neurogenesis: Tapering 50 mg quetiapine very slowly

[neurogenesis]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

Yes, calculating a set percentage reduction of mgai is the same as calculating the same set percentage of mgpw.

 

Example:  Using some numbers plucked out of the air for demonstrative purpose.  If the pill physically weighs 1 mgpw and contains a dose of 100 mgai then the:

 

mgai is 100mg then deducting 10% would be 90 mgai

 

mgpw is 1mg then deducting 10% would be 0.9 mgpw

So how will i know how many mg im curently taking when making cuts ?

Beacouse the scale represents only the weight of the pill

[ChessieCat]

using-a-scale-to-weigh-and-measure-doses

 

You need to weigh 10 tablets and then calculate the mgpw and mgai.

 

Check out these posts:

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/search/?q=mgpw

[ChessieCat]

On 4/10/2022 at 12:47 AM, neurogenesis said:

Is it okay to cut the quetiapine pills?

 

Please see this post:

 

 

[neurogenesis]

I cannot start tapering yet due to my digital scale showing incorect results on weigh(i received  the scale with a weight of 50.000 grams and when i put it on the scale it s showing 50.018

The last 18 miligrams are changing is not always 18 mg...if the scale was corect it would always show 50.000 

 

[ChessieCat]

Q:  Have you tried leaving a weight on it, taring it and then measuring.

 

You also need to make sure that there is no draft, including from your breathing.  I think some members wear a mask when using their scale.

 

I suggest you post your issue in this topic and other members might have suggestions:

 

using-a-scale-to-weigh-and-measure-doses

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by ChessieCat

[neurogenesis]

Is it possible to reduce the chance of getting psychosis supersensitivity to zero with the slow taper?i want to overcome it completely..

 

[Shep]

A slow taper minimizes withdrawal symptoms, including dopamine supersensitivity.

 

Instead of continuing to hyper-focus on this symptom, you may want to channel your energy here:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

You may also benefit from reading about health anxiety:

 

Health anxiety, hypochondria and obsession with symptoms

[Shep]

@neurogenesisThis is a post I made around the time I was dealing with dopamine sensitivity issues:

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/17554-sheps-journey/page/32/#comment-323038

 

It contains this video:

 

Compassion for Voices: a tale of courage and hope video (5 minutes)

 

It has some great non-drug coping skills to develop. You can practice these skills now, setting yourself up for success in case you get a bit wobbly during your taper. Since your taper is slow, you likely won't have to deal with this intensely, but since you're concerned, you may feel empowered by going ahead and learning about deep breathing and compassionate self talk. Those skills will help you with a lot of withdrawal symptoms and with life in general.

[neurogenesis]

Thank you @Shep

[neurogenesis]

I just wanted to leave this picture here as a reminder

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by neurogenesis

[neurogenesis]

Can anyone tell me if it s possible to contact the research doctor  Mark horowitz ??

[ChessieCat]

Have you tried doing a search on the internet?

[Nelly]

9 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Can anyone in the Midlands help @neurogenesis calibrate her scale? Maybe over Zoom?

@neurogenesis

@Altostrata

 

I can help if you want to send me n email and we can arrange x

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by ChessieCat
extracted post from quote

[neurogenesis]

18 hours ago, Nelly said:

@neurogenesis

@Altostrata

 

I can help if you want to send me n email and we can arrange x

 

 

I think my scale is innacurate

Edited May 3, 2022 by ChessieCat
removed email address

[neurogenesis]

6 hours ago, Nelly said:

@neurogenesis

@Altostrata

 

 

I will have to buy another scale ,a gemini 20

[Nelly]

1 hour ago, neurogenesis said:

I will have to buy another scale ,a gemini 20

I have sent you an email x

[neurogenesis]

My gmail didn t received it i have another one 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by ChessieCat
removed email address

[Nelly]

I have sent it to your SA email account 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by ChessieCat
removed quote containing email address

[ChessieCat]

@neurogenesis @Nelly

 

I have removed the email addresses from the posts; internet bots collect emails and they you get spam.

 

I suggest that if you wish to provide another member with your contact information that you do this via the PM (private messaging).

[neurogenesis]

I did..

.up to now i only gathered his twitter account from witch he s not replying

And an SA member gave me hi s gmail account witch im unable to send him message

[neurogenesis]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3446226/

This article explains that chronic treatment with aripiprazole is reversing the developed dopamine supersensitivity at receptor level caused by other antipsychotic.

(However there are more neurotransmiter receptor at play serotonine cholinergic etc)

 

Now i am wondering if it would help me even more to switch from quetiapine to aripiprazole in order to taper slow(the taper will take years and  would still account as chronic treatment with aripiprazole)

Im am obsessing with neurotransmitter supersensitivity couse it s my life at stake,and i wanna do whatever it takes to get off medication safely

 

[neurogenesis]

I quote from the article:

"HAL induces dopamine supersensitivity, which is retained for an extended period of time, and is exacerbated by additional HAL treatment. In contrast, chronic treatment with ARI does not induce dopamine supersensitivity, and it reduces the supersensitivity induced by the preceding chronic treatment with HAL."

[hayduke]

21 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

Now i am wondering if it would help me even more to switch from quetiapine to aripiprazole in order to taper slow(the taper will take years and  would still account as chronic treatment with aripiprazole)

 

I doubt it.  Quetiapine is more sedating, and aripiprazole I found very activating and nearly wound up in deep trouble when my original prescriber cut me over.  I ended up back on olanzapine after years on risperidone.

 

There aren't many cases where cutting over to another drug to taper from instead is really worth it.  I think this would be a poor choice for you from my experience.

 

21 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

Im am obsessing with neurotransmitter supersensitivity couse it s my life at stake,and i wanna do whatever it takes to get off medication safely

 

Quetiapine isn't the trickiest of these drugs to come off.  It will take time and patience though, as just about everyone on the forums here would attest.

If I was in your shoes I would be looking for everything I could do to ensure stability, self care, therapy, whatever, and taper as slowly as you need to to maintain that.  Learning when you will want or need to hold is really key.

Ultimately you can read this or that till you're blue in the face, but you don't want to be making this the major focus in your life, just something to get on with in the background.  

In practical terms it's going to come down to working out how gentle and slow your cuts need to be, and looking after yourself in the process.  Listen to what your body is telling you.

[neurogenesis]

 

I finnaly ordered a gemini 20 scale 

 

[Altostrata]

@neurogenesis please confer privately with @Nelly about using your scale.

[neurogenesis]

Thank you,will do.

The scale is ordered but haven t received it yet,i will let you all know when the scale arrives

[neurogenesis]

My gemini 20 scale has arrived ,i have learn from youtube how to calibrate it.

[neurogenesis]

When i abruptly stoped the quetiapine my psychosis supersensitivity was so strong that i couldn t diferentiate betwen voices and my real thoughts

 

I also wanna tell you that when im smoking cannabis im much more generaly AWARE (reading bodylanguage much better for example)

 

The reason im telling you that cannabis makes me more aware is that im wondering if smoking cannabis would make me aware and allow me to diferentiate betwen voices (induced by psychosis supersensivity)  and my real thoughts

What makes the voices from psychosis supersensitivity dangerous is not being able to diferentiate betwen the 2  (voices and your real thoughts )causing to believe  the voices and become delusional 

If cannabis would give  this higher perspective in this area then the voices will not be a problem couse i would see the diference betwen them and my real thoughts and not become delusional(or act on the voices)

So with that said if i would have voices and be tottaly aware of it  and be able to tottaly control myself it wouldn t be a problem. 

Im really wondering if cannabis will help in in case im experiencing voices from psychosis supersensitivity

The reason im talking about this is beacouse smoking cannabis makes me more AWARE

If it would help imagine how amazing it would be to be able to completely be aware of them as being voices, detach yourself from the psychological effects of supersensitivity psychosis

 

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by neurogenesis

[neurogenesis]

Hello i don t know if im able to do the brass monkey slide microtaper

When  cutting the pill and putting the small parts on the scale it dosen t measure them it s showing 0.000 g

However it can stil measure the cuted pill

@Altostrata @Nelly

Edited May 8, 2022 by neurogenesis

[neurogenesis]

Hello i don t know if im able to do the brass monkey slide microtaper

When  cutting the pill and putting the small parts on the scale it dosen t measure them it s showing 0.000 g

However it can stil measure the cuted pill

[Shep]

21 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

When i abruptly stoped the quetiapine my psychosis supersensitivity was so strong that i couldn t diferentiate betwen voices and my real thoughts

 

I also wanna tell you that when im smoking cannabis im much more generaly AWARE (reading bodylanguage much better for example)

 

Neurogenesis, why did you end up getting injected with zuclopenthixol back in April 2020? Was it related to cannabis or other recreational drug use? I'm concerned you may be heading down the wrong path here.

 

I would hesitate using cannabis. While some members report it helps with pain, anxiety, and sleep, others report it causes problems. I haven't come across anyone who found that it helped them differentiate their voices from their own thoughts. Here is the information we have on members' experiences:

 

Cannabis, marijuana, hashish, THC, & CBD (cannabidiol) or Hemp oil

 

You have "nicotine(vaping)" in your signature. I would especially avoid vaping cannabis.

 

Cost of cannabis: Vaping THC dramatically increases risk of psychosis

 

Also, keep in mind that your brain / body may hyper-react to cannabis due to your nervous system being traumatized due to withdrawal, so be very careful what you put into your body.

 

The best way to avoid dopamine supersensitivity is with a very slow taper.

 

On 5/4/2022 at 7:07 AM, hayduke said:

If I was in your shoes I would be looking for everything I could do to ensure stability, self care, therapy, whatever, and taper as slowly as you need to to maintain that.  Learning when you will want or need to hold is really key.

 

This is great advice from Hayduke.

[neurogenesis]

I smoked an unknown drug (wasn t cannabis) and it induced a mild form of psychosis .

When i got to hospital  i got  forcefully injected with zuclo and they put me on quetiapine

The reason i kept taking quetiapine was beacouse my mood was destabilized by the long acting  injection.

 

 

[neurogenesis]

After i abruptly quited quetiapine i was on 150 mg sertraline and suplementing with st john worth

Don t know if they enhanced the supersensitivity (as the quetiapine also may upregulate/supersensitize serotonine receptors

 

 

[neurogenesis]

I have started my taper today

Im hoping to be able to do brassmonkey microtaper using the gemini 20 scale

I removed 3 mg out of 266 mg pill's weight

(The removal of those 3 mg only scratched the pill a bit)

The method is not cutting with a knife but scratching the pill against that kind of thing people use it for scratching fingernails

 

[ChessieCat]

2 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

that kind of thing people use it for scratching fingernails

 

It's called a nail file (usually metal) or emery board (sand glued on cardboard like sandpaper).

 

Have you seen this topic:

 

did-i-go-wrong-with-my-nailfile-shaving-or-filing-a-tablet

 

Results for "nail file":

 

Intro forum:  https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/search/?q="nail file"

 

Tapering forum (includes posts in the above topic):  https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/search/?q="nail file"

 

 

 

[JanCarol]

Hey Neurogenesis - 

 

On 5/8/2022 at 7:34 AM, neurogenesis said:

I also wanna tell you that when im smoking cannabis im much more generaly AWARE (reading bodylanguage much better for example)

 

The reason im telling you that cannabis makes me more aware is that im wondering if smoking cannabis would make me aware and allow me to diferentiate betwen voices (induced by psychosis supersensivity)  and my real thoughts

 

There are so many factors with cannabis.

 

How young you are.  Male vs. Female.  If you are male, under 30, or have been drugged from adolescence, cannabis use is a slippery slope.    Males under the age of 25 have reported higher incidences of psychotic breaks when using cannabis.

See - it's still a street drug, and the problem with it is - think about how carefully you are measuring your quetiapine.  Now, imagine that today you get a batch of cannabis that contains 5% THC, and then next week you get one which has 20% THC.  You think you are using the same amount, but the second dose wipes you out of your brain and knocks you out of the ballpark.    The variability of street products makes it especially risky for those of us who have suffered withdrawal or damage from psych drugs.

If you read the cannabis thread that Shep posted above, you will see a few people (mostly men) who posted, "one joint, and I was ruined." 

It may be possible that a CBD product, which is not psychoactive, may produce the desirable, relaxing, grounding effects without fiddling your neurotransmitters.  Your mileage may vary, as some SA people have suffered side effects from the seemingly innocuous CBD.

 

Also, I am concerned about this:
 

10 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

After i abruptly quited quetiapine i was on 150 mg sertraline and suplementing with st john worth

Don t know if they enhanced the supersensitivity (as the quetiapine also may upregulate/supersensitize serotonine receptors

 WHAT?  Please put this in your signature, along with dates:  how long you were on the sertraline, and how you got off of it.  Cold turkey?  These drugs are an important factor in your symptoms and healing.

 

St. John's Wort directly conflicts with sertraline, and could have thrown you into Serotonin Syndrome, which can easily have psychotic features.

THIS may be what caused your supersensitivity, as much as the withdrawal from quetiapine.

I respect your desire to look way down the road and express concerns about when to drop off, how low to go, etc.

But I would encourage you to think only about the next taper.  Breathe, appreciate the moment you have, now.  Focus on doing your tapers well.  Then, in a year's time (it will take awhile to get from 200 down to 50!) look at your symptoms, your improvement, and re-evaluate the plan.  Don't worry about that last 50 mg, until you get there.

 

Better to spend your energy on breathing, meditation, walking in the sun, gentle activities that help improve and expand your capacity to tolerate extreme states.

It's not about getting rid of the extreme states (I'm still unclear, you use the diagnosis word "neurotransmitter supersensitivity" a lot - but I hear very little about what you are feeling, what you are experiencing.) but instead it's about expanding your capacity to receive and accept what you are experiencing.

Myoclonic jerks as you fall asleep can be very normal, simply stress related (or magnesium deficiency).  This happens to humans who never go on psych drugs.  It's a human thing.  It may be amplified for those of us who have been on them and gone through withdrawal, but it is nothing alarming.  Just say something to yourself, like, "Oh, my system fired," and let go.  

 

I went through this during menopause - that thing called "hot flushes."  I learned that a hot flush would come after the kind of stressful moment (like near misses in traffic) that fired my adrenaline.  Instead of focusing on the adrenaline and freaking out that my heart was pounding, my face was burning, I was sweating all over - I would say, "OH!  My adrenaline fired again, wasn't that thrilling?"  and just let it go.  Move on.

It's the worrying about the worrying (secondary worrying) which will ramp  up symptoms.  In meditation we learn to say, "Oh, I'm worrying again." and let it go.  It's a skill, and one which is vital to develop in withdrawal.  "Oh, I'm ruminating about the past again," and let it go.  "Thinking, thinking, thinking," and let it go.  "Worrying, worrying, worrying" and let it go.  "Planning, planning, planning," and let it go.  Name it, and let it go.

A breathing practice can develop the skills of mind/body connection much like the cannabis does.  Cannabis does influence neurotransmitters, but a different set than the quetiapine.  Learn skills to deal with your symptoms, rather than reaching for yet another drug (like aripiprazole, as well).

(ASIDE:  changing which receptors your neuroleptic hits - the difference between quetiapine / aripiprazole - can cause destabilisation, too.  It's better to deal with the devil you know, than dance with the devil you don't!)

 

Then, there's this:

10 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

I smoked an unknown drug (wasn t cannabis) and it induced a mild form of psychosis .

OK, so it was a psychoactive substance which started this journey off.  This sounds like what they call "Spice" here in Australia.  Some of them are quite wicked, and can really mess you up.  What Spice is, is some kind of harmless herbs that have been soaked in some other substance which gives the herbs their "kick" or "high" or whatever.  Each kind can be completely different, and all of them are pretty random.  Most of them are made to be intense - it's how they sell it.

Respect yourself, and be clean and kind with your brain (this goes for alcohol, too - while it might relax you in the short term, it can cause rebound anxiety and drop you into waves in the long term).  

Use simples like sunlight.  Nutrition (are you getting enough good fats for your brain to operate well?)  Gentle exercise.   Look here:  Alternatives for Psychotic Outbreaks for suggestions on how to deal with extreme states.

Hint:  I don't call it "psychosis," which is altogether too close to a diag-nonsense word to me, instead of using these kinds of words, it's much better to describe what you are experiencing.  These are spiritual emergencies, or extreme states - and in fact, they may be calling you to explore them more thoroughly that you can heal.  Like I said above, it's not about shutting them down, but about expanding your capacity to accept them, and then they become "not a big deal" anymore - and they might teach you something.

Examples of describing these states:  The voices are intrusive, or every time I see a car, my heart leaps, or the buildings seemed to tilt and melt, or my vision narrowed down to a pinpoint and it frightened me.  All of my nerves fired at once.  My heart is pumping irregularly and too fast, and I have trouble slowing and calming it down.  Putting diagnonsense labels on these experiences stops you from learning from them.  Instead, think of yourself as a scriptwriter or author, and paint a picture - describe what is happening (keeping a journal is great for learning from your symptoms), and explore it.  Then you will be less frightened by it.

I've rambled way too long, I hope I said something which helped.  

And I hope you see the Sun today!

 

JC

Edited May 9, 2022 by JanCarol
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