marie123: tapering trazodone

[Bestill]

I am very lucky right now and don’t have insomnia.  I do have nights of broken sleep but not a whole lot.

 

The last two days it was warmer and then today we are slammed with a cold, windy and gloomy day and my body feels it all.  I have this awesome phlegm ball in my throat that won’t disappear. It changes in consistency when weather changes.

 

You could always try the gummy and go from there.  I know it’s such a bummer when we can’t sleep.  I also feel it the next day just from my broken sleep.  Not fun.

[Gigi68]

Hi Marie, insomnia has been my worst problem with mirt, even before I began to taper. I started taking CBD:CBN last fall after I broke my arm. Between WD and the pain from the break, I was getting very little sleep. I started with a gummy that had no thc in it. It did help me relax but wasn’t quite enough for sleep. Then I tried a gummy that did have thc. It worked but unfortunately it also had melatonin in it which gives me horrible diarrhea. I now take a full spectrum tincture of CBD:CBN with thc. The thc in it is delta 9. An advantage of tincture is that it works quicker than gummies. You are correct in that I only take it if at least two hours has passed since I took mirt. It works very well for me. I also don’t take it every night- usually two or three nights a week. Hope you start sleeping better soon. 

[marie123]

46 minutes ago, Bestill said:

I am very lucky right now and don’t have insomnia.  I do have nights of broken sleep but not a whole lot.

 

The last two days it was warmer and then today we are slammed with a cold, windy and gloomy day and my body feels it all.  I have this awesome phlegm ball in my throat that won’t disappear. It changes in consistency when weather changes.

 

You could always try the gummy and go from there.  I know it’s such a bummer when we can’t sleep.  I also feel it the next day just from my broken sleep.  Not fun.

I do have that same phlegm thing going on in my throat too. It's in my nose too. I want to try the gummy but I know that the thc metabolizes in the liver just like Mirt. I could have a reaction. Taking it a few hours after Mirt might very well be okay, but what if it isn't. Anyways, I'm going to hold out for now and just deal with it. I was thinking maybe the sinus stuffiness is contributing to the little sleep. I know when I have a cold I can't sleep well. Marie.

[marie123]

21 minutes ago, Gigi68 said:

Hi Marie, insomnia has been my worst problem with mirt, even before I began to taper. I started taking CBD:CBN last fall after I broke my arm. Between WD and the pain from the break, I was getting very little sleep. I started with a gummy that had no thc in it. It did help me relax but wasn’t quite enough for sleep. Then I tried a gummy that did have thc. It worked but unfortunately it also had melatonin in it which gives me horrible diarrhea. I now take a full spectrum tincture of CBD:CBN with thc. The thc in it is delta 9. An advantage of tincture is that it works quicker than gummies. You are correct in that I only take it if at least two hours has passed since I took mirt. It works very well for me. I also don’t take it every night- usually two or three nights a week. Hope you start sleeping better soon. 

Hi Gigi. The gummy my husband takes is a nano THC gummy 6 mg. There are fillers but no melatonin or other oils. The nano is a different process than the regular gummies so that it hits faster. I would only take it once or twice just to get my sleep to settle if possible. I am going to wait it out a bit more first. Thanks.

 

The first time my husband took the gummy I told him I'd watch him fall asleep just in case. He fell asleep quickly but heard him making funny snoring noises. About 10 minutes into his sleep he quickly sits up and said, "I told you you would wake me up." He then quickly lays back down and goes into a deep sleep lol. I did not wake him because I was just laying there trying to fall asleep. He was just a bit wacked out. Marie.

[savinggrace]

Hi Marie,

 

I am so sorry that you have hit this insomnia problem.

 

I am likely speaking to the choir but regarding allergies (mine too are flaring up), mirtazapine has anti-histamine properties to it.  I had an allergist refuse to test me because he put some histamine under my skin, and I didn't react, so he said any allergy tests would be invalid while I am on mirtazapine.

 

I have had lifelong allergies, indoor and outdoor.  I still get flare-ups from trees, grass and pollen but I likely would have to substitute an anti-histamine for mirtazapine.  I take nothing for my allergies, but I am aware of this anti-histamine quality of mirtazapine. Do you use a neti-pot?  Nasal irrigation is something I do every day.  I am wearing a mask when I am outside as I did so last summer (compliments of COVID) and my fall allergies were better...or at least I didn't end up with a sinus infection as I usually do...every spring and every fall.

 

I have always taken a small dose of mirtazapine but we know that no amount is a "small dose"  I have tried marijuana in various forms over the years, though not for a very long time.  Every time I got severely dried out eyes and severe constipation.  The indica (I got a 10 mg. patch from a good source in CO (maybe 6-8 years ago) gave me severe constipation that took a very very long time to resolve.  I only took 2.5 mg. for two night.  I remember I slept through the night, which was amazing, but with this patch and a couple other forms, my eyes got scary dry (affected my vision)  Every time I tried it, I never used it more than a couple times, in tiny doses as I got side effects.  I am unusual though.  The constipation is often questioned by any person who recommends using CBD (which did the same) but there is a reason they common give THC/CBD etc. to Crohn's patients and others with diarrhea.  It helps with the diarrhea.

 

I also had no idea if taking marijuana, in any form, for any length of time, would de-rail my efforts to taper and be okay on lower doses etc.  My gut (literally) told me not to do it, as it tells me with any new food/substance/supplement I try. That said, you have tolerated a whole lot of things during your taper that I wouldn't have.  Ad nauseaum, I will say, we are all do different.

 

For so many reasons I gave up.  However, this is me.  As far as interactions, I can't remember the half-life of mirt but it is not gone by the middle of the night so it will compete with enzymes to metabolize it.

 

I don't want to discourage from trying anything that might help.  I sleep 2-3 hours/ night despite my meds.  I am not dismissing this at all.  Lifelong and severe insomnia is what landed me on psych drugs.  Now I sleep 1-2 nights/week, pretty well, out of pure exhaustion.  I have learned to accept the insomnia better than I used to, but honestly, I get suicidal pretty quickly when I sleep less than I am right now.  I am working on a 5% cut of trileptal right now and my sleep takes 3-4 months to return to pre-cut state.

 

Your tapering has gone so well.  I know you will proceed with well-informed caution.  You may, or may not, want to read about CYP450 interactions with marijuana...or if that is too technical just look up interactions.  You are in a much, much better place than I was to give it a try if you choose to.  I just felt I needed to share my experience if any part of it would help you make a decision.

 

Take care, Marie.  There is no reason to believe you won't get through this. 

 

My best,

Grace

[marie123]

Hello Grace. I do remember reading about interactions between Mirt and the indica that's why I am waiting it out. I have other things to try first. I have a new bottle of Magnesium Glycinate that I bought when I had restless legs. It went away before I received the mag. I had an old bottle of Hyland's Restful Legs and it worked. I may try the magnesium glycinate if this does not resolve in another week or so. It's been 8 nights so far of this insomnia. Tonight I will be walking to help sleep. This has worked in the past with other tapers.

 

One thing I did years ago after tapering off Ambien was sleep restriction. Since I was desperate for sleep I tried it. It was tough but it got me sleeping more solidly. I went to sleep at a normal time (11 PM), but I would force myself to get out of bed at 6 AM whether I slept or not. I did this for a week and it worked.

 

I do think I need more time to stabilize. I remembered that with the time difference of my last trip and the spring forward dosing, it must have screwed me up. Then I cut the dose. You know how Mirt gives you weird dreams. Last night I think dreamed that I couldn't sleep. Crazy stuff that Mirt is.

 

Good luck with your trileptal cut. Marie.

[marie123]

Hello. This is an update for my records. I did a couple of things to help me sleep. I cut out the afternoon half caff. I did not eat anything later at night. I took a walk out in the fresh air last night. I changed my Mirt pills to a fresh bottle. The Mirt pills I was taking had an old use by date. They were working fine so I continued to use them. I think  the fresh bottle helped. After taking my dose I got the nice sleepy feeling I would get from Mirt. I fell asleep quickly and slept for 5 straight hours. It was deep sleep but as often happens I woke up at 3:30 AM and could not go back to sleep. I am happy though that I slept the 5 hours. I'll take that and consider it as breaking the insomnia streak.

 

There is something going on with the weather here. I feel like I have seasonal allergies when I never did before. I have the THC gummies to take if I have to but will hold off for now. I'd like to get something with a lighter affect for when I wake up with the 3:30 AM cortisol. I don't get it badly anymore, but do wake up perspiring and more alert. I'd like to be able to go back to sleep at that time. Anyone know of anything that I could take when I wake up too early? Maybe a botanical, supplement or CBD/CBN w/o the THC. Marie.

[savinggrace]

Great to hear, Marie. This may not work for you, but I stay up late. I watch tv (not considered good sleep hygiene, know) or I read and fall asleep around 12:30-1:00. Then if I am fortunate enough to get 5 straight hours of sleep it is dawn or near dawn and doesn’t feel like being awake in the middle of the night. Sometimes I only sleep 2-3 hours. If that happens around 3-ish, I read (on my kindle with “no blue light” night setting) It often puts me back to sleep. The most important thing I do is try to tell myself that if I don’t sleep any more, I likely will the next night and I usually do. I have very few obligations and try not to make them in the early morning hours so if I am sleeping, I don’t have to get up. 
 

My method breaks a lot of accepted sleep hygiene rules. I have never ever been able to sleep before midnight which was hellish when I was working and getting up at 6 and raising 3 kids. I now do a lot of self-talk and tell myself that it is okay not to sleep. 
 

I may not seem like a credible source as I am still on meds. They obviously don’t help me sleep. I have not been well enough to taper but a tad in almost a year. My meds never made me sleepy except in the first months. 
 

I hope I am not annoying you with things that just won’t work for you. I feel like I have adopted a better relationship with sleep but I am still a crying mess after the two hour sleep nights. 

sweet dreams again. Likely you have broken the cycle!  My sleep has a definite up and down pattern attributable to ?
 

Grace

[Utek]

Hi Marie,

 

After my last cut, I started to get the cortisol spikes in the morning and could not go back to sleep.  I started taking Taurine at bedtime after seeing some people here have positive experiences with it. It has worked for me.  I still wake up, but I have gone back to sleep all but one time.  I take it before I go to bed.  I have not tried taking it when I wake up.

 

I have also tried lactium, but it is very mild, and does not seem to have much of an effect on a cortisol spike.

 

I hope you get some good sleep soon.

[marie123]

Thanks Utek and Grace for responding. I am going to wait and see how this week goes with the sleep. I'm crossing my fingers that I am stabilizing with sleep. I have a lot of options to try for sleep. Taurine is something else I can try. I think I have conditioned myself not to take anything since tapering 3 drugs has given me too much awareness of chemicals in my body. I will try something if sleep gets bad enough. I was hoping it would be at the very end of the taper and when I'm done with the taper. I know I want to try to sleep without anything at some point too. Marie.

[marie123]

Hello. This is an update for my records. I'm stable now and have been for a week or so. The sleep settled since then. It might have been the cut or the older Mirt pills. My mornings are increasingly better. The zombified feeling is much less. Slowly I go with the taper. My plan is to sneak off Mirt like a sly fox with .01 as my final dose if I have too.  I will probably cut in a week or so (.1 mg) that will bring me to 2.4 mg. I am trying in the meantime to get myself as healthy as I can. This is my plan and I'm sticking too it. Be well. Marie.

[Estman]

On 3/27/2023 at 6:52 PM, marie123 said:

Hello. This is an update for my records. I'm stable now and have been for a week or so. The sleep settled since then. It might have been the cut or the older Mirt pills. My mornings are increasingly better. The zombified feeling is much less. Slowly I go with the taper. My plan is to sneak off Mirt like a sly fox with .01 as my final dose if I have too.  I will probably cut in a week or so (.1 mg) that will bring me to 2.4 mg. I am trying in the meantime to get myself as healthy as I can. This is my plan and I'm sticking too it. Be well. Marie.

Hi Marie,
I'm glad you can sleep and you're better
I seem to be very sensitive when I reduce my dose
I have now been on the same dose for three weeks and the digestion is a little more tolerable
Unfortunately, I got the flu a week ago (with the whole family)
Others are better, but I am still very weak and very unwell
Today is the 10th day since the start of the flu
It feels like a wave, a lot of weakness and anxiety
Since I can't move around, I'm worried about when I'll recover
How long does it usually take to recover from the flu?

[marie123]

Hello Estman. It's hard to say. Some strains of flu hit you harder than others. It might take another week or so. The best thing I did when I had influenza is rest as much as possible. I rested in bed or feet up on the recliner. It makes the recovery faster.

 

The longer you hold your dose the better you will feel too.

 

Yes my sleep in generally stable but it doesn't mean it's all good and restful. It's acceptable and there are some days here and there that are good. Get some rest and feel better. Marie.

[Estman]

On 4/1/2023 at 7:08 PM, marie123 said:

Hello Estman. It's hard to say. Some strains of flu hit you harder than others. It might take another week or so. The best thing I did when I had influenza is rest as much as possible. I rested in bed or feet up on the recliner. It makes the recovery faster.

 

The longer you hold your dose the better you will feel too.

 

Yes my sleep in generally stable but it doesn't mean it's all good and restful. It's acceptable and there are some days here and there that are good. Get some rest and feel better. Marie.

Hi Marie,

Yes, I try to rest and move a little in between
I can't exactly understand whether this bad feeling (weakness is) from a passing flu virus or from gastroparesis
I'm most concerned about that last one

Unfortunately, the mood is still depressed
Today is day 12 of the flu and I moved around a bit, tried to do things
Unfortunately, my appetite hasn't really recovered yet, and two days ago I had severe nausea as if I was going to vomit.
My wife's mother, who also had the same flu virus, vomited.
I wanted to vomit, there was also a big panic, but I couldn't
Usually the woman's mother has no such problems and can eat anything
Then we had chicken risotto. Maybe it was spicy or had pineapple in it.
I wonder if some flu viruses can cause loss of appetite and nausea when eating something?
This is definitely not a normal stomach flu because it

Hope it gets better soon lasts for a few days.

 

[marie123]

Hi Estman. Sorry you are feeling poorly. Sure it can cause loss of appetite and nausea. I would try to hydrate as much as possible. I've lost weight when I've had bad viruses before. It will pass, just take it easy.

 

Since I am feeling pretty well I plan to cut either today or tomorrow. This will bring me down to 2.4 mg Mirt. At this point in my taper I really feel the side effects lessening. I can't wait until I'm done and see how much improvement I make in the year after. It will be interesting. Be well. Marie.

[Hibari]

Hi @marie123

 

It's good to hear how you are doing with your taper. 

 

I'm glad to hear the morning sedation is getting better for you as you move through the 2s. I am really feeling it now as I move lower but at least the Mirt is helping me sleep. It didn't help me at all when I was at 7.5mgs. 

 

Soon you will be into the 1s and then the home stretch to being med free. 

 

Wishing you continued healing. 

 

Hibari 

[marie123]

Thanks Hibari. Yes the morning sedation is a lot better but it still takes a lot to get me motivated. I need to work on that somehow. Marie.

[marie123]

Hello everyone. This last cut to 2.4 mg has been pretty good so far. Minor symptoms are there but in the background which is where I like my withdrawal to be. Cutting with the scale has worked so far for me. I weigh my dose three or four times and tare it each time, so I'm careful. I remember cutting trazodone on the tiny doses on a mirror and dividing the powder into doses. It could work for Mirt on the tiny doses but I'm not sure since Mirt is a stronger med. I'm stable now so I'm happy with that. Spring is early here so I'm taking advantage getting my gardens ready. I'll visit some arboretums and preserves this week too for some nature walks. Looking forward to an outdoor sculpture garden and art museum too. Be well. Marie.

[Hibari]

@marie123

 

Just wanted to say we cut and weigh very much the same. I weigh and tare several times for each cut and I actually use two scales so I can be super precise. (It's a carry over from my benzo tapering days).  

 

Visiting arboretums and preserves sounds wonderful. I've increased my walking distance in this weather so I can build up strength. 

 

Enjoy! 

 

Hibari 

[marie123]

Thanks Hibari. I thought about getting a second scale. It's even in my Amazon cart. Mine is still working though even after using it on the long traz taper. I can't remember if I used it for ambien. I'm a little foggy on that lol. Marie.

[marie123]

Hello everyone. This is another update for my records. I am going to cut another .1 mg Mirt which will bring me down to 2.3 mg. It feels good when I see that number. I always stay at one dose for 3 weeks at least to make sure the cuts don't pile on. I do not want to put myself in withdrawal hell. I want to be able to do things and live well.  Withdrawal is light and tolerable. I get some AM cortisol and upcoming storms affect me but not as much as before. Sleep is good. I look forward to getting lower into the 1's. Be well. Marie.

[Estman]

On 12/28/2022 at 6:56 PM, marie123 said:

Hello Estman. Yes these meds can cause depression. I get low levels of depression from time to time while tapering Mirt.  These drugs can affect sex drive. I take ibuprofen once in a while and I feel okay with it. If I take it continuously like for an injury I get the agitation and feel strange from it. The antibiotic still has to clear your system. Give it a few days. Sometimes I feel apathetic too. I just try to look ahead to finishing the taper and to be positive when I can. After holiday time and winter here it's normal to be a bit down.

 

Your digestion issues is likely from the drug tapering. I have it to. I feel bloated at times and constipated. I know drinking water helps and also some exercise. Even getting up from the sofa and walking around the house helps. Eat some foods with fiber. I try to eat more fruits and vegetables. I eat less too but I want to lose weight. You're tapering Anafril? I'm not familiar with it. Just keep going with your slow taper. Be well. Marie.

Hello  Marie,

n the meantime, I did an endoscopy and it showed numbness in the stomach and the pinky finger. There are no ulcers or abscesses
The doctor thinks it is atrophic gastritis.
It is basically an inflammation of the stomach and intestines, but at the same time there is too little stomach acid.
again there is disgusting nausea and distressing mood, unfortunately you reduced the small dose every 4 days.
All this has come about in the last year because it didn't exist before.
Also my folate and B12 levels are low.
If the stomach acid was high, it could be lowered, but now it's like the opposite situation and can't tolerate spicy things and foods.
I have been on the low fodmap diet for 4 months now.
The worst is nausea and with it weakness.
I tried the digestive enzymes yesterday with every meal, but it didn't get better, rather worse.

I have slept very little for two nights because I feel bad and nauseous. When I touch my stomach, it is very sensitive and irritated.
Sleep is very confusing and disturbing

it should reduce inflammation, but at the same time it should also increase stomach acid, because digestion is not in order.
I also did a SIBO breath test at the doctor, but it was negative.
I am currently taking Slippery's wood  capsules
Don't know what to do.
I am unhappy and hopeless at the moment.

[Bestill]

I thought I would just chime in since I like to do that from time to time.  🤪

 

@Estman what digestive enzymes did you take and how many?  I took some myself right before I started tapering and about 6 months into my tapering before I didn’t need them anymore.  You could be taking too much and with anything start with one meal and give it some time.  Things unfortunately don’t work over night.  I know there are other people I have talked to that had stomach issues during their taper.  This just may be your main symptom as I feel we all get one nasty one that never wants to go away.

 

You May have to try a gaps diet or a low fodmap diet to find some healing.  Look into healing foods for you gut like sweet potatoes, boiled chicken, garlic and more.  Veggies should be cooked for you as it seems the sensitivity of raw veggies could cause issues for you.

 

I always find it’s good to get things checked out but if you weren’t having issues before your medication, it’s safe to say what the cause is.  
 

when my nausea revs up.  I use sea bands, peppermint oil that I rub on my belly.  It also helps with anxiety.  My brain becomes more focused on the tingling sensation more so than the anxiety.  You can also smell rubbing alcohol to help ease the nausea as well.  
 

Try to look for natural solutions to ease your symptoms as much as possible.  And know that this will eventually go away but it may hold on for a bit so treat yourself gentle.  I have had stomach aches since I was a kid and They only Diagnosed me with IBS, aka anxiety.  
 

I know how miserable it can me but try to stay positive because you become what you think.  Your body totally feels what your mind feeds it.  Keep telling yourself this will go away and don’t put focus on it.  Keep busy so the days keep going by and your always one step closer to your healing self.  You will get there.  Dig deep to find that hope.

 

❤️

[Estman]

1 hour ago, Bestill said:

I thought I would just chime in since I like to do that from time to time.  🤪

 

@Estman what digestive enzymes did you take and how many?  I took some myself right before I started tapering and about 6 months into my tapering before I didn’t need them anymore.  You could be taking too much and with anything start with one meal and give it some time.  Things unfortunately don’t work over night.  I know there are other people I have talked to that had stomach issues during their taper.  This just may be your main symptom as I feel we all get one nasty one that never wants to go away.

 

You May have to try a gaps diet or a low fodmap diet to find some healing.  Look into healing foods for you gut like sweet potatoes, boiled chicken, garlic and more.  Veggies should be cooked for you as it seems the sensitivity of raw veggies could cause issues for you.

 

I always find it’s good to get things checked out but if you weren’t having issues before your medication, it’s safe to say what the cause is.  
 

when my nausea revs up.  I use sea bands, peppermint oil that I rub on my belly.  It also helps with anxiety.  My brain becomes more focused on the tingling sensation more so than the anxiety.  You can also smell rubbing alcohol to help ease the nausea as well.  
 

Try to look for natural solutions to ease your symptoms as much as possible.  And know that this will eventually go away but it may hold on for a bit so treat yourself gentle.  I have had stomach aches since I was a kid and They only Diagnosed me with IBS, aka anxiety.  
 

I know how miserable it can me but try to stay positive because you become what you think.  Your body totally feels what your mind feeds it.  Keep telling yourself this will go away and don’t put focus on it.  Keep busy so the days keep going by and your always one step closer to your healing self.  You will get there.  Dig deep to find that hope.

 

❤️

The doctor thinks it could be Atrophic Gastritis or Autoimmune Gastritis because Helicobacter has not been present so far.
I haven't had it before and it seems to be related to the tapering off of the anti-depressant.
Unfortunately, I still don't know exactly whether the main problem is a lack of stomach acid or a lack of digestive enzymes.
I did tests on them yesterday and it will be clear in a couple of days
I made such a Gastropanel with 4 different markers
To determine the digestive enzymes, I took a stool sample from which the elastase 1 enzyme is determined. I still don't know the answer to that.
It is possible that withdrawal causes motility disorders and therefore such symptoms
But at the same time, the stomach and small intestine are visually slightly swollen
At the same time, some thing or food triggers this reaction, because in the meantime there is a perfectly tolerable period and a good appetite, there is just more bloating and gas than usual.
Yesterday I took the digestive enzyme Kreon 25000V/U three times a day

Includes:
Lipasum 25000 units
Amylasum 18000 units
  Proteasum 1000 IU
I then took 1 capsule with a meal
Seems too strong?
The doctor suggested reducing the inflammation first with a proton pump inhibitor and then dealing with possible low stomach acid.
I haven't taken it yet because I'd like to use a natural supplement.
Yesterday I started taking Gastro Comfort with PepZin GI
I don't know if it helps or causes the symptoms
I don't have direct pain, but when I touch my stomach with my hand, it feels very bad and at the same time my head is bad.
Unfortunately, I have only been able to taper off 0.5mg of clomopramine in the last six months
The worst symptom is indigestion and excruciating discomfort

I am always happy to read about your progress and experiences.

I am very grateful

[Bestill]

@Estman

 

 

I used zypan for standard process but I worked with my functional doctor when it came to my dose.  I had no awful side effects from it and it actually helped take my nausea away.

 

The energy I get from your writings is major stress and feeling of anxiousness that can contribute to your stomach issues as well.  I completely understand why you would feel that.  It will be interesting to see what you will find with other testing.  
 

Try to find some calm in your storm.  I guarantee it will help soothe your insides.

 

 

[Estman]

2 hours ago, Bestill said:

@Estman

 

 

I used zypan for standard process but I worked with my functional doctor when it came to my dose.  I had no awful side effects from it and it actually helped take my nausea away.

 

The energy I get from your writings is major stress and feeling of anxiousness that can contribute to your stomach issues as well.  I completely understand why you would feel that.  It will be interesting to see what you will find with other testing.  
 

Try to find some calm in your storm.  I guarantee it will help soothe your insides.

 

 

Thanks for the information, can you get it from Amazon?
I understand that this product contains both gastric acid-pepsin and digestive enzyme?
How did you understood that you have low stomach acid?
Did it come out with blood tests or some other way?
How much of this product do you take, one capsule or more?

[savinggrace]

7 hours ago, Estman said:

Hello  Marie,

n the meantime, I did an endoscopy and it showed numbness in the stomach and the pinky finger. There are no ulcers or abscesses
The doctor thinks it is atrophic gastritis.
It is basically an inflammation of the stomach and intestines, but at the same time there is too little stomach acid.
again there is disgusting nausea and distressing mood, unfortunately you reduced the small dose every 4 days.
All this has come about in the last year because it didn't exist before.
Also my folate and B12 levels are low.
If the stomach acid was high, it could be lowered, but now it's like the opposite situation and can't tolerate spicy things and foods.
I have been on the low fodmap diet for 4 months now.
The worst is nausea and with it weakness.
I tried the digestive enzymes yesterday with every meal, but it didn't get better, rather worse.

I have slept very little for two nights because I feel bad and nauseous. When I touch my stomach, it is very sensitive and irritated.
Sleep is very confusing and disturbing

it should reduce inflammation, but at the same time it should also increase stomach acid, because digestion is not in order.
I also did a SIBO breath test at the doctor, but it was negative.
I am currently taking Slippery's wood  capsules
Don't know what to do.
I am unhappy and hopeless at the moment.

Estman,

 

I have all the symptoms you describe.  I live with them and do the best I can.  Be careful with digestive enzymes.  I need them badly as my pancreas doesn't work well as does no part of my digestive system.  Digestive enzymes throw me into acute withdrawal (I have a chronic, miserable but normal withdrawal all the time).  Digestive enzymes help digest food.  They also digest medications and alter the rate at which they are metabolized.  I have tried them a couple of time (teeny tiny doses) and I feel worsened withdrawal symptoms w/i hours.  I take nothing for my stomach problems because I can't take getting any sicker from worsened withdrawal so I eat what I can, when I can, and I put up with a significant amount of stomach and intestinal pain.  Many people on my B12 forum have atrophic gastritis.  It is very common for people with this condition to have B12 deficiency.   I don't know how low your B12 levels are but mine got life-threatening low.  I delayed supplementing until I couldn't any more.  The B12 competes with my med levels as well, but after almost two years of supplementing my B12 is normal and my digestion is somewhat better....I can't eat a varied diet, but my gut motility is much improved.  My GI doctor refused to treat me any more unless I dealt with my B12 deficiency.  Again, I repeat, B vitamins are stimulating.  I had no choice.  My B12 was under 100 when I started supplementing which is dangerously low (high risk for stroke or heart attack)  If all this came about in the last year, I would be thinking hard about what you changed in the last year.

 

Supplementing B12 while trying to get off meds is not easy.  It took me two years to research and start supplementing.  I self-inject at home every 3 weeks but a smaller dose than is recommended.

 

Grace

[savinggrace]

9 hours ago, Estman said:

The doctor thinks it could be Atrophic Gastritis or Autoimmune Gastritis because Helicobacter has not been present so far.
I haven't had it before and it seems to be related to the tapering off of the anti-depressant.
Unfortunately, I still don't know exactly whether the main problem is a lack of stomach acid or a lack of digestive enzymes.
I did tests on them yesterday and it will be clear in a couple of days
I made such a Gastropanel with 4 different markers
To determine the digestive enzymes, I took a stool sample from which the elastase 1 enzyme is determined. I still don't know the answer to that.
It is possible that withdrawal causes motility disorders and therefore such symptoms
But at the same time, the stomach and small intestine are visually slightly swollen
At the same time, some thing or food triggers this reaction, because in the meantime there is a perfectly tolerable period and a good appetite, there is just more bloating and gas than usual.
Yesterday I took the digestive enzyme Kreon 25000V/U three times a day

Includes:
Lipasum 25000 units
Amylasum 18000 units
  Proteasum 1000 IU
I then took 1 capsule with a meal
Seems too strong?
The doctor suggested reducing the inflammation first with a proton pump inhibitor and then dealing with possible low stomach acid.
I haven't taken it yet because I'd like to use a natural supplement.
Yesterday I started taking Gastro Comfort with PepZin GI
I don't know if it helps or causes the symptoms
I don't have direct pain, but when I touch my stomach with my hand, it feels very bad and at the same time my head is bad.
Unfortunately, I have only been able to taper off 0.5mg of clomopramine in the last six months
The worst symptom is indigestion and excruciating discomfort

I am always happy to read about your progress and experiences.

I am very grateful

Estman,

Kreon is very strong stuff.  Until you know if you have pancreatitis, maybe you should consider some over-the-counter enzymes that are gentler.  If you feel worse since you took the Kreon, I would not be surprised.  As far as proton pump inhibitors, every GI hands those out like candy.  If you don't know if you do or don't have enough acid, taking PPI's could do more harm than good.  Many members on here have been adversely affected by PPI's.

 

I hear you on the stomach/digestive misery.  I have gastroparesis (slow motility) IBS, SIBO and Barrett's esophagus.  Because of my psych drugs, and for other reasons, I do not take any meds for any of my conditions.  I might need them, but I need my sanity more.  The drugs prescribed put me into full withdrawal even when I am not tapering.

 

I am underweight, but after nine years, I am still here.  When my stomach/intestinal pains get bad, I eat very little and I only eat easy to digest things like butternut squash, rice cakes, etc.  If I "rest" a day like this, my GI tends to calm down. I try not to do this too often though.  I highly recommend giving your digestive system a rest though.  Try to eat and then go several hours w/o eating before you eat again and try to go 12 or more hours overnight.  I don't eat gluten, dairy, eggs, raw vegetables, sugar, caffeine, alcohol and other misc foods to which I am allergic.  I do have vitamin deficiencies because of my limited diet, but I have to choose what is bothering me the most.  I eat high fiber food whenever I can but not raw. I can't eat cruciferous vegetables as they compete with the metabolism of my meds.  (induction...similar to warnings about grapefruit juice) I make my own "bread/muffins" out of flax seeds, oats, olive oil water and just a tad of egg.  This has kept meat on my bones and generally I can eat this on my "digestive resting" days for calories.  Meat and veggies are hard for me to digest so if the pain is bad, I avoid them.  You might get away with some fruit (berries) for fiber.  I eat 1/4 apple every day unless it is a high pain day.  If you don't have blood sugar problems, you may even try fasting or intermittent fasting.  Read about the "migrating motor complex". 

 

Estman, less is more when we are tapering.  I had to stop tapering for so many reasons and then I started again and then I had to switch from brand name valium to generic diazepam and I am in full withdrawal now even though I have only crossed over to generic about 20%.  My doc wants me to do this "cross-over" in a month but this generic diazepam is much, much less potent than the brand name.  My doc and I are going to have to duke this out.  I am so sick trying to go as fast as she wants.

 

My point is, Estman, we have a lot of choices.  None of mine are good, but some are better than others.  I choose NOT to take some things that my body nutritionally or medically needs to stay sane.  This "crossover" has emphasized just how sensitive my body is.  BTW, my fecal elastase has been quite low for almost 3 years now, probably longer. I took one teeny tiny dose of Kreon and I said, "I have to get by without this."  I am still here.  I may be underweight, but I am still here and fighting.

 

I think acceptance that "this too shall pass" is key.  I do not think putting more meds and supps into your body are going to serve you well.  I am sorry for how badly you feel.  I understand.  I have severe chronic pain from osteoporosis/arthritis on top of GI problems and little to no sleep.  I live one day at a time.

 

Throw away the calendar and try to stabilize taking just what you have to take and no more.  I know plenty of people with all the conditions you list and despite tons of tests, supplements etc. they are still sick.  It is good you don't have SIBO though.  Count your blessings on that one.

 

Grace

[Estman]

9 hours ago, savinggrace said:

Estman,

Kreon is very strong stuff.  Until you know if you have pancreatitis, maybe you should consider some over-the-counter enzymes that are gentler.  If you feel worse since you took the Kreon, I would not be surprised.  As far as proton pump inhibitors, every GI hands those out like candy.  If you don't know if you do or don't have enough acid, taking PPI's could do more harm than good.  Many members on here have been adversely affected by PPI's.

 

I hear you on the stomach/digestive misery.  I have gastroparesis (slow motility) IBS, SIBO and Barrett's esophagus.  Because of my psych drugs, and for other reasons, I do not take any meds for any of my conditions.  I might need them, but I need my sanity more.  The drugs prescribed put me into full withdrawal even when I am not tapering.

 

I am underweight, but after nine years, I am still here.  When my stomach/intestinal pains get bad, I eat very little and I only eat easy to digest things like butternut squash, rice cakes, etc.  If I "rest" a day like this, my GI tends to calm down. I try not to do this too often though.  I highly recommend giving your digestive system a rest though.  Try to eat and then go several hours w/o eating before you eat again and try to go 12 or more hours overnight.  I don't eat gluten, dairy, eggs, raw vegetables, sugar, caffeine, alcohol and other misc foods to which I am allergic.  I do have vitamin deficiencies because of my limited diet, but I have to choose what is bothering me the most.  I eat high fiber food whenever I can but not raw. I can't eat cruciferous vegetables as they compete with the metabolism of my meds.  (induction...similar to warnings about grapefruit juice) I make my own "bread/muffins" out of flax seeds, oats, olive oil water and just a tad of egg.  This has kept meat on my bones and generally I can eat this on my "digestive resting" days for calories.  Meat and veggies are hard for me to digest so if the pain is bad, I avoid them.  You might get away with some fruit (berries) for fiber.  I eat 1/4 apple every day unless it is a high pain day.  If you don't have blood sugar problems, you may even try fasting or intermittent fasting.  Read about the "migrating motor complex". 

 

Estman, less is more when we are tapering.  I had to stop tapering for so many reasons and then I started again and then I had to switch from brand name valium to generic diazepam and I am in full withdrawal now even though I have only crossed over to generic about 20%.  My doc wants me to do this "cross-over" in a month but this generic diazepam is much, much less potent than the brand name.  My doc and I are going to have to duke this out.  I am so sick trying to go as fast as she wants.

 

My point is, Estman, we have a lot of choices.  None of mine are good, but some are better than others.  I choose NOT to take some things that my body nutritionally or medically needs to stay sane.  This "crossover" has emphasized just how sensitive my body is.  BTW, my fecal elastase has been quite low for almost 3 years now, probably longer. I took one teeny tiny dose of Kreon and I said, "I have to get by without this."  I am still here.  I may be underweight, but I am still here and fighting.

 

I think acceptance that "this too shall pass" is key.  I do not think putting more meds and supps into your body are going to serve you well.  I am sorry for how badly you feel.  I understand.  I have severe chronic pain from osteoporosis/arthritis on top of GI problems and little to no sleep.  I live one day at a time.

 

Throw away the calendar and try to stabilize taking just what you have to take and no more.  I know plenty of people with all the conditions you list and despite tons of tests, supplements etc. they are still sick.  It is good you don't have SIBO though.  Count your blessings on that one.

 

Grace

Many thanks for the thorough answer!
Yes, Gastroparesis is very bad and it seems to me that I have it.
Endoscopy showed that the pyloric diaphragm valve between the stomach and intestine is loose and does not fit properly
If I have fallen asleep on my right side, bile reflux often occurs at night
When this happens, the stomach is often inflamed and the duodenum itself is swollen.
It causes disgusting nausea and feeling very sick.
Dysfunction of the pyloric sphincter seems to be motility-based
Sometimes it's tolerable and then it's really bad.
How do you know if you have low or high stomach acid?

[savinggrace]

14 hours ago, Estman said:

Many thanks for the thorough answer!
Yes, Gastroparesis is very bad and it seems to me that I have it.
Endoscopy showed that the pyloric diaphragm valve between the stomach and intestine is loose and does not fit properly
If I have fallen asleep on my right side, bile reflux often occurs at night
When this happens, the stomach is often inflamed and the duodenum itself is swollen.
It causes disgusting nausea and feeling very sick.
Dysfunction of the pyloric sphincter seems to be motility-based
Sometimes it's tolerable and then it's really bad.
How do you know if you have low or high stomach acid?

I do not know the answer to your question about acid.  Certainly there must be tests for that but I wonder why so many doctors presrcibe  PPI's without running a test.  I do not have reflux.  It seems like if I had too much acid I would.  That said, I eat few high acid foods.  I have Barrett's esophagus so I had to cut out spicy food, coffee, alcohol, tomatoes...the list goes on.

All that said, when I was diagnosed with Barrett's esophagus it was because I was nauseated all the time.  As soon as I cut out the acidic foods, the nausea went away.  You clearly don't have Barrett's as you have recently had an endoscopy.  Have you cut out acidic foods?

 

[Estman]

9 hours ago, savinggrace said:

I do not know the answer to your question about acid.  Certainly there must be tests for that but I wonder why so many doctors presrcibe  PPI's without running a test.  I do not have reflux.  It seems like if I had too much acid I would.  That said, I eat few high acid foods.  I have Barrett's esophagus so I had to cut out spicy food, coffee, alcohol, tomatoes...the list goes on.

All that said, when I was diagnosed with Barrett's esophagus it was because I was nauseated all the time.  As soon as I cut out the acidic foods, the nausea went away.  You clearly don't have Barrett's as you have recently had an endoscopy.  Have you cut out acidic foods?

 

Yes, I have been trying to completely give up acidic foods lately
However, I don't have acid reflux very often.
Usually when I drink too much before bed or fall asleep on my right side
It feels like bile reflux,
In case of gastroparesis, there are often disorders of the pyloric intermuscular valve
Endoscopy showed that it is too loose and does not close enough
it is possible that the bile gets into the stomach at some point and neuralizes the stomach acid or causes inflammation
Then it can also be Atrophic gastritis as the doctor thinks
Then there is too little stomach acid and a cholestatic process.
I have given up dairy products (containing lactose), fatty foods, spicy foods and acidic foods
Unfortunately, nausea and discomfort are slow to disappear.
It is usually better for 1-1.5 hours after eating and then it gets worse again.
I am still waiting for the results of the tests.
My grandmother once had low stomach acid and later stomach cancer (died at age 50) but that was in the 80's
Father once had gastritis, but it passed and now he eats everything, drinks beer and has no problems.

[savinggrace]

10 hours ago, Estman said:

Yes, I have been trying to completely give up acidic foods lately
However, I don't have acid reflux very often.
Usually when I drink too much before bed or fall asleep on my right side
It feels like bile reflux,
In case of gastroparesis, there are often disorders of the pyloric intermuscular valve
Endoscopy showed that it is too loose and does not close enough
it is possible that the bile gets into the stomach at some point and neuralizes the stomach acid or causes inflammation
Then it can also be Atrophic gastritis as the doctor thinks
Then there is too little stomach acid and a cholestatic process.
I have given up dairy products (containing lactose), fatty foods, spicy foods and acidic foods
Unfortunately, nausea and discomfort are slow to disappear.
It is usually better for 1-1.5 hours after eating and then it gets worse again.
I am still waiting for the results of the tests.
My grandmother once had low stomach acid and later stomach cancer (died at age 50) but that was in the 80's
Father once had gastritis, but it passed and now he eats everything, drinks beer and has no problems.

Chronic nausea is the worst. I noticed you said “you have been trying to” give up acidic foods. When I gave it up, I gave it up cold turkey. I used to make a lot of tomato/spice-based meals. Once I realized they were making me ill, I just stopped. I also stopped coffee cold Turkey which was very hard. I don’t eat any citrus either. All I use for seasoning is salt. Seriously, the nausea stopped immediately with these changes. I still get it occasionally but it is usually if I eat too much at once. With gastroparesis I have to eat small meals more often. Also try not to lie down for a while after you eat. It helps digest food faster if you move around. I don’t eat raw veggies and I limit meat consumption as it is just too hard to digest. Do you keep a food journal? I have for years. It really helps connect the dots if I get nausea, stomach pain, constipation, etc. 

 

Wish I could help you more. The first thing my GI told me is he thought I had bile reflux. You may too. PPI’s won’t help that and will likely make you worse. Just my opinion. I know you might know all this, but just in case it helps…

Grace

 

[Hibari]

Hey @marie123

 

Congratulations on getting to 2.3 of Mirt! 

 

Pretty soon you will be stepping into the 1's.  

 

Wishing you the best with your steady taper. 

 

Hibari 

[marie123]

Thanks Hibari. I hope you are doing well in your taper. This cut so far seems like an easy cut. Light aches, a little itchy and some spring allergy stuff is all I notice. Be well. Marie.

 

 

[Hibari]

@marie123

 

I'm doing all right. My twice a month cuts have been manageable.

 

I mainly deal with nausea in the morning and sedation. I feel pretty tired most to the time, which I know is caused by Mirt. 

 

Glad you current cut is an easy one. 

 

Hibari 

[marie123]

Hello every one. I got my yearly bloodwork done and I expected improvements. My A1C is better along with my Vit D levels. They are still not where they are supposed to be. I am confident they will improve since I'm on my health kick. Vit D was low because for the longest time I would hardly leave the house. This is due to the meds and all their effects. The A1C is raised from the Mirt with the weight gain. They are both trending better now.

 

I have not unfortunately been able to budge the high cholesterol number down from 300. It's sky high even with losing 30 pounds and changing how I eat. I believe Mirt is the biggest culprit. It could be the low carb way that I'm eating. Low carb burns the fat and the cholesterol runs into your bloodstream. I hope it's not just how I am naturally.

 

Doc knows I don't want a statin so he recommended niacin. I'll try that for a while. I'm taking a multi vitamin that contains Vit D so that will help. Dehydration is another issue to address. I must drink a lot of water. The best thing I can do is get off Mirt, it's the biggest suspect. I want to get off Mirt first and then retest after a while. I don't want to hurry tapering. I don't think it will go well. This is a problem for me.

 

This cut is pretty good.  I am getting some anger issues but I recognize the drug is doing it. So I ignore it. Be well Marie.