cmusic: A long history and finally saying enough

[cmusic]

Hello again,

 

Just wanted to post because I really need some support.  I have stopped changing any meds for a month and plan to just leave the 5mg Prozac alone.  I have learned my lesson the hard way.

 

But, there are things happening to me physically and emotionally that are unimaginable.  Every day my body feels scorching hot when I wake up.  No fever.  Hands and feet feel swollen and super sensitive.  Pain and soreness all over my body.  Burning sensations.  Numbness.  It goes on and on.  Is it possible for someone to actually trigger Chronic Fatigue Syndrome from this?

 

The neuro emotions are out of control.  I no longer have the option of taking a benzo or anything else for them.  I just suffer.  I crave people's attention and sympathy because I have no other outlet.  I am trying to take steps forward in my life, moderate 'exposures' and continuing to try and get back to work and be a father to my kids in some capacity.

 

But this is brutal and I find myself crying hysterically to the point where I feel 'shell shocked'.  I can literally feel the energy like a bomb went off in my head.  Waves.  It takes days to come out of it sometimes.

 

I constantly wonder if I do have some kind of neurological or autoimmune disease now as a result of or in conjunction with this.  I don't know if others have experienced the physical side of this but it makes the emotional stuff even harder because you can't ever forget about it.  I did read the book on CFS and it does seem like that ANS disregulation cycle is happening, but his answer is to simply worry less about the condition and reduce stress.  I can't simply worry less.  The worry is the condition.  I've been a worrier my whole life.  How does someone break this cycle when they have the added challenge that their brain simply can't calm itself down?

 

All this is making me very sick.  I've tried to take some time away from reading, but it makes me ruminate more.  I tried to read to find hope and I don't really.  It's been so long and I feel worse than I ever have.  I know I need to try and keep going and have hope that I will get better but I don't know if I believe that.  I'm in my 30's with two beautiful little kids and the thought of not being able to take care of them is the worst one of all.

 

Anyway thanks for listening.  Not sure there's much more I can do except try to get through every moment.

[alex]

.  Not sure there's much more I can do except try to get through every moment.

 

This is absolutely right C; there isn't much you can do but ACCEPT and WAIT for the process to unfold.

It gets better; I can tell you that.It is an extreme experience, but I trust I will be a wiser, stronger, and better person when I get through this ordeal.

After 1 year of struggling with severe anxiety,depression,suicidal ideation,anhedonia,insomnia, all these symptoms are abating substantialy.

It used to be "terrifying", now is "difficult"

 

Hang in there.

[Meimeiquest]

Hi cmusic,

 

I've been away waging my own battles with cortisol. Turned out my brain has decided it wasn't getting enough benzo. I am really not a fan of multi-drug tapers.

 

I'm really impressed you read a whole book, given your symptoms. I have been thinking about this a lot. I suspect that the HPA axis could be messed over by other things besides an over active amygdala, but you would still follow the same path to fix the overproduction of cortisol. Also, even though he gives examples of many spontaneous recoveries, he talks several times about the need for counseling to get at the root cause. And my word, withdrawal seems more than enough to trigger the amygdala, just by itself. Apart from not knowing if I would live, I would have preferred chemotherapy over withdrawal for the past year.

 

I just cannot accept the idea that there is no solution for withdrawal besides time. Because it sucks too bad.

[cmusic]

It is impossible for me to reconcile in my mind that these symptoms will be a lifelong battle. Every day I wake up in a state of panic and terror and dread. It is physical and raw and hysterical. Intrybto go to work despite this but I obsess endlessly about what I need to do to get better. The obsessing is the issue but I can't control it. My hands feel like swollen balloons and my whole body burns. Every time I feel it I'm reminded. I literally can't think of anything else.

 

How - when the premise is to stop the stress cycles - does a person in my position break out of this?

[Meimeiquest]

What are you doing with benzos right now.

[cmusic]

I haven't taken one in a few months. Prior to that I was using them once a week or once every other week. I hadn't been on them daily for two years but was still using them for relief intermittently. But now I'm trying to live without them. Just the small dose of Prozac that isn't helping.

[Meimeiquest]

Good for you! I wish I could say the same. I know you have been fighting hard. Did you relate to the physical symptoms in the book? It says that specialized counseling is often needed, and I know that several people on this forum have done that. Otherwise, I think the suggestions are generally helpful....Alto may have ghost-written part of it . There was a topic lately that you might find helpful...Nadia - There Is Hope. And although I long for a day when time is not the great healer, at least it is that now. Hang in there! I admire your courage.

[catw66]

I am so sorry you are going through this and you are a real trooper. I had a few days of this and decided I was going to fast on my taper.

 

I think I can relate to that terror when depression is so bad. For me, even on the meds, it sometimes crescendos into a severe "depression headache" that I don't think I can stand another minute of. This has gotten a little better since I stopped adderall but when I tried to stop Cymbalta, I had a really bad or two with it and the terror and added anxiety was a bit much. I too broke down into tears a few times in the last few days already. Honestly though, it feels good to just cry it out. Crying releases endorphins and I figure that's a small help, if only for a bit. 

 

I have been obsessing for the last year in particular about how I am going to get better and how to get to the bottom of it. I made it my single life mission and it led me to moving to Michigan in with my mother for a while, where I found out I had a heart defect while they were looking for potential heart damage from my Adderall useage and long-term psych med usage. Nothing was found and the defects are congenital and won't be fixed unless I have a stroke some day - thanks to U.S. insurance.

 

I came here to get ECT as my depression has become that bad since taking Adderall and Cymbalta, only to find out that my drug may be the real problem and that I need to come off of it to see how I feel or if I am going to get ECT.

 

But I made it my mission that I am going to do everything in my power to heal my broken brain and life no matter how long it takes.

 

I was having a bad day after severe wtihdrawal symptoms while hiking in nature tonight and thought of a few dialectical behavioral therapy skills I might use to deal with the panic I've felt for the last year or so especially in response to severe depression. I bought a workbook called Depressed & Anxious that is based on DBT skills. I have gone through DBT before but was never too terribly impressed by it, but it is a way to deal with conflicting emotions and impulses.

 

While I was walking, I told myself that this will eventually lift again and things will get a little better again, which helped me feel relief and remember that things always change to greater and lesser degrees. I figured I was "improving the moment" by being out in nature and though I was still suffering, I feel I did make it a little better. Then was "radical acceptance" of the whole thing, which helped me not increase my suffering by being in resistance. These things were not a huge help but they helped a little and if practiced regularly, they may start to help more.

 

So I am hoping you can find some ways to keep cheerleading yourself through all this and to self-soothe at times - hot bath, watch a good movie, go lie on the ground in a park somewhere (that was soothing tonight.)

 

I'm thinking when I really start doing this too, I am going to be getting regular acupuncture or massage. I know that acupuncture can help with withdrawal symptoms for other substances too.

 

Hang in there. I read a story of someone who went through hell and it started to get better. I keep telling myself of all my struggles, "Don't quit before the miracle."

[Rhiannon]

cmusic, I know this is no help whatsoever right now, but unfortunately everything you are describing is typical of bad withdrawal symptoms.  It doesn't hurt to get a thorough medical checkup if you're concerned something else might be wrong, but people experience everything you're going through even when there's nothing else medically wrong.

 

That doesn't mean this is going to be a lifelong battle. That feeling of "this is never going to get better" is actually also typical of withdrawal. It does get better, just never as fast as we would like for it to.

 

I'm with CW5600: the only thing to really do at this point is hold, don't change anything else, and support yourself with the suggestions in Symptoms and Self-Care regarding lifestyle type suggestions, mindfulness, etc.  Catw's suggestions along these lines are also helpful, as impossible as they may feel right now.  And Gia K's blog Beyond Meds also has a ton of stuff about coping and helping yourself during times like this. 

 

The only exception to this might be if the Prozac is actually activating for you. The only way to test that is to make a small cut and see if things improve. My guess is that your system is in such chaos that a change in the Prozac won't help.

 

I'm so sorry for your suffering. Hang in there. Things should settle down eventually, but it can take many months, even a year sometimes.  Don't let the length of the hold discourage you. It's healing time.

 

PS: When you get the chance could you update your sig line to show when you reinstated the Prozac, when you quit the benzos, and any other changes you've made since the last update? thanks!

[cmusic]

Thanks Rhi.  I updated my signature.

 

To be honest I have been torturing myself over these symptoms and the link people have proposed here to Fibro / CFS and other topics.  I have some questions that I think would help if there is any insight on them.

 

• I have severe allodynia and hypersensitivity to all kinds of pain.  I read about what causes this and it seems to be CNS (brain) hypersensitivity.  I then read about this being a symptom of Fibromyalgia.  Does this mean I (we) actually have Fibro from the stress of the withdrawal or is this just a similar set of symptoms?

 

• I also read Alto's post about the connection to glutamate hypersensitivity.  And I read that this sensitivity is also present in Fibro sufferers.  I ask if this reverses itself over time, because people with that condition seem to deal with it indefinitely.

The core fear I have is that the stress may have induced a true chronic condition - vs. something that will resolve over time.  I keep trying to tell myself to just let it be and not project the future, but my symptoms are so bad it breaks me down and I start to lose my ability to stay mindful and observe my thoughts neutrally.

 

I would welcome any reassurance that the physical symptoms I'm having, even if due to CNS / glutamate hypersensitivity, will resolve over time.  I'm experiencing the following in terms of physical symptoms:

 

Severe burning in palms of hands, and sometimes neck and back

Allodynia - any rubbing against anything - even the thought of it - is like nails on the chalkboard

Extreme muscle fatigue - working out for more than 10 minutes triggers burning and after that muscles are sore and weak

Muscle twitching and spasms all over body

Numbness in outsides of hands and last three fingers on both arms, and sometimes feet

Free floating pain in various parts of body

Sleep that is not restful - feeling like I'm exhausted but also too stimulated to rest

 

Again, I'm just looking for hope.  I understand you say it gets better but I haven't found many people with these physical symptoms (I don't think) and I'm constantly worried that there is now a chronic condition (even if it was kicked off by the stress of the withdrawal).  I would love some reassurance along these lines.

 

I'm seeing a neurologist for an EMG but my guess is that he won't find anything serious.  I'm not sure if I should ask him about Fibro but I might.

 

I also cut the Prozac from 5 to 4 - now holding for probably a few months - to see if that makes a difference.  My guess is you're right and it won't.  But with Prozac the half life is so long you can't tell right away, that's why it's such a tough drug to get off.  I may consider another cut in a few months if I'm no worse than now.  Don't know.

 

Anyway if you have thoughts on these symptoms and whether they can become 'real' chronic conditions that would be appreciated.  For all the good stuff that's on these forums, it is also pretty scary and confusing sometimes (especially when your mind is warped by neuro-fear).

 

Many thanks.

[Meimeiquest]

Oh cmusic, I meant to encourage you, not discourage you! The man who wrote that book is not at all chronically ill, he says he was ill for six years, then, through coming to understand his condition and his needs, he got well. The names of diseases are often just used as shorthand to describe a cluster of symptoms or, hopefully, a common cause. It is my very uneducated opinion that an overstimulation of cortisol, leading to ANS dysruption, is the root cause of fibromyalgia and withdrawal. Probably there are other issues in withdrawal as well. I've had a funky taste in my mouth since I went below the therapeutic level of Wellbutrin, which points to a detoxing process, plus the recovery of neurotransmitters takes time. That author wrote the book because he wants people to understand that fibromyalgia does not need to be a chronic disease. And certainly withdrawal does not need to be a chronic disease.

 

I think glutamate settles down as the cortisol settles. But that is why low- dose lamitrigine helps some people, it reduces glutamate.

 

Working out is for well people. Gentle walks are for people in withdrawal.

 

Nobody knows the complete factual story of their lives, but we all believe some narrative. I've had many. Today I believe I was born with a somewhat lowered natural resilience, but as I learn about that and how to treat it, and get off these drugs, I'm going to be just fine and I'm going to complete my life purposes. I would really encourage you to do whatever it takes for you to find a positive narrative.

[cmusic]

Thanks. It's not you that caused the fear - I've known about the correlation for a while. But recently the symptoms I have are becoming so intense that I'm losing my ability to stay neutral. I have a horrible underlying sense of fear and dread that never goes away - and becomes terror at the slightest thought or stimuli. I guess this is 'normal' for withdrawal.

 

The thing is, I want to be hopeful. But I've always been a critical analytical thinker and now with this it's like those obsessive thought patterns are one more thing that's magnified out of control. I practice mindfulness every day in routine and formally. I just get through a few hours and then get exhausted and break down into hopelessness. And the physical symptoms are a constant reminder that something is wrong.

 

There are so many theories on what causes chronic disorders like Fibro - there is no telling what's true. There is even a blood test now but who knows whether its reliable or just fabricated data by the company that patented it. You can look for FM/a if you are interested.

 

Bottom line is that regardless of the label it's a place medical science knows very little about. It's painful and disabling. Someone asked me if I fear death and I thought about it and I actually think I fear living with this suffering more. But I live for my family and the hope that there will be a better day someday.

 

Reassurance is what we all want. Like you said it's a positive frame I need to be in. But that, for me, means I need to believe I can get better. Which is tough right now - even though I want to. I want to believe that we don't really have these chronic conditions and even though we have some of the same symptoms that this is only temporary for us. I just can't help sometimes falling into the negative trap.

[cmusic]

The only exception to this might be if the Prozac is actually activating for you. The only way to test that is to make a small cut and see if things improve. My guess is that your system is in such chaos that a change in the Prozac won't help.

 

I'm so sorry for your suffering. Hang in there. Things should settle down eventually, but it can take many months, even a year sometimes.  Don't let the length of the hold discourage you. It's healing time.

 

Can I ask a question?  I would love to be in the position where I was going down slowly and responsibly - preventing the effects of cold turkey withdrawal.  But, I've already caused the damage and am clearly suffering from it.  If I'm going to get better, doesn't it mean I need to get the Prozac out of my system once and for all?  Could leaving it in place be delaying things and causing suffering?  I'm not comfortable when I hold, I suffer intensely every day.  And when I make a reduction I suffer more but I don't know what's what anymore.

 

I can't help but think I should get off this stuff quicker and that I've caused damage by reinstating.  And I don't know whether the Prozac continues to torture my nerves.  But then I think - if I get off quickly again I'll trigger another shockwave that will cause more symptoms and completely incapacitate me.

 

What happens if I hold and don't stabilize?  Because I don't think I'm ever going to get better on drugs anymore.  Am I prolonging the agony?  Or can a person heal while still on the drugs?

[Jemima]

Getting the drug out of your system isn't the solution to withdrawal symptoms.  Antidepressants and other psychiatric drugs make structural changes to the central nervous system, including the brain, and these changes don't instantly reverse when the drug is out of one's system.  The whole idea of a slow taper is to give the CNS some of this chemical support as it gradually changes back to a normal structure.  Removing this chemical support abruptly causes a lot more problems than it solves in that the CNS then has to struggle to regain balance with no help at all.  I imagine it as something like yanking a crutch away from a person with a broken leg and letting them struggle to their feet with no assistance.

 

You've also dropped three strong drugs--cold turkey, I assume--in the last three months, plus decreased your Prozac dosage less than three weeks ago.  Any of these changes alone could cause discomfort to linger.  I know how tempting it is to tamper with medication, supplements, or other things we think will relieve the pain immediately, but there is no such thing as quick relief.  (If there were, it would be posted here, prominently).  Please try to remember that.

 

As uncomfortable as you are, it's still likely best to ride it out as well as you can without changing anything until you stabilize again. And you will stabilize if you leave things alone long enough.  It looks to me like you've been going on and off of these drugs for a couple of years and that has done damage that needs to heal.

 

Hang in there.  Things will get better eventually, just not as fast as you want.

 

[cmusic]

The drops of Lamictal and Remeron were not gradual but I never got the doses up to anywhere near normal levels - and I was only on Lamictal for three months and Remeron for 1.  I do believe these drugs had a negative effect on my system, but I felt I needed to get off them before they did make structural changes and cause long term issues.

 

The high dose SSRI's I was on for 10 years, however, are a whole different story.  I pushed and pushed those, abruptly switched several times, and then got off Effexor in 3 months and cold turkey'd Prozac.  That was all bad bad stuff.  I trusted the advice of multiple doctors and that was a mistake.  I have had severe emotional trauma and brutal physical pain ever since.

 

Last, the benzos.  I was on them in 2010 every few days or so when I crashed abruptly into panic attacks.  Then I was on them full time for a year.  Then I got off in a month but for the past two years have been using them around once a week.  I'm not sure if this could have kept me 'kindling' or dependent in any way but the docs say no.  I didn't care and decided as of a few months ago I'm going to try and be off them for good.  I'm just trying to remove variables.  But now there is absolutely no way to get relief, even for a few hours.

 

So that leaves the low dose of Prozac I reinstated in May.  It's not an insignificant dose, but it hasn't helped.  Maybe - a little - with the severity of the anxiety.  But not enough to warrant the reinstatement.  I felt severely agitated when putting it back, and it 'could' be contributing to this burning in my hands and all over my body.  I don't know and have no way of knowing.  It's a very tough situation because I agree that ideally I'd want to try and stabilize, but why wait years to feel better with a drug still in the equation then have to get off it and restart this hell?  I'm already in hell, so tapering off now would mean that when the hell ends it ends.

 

I'm really not trying to be difficult - I just go back and forth.  For me it's been one mistake after the next.  Cold turkey in 2010 (mistake) --- try all kinds of new drugs for three years (mistake) --- cold turkey 2 drugs at the end of this year (mistake) --- reinstate low dose Prozac in May (mistake) ---  now what?  If the reinstatement is not providing any chemical support, and may be causing debilitating physical symptoms, I can't help thinking I should be tapering off.  Not cold turkey, but over six months or so.

 

Anyway just thinking out loud.  Thanks again for the support everyone provides on this site.  I can only hope I'll be able to contribute a success story someday.

[Rhiannon]

cm, my opinion has not changed:  

changing meds isn't going to help and although taking Prozac now doesn't make you feel better you don't know how much worse you can feel if you keep cutting too much too fast, and do you REALLY want to find out? Because, believe me, worse exists.

 

Actually for me when I get that "damn the torpedoes, cut cut cut cut!" urge I have come to recognize it as a symptom of withdrawal, a sign (like cortisol mornings and bad insomnia) that it's time for me to hold my taper for a while. I think it's a sort of obsessiveness combined with anxiety and the inability to see the bigger picture--due to I think our amygdalas (amygdalae?) and hippocampi and frontal lobes being messed up.

 

As far as whether or not you are permanently disabled, well, first, let me say that health anxieties are also very typical withdrawal symptoms, sometimes to the point of obsession, and in my experience most common with benzo withdrawal (as indeed is the "cut cut cut" syndrome described above). Pretty much everything you are saying sounds like the way people in withdrawal talk, especially benzo withdrawal, although there's really not much difference and tons of overlap between the different meds.

 

All the physical symptoms you describe are also typical of withdrawal.  The symptoms of withdrawal overlap and mimic the symptoms of MANY disease states and health conditions, so if you are concerned I do recommend getting a thorough medical workup, but if they find nothing, don't worry, that's typical too.

 

And as far as whether this is for life or not: I have followed hundreds of people through this withdrawal process, some with extremely challenging and complex histories, and I have not yet met one whose withdrawal symptoms did not improve during the time I was following them. You are definitely not going to be where you are at right now for the rest of your life. As for whether you will carry some remaining problems, that nobody can say. I don't personally know anyone with protracted withdrawal who feels like they have plateaued out for life with their recovery; everyone seems to feel that there is still gradual improvement happening even many years out. But that's not to say that those people don't exist. Nobody can answer that question. 

 

But you will definitely be better than you are NOW if you let your CNS heal.

 

So get a medical workup; work on mindfulness so you can see your symptoms as symptoms and not as something you need to react to and freak out about or fix; and focus on what you CAN do, which is to follow the suggestions in Symptoms and Self-Care and on Gia's blog Beyond Meds and elsewhere in peoples' threads (Alexijice has written some good self-care stuff over the years) for taking care of yourself and getting through the days one day at a time.

 

I can't fix your anxiety. No amount of reassurance, nothing anyone tells you, is going to make that anxiety go away, because it's chemical and caused by neurotransmitter disruption and wobbly hemostasis.  Hang in there. It will get better. You've got to give it a chance.

 

I just cannot accept the idea that there is no solution for withdrawal besides time. Because it sucks too bad.

 

There may be another solution. It's just that those of us with a lot of experience actually working on the front lines have not seen it yet, and given the thousands of hours that we have between us, with hundreds (or more) of peoples' stories heard and followed, if there was a solution that worked other than time and slow tapering, I am pretty sure we would have heard about it.

 

Now if the pharmaceutical companies decided that people were more important than profits and some research dollars were poured into the problem of helping people stop taking their drug$, that would be a different story. Also it would be a very cold day in a very warm place, and we'd be swatting pigs out of the sky.

[Meimeiquest]

Rhi, all such very good points.

 

C, I wonder if it would help your piece of mind to get a 24 hour urine test of your adrenal hormones. Then you could see in black and white something that IS abnormal. Blood or salivary tests don't mean much because they are just a snapshot of that moment. A "video" of the whole day is more accurate. Or if you can just see that all your symptoms are on the list of tough withdrawal symptoms.

 

Regarding the Prozac, I just got off Wellbutrin at the advice of a listed SA doctor. He said I was perfectly fine (true, then) and was on such a tiny dose it wasn't doing anything, and I was in danger of a " nocebo" response from being anxious about getting off. The withdrawal symptoms weren't too bad, but it threw my GABA system off, so now I have a benzo dilemma. So I would say if in doubt, just hold.

 

Rhi, what I especially think of in progressing with WD therapy is in the area of neuroplasticity. Which is what we all are pinning our hopes on. But the one book I've read on the topic discusses intense mental effort. For example, the amazing progress of stroke patients has been through restraining healthy limbs and then hours a day of effort with the affected limb. Hard, hard work, not just waiting for time to do its magic. Would there be an analogy in making an intense mental effort (I would think professional help would have to be involved) to get our thoughts calmed down. So including myself in that! Hudgeons has been doing group and individual therapy...I wonder if that 's why his withdrawal has been so calm lately. The book I recommended to c recommends very specialized therapy for getting at the underlying beliefs that support the stress response. And neuroplasticity also maintains that the more you run a certain thought circuit, the stronger that circuit becomes.

[cmusic]

This is a great point Meime,

 

One of the hardest things is the racing thoughts about the situation. About 'it'. In my case I have been dealing with this for three years and its consumed my life. Even with mindfulness which I do my best to practice, I can't stop the thinking about it. In fact, it's the only thing I think about. I try to work, distract, do other things but a physical symptom or thought or feeling will have me right back within a matter of seconds.

 

I view this as a symptom too, but to meime's point, the thoughts going all day every day are strengthening those circuits and making it harder and harder to get any distance from. And the harder you try to 'not' think about something the more you think about it.

 

As far as specialized therapists, the issue is finding them. I have had no luck with finding any therapists that are more than typical talk or CBT. It's difficult and time and money consuming process. I have a good talk therapist but that's more for just emotional support and behaivoral stuff.

[sly]

Hi cmusic,

 

just read the start and end of your post.

I have a slight impression what you are experiencing right now. Felt the same early this year. I had a bad depression from stress at the company.

Felt the depression and terrible anxiety. In my case CYMBALTA helped already after 10 days. Now I am tapering down (see my thread in my signature).

Make yourself clear - these are all unreal thoughts that you have. Your nervous system has to recover! I really hope for you it will soon be better.

I know it is not easy but YOU HAVE TO FIGHT!

 

Did you ever try 5 HTP ?

It increases your serotonin level dramatically (4-5 time better that ADs) without any side effects as it is a natural med from an african root.

 

Best wishes from Germany!

 

Sly

[Jemima]

Not to highjack this thread, but taking 5HTP while on or tapering off an antidepressant is playing with fire.  It can result in a life-threatening condition called Serotonin Syndrome. 5HTP is very likely not a good idea for anyone who has gone through withdrawal from antidepressants because the CNS is already sensitized to anything that increases the level of serotonin.  Please note that there is no proof whatever that depression is caused by a serotonin "deficiency".

 

Here's our topic on 5HTP and Tryptophan:

 

5HTP and Tryptophan

[cmusic]

Yeah I would agree. I've tried it and it made me anxious and caused my GI to go on fire. I actually think more serotonin right now is a bad thing for me. I think the Prozac I reinstated is agitating me in this way too.

[Ciera]

Side effects generally decrease as you decrease dosage. If those are Prozac side effects, they should decrease as you systematically taper.I would not just go off to see what happens.

Hi, Altostrata!

Reading this, I commend you  for saying side effects should decrease as you "systematically taper."

I got off Zoloft way too fast (almost cold turkey) and my experience has been that the side effects I had on Zoloft carried right along into WD, along with some new ones that popped up.

Another reason for careful tapering!!

[Ciera]

Replying to myself to say that this is just my experience. I defer totally to the admistrators to give advice on meds, tapering, etc etc.

[Jemima]

Ciera,

 

I see you've just joined us.  Please tell us about yourself in the 'Introductions and updates' discussion.

[Rhiannon]

Rhi, what I especially think of in progressing with WD therapy is in the area of neuroplasticity. Which is what we all are pinning our hopes on. But the one book I've read on the topic discusses intense mental effort. For example, the amazing progress of stroke patients has been through restraining healthy limbs and then hours a day of effort with the affected limb. Hard, hard work, not just waiting for time to do its magic. Would there be an analogy in making an intense mental effort (I would think professional help would have to be involved) to get our thoughts calmed down. So including myself in that! Hudgeons has been doing group and individual therapy...I wonder if that 's why his withdrawal has been so calm lately. The book I recommended to c recommends very specialized therapy for getting at the underlying beliefs that support the stress response. And neuroplasticity also maintains that the more you run a certain thought circuit, the stronger that circuit becomes.

 

Yes, this is the approach of the Gupta programme and other approaches to limbic retraining. I use it with my WD all the time. It doesn't always help at that moment, probably because when things are out of whack chemically due to the drugs you can't always get immediate results; but overall it does seem to be helping me, especially with the doomsday thinking. But not always, when I'm in acute withdrawal it doesn't really relieve it, but I think it does help me remember that what I'm experiencing is withdrawal.

 

I think the constant reinforcing of those "it's okay" pathways rather than the "it's awful" pathways is definitely helpful when you can do it! Limbic retraining has been powerfully helpful for me in many areas including chemical sensitivities, withdrawal thought distortions, and PTSD from childhood abuse.  Not a magic perfect fix, but helpful, and I don't really work at it as hard as I could.

[cmusic]

I wanted to check in. I'm pretty much dying here. I have been spiraling into a psychosis that is hard to imagine. Every day I wake to the terror that is this nightmare. My head lis literally burning and my thoughts are completely out of control. Any thought of anything that isn't about this situation causes a wave of terror. I have become completely incapable of doing anything. I am losing everything.

 

A person can only take so much. I don't know if I have a disease in my brain now. If plasticity can work against the mind that is obsessive and full if fear creating a worsening and not improving situation. But I am literally trapped in an inferno. My limbic system is on fire. My body burns and burns.

 

I have been the most hopeless I have ever been. So what if you get better in a decade. Life is over. Family is gone. I am about to go on benzos or do something with electricity because I can't stand this hell any longer.

 

I get no relief from the fear, the burning fight or flight. None. Not a second. Ever. My family wants to help me but they don't understand. Even others in withdrawal don't understand how much pain this is. I can't stay home, lie down, do anything. Nothing gives me even a moment of relief. Human beings can't live like this.

 

I look at others and see them improve. Why can't that happen for me? Why can't I get better?

[alex]

I am so sorry cmusic; I'm afraid you are in early-acute withdrawal.

It will get better;believe me.

In the meantime you must hang on and try to survive each day at a time.

 

Hang on!

[Petunia]

Thank you for posting an update, I'm so sorry you are going through this.

 

 I don't know if I have a disease in my brain now. If plasticity can work against the mind that is obsessive and full if fear creating a worsening and not improving situation......

 

 

Its very unlikely you have a brain disease, like Alex wrote, this is classic withdrawal.  From looking at your signature, you are in withdrawal from several medications and I would think your nervous system is destabilized from so many changes over the last couple of years.

 

 

 

Even others in withdrawal don't understand how much pain this is. I can't stay home, lie down, do anything. Nothing gives me even a moment of relief......

 

You might be right that some others have different experiences, but there are members here who have had extreme symptoms, and on other sites.  I went through a period of about 3 - 6 months where I got no relief.  I was living moment to moment, at the very worst times, second by second.  Each moment I got through was a little success.  It was before I found this site, I didn't know I was having withdrawal effect from medications and I was exacerbating my problems by taking different things randomly, trying to make myself feel better.  It wasn't until I learned what was going on and accepted the situation and stopped taking things, letting my nervous system slowly settle down, that my symptoms VERY slowly started to reduce.  I've been suffering since Nov, 2011, but its only been in the last 3 months that I've started to believe that I'm actually healing.  I still get those days occasionally where I'm just trying to survive through each moment.

 

 

 

 

I look at others and see them improve. Why can't that happen for me? Why can't I get better?

 

It will happen for you, you will get better.  For some of us, this just takes a lot longer than we would like.  You have been taking these medications for a long time and have made a lot of changes recently, so its going to take a while before your nervous system stabilizes.

 

Hang in there, you will get better.

[cmusic]

My fear is because I have no sense of what's going on. In 2010 when all this started I took Cipro. It is a quinolone and can people say it can have serious long term effects on the CNS. I was taking benzos at the time. And I also took a steroid pack. All of these thins affect GABA receptors. And I was 2 months off cold turkey of Prozac.

 

In the last three years a lot had changed but that underlying almost subconscious intense panic and fear has not relented. That is why I am terrified that this is not just withdrawal. There is no test for any of this - doctors won't even acknowledge that Cipro could cause damage. Or I could be wrong about the whole thing. It could have nothing to do with it.

 

I am getting worse and worse. I don't know how to believe this is simply withdrawal and it will improve. I'm still holding at 4mg Prozac which I can't tell if it's helping or hurting because when I reinstated it caused agitation but now I'm stuck on it.

 

I feel like I'm in a situation where there is no way out and I've felt like that for a long time. This if welling of being trapped is reinforcing trauma every day and causing me to spiral towards psychosis. I somehow need to break this cycle. I don't know how but it can't go on like this.

[cmusic]

I cannot literally cannot for a second feel a sense of relaxation or that things are ok. I asked my doctor for an EEG test but he said it wasn't indicated. I just want to know if there's something wrong with my brain waves or some validation of this monster inside me.

 

I am considering TMS. I consider it a big risk because it could aggravate things but I can't continue like this. And if I go back to drugs again it will be game over. Benzos wouldn't work more than a few weeks or at all and I'd be looking at another more severe kindled withdrawal.

 

Being trapped and hopeless is the worst possible place to be. I don't know. I just don't. And with the Prozac still there it's not like I'm even getting further and further out. It may be keeping me like this too. It's a complete nightmare. No way to mentally sort it out.

[alex]

Again cmusic, I'm sorry your'e going through this nightmare.

The monster inside you is called withdrawal, and with time it will get better.

You MUST try to calm down and stop the spiral of fear.

Look in the internet for EFT (Emotional Freedom Tecnique)

Also you can try with Valerian Root Tincture.

 

Hang in there!!

[Rhiannon]

Just want to chime in: what you're experiencing, as you describe it, sounds just like severe withdrawal symptoms as described by many others I've talked to over the years.  I doubt that you have some other condition. That feeling of being stuck and hopeless is itself a symptom of withdrawal, as is the thinking that says this is the worst it has ever been and it will never get better.

 

I wish I could offer you some help that would just fix what you're going through. I know people often try other drugs and other treatments, and sometimes they get some help from those, but it seems like just as often they just get worse, so I hate to recommend that course of action. It's up to you, but please keep in mind that your thinking and decision-making is probably not at its best right now.

 

I can definitely relate, I have acted impulsively and in desperation many times in my life, and probably will again. 

 

I am so sorry you are in such terrible suffering. I wish I could help you. I still think that time and being very gentle to your CNS will help, but I realize that's not much consolation for you today, especially since it could take a LOT of time.

[cmusic]

Thanks. A lot of time is what I don't have. I have a family and two little boys. They need a dad. This is what makes me break down and the cycle continues. Feeling trapped is not just about the notion of never getting better - it's about getting better but having it be too late.

 

How long is a lot of time? I've been off Effexor for 11 months and on a very low dose of Prozac. I was taking benzos only once every week and don't know if that was maintaining dependence but have been off those for four months. I know that going back on something after all this will probably harm me. But staying hopeless is reinforcing the fear over and over.

 

Sorry to be so negative.

[cmusic]

I am posting to ask a question. Among other things I have had a low grade fever for three weeks. In fact when this autonomic stuff started and the burning and everything I have not had a cold in the same way. My family has had them. I know I get the virus but no symptoms - just burning and anxiety bordering on psychosis.

 

I also have had a history if chronic inflammatory conditions. Have been told I have candida - severe tonsil fungus and chronic sinus, IBS and other.

 

Anyway this hell is even worse because I can't ever feel physically well. I'm burning up and freezing at the same time pretty much all day. Could cortisol be surprising my ability to fight off infection? Could this be histamine related? Tried Zyrtec but didn't lower the fever. Could my body be viewing the Prozac as hostile? What else could this be?

 

Need some relief and some hope so bad. Still on 4 mg Prozac and stuck. Having very bad psychotic anxiety and intrusive thoughts about bad things and brain feels on fire. Fear that this will never end. May end up in the hospital. Please any thoughts appreciated.

[Meimeiquest]

Well, here's an expensive thought...some of us have just listened to an e-seminar by Kelly Brogan, MD. She is an integrative psychiatrist who specializes in perinatal psychiatry. BUT she does see men in reference to drug withdrawal. She is all about inflammation and the cascade of changes it can cause, as well as cortisol issues. She consults patients via Skype. But she works in NYC so she can't be cheap. She may not agree with all the principles of SA, but she likely knows a ton more than your average pdoc.

Kellybroganmd.com. She also has an article up right now at madinamerica.com.

[Altostrata]

Since you have a fever, I would think you have a virus or bacterial infection. An antihistamine isn't going to do anything for this.

 

It does sound like you need to consult a holistic doctor, cmusic -- someone who will address what appear to be physical issues. For example, IBS -- this indicates problems with the engine room of your body. Underlying physical illness can affect recovery from withdrawal syndrome.

 

You might look for an osteopathic physician in general practice in your area and get serious about treating some of the systemic issues. The D.O. is accorded the same status as M.D., but they have a more holistic approach. You might find some take your health insurance.