nick1990: citalopram crap

[nick1990]

I have gone ahead and done the switch . 

I will report back this week and let you all know how I’m doing . 

Cheers, Nick . 

[nick1990]

End of day two of the switch, and other than lingering WD normal symptoms and some little waves here and there - nothing yet more noticeable. Had a long day out on the boat today , lots of sunshine and some fish for the next few days! 

[nick1990]

Nearly end of day 4 of the switch , and other than a little headache this morning and some low mood/ depression yesterday, nothing  intense happened. I’ve actually felt pretty much normal today 😊

[Flowers]

Hi Nick. Glad that things are going well with the switch so far. The fishing sounds wonderful and fresh fish to eat even better!

 

Take care.

 

Love from Flowers xxx

[nick1990]

Thank you flowers 🌹 

Love back to you  

 

I have transitioned further with the switch today.

 

As of today i am taking:

 

OLD GENERIC - 0.092 gpw

 

NEW GENERIC - 0.063 gpw

+

0.015 gpw

 

 

So half of a whole tablet of each generic and the fraction of the new generic as well.

 

@eymen23 or @brassmonkey, is my math correct on this one ?

 

when the old generic weighs 0.185 mgpw, and the new generic weighs 0.125 mgpw. 

 

Cheers  

[brassmonkey]

That looks fine to me.  Sounds like everything is going pretty good with the cross taper. How's the foot?

[nick1990]

Thanks Brass , the switch seems to be going quite smoothly now. 

 

The foot, well it was a pain for 2 weeks but I got the biopsy results back saying its benign and don't have to have any further work done on it. 

I've now back in the water and surfing , so I'm happy 😊 

[eymen23]

All sounds well Nick and as Brassmonkey mentioned the maths looks just right for a 22.4mg dose. 
 

Keep up the self-care and remember not to overdo things now you’re feeling a little better. Now might be a good time to get a little more invested in mindfulness again, ahead of any difficulties rather than during. 

[India]

On 10/10/2019 at 6:23 AM, nick1990 said:

Nearly end of day 4 of the switch , and other than a little headache this morning and some low mood/ depression yesterday, nothing  intense happened. I’ve actually felt pretty much normal today 😊

Great news. That boat sounds glorious!!

[nick1990]

Been a week since the last part of the switch. Have had some underlying symptoms for most of the week. Nothing intense, but maybe a slight uptick, especially in regards to decreased mood and some anxiety. 

 

Due for the next part of the switch to 3/4 new generic (plus fragment of new), and 1/4 old. I have enough of the old brand left to wait another week , and have a big weekend coming up , so I figure there’s no point in rushing it. So will most likely resume next Monday , unless I just decide to get on with it and do it tomorrow (which I might ..haha) 

 

i figure that the longer I take for the switch, the longer until I resume tapering , so maybe I should go ahead.

all the best , 

cheers - Nick . 

[nick1990]

On day two now of my further adjustment.

 

Currently taking;

 

0.046 mgpw OLD generic

 

0.094 mgpw NEW generic 

+

0.015 mgpw NEW generic.

 

 

Considering that the OLD generic weighs 0.185 mgpw and the NEW generic weighs 0.126 mgpw, does this math seem correct ? 

 

Im hoping that it is correct and that I'm currently taking 3/4 new generic and 1/4 old generic + the 0.015 mgpw fragment of the new generic.

 

All good @eymen23 and @brassmonkey?

 

As always, thanks in advance ☺️✌️

 

 

Nick.

 

 

[brassmonkey]

Your math is fine but you units of measure are off.

 

old generic should be either 46mgpw or 0.046gpw.  The way you wrote it, 0.046mgpw, is a little teeny tiny bit of powder.

 

Same goes for the new generic either 94mgpw or 0.094gpw. and the additional bit of 15mgpw or 0.015gpw.

 

It's a really easy mixup to make.

[nick1990]

Hey all,

 

Well Yay ! I have completed my switch over to the new generic, and honestly , I’ve noticed no negative change. 

 

In hindsight, I got myself worked up - big time. But once I accepted whatever happens, happens - I felt a bit calmer. And turns out if anything I’m at a slightly higher baseline than before. 

 

Thanks for your support Brass and Eymen and anyone else who chimed in while I was panicking. 

 

Im going to give myself a couple of weeks and then on with resuming tapering - atlast! 

[eymen23]

Nick,

 

Really glad to hear this and it just goes to show how much we can build things up in our head, only for things to be just fine.

 

Equally, we sometimes totally underestimate something or are ignorant to it completely, and it turns out to be awful. 
 

You handled this really well and hopefully this gives you the confidence to keep going! 

[brassmonkey]

I so happy it all went well. Now to get you off of it all together.

[nick1990]

Hey all, time for a little update.

 

Since the switch , I’ve actually been doing pretty well - having the odd wave here and there , but they don’t last much longer than a day or so. And they’re not very intense either . They definitely tend to come up after an active period. 

 

On that note, I was absolutely smashed by an intense migraine yesterday. 

At the same time as feeling on the verge of vomiting and having a bad headache I had some gloomy depression, intense fatigue and some moderate anxiety. It’s always hard to differentiate what’s going on when having a migraine attack. 

 

It definitely didn’t come out of the blue though. Have had 4 weeks of almost non stop activity. I started a new job , which although is only 24 hours a week, I am constantly on my feet and carrying things around. I’ve also been surfing a lot too when I’m not working. 

I have pushed myself , and I think this migraine and ramp up in symptoms is largely a result of that. 

 

Because of the time of year , I’ve held off on tapering for now , will resume in the new year. 

[nick1990]

Hey all,

 

Well its coming out of the busy time for me. Its been nice - although have had some days of intense fatigue in the last few weeks. Even after doing buggger all. Having a little wave at the moment. The symptoms are not intense, theres barely any symptoms at all other than an underlying depression type feeling as well as some frustration/annoyance. I am occasionally having some anxiety, but its minor. Sleep is solid. 

I guess im thinking i should resume tapering. What do you guys think? @brassmonkey As long as i go slow, should it be ok to resume tapering, even with these slight symptoms? Im a little worried about the depression worsening, though this could improve with tapering too i assume, as i have been holding for over a year now. Im definitely far better off symptom wise than i was 8 months ago. Though there is still some minor symptoms present. 

Cheers all , Nick. 

[brassmonkey]

Hey Nick-- glad to hear that thing are going so well and have had a good improvement in your WDnormal lever over 8 months ago.  It sounds like you have made the switch just fine and every thing is stabilizing quite well.  There are always going to be some symptoms, but your's sound quite manageable. I would suggest a 10% Brassmonkey Slide (2.5% a week for four weeks and a two week hold)  You'll probably get an uptick in symptoms on day two or three but they should settle out by day seven.  The underlying depression will probably cycle as you taper, some days worse and some better, hit it with the old AAF.

[nick1990]

Thanks Tom, 

 

Will resume the 1.25% slide as i was doing before. 

 

Have definitely been in a wave the last couple of days. Fully functional, just neuro emotion stuff, some hefty depressed feelings and minor teariness over a situation. 

 

Will likely just wait a week or so and then get back into tapering. About bloody time ! HA! 

 

cheers,

 

Nick. 

[nick1990]

Hey , so still in this wave - it’s mostly neuro depression. Pretty intense at moments. But up and down through the day . This symptom has been coming and going now for over 1 year and although it has eased significantly in intensity and duration, it still makes itself well known during a wave.

 

i understand that there will be some symptoms right throughout the taper, but does it sound like I should still hold off on tapering ? I have been holding for over a year now and am far better off than I was even 6 months ago, though when in a wave , still noticing some mild /moderate symptoms at worst. 

 

@brassmonkey with your experience, do you think it should be ok to slowly resume my 5% BM slide method shortly ? 

[brassmonkey]

Let the wave burn itself out and then go for it.

[nick1990]

Hi all , in need of a bit of assistance. 

 

Im still in this wave (9 days now) and it’s been not much fun at all. The symptoms have come and gone and then come back again.

They consist of low mood, depression, minor anxiety, split second feelings of doom, hopelessness, Ocd thoughts, headaches on and off, fatigue, agitation, frustration and vivid dreams. 

 

I know this is a wave , and although it sounds like a lot of symptoms, I’m still functional , as it’s mostly just mental /emotional. 

 

On an an intensity scale , it’s hard to say - but maybe around 3/10.

I feel I have been gradually stabilising after a slow (5% a month approx) taper from 45mg to 22mg. All was fine for the most part throughout the taper and then I got hit by a bad wave 18 months in and I have held off on tapering for 16 months now. 

 

I have had waves and windows right throughout - periods of complete normalcy for a month or two then back into it. 

 

I want to continue tapering, but am feeling quite emotionally vulnerable at times. 

Hence my concern of making matters worse.

 

I plan on moving to Melbourne in May, to be with my girl. And although it is stressing me out a little (finding a job etc) I know that getting out of New Zealand will help with my low mood. I feel like I’m stuck in limbo at the moment. Going in circles , doing the same old thing, hardly working and being stuck with my family, who I love dearly, but frustrate me immensely.

 

Since I reached 22mg and held, I have felt a lot of things that I never felt throughout my teenage years (whilst on a high dose of citalopram - 60mg) 

Mostly, a lot of existential feelings and a feeling of annoyance and frustration with my parents. Mostly when in a wave and in our home environment ( I’m ok when we’re away somewhere new or on holiday together).

As I have always come to my mother for help with painful things, this has been quite overwhelming, as I don’t feel she has the answers to these frustrations and I’m also dealing with some underlying feelings about them allowing me to go on these drugs in the first place.

Anyway, excuse the ramble. 

 

What im trying to get to , is that I want to go to Melbourne, and unless something dramatic changes environmentally, I AM going to Melbourne. 

 

@Altostrata I need some advice. Brassmonkey says he thinks that tapering is a good idea. I’m skeptical. I just don’t feel as good as I was hoping I would feel by now. And if anything , there was a period where I noticed marked improvements and now I’m feeling a little worse. 

 

Would it be sensible to resume tapering shortly, even at a VERY slow pace considering I’m wanting to go to Melbourne in 4 months time? 

I have held now for 16 months. 

By the time I get settled in there I likely would have not tapered for 2 years after a gradual 5% taper from

45mg to 22mg. Is this normal in WD? Or am I an exceptional case ? 

 

I really appreciate any comments from

anyone on here - I feel like I’m in a weird situation because symptoms are manageable and im functional. I still need some assistance from time to time though.

 

Thank you .

Nick. 

[Altostrata]

Have you skipped any doses recently, taken antibiotics, added other drugs, or drunk alcohol? In what form are you taking 22mg citalopram?

 

Do your symptoms follow any daily pattern?  Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. You can post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right.

 

[nick1990]

Hey @Altostrata

 

I have not skipped any dosages, taken no antibiotics and drunk no alcohol.

 

I am taking Citalopram in tablet form

and did a cross over to a new generic through September/October. This change did not create any symptoms other than the anticipatory anxiety.

 

I did have a busy period over New Years and pushed through feelings of fatigue at times.

 

My symptoms follow no particular pattern. Sometimes they are very mild , other times they have more bite to them. 

 

I am just a little concerned, as this wave is having some moments of intensity. 

 

The only pattern I can see is that most symptoms are emotional. Hopelessness and feelings of “life isn’t worth living” - which by the way are completely out of character for me. 

 

I an practicing mindfulness and that is helping greatly. Although it doesn’t take away the symptoms , it does change the way I react to them. 

 

Maybe i I just need more time to let my nervous system settle. However I assumed that after over 1 year of holding, after a gradual taper - I would be ok to resume. 

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

 

kind regards

Nick. 

 

 

[Altostrata]

Would like to see your daily notes, thanks.

[nick1990]

Here’s yesterday’s @Altostrata 

Will post today’s before bed.

 

Monday 13th Jan 

 

8:40am         Wake up, fatigue 

 

9am.             Breakfast

 

9:30am.        Take Citalopram 22mg

 

10am.            Packing boat for fishing day, 

                        Have a weak coffee.

 

10:45.am.     On boat, feel normal. Hot day

 

1:30-2pm.     Overheated, slight fatigue, 

                        Slight anxious ocd thoughts. 

 

3:30pm.        Back on land - cleaning boat,

                       Carrying stuff - more energy      

                       Once doing stuff 

 

4:45pm.         Lightheaded, maybe slight

                        heatstroke, lying down. Tired.

 

6-7 pm.          Low mood, hopeless, little 

                        split second feelings of terror

                        

8pm.               Eat fish - feeling exhausted 

                         and sad . 

 

10:30pm.       Feel calmer, very sleepy

                         Go to sleep - wake next day 

                         9:30am. 

 

 

 

[nick1990]

Tuesday 14th January

 

 

 

9:00am                          Wake up, feel ok.

 

9:30am                          Take Citalopram 22mg

 

9:50am                          Have breakfast (oats)

 

10-11:30am                  Watch TV, decide to go away for a couple of days.

                                        Painters at house for the week, feel frustrated, lack of space/privacy.

 

12pm -1pm                   Packing up   -   Still feel frustrated.

 

1:30pm - 2:30pm.        Driving to location. Sitting in traffic and feeling a bit panicky/claustrophobic. 

 

2:30pm-  3:30pm         Little moments of terror/panic, split second long, use technique's to calm down and not spiral. 

 

4:15pm                          Arrive at location. Underlying low mood. 

 

7:30 - 8:00pm               Dinner, tired, minor ocd thoughts.

 

8:30 - 9:30pm.              Chill out and watch sunset, beautiful - feel calm.

 

9:30 - 10:30pm             Talk with Girlfriend on phone. Feel stressed afterward as discussing options for when I'm moving over in 4-5 months. 

 

10:45pm                        Sleep.

                                        Wake next morning at 8:20 am

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nick1990]

Wed 15th Jan

 

 

8:30 am                    Wake up, feel anxious whilst lying in bed - mild racing thoughts.

 

9:30 am.                   Take Citalopram 22mg.

 

10:00 am.                 Breakfast 

 

10:30 am.                 Split second feeling of intense panic.

 

11:00 am.                 Decaf coffee.

 

11:30 am.                 Drive to the beach - Feel more joyful and energetic. 

 

12:00 pm.                 Go surfing for 2 hours. Feel pretty normal.

 

2:30 pm.                   Lunch - Slight headache/ neck tension, often brought on from surfing. Mentally ok, very slight OCD thoughts.

 

3:30pm                     Headache still lingering, have a lie down for 20 mins.

 

4:00 - 6:00pm.          Go to beach and read , relax - slight OCD thoughts. Still have headache, somewhat relieved by neck stretches. 

 

6:15 pm.                    Feel lonely, slightly sad. Lasts 15 mins. 

 

7:30 - 9:00 pm          Have delicious dinner. 

 

9:30 pm.                    Feel calm and relaxed. 

 

10:00pm                    Off to sleep soon. 

 

 

 

 

 

[nick1990]

This seems to be a wave that keeps on giving. How kind of it ! 

 

@Altostrata I’ll keep posting notes , but what are your thoughts on what I’ve posted already ? 

 

Honestly, this feels very much like waves and windows - as I’ve had plenty of experience with them in the past. The only difference is the depressed state that comes and goes as well as the split second terror feelings. 

 

Does it seem likely to be waves and windows ? and I just need to wait it out for a while longer before tapering? 

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

How often do you get a headache?

 

How often do you eat each day?

 

What is the content of your "depressed" thoughts in the evening?

[nick1990]

Hey @Altostrata I tend to go through periods where I have no headaches for months on end and then have them on and off for a few months. Physiotherapy has helped and sitting for long periods or surfing tend to worsen them (back and shoulder tension) 

They arose during my taper from 45mg down to 22mg citalopram. I had not had a single real headache before starting to come off citalopram. I used to get them chronically as a child and they stopped around the time I started taking citalopram.

 

I try and eat regularly through the day but often stick to main meals. Headaches sometimes ease after a meal.

 

 

The content of “depressed thoughts” vary, but tend to be feelings of:

 

- “ I can never be like that because of my past” when noticing other people and their interactions.

 

-  A feeling of loneliness

 

-  Hopelessness about the future and coming off these drugs and how long it will take.

 

- Split second thoughts about suicide, but I’m so deeply against it that the thoughts make me feel greater anxiety. 

 

@Altostrata I have had most of these feelings before in waves, even from

a few years ago after a crash which I then stabilised from.

The suicidal thoughts and concern have been happening on and off since I hit a wall with my tapering last September (16 months ago) and stopped tapering. 

 

My waves have got a lot milder since then (This time last year was at least twice as intense). And I have had weeks on end in the past few months where I’ve been feeling almost normal and thought I was  ok to resume tapering. 

 

I was hit with an intense migraine mid December after a few weeks of long physical work days, travel and surfing ( I was pretty exhausted). And I just haven’t felt very good since then. 

 

This latest wave (been in for 10 days now) kind of took me by surprise though. 

 

Thanks all for any insight  

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

Maybe you should set up your desk so you can stand while using your computer.

 

It appears you have habits of mind that are causing those dark thoughts. They're not doing you any good, you might learn to "change the channel" or manage them in other ways. See 

 

[nick1990]

Thank you @Altostrata. However they seem to only appear whilst in a wave - would that be habit of mind or physiological? 

 

From what I have provided with my notes, do you think holding for a while until the waves begin to settle would be a good idea? 

Or do you think it’s likely I’m in tolerance?

[Altostrata]

It looks like when you have a wave, you worry about it. That might make the wave worse.

 

It seems like you're getting little bursts of activation. Are there any triggers? Are you light-sensitive or heat-sensitive?

 

You may get headaches from low blood sugar. You might want to eat a few nuts or have other protein snacks between meals.

 

Please update your signature with significant 2019 events.

[nick1990]

That certainly is true @Altostrata I am very prone to worrying. It is something I am working on  

 

I am not sure whether or not there are any triggers for the little bursts of activation. I will keep an eye on potential triggers e.g Heat & bright lights.

I have also taken your suggestion of regular protein snacks between meals into consideration, it very well could be an influencing factor regarding the headaches. 

 

I will update my signature although there are not many significant events to add to it. 

 

Thank you for your time Alto. 

[nick1990]

Hey @Altostrata

 

I am feeling lost right now and need some guidance. 

I seem to be in an almost constant wave of symptoms of some sort, with the odd day not noticing much , but really up and down through the day . Anxiety, depression, fatigue, headaches, over sleeping, dreams, sore feet, minor eye twitches, occasional shivers. 

 

These are waves that seem to have increased in frequency over the last month or so. I’m so sick and tired of it. I am doing my best to practice acceptance and mindfulness and sit with it. It’s just really making my summer very miserable . Even though symptoms aren’t that intense, they’re so consistent at the moment.

 

It’s the hottest summer on record here and constant glaring sunshine. Could this have something to do with the increase in WD symptoms ? Or is this just part of the WD wave/window process?

 

I was so close to feeling back to stability a couple of months ago and then this.

 

This time 4 years ago I was on 45mg of citalopram and in WD - now after a slow, careful taper and holding for over a year I’m still struggling and at 22mg. 

 

I just need some advice on what to do please. I feel like I’m in limbo right now. 

 

Is it just a matter of waiting out the waves? My nervous system is clearly still not settled.

 

@brassmonkey what do you think ? 

 

Thanks so much , and sorry for the whinging - I’m just hot, frustrated and stuck at home without a job and with my family who frustrate me further. 

 

Cheers

Nick