, some haven't improved yet, some are new arrivals (minor light sensitivity and evening headaches).

 

Both Today and Tuesday (two days ago) were absolutely fabulous windows, rays of sunlight in the gloom.  Both were still a ways off from my usual WD normal, but I'm hoping for further brighter days.

 

Definitely still destablized, as the symptoms fluctuate between each day.  Such as the polarizing difference between my tuesday window and the monday/wednesday surrounding it.

 

 

Nearly every evening, the cortisol drop is a huge wave of relief.  While the worries don't leave, a lot of the intrusive symtoms go back to a level I'm much more comfortable dealing with, and I am able to come to terms with, and accept the fact that I will make it through this crash, however long it god damn takes.  This sort of reasoning is barely conceivable during the cortisol spikes, but the relief is always the highlight of each day, and stays as a goal that drives me through the hard part of each day.

 

 

My main issue is my anxiety and coping mechanisms in dealing with all this.  I have major health anxiety, and fluctuating situations like this are absolutely horrifying to me. 

The only coping mechanism I have that is reliable is by distracting myself, which I really wasn't able to even do very well until a couple of days ago.

Acceptance is my biggest issue, I just can't stop thinking about how long this crash will last and I'll go back to WDnormal.  Even though I'm seeing improvement, still very hard to be patient

Also I have my final semester starting six days from now, when I will have to start getting up at 9am instead of my usual 12:30.  I'm so scared of my sensitivity to change that i'm worried it will exacerbate things.  The workload itself is welcome though, its mostly stuff I find easy if not pleasurable to work through, and it would be something to direct my energy towards instead of my anxiety spirals.

 

I've reached out to a few psychotherapists for the first time in a long time, and I look forward to developing some healthy coping skills for me to use going forward with the rest of my WD journey. 

I'm definitely going to be not tapering for a long while here while I work on this self development. 

I haven't been to therapy in over six years, I really need it.

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

[Colonial]

17 hours ago, omnispan said:

21 hours ago, Colonial said:

Dropping off it gave me extreme thirst.

I vaguely remember something like this from my crash 3 month post wellbutrin discontinuation at the beginning of this journey

 

It was awful, it wasn't a normal thirst for me. I was compulsively drinking every 15 minutes. Very hard to explain the difference to others.

 

17 hours ago, omnispan said:

I am curious, as I have read how paxil and wellbutrin are antagonistic in their efficacy.  Maybe having the paxil still around helped make up for the wellbutrin being gone.

Wellbutrin is a Paxil "booster". It delays the Paxil being excreted from the system somehow.

So when your drop your Wellbutrin your dropping the Paxil at the same time, so its a dual taper.

The good news is if you were still on 60mg of paxil while coming off the wellbutrin, at 60mg your receptors that Paxil works to lock down were probably still maxed out.

 

2014 - 2019, Wellbutrin 150mg 

 

2012 (age 13) - 2019,  Paxil 60mg 

 

Where you on Paxil and Wellbutrin for 5 years straight at those dosages?

 

17 hours ago, omnispan said:

When I do get around to it someday I'll definitely push for this test, as I am now really curious what my levels are at.

 

Well, they are more likely to be more elevated when your more symptomatic, since they are related.

Waiting until your stable and the cortisol drops would then not show too much, probably.

You want to test when your destabilized if your attempting to show causation and correlation.

 

Maybe getting up an hour earlier each day would be prudent, so it's not such a jolt on your system.

Hopefully the school work will help the time pass until stabilization kicks in!

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Colonial

[omnispan]

37 minutes ago, Colonial said:

The good news is if you were still on 60mg of paxil while coming off the wellbutrin, at 60mg your receptors that Paxil works to lock down were probably still maxed out.

That is very reassuring, thank you

 

1 hour ago, Colonial said:

2014 - 2019, Wellbutrin 150mg 

 

2012 (age 13) - 2019,  Paxil 60mg 

 

Where you on Paxil and Wellbutrin for 5 years straight at those dosages?

Something like that.  In those early years it went something along the lines of a few updoses until 60mg paxil, and then the 150mg wellbutrin was tacked on.  Don't remember specific dates, but its been at those doses for many years.

 

1 hour ago, Colonial said:

Maybe getting up an hour earlier each day would be prudent, so it's not such a jolt on your system.

Hopefully the school work will help the time pass until stabilization kicks in!

I definitally should do that, I'm just scared, because doing that (along with the dose time change) triggered this mess.  My better judgement tells me that keeping the dose time the same will probably make the sleep change work out, I'm still scared regardless.

 

I certainly hope the new focus will help, I'm hoping for and worrying about stabilization every day.

 

 

Thanks Colonial, you are awesome as ever.

[Colonial]

4 minutes ago, omnispan said:

I definitally should do that, I'm just scared, because doing that (along with the dose time change) triggered this mess.  My better judgement tells me that keeping the dose time the same will probably make the sleep change work out, I'm still scared regardless.

 

You can still keep the med on the "old time" schedule, if possible, for as long as you need to walk it back if that's your eventual goal.

We had one who used to get up at 10 am and take meds who had to start getting up 6am but still took them at 10 am to start and worked it back over a month. That way they only had the time change of the sleep pattern to deal with to start and moved the meds back later. 👍

[Colonial]

On 8/29/2021 at 2:40 AM, omnispan said:

Early in July when I was on a camping trip for two weeks, I developed what I believe was a Giardia infection from drinking straight unfiltered spring water for several days straight.  I never got it professionally diagnosed even though I really should have, but I did take a script of Metronidazole (an antibiotic) that definitely aided my recovery.  This infection absolutely wrecked my digestive system, where for weeks I had to take a dose of Pepto Bismol with every meal just so it wouldn't come out as liquid on the other end six hours later.

 

It may have been from the water but just be aware WD can cause  infections as well by messing with.. everything.

Our Nemesis Wellbutrin induced a E Coli infection in my BLADDER about the time it messed up my cycles and then I got another after another large drop.

 

Too large drops of Paxil put me in waves that if extended ended up in ear infections time and again.

So that's why it's super important never to just cut mega dosage's in half or basically cold turkey over 60 days.

 

These drugs are just so powerful in so many ways affecting our brains and body process that no one gives them credit for.

It's not until you deal with the same seemingly non related thing multiple times after the same amount of time after a big drop you make the connection.

 

 

 

[omnispan]

Life Update!

 

Its nearing about a month now since my crash, and on average I would say I'm about 75% back to WDnormal, and progress is continuing.   Severity of symptoms (mostly strong anxiety) still vary day to day, but the difference between the ups and downs is continuing to diminish.

 

My body is still overly sensitive to things, though that sensitivity might be going down too, I have not catalogued it.   One example I noticed was that when I would put my hair up in a snug ponytail I would develop headaches later in the day for hours.  It took me a while to figure out what was up, because I've worn my hair like that for a long time with no issues.  Now I tie it up looser and lower when I go out, and not at all when I am at home.  The hair gets in the way more now, but it seems to have helped significantly with the headaches.

 

Most days are somewhere around that 75% mark.  I have had several days where I felt significantly closer to WDnormal, which were amazing.  Unfortunately, almost all of the best days were immediately followed by a down day, and the sudden drop in quality can be very distressing and the anxiety will contribute to the down day.  Fortunately, the quality of both the up days and the down days have been increasing relative to the previous up/downs.  

An example is Thursday two days ago.  On that day I felt like 90-95%, it was fantastic!  That was the best day I have experienced since my crash.  But in clockwork fashion,  Friday felt a wave on anxiety and dread that was very disheartening and brought a lot of my worries right back to the surface.  Oddly that wave came in the afternoon, which is very uncharacteristic, as most of my waves would come in the mornings and slowly dissipate into the evening.  Today was also an off morning, it felt almost like a continuation of yesterday, where the dissipation I would normally feel in the evenings was also pushed back to today in the late morning.  Curious.

 

For my major sleep schedule change, I can tell my body is continuing to slowly acclimate well to it.  I'm getting to bed regularly around midnight, reading for a bit, then falling asleep with minimal issues around 1am. 

My waking mornings are when things fluctuate, and the way they do ends up being a pretty good forecast as to how the coming day is going to go.

My good days I'll stay asleep right up to my 9:10 gradual alarm, and I'll wake up refreshed and calm.

My regular days will start out with lightly waking about an hour or two before usual, and I'll fall back asleep and maybe lightly wake up once or twice more before my alarm.

My off days will have me waking several hours before usual and I will find trouble getting back to consistent sleep, with many awake anxious-thinking-filled periods and very light sleep periods until my alarm.

 

I've gotten into the university routine very well as of now.  My first week was very rocky, where the stress of each school day would spill over and cause the next day to be an off day.  The second week I figured out I could skip both the first lecture of the day (more sleep!), and also the last lecture, which was several hours after the previous so it had kept me on campus much longer. 

I enjoy having the school work to occupy my mental energies with, away from other unsavory thought patterns.

 

I have been working more often than before.   My employer fractured her Talus bone (ankle bone), so I've had to take over feeding the calves every evening for a while.

Even though it is a lot more tedious of a workload, I can tell from reading my body that it really appreciates me getting out of the house every evening.

 

I setup my first counseling appointment for the first time in atleast five years, oh boy am I nervous about how to explain my whole paxil situation.  It'll be nice to have someone to talk to though, I do have high hopes.

 

 

Going forward, I am going to continue to hold right here at 7mg until next spring or summer at a minimum, so I can give my system the space it needs for continued recovery, and to handle the life transition out of my final college semester.

 

I'll stay lurking around, but not too much as reading the stories here are a huge trigger for my health anxiety.

 

 

Stay strong everyone!

 

 

 

 

[Colonial]

2 hours ago, omnispan said:

.  It took me a while to figure out what was up, because I've worn my hair like that for a long time with no issues.  Now I tie it up looser and lower when I go out, and not at all when I am at home.  The hair gets in the way more now, but it seems to have helped significantly with the headaches.

 

I had that with wearing bandanas, never had a problem with the knot in the back causing pressure- tension headaches until WD.

 

The rest of your post sounds really good and typical in what to expect.

Taking the next 6 month to stabilize sounds like a great idea with all the changes in this major stepping stone in your life.

Your completely off the Wellbutrin and down to 7mgs of Paxil, it's a good time to give yourself a break for the winter!

 

Enjoy the calves!

 

[omnispan]

One week later:

 

So as it turns out, I jinxed that last post almost immediately.  I went through a wave that started the day of my post and stayed around there for just under a week.  Yesterday the fog finally started to lift.

It was very distressing.  All the usual anxiety and WD symptoms, plus a few minor more that I haven't experienced before to a noticeable degree (dizziness, sound sensitivity, and few more I don't remember)

It was the first time since the beginning week+half of my crash that I had bad symptoms that lasted more than two days, the change was very unwelcome.

 

However there is a positive note.

In comparing this wave to my initial crash wave a month ago, this wave was around a "40%" improvement I would guesstimate.  On a scale of 0% = initial wave, 100% = pre-crash WD normal

And, this wave lasted just under a week, the first wave lasted a week and half. 

 

The timing of these two waves are very curious.  Throughout my entire taper I would experience exactly one wave a month, which onset about two-three weeks after my dose drop and would last about a week before settling.

These two waves happened right along those timelines.  Even though I paused my taper end of July.

I presume my body is still used to that monthly cycle.

That or my 5-month old medication (that I loosely chopped up about four months ago in preparation for the taper I later paused) is degrading, and I actually am still dose reducing because of the degradation.  I really don't know much on that front until I get a new batch in a several weeks, and see what happens.

I'm dreading if the pattern will continue next month, which I wouldn't be surprised if it does.  Though I am curious if there will continue to be improvement in the quality of the waves if they come again.

 

Today and yesterday I'm about 60%; Still functioning in cooking, schoolwork, farmwork, all that stuff.  It cat get hard but I try to stay busy when I can, which is hard to do with the lethargy.  I really need to get out of the house more, I know it helps but it is hard to do.

 

Hopefully I'll get some good windows in the coming weeks, I'm looking forward to it!

 

 

 

 

 

[omnispan]

On 9/18/2021 at 2:56 PM, Colonial said:

Taking the next 6 month to stabilize sounds like a great idea with all the changes in this major stepping stone in your life.

Your completely off the Wellbutrin and down to 7mgs of Paxil, it's a good time to give yourself a break for the winter!

Thanks Colonial, I always appreciate your reassurances . 

I do have a question for you about dose splitting//interdose-withdrawal if you wouldn't mind answering.

 

I just saw @ChessieCat's forum post about it specifically, I would hop over there to ask if I wasn't going to be the third post in a thread about such an important topic 😬. 

Chessie I would also love your input too, as I have seen both you and Colonial talking about dose splitting before on other threads.

 

Soo, I have been rolling the idea around in my head for several weeks that I may be experiencing interdose withdrawal, especially in this crash.

I recall paxil has a half-life of ~19hrs or so.  All my doses are powerdized, no ER.

My daily pattern almost always goes: 

• Waking up is always wishy-washy, most days I'll wake an hour or two before I get out of bed, stomach discomforted, a lot of tossing around, very hard to fall back asleep and stay asleep, even though I'm still sleepy.  I get up when the sleepiness started to recede.
• AM hours are tense, filled with anxiety spikes, lethargy, hard to focus, a bunch of yucky that is hard to remember even though I experience it every day.  Appetite non-existent, I'll force down a banana and an apple each morning.
• Dose at noon.  7mg paxil + all my supplements,  washed down with a small amount of fresh fruit juice.
• Over the next five or six hours everything very slowly smoothes out.  A very gradual transition from the state of the morning, so still a lot of unpleasantness. I'll commonly have rough patches late afternoon, though I'm thinking that has a lot to do with blood sugar, as its really hard to eat in the first half of the day.  If I can stuff food down earlier things are usually better, I think.
• Evenings are far nicer.  Anxiety and edginess still spills in, but as mere echos of their former selves.  Appetite returns, lethargy improves a bit, and I can actually reflect on my present WD issues without causing major dreadful anxiety spirals.

My question is, does this seem like interdose withdrawal?  And would dose splitting be a good idea?  I don't know what would be the safest way to approach it.

 

I have been considering splitting my dose for some time now, I am just scared to do it as changing my one dose time a month ago might have triggered this crash to begin with.

I'd imagine dose splitting is different than schedule changing, especially as it would smooth out the plasma levels through the day.  I'm still scared that my brain wouldn't be used to it and have it cause more issues.

 

Thanks in advance!

[omnispan]

 

16 hours ago, omnispan said:

• Waking up is always wishy-washy, most days I'll wake an hour or two before I get out of bed, stomach discomforted, a lot of tossing around, very hard to fall back asleep and stay asleep, even though I'm still sleepy.  I get up when the sleepiness started to recede.
• AM hours are tense, filled with anxiety spikes, lethargy, hard to focus, a bunch of yucky that is hard to remember even though I experience it every day.  Appetite non-existent, I'll force down a banana and an apple each morning.
• Dose at noon.  7mg paxil + all my supplements,  washed down with a small amount of fresh fruit juice.
• Over the next five or six hours everything very slowly smoothes out.  A very gradual transition from the state of the morning, so still a lot of unpleasantness. I'll commonly have rough patches late afternoon, though I'm thinking that has a lot to do with blood sugar, as its really hard to eat in the first half of the day.  If I can stuff food down earlier things are usually better, I think.
• Evenings are far nicer.  Anxiety and edginess still spills in, but as mere echos of their former selves.  Appetite returns, lethargy improves a bit, and I can actually reflect on my present WD issues without causing major dreadful anxiety spirals.

 

An important addendum to this:

 

About 1-2 hours post dose I get a peak of symptoms that then gradually decreases into the evening. 

The regular afternoon symptoms include sleepiness (though hard to actually sleep), mild balance issues/vertigo, hard to mentally engage with things, anxiety waves, mild dp/dr waves, mild eye focusing issues, prone to crying spells (can be from joy or gloom), and some more. 

Some symptoms are carryovers from the morning (anxiety/tenseness is one), so if I have good mornings the carryover isn't that bad.

A bunch of these I never really experience in the morning.

 

All the more reason why I'm considering smoothing my dose out over the day.  I just need reassurance before I attempt

[Colonial]

I agree to the split dosing for multiple red flags your discussing I had with Paxil as well.

Hang tight, I'll get back to you soon.

 

Until then, think about how you can move half the dose backwards or forwards either:

1: half an hour a day every  day

2. 1 hour a day for 2 days, etc..

 

Something along that line.

Eventually you want to get as close to 12 hours apart as possible but since it's a 19 hour med and not 12, you don't need to be completely separated asap.

Get back to you soon.

 

If you want to start asap, you can start moving half your dose 1 hour in one direction and hold tight

[omnispan]

My plan would probably be to move the split half an hour forward each day.  I am going to start the process tomorrow.

 

I bet now is the perfect time to do it, since the fog has mostly lifted since that wave started closing several days ago.  If the monthly pattern continues to manifest, I have a good several weeks to get this split done.

I am extremely curious to see how a split will affect things.  I have high hopes.

 

How well did the split work out for you Colonial?  Was there anything in particular you'd recommend to keep an eye out for during the transition?

[ChessieCat]

3 hours ago, omnispan said:

Was there anything in particular you'd recommend to keep an eye out for during the transition?

 

I've just published a topic about Dose Splitting.

 

dose-splitting-for-interdose-withdrawal-from-short-half-life-drugs

 

I suggest you ask questions specific to your own situation here in your Introduction topic.  That way your history stays in one place.  The discussion topics are for more general questions etc.

 

[Colonial]

Ok, mornings are always bad with the cortisol but if your dosing once a day at noon, the interdose wd could be making it worse since it's out of your system by 7am ish. Also, the fact that you get a bit worse after taking it shows just how sensitive the system is and it would be best to smooth it out.

 

This is where inter dose wd, in by opinion, can MIMIC an adverse reaction when it's just dumping too much in at once after not having anything for hours and your symptomatic from that in the weakened state.

 

It is normal to feel worse in the afternoons for everyone so you don't want to have a lull in your dose at that time. 

You may want to consider the night dose around 3 hours before bedtime, so you've smoothed out and and lull isn't keeping you up.

Than count back about 12 hours to the morning dose.

 

You may want to consider walking back the morning half first since that is closer to the correct time AND your having the interdose at that time.  If it means getting out of bed earlier than the 2 hours your used to laying there, do it, you'll thank yourself sooner than later.

Maybe have the dose on a night stand if you don't want to actually get up.

 

 

Also, I would caution against taking the Paxil at the same time all of these  supplements.

There could be an absorption issue, until your stable I'd try to take  it an hour before anything else.

Maybe delay the supplements until your sure the morning dose is absorbed.

If your moving the later dose forward, maybe you can take the supplements at night for right now until you get that dose closer to it's correct time and the bring the supplements back to the afternoon time later.

 

The spilt worked well for me because i had been on the smooth controlled release and then the instant made me really sick from too much all at once and then nothing later. Within 4 days of splitting it all at once on one day I was getting better, but that was all within a very short time in the change over so doing it all at once worked out  for me.

 

If you do half an hour a day for 10 days, you'll cover the 5 hour window, and then you can take a few days hanging out at that schedule to let your brain catch up with the changes and then move another half hour every other day till the end.  But if you feel worse before that hold up for a bit.

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Colonial

[omnispan]

Moved half the dose ahead by 45 min today (meant to 30 min but lost the time).

 

Felt some weirdness in the hour or so that followed, then into my "usual" afternoon state.   I don't know what stuff I can assign to the dose split, and what I can assign to my usual symptom instability.

 

I'm going to go for an hour tomorrow, and hold there for a handful of days to observe.

[Colonial]

4 minutes ago, omnispan said:

Felt some weirdness in the hour or so that followed, then into my "usual" afternoon state.   I don't know what stuff I can assign to the dose split, and what I can assign to my usual symptom instability.

 

Some upset is to be expected.

Even though your system is complaining, your asking it to make changes anyway.

 

And as long as it's mild and transient enough in duration that you CAN'T tell for sure either way, your good.

It's when your symptomatic beyond a doubt that you know you've gone too fast that we want to avoid.

[omnispan]

So first, thank you as always Colonial.  Your information post actually answered several questions I had but never even asked.

 

Today I took my half-doses at 12 and 1.   The only symptom I can confidently pin down as being "new" is a round of tinnitus, that I never really got in the afternoon before.  I don't remember how long it lasted yesterday, but it wasn't that long.  Today, it actually just came on like 10 minutes ago (around 2pm), I can tell its slowly decreasing.  (EDIT:  2:30 it is still around, but less than before and I can ignore it by focusing on other things)  (EDIT:  3pm its only easily noticeable if I focus on it)

 

On 9/28/2021 at 2:40 PM, Colonial said:

This is where inter dose wd, in by opinion, can MIMIC an adverse reaction when it's just dumping too much in at once after not having anything for hours and your symptomatic from that in the weakened state.

This has been my suspicion for a good while now.

Some time several weeks ago was when I changed from constructing my dose from chopped medication pieces, to powderized piles.

Sometime after then was when I started developing a "hump" of afternoon symptoms.  Before that, afternoons were mostly a gradual transition down from the morning woes.

 

On 9/28/2021 at 2:40 PM, Colonial said:

Also, I would caution against taking the Paxil at the same time all of these  supplements.

There could be an absorption issue, until your stable I'd try to take  it an hour before anything else.

This thought crossed my mind at some point,  I'm going to try that out.

 

Taking all that into account, my plan at the moment:

 

• Tomorrow I'm going to push taking my supplements back to 2, holding my doses at 12 and 1
• This weekend, I'm going to push my morning dose back, probably twenty minutes a day.  I want to push my morning dose slowly, cause pushing it fast last month may have triggered my mess.
• Do that until morning dose is at 10
• Might move the supplements back to noon
• Then, I'll start pushing the evening dose