Mattyb78 Halfway there but still so far away?

[Rhiannon]

The window is a great sign. Keep on keeping on, you will get more of those. It will be up and down for a while but you'll see, the ups will gradually take over and outnumber the downs. Just don't do anything drastic.

 

If there's any way you can keep your job but just adjust your expectations slightly, any way you can make it a bit less stressful, I think you'll find if you hang in there that you'll be glad you did.

 

I don't know what your financial situation is and how stressful having less money would be, of course. It could be you have quite a bit of slack and you don't really need to hang on to this position, in which case having a nice long healing vacation could be good. If you have savings and you have security, it might be worth it.

 

But if it's going to be seriously hard and disruptive to lose the job, consider seeing if you can kind of just do it not-as-well-as-usual for a while. I say that because this does come up for people sometimes and people are often surprised to see that they actually can function better than they expected, and not only that but the distraction is actually sometimes helpful.

[Mattyb78]

Hello everyone!

 

I've been meaning to update for such a long time. It's been a year since my 'crash' and it has been quite a year! I quit my job in the end, and eventually stabilised at 13mg. No more waves and windows! After a few weeks I was able to start two part time jobs, but winter was a tough time.

The first drop I attempted, in January was a paltry 1% drop and it hit me with anxiety and (for the first time ever) depression. I have never had depression before and it was tough for a few days.

It was strange, I think it triggered something in me as I felt more real than ever afterwards, almost as if he drugs stopped working. If someone had told me I had actually dropped 10mg instead of 0.1mg I would have believed them! Not so much the withdrawals but the different way I felt afterwards. Normal anxiety at normal things!

 

Since then I have only dropped by 0.1mg every three months, but it hasn't been too bad. I am finally beginning to know my body and when to drop.

 

A week after a drop I get very hot with night sweats and body aches, like the 'flu.

Over the next month I get extreme aches and swelling in my knees, which passes as the wd finishes. Sometimes I get a bit of anxiety and maybe depression.

Six weeks after I am clear, but I'll wait another month before dropping again.

 

The strangest thing is that the tinnitus hasn't really left, although it isn't very noticeable and the hyperacusis (jumpiness at sounds) is only rarely present when I withdraw.

 

So, a year on and I am much better. Yes, still on the tablets and while there hasn't been much progress in mg in a year the difference in me is huge. I feel a lot more real now and I think that's due to taking the same dose every day and not alternating. I wouldn't recommend it.

 

I want to thank everyone here for helping me last year, especially Rhi and Altostrata. I try to help a lot of people on one of the Facebook groups but you guys were there for me when I didn't have any advice for myself and nowhere else to turn.

 

Love, peace and a slow, stable taper!

 

Matty

[Altostrata]

You are very welcome, Matty.

 

Paroxetine is truly one of the worst psychiatric drugs for withdrawal. It sounds like you are handling your taper in the best way it can be handled.

 

Please do come by and let us know how you are doing.

[Mattyb78]

Hi Everyone, I need some help please.

 

I'm trying to work out what's going on, you'll see from my original post that I have been very slowly tapering Seroxat/paroxetine for a long time, originally given for anxiety. I crashed two years ago (almost to the day) in my original post, reinstated up at 13.5mg, stablilised over about 6 weeks and since then I have been conducting a super slow taper, using the liquid to drop 0.1mg every 6 months or so.

 

I tried such a small taper to see how it would go, I didn't expect to feel any WDs but I did, about 3-6 weeks after I would feel a little anxiety, a little anger and sometimes a little depression. Plus physical symptoms of night sweating, tinnitus/hyperacusis, crawling sensation in the head, and joint aches. Never any head zaps.

 

I figured if that's how slow I need to go, then fine. However, over the last year I felt my original symptoms beginning to reappear - 'normal anxiety' mainly, which started to creep in. I also felt depression at times, something I have NEVER had in my whole life pre-PX. These symptoms weren't just when I was dropping, they came and went sporadically, I felt like the chemicals were changing even though I wasn't dropping a dose. I would even feel the crawling in my head. I didn't see it as a bad thing really, in a way it was nice to have low anxiety which came and went, it made me feel normal again.

 

After my crash 2 years ago (original post) I had to quit my job because I presumed the stress was making things worse. After a month at the higher dose I took a couple of mediocre jobs to pay the bills, but last November I felt good enough to try my hand at a decent job again, with a fair share of pressure and stress. I'm still currently doing this. At first I felt a great deal of self-confidence return.

 

I'll get to the current situation now. I dropped from 12.6mg to 12.5mg in February, and hadn't felt stable since. I also felt some nasty depression at times. When the summer started, nothing had changed and I also noticed a return of some familiar physical symptoms - bloating mainly, very hot, very thirsty. I wondered 2 things - is there something else seasonal going on? It feels like an allergy in a way, I had a big flare up of a long running Athletes foot problem, it felt like I was under attack. I have ONLY ever experienced problems like these in the summers, only ever had anxiety issues in the summers, looking back over the years. Is there something physical going on which either pushes my anxiety through the roof or stops the tablets from working? Any ideas for this first one would be good.

 

 

With this going on, I wondered if I was stuck at an awkward dose and needed to drop again to kick-start things. So I plucked up the courage to drop another 0.1mg (tiny isn't it?!) in July. I felt the effects almost immediately, typical withdrawals with all of my mental and physical symptoms and also Akathesia to boot. My doc had prescribed me Propanalol for anxiety a while back and I never took it more than once, this time I split the pills into 10mg quarters and I 'think' they help a little. I'm worried to try any more, perhaps I should?

 

Fast forward to today and I am so confused. There seems to be no pattern to my symptoms, although I mostly feel an increase in anxiety or a lack of patience before I take my tablets at dinner time, but sometimes it seems like a big evening meal brings on depression in the evening. I've had depressive or anxious waves which while only lasting a couple of hours generally are extreme and leave me in floods of tears. I've also felt derealisation at the same time. I've spent a few nights without managing to sleep until 4-5am.

 

I am hot a lot of the time, well I feel VERY hot and I'm sweating, but my temperature is normal. Apparently my head feels normal temperature to other people but it feels like its burning up to me. I'm losing weight because my appetite is shot, and my stomach is tender to the touch. However, one day is never the same as the next, there is literally no pattern I can see.

 

Because of the physical symptoms, I went to the docs and she sent off some bloods to be tested. Kidney function, white blood count etc, all normal. She didn't do blood sugars, I did wonder if Diabetes could be considered, my Dad developed it and while I'm not terrible unfit or obese I do eat a sugary diet. I also recognise that I'm desperate for ANY physical disease that can be treated! I even wondered about Adrenal fatigue. The doc didn't test for cortisol.

 

The other, more scary thought, is that the drug has stopped working. But does this happen while doing a long taper? I have an appointment with a mental health nurse next week with a view to seeing a psychiatrist (i'm in the UK so this is free).

 

About 10 days ago I updosed to 12.9mg (from 12.45) and last weekend I did have my first decent couple of days where I felt stable again and enjoyed myself. Then sunday night I was hit with the non-sleeping, the hotness and sweating, thirsty, mixed sleep, and this has continued to today, and a small depressive wave to boot. What is going on?

 

The problem with all this is that I simply CANNOT afford to not function if it gets worse. My wife is pregnant with twins, due in December. At the moment I'm the majorty wage-winner and I need this to continue at least for a couple of years. Plus I need to be able to cope with the new babies (and our adorable 3yr old) when they come  At the moment I am most scared that I can't work out what is happening and I don't know what to do to make it better. Plus I don't feel I can rely on the medical profession to understand this complexity.

 

I am a member of a facebook group for paroxetine taperers and I like to think my knowledge is pretty good. My dad and my Mum (both long term SSRI users with no problems-typical) suggested I need to stop tapering, or switch to something else. I agree with them, I simply can't afford to crash or poop-out, not now. My family needs me and I will do anything to make sure I can function enough to work. Right now, I am just about coping on bad days and am ok on good days, but I just cant seem to predict what is going to happen. I know the stress isn't helping, but obviously I'm worried.

 

What are your opinions please? does this sound like typical 'poop-out' or tolerance? If so, perhaps I want to switch. Do I try to switch to fluoxetine/Prozac or do I try another SSRI instead? I'm not fussed about getting off for the time being, I just want to feel ok so I can be a decent Dad/Husband, and so I can work. If not an immediate switch, should I updose further, I have spent a long time getting down to 12-13mg but If I can get stable by updosing then I will, perhaps I can eventually swap to something kinder?

 

Is there a chance there is something physical underlying which is affecting me, perhaps something dietary which would explain the problems after meals, or the fact I sometimes feel bad up to a meal and then ok again as soon as I've eaten? Perhaps I am just desperate for a solution. I would take anything 'recognised' by the doctors just so they know how to treat it.

 

 

Thanks so much for your opinions, and for taking the time to read my long post. I have spent many years helping people on the facebook page but this time I feel I cant help myself work out what is going on/what to do.

 

Matt

[ChessieCat]

Hi Matt,

 

Firstly, congratulations on your wife's pregnancy with twin baby girls.

 

My suggestion would be to get tested for diabetes, to at least rule that in/out.

 

I am going to ask the other mods for their thoughts about your situation. 

[Mattyb78]

I have woken up this morning with even more anxiety than yesterday, really struggling to make it through work without rushing home. This feels like previous big drops, except I haven't dropped anything more than 1% for years now, so am I experiencing tolerance withdrawal? If so, will I be helped by an updose to 15mg or similar, as I have been reducing for many years now to get to 12-13mg.

 

I did updose from 12.4-12.9mg about 10 days ago but after feeling good at the weekend I am worse than ever with anxiety now.

[nick1990]

Hey Matty. Just read your thread. Sorry your having such a hard time coming off this stuff. It is strange that you have such wd just from such tiny drops. Are you sure that you properly stabilized??

From what ive read here, drops so small should not have such an effect. However if your not properly stable, any reduction throws us off.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Matt,

 

How old is the liquid that you are using?  Or is it a new batch?  This sometimes causes an issue.

 

Are you still taken propranolol?

[Mattyb78]

Hi Chessie, interesting you should ask. I was originally using it for three months before running out, then getting a reorder, then I translated the German and saw it was only good for a month.

 

Are there any instances of people not tolerating the liquid very well? Every micro drop I've done since adding liquid has brought on wds, even when spreading a 1% drop over a month! Also had tinnitus/hyperacusis since I went up from 10-13.5 with liquid two years ago after my 13-10 crash.

 

No different batches, always 'Seroxat' as demanded.

 

I will have to try an updose if this continues to worsen, perhaps up to 15mg so I can use just tablets again- any advice?

 

Obviously I'm scared of an updose but as I said, I can't afford to crash so will have to try anything even a switch.

[Mattyb78]

Yes still taking propanolol 10mg, took one today and get anxiety drop a couple of hours afterwards.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Matt,

 

Have you taken note of your dose times and when symptoms appear?

 

I can see from your signature that you have been using liquid since 2014.  Have you been getting the same symptoms since then?

 

The reason I am asking these 2 questions is because I am wondering if you are getting interdose withdrawal.  That is the level of drug in your system is dropping and causing symptoms before your next dose.

 

If you haven't kept notes, I suggest that you do to see if there is a pattern.

 

My thought is that splitting your dose may help.  If you are thinking of trying this please post here that you would like to so the other mods can give their opinion.  You would need to change 1/2 the dose forward/back gradually.

[Altostrata]

Hello, Matty.

 

You might look at thyroid and endocrine tests, as Chessie suggested. Also, you may wish to reduce your sugar intake, blood sugar level fluctuations can cause strange symptoms.

 

Have you tried fish oil and magnesium supplements, see
http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/
http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1300-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

A lot of people find them helpful. Try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you.

 

As you're taking more than 10mg paroxetine, you might take 10mg in tablets and the rest in liquid, that might reduce any problems you have tolerating the liquid, if that is the problem.

 

Please keep daily notes, your symptom pattern may indicate what's going on.
 

[wantrelief]

Hi Matty,

 

I wanted to check and see how you were doing?  i hope you are feeling better.  I relate to your hitting these blocks in your tapering process; it is so frustrating when you are going slowly and still have problems.  It is difficult for me to discern if it is withdrawal or tolerance as well.

 

I sent you a PM.

 

Michele

[JanCarol]

Hey Matty - I'm sorry you are struggling again!  

 

while I'm not terrible unfit or obese I do eat a sugary diet. 

 

Certainly, get your thyroid and blood sugar tested to ensure that you cannot address this medically.  However, be careful - diabetic drugs can have problems of their own, and it would be better if you can address this through lifestyle and exercise.

 

https://chriskresser.com/pills-or-paleo-preventing-and-reversing-type-2-diabetes/

https://chriskresser.com/how-to-prevent-diabetes-and-heart-disease-for-16/

 

Instead of looking at this as "diabetes" look at is as blood sugar spikes.  These can mess with your mood, anxiety, and, I've found contribute to tinnitus, too.  

 

I struggle with this - always borderline diabetic, but never over the line.  You can read more about managing your blood sugar, here:

https://chriskresser.com/when-your-normal-blood-sugar-isnt-normal-part-1/ and here:  

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1165-sugar-its-effect-on-mental-health-and-withdrawal/

 

I even wondered about Adrenal fatigue.

 

Withdrawal looks a lot like what naturopaths and internet sites call "adrenal fatigue."  In reality it is quite rare.  There is a discussion here - I suffer from adrenal difficulties (my orthomolecular doc calls it "adrenal fatigue stage 3" but I just call it "adrenal issues"), and there is a discussion here.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1591-withdrawal-syndrome-vs-adrenal-fatigue/

 

Cortisol tests, whether blood, saliva or urine only give snapshots of your cortisol which is cycling all the time.  They can test your blood, but depending on your sleep cycle, that's only an instant test of right now.  The saliva test is usually over a 24 hour period, but if you sleep a different cycle, like I do, the test can be wildly inaccurate.  The urine test gives an average of over 24 hours.  Most of these numbers tell a practitioner very little.  Practitioners who claim otherwise are pretty questionable.

 

I am more concerned with your physical symptoms of anxiety, and how you react to them.

 

First, you can take up a core strengthening, adrenal calming exercise, such as pilates, yoga, tai chi, weightlifting - any exercise which strengthens your core and where you breathe in sync with movement.  This improves the communication between your adrenals and your cerebral cortex, and improves your cortisol response:

http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/08/cortical-adrenal-orchestra/496679/

 

Next, look into Claire Weekes, a gentle Australian MD who doesn't even call it "anxiety," but instead "Nervous condition."  She focuses on separating your emotions and attachment to the physical symptoms of arousal:

How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes

 

Thirdly, consider rephrasing the word "anxiety" to "excitement."  To tell someone to "calm down" is the hardest thing for them to do, because an "anxious" body is in a state of arousal.  To re-translate that arousal into excitement is much easier, and enhances your performance.  I just learned this one:

Atlantic: I am Excited! Turn Anxiety into Excitement

 

See, the thing is - even though you've done really well at reducing your drugs - it is vitally important to address the reason you went on them in the first place.  They don't solve your problems, they mask them.  Coping tools will be vitally important, and life-changing, as you come down lower in dose.

 

It hardly seems fair that you are suffering through the tiniest drops.  

 

You are such a champion.  I hope I offer something helpful to you.