Mamgu: reducing citalopram

[Fifree]

On 7/25/2023 at 5:44 PM, Mamgu said:

Was kind of hoping I'd be OK to recommence the reductions but I'm still having a grotty time

Sorry to read this Mamgu. If you have a lot going on with work etc, there’s no need to throw tapering into the mix as well. But that’s just where I’m at atm. I fully understand the desire to be OFF asap esp when you’re on such a low dose. 
 

Group meditation sounds amazing. I might look out for something around here. I find I do much better with getting things done if I have deadlines/appointments etc. 
 

hope work improves as well as the WD symptoms 

[littlebird]

On 7/25/2023 at 12:44 AM, Mamgu said:

Was kind of hoping I'd be OK to recommence the reductions but I'm still having a grotty time.

Hello! Am sorry to hear about rough time with meds, but am pleased to find a new word: grotty! Even before looking it up, this is a really evocative one that feels like a good fit for the tapering journey.

 

Hope it's less grotty and more sunny soon! Thank you for the new descriptor.

[Mamgu]

5 hours ago, Fifree said:

Sorry to read this Mamgu. If you have a lot going on with work etc, there’s no need to throw tapering into the mix as well. But that’s just where I’m at atm. I fully understand the desire to be OFF asap esp when you’re on such a low dose. 

 

This is spot on!  I'm learning patience and am OK to go with the flow.  Yes, I'd like to be off the drug, yes I'd like to feel 'normal me' again, yes I'd like to be able to go on those long walks again and yes I feel time is slipping away......BUT, I also want to function and be able to feel joy (which I do, at times), peace (which I do, at times) and contentment (which I do, at times) 🙂  

 

I feel constantly bemused by the roller coaster, for instance last week I felt like giving up and going back to 10mg (like that would help anyway 🤣🙄) but then so quickly, I feel OK.  Not perfect but actually pretty much OK.  Think I'll take another week at least before considering the next drop.

 

5 hours ago, littlebird said:

Hello! Am sorry to hear about rough time with meds, but am pleased to find a new word: grotty! Even before looking it up, this is a really evocative one that feels like a good fit for the tapering journey.

 

Hope it's less grotty and more sunny soon! Thank you for the new descriptor.

 

Hi Littlebird!  I'm glad to have introduced you to a new word, and such a great word at that!  Grotty does seem apt 

 

 

So, coping strategies for the week ahead:

• daily meditations, even if it's 10 minutes, it'll help greatly
• walk just a little further each day
• ignore the HURRY UP demons, this will take as long as it takes
• bake some bread
• drink herbal tea from my newly purchased Harry Potter mug (I'm a sucker for a mug, curious as I don't like to gather 'things' generally but I have an overflowing cup-cupboard!).  The mug reminds me of a special day with my son 🙂
• send out peace vibes to my fellow withdrawees - may your days feel less grotty!

xx

 

 

 

[Mamgu]

Symptoms have settled enough for me to start tapering again, yey!

 

That last wave was intense at times but as always, I got through and I'm in a much better place now.  Current symptoms are generally mild: tinnitus, head pressure, itching over whole body.

 

I've also stopped my counselling sessions as I think I've gained as much as I can from them.  I'm feeling more settled emotionally and less fearful.  In fact, I can't recall feeling this at 'peace with the world and myself' before and when I think of how rough the past couple of months have been, that's pretty good going 🙂.  When I was at the peak of emotional instability a month ago I said to my counsellor that I feel this withdrawal process has robbed me of years of my life.  She wasn't having any of that!  We talked about focussing on what I can do rather than dwelling on what I can't.  This is such a crucial point to success and general happiness I'm putting it here to remind me if I start down that road again, a change of perception will help.

 

 

[Fifree]

20 hours ago, Mamgu said:

Symptoms have settled enough for me to start tapering again, yey!

That's brilliant Mamgu. Very pleased to hear it. Onward and downward for you. Also your therapist sounds like a keeper. I'd love one like that!

[Momiki]

Good luck, Mamgu! I'm glad to hear you are in a good place. Hopefully the tapering will be less intense this time. Do you plan on going a bit slower, or same pace?

[Mamgu]

Thanks Fifree and Momiki 🙂

 

My counsellor is great, she really helped me with positive thought processes.  I feel a renewed vigour for my tapering progress.

 

I'm in two minds about how to proceed.  It seems I can't handle the classic BM route in the same way I can't sustain the 10% drop/4 week wait approach.  I'm not sure if I should keep with a classic BM until things get too much and have a hold, or to have a longer hold between each BM round.  If that makes sense!? I could even split out the 4 successive drops and have a mini break at week 2?  Oh lawks, it's too much to think about 😂

 

 

[Momiki]

Not sure if I get what you mean. I guess there are several parameters you could tweak:

 

- Spread the 10% drop out over a longer period of time. So for example, rather than doing a 2.5% drop every 7 days you could do a 2.5% drop every 10 days, or even 14 days.

- Keep the time between drops the same, but take smaller steps. For example, drop 1% every 7 days, and do that for, I don't know, 6 consecutive weeks and have a small break, to see if symptoms are compounding.

 

Hopefully that would take you from graph 2 to graph 3: (taken from an article by Mark Horowitz and colleague).

 

 

Edit: brain fog apparently still present. Third option, that would bring you to graph 3, would be drop the same amount over the same period of time, but sliding more into it. So most extreme case: drop every day by a tiny amount, instead of that same amount you'd drop in 7 days all in one go.

[Mamgu]

Momiki, you put it much better than I did!  I think I can handle the BM slide much better than 10%-at-a-time drops but clearly not without more holds somewhere along the way.  There's lots of ways to tweak the process and I feel overwhelmed by the options.  I think the irritating thing is we just don't know the best route to take, it's all trial and error and the errors can have massive repercussions if we get it horribly wrong.  I'm already starting to worry about which point to jump off, I mean how nuts is that!?! I've a way to go before then so I'm trying to put that out of mind and consider my next strategy. 

 

Those charts are great, I like the way it helps visualise the impacts - looks like chart 3 is worth a good shout.  But that will mean more maths and spreadsheet work, eeeek.  I've already messed up my dosing on occasion because of the ever-changing volumes of solution to take.  But then again it could mean taking 0.1ml less each day over a defined period......I can see this working....I'll give this some serious consideration if the next round goes squiffy.

 

x 

[Mamgu]

I'm on the third weekly drop of 4 on the BM slide.  All going well, considering we're in the midst of a heat wave.  I don't tolerate the heat at the best of times but when in withdrawal I've found I'm more uncomfortable.

 

That said, I actually went out last night!!  We went into Oxford to see a death metal band; I do like my metal and there isn't much of a scene in Oxford so when a metal band plays there, I feel kind of obliged to go 😆.  It was extremely hot in the venue and coupled with a late night (for me) I'm anticipating a hit of the squeezies but here's hoping I'll be OK 🤞

[Fifree]

Glad to read that the slide is going well Mamgu.

 

Nice that you got out to have some fun too. For someone from the ol' Antipodes the idea of going into Oxford to see a death metal band is highly amusing. I mean, obviously rationally I know Oxford is not all EM Forster and straw boaters, but that's the picture that it conjures up for me y'know? That's despite the fact that I've been there. As a tourist though, you get to maintain your silly notions about places 😆

 

I just realised that EM Forster was actually a Cambridge guy... sigh

[Mamgu]

Yeah, I love how Oxford has this image of freedom to indulge intellectual pursuits, idling away afternoons with punting and drinking Pimms, to write romantic poetry or 'the most well read fantasy fiction of all time' but My Oxford is a car factory, poverty and council estates 😆.  Both are truths of course but I have my truth and 'the others' have theirs.  Sadly, in the last couple of decades the city centre has become a bit of a theme park, literally bus loads of tourists visiting any number of countless tourist shops and the soul of the city has suffered.  That said, it attracted a major American Death Metal band so yey for that!

 

Good news, no impact to the squeezies AND the heat wave has abated, we are now in a typical British Late Summer/Early Autumn dirge of grey skies and drizzle!  Onwards to the completion of the latest BM cycle 🙂

x

[Mamgu]

Last drop was rough, still is rough so I'm having to take a longer hold.  I think I can safely say that things do get more intense at the doses under 1mg....sorry Momiki, I know we had a little conversation about the possibility that it gets easier but, nope, not happening!  Things started off well and I thought it was going to be OK but it's getting tougher now 😞

 

The symptoms I experience have been non-stop since I started the last BM round, usually by now, they'd have settled noticeably.  Also been having some horrible nights where it was hard to get any sleep. It felt as though I had an electric current running through my body, all buzzy and crackling.  At its worse, I also had those weird convulsions and sudden heart beats so intense my legs jolted in reflex.  At least that seems to have calmed down now.

 

I had an hour and a half dental appointment today, a couple of quite deep fillings, nothing major but I'm so sensitive at the moment I'm still reeling from that experience.  I can generally cope with dentist treatment but my jaw kept shaking and I struggled to walk home afterwards.

 

I have had a slightly stressy time with work (4 weeks of working waaaay too many hours) and second-hand car buying (I've no idea what I'm doing) but that's all settled now.  I've told my manager I need to stick to my contracted hours for a while and I'm now the proud owner of Penny The Peugeot 🚗. So, I'm hopeful that I'll feel much better in a couple of weeks.

 

 

[Momiki]

Well, there's bound to be a place below 1 mg that's going to be easier. Might just be at 0.001 mg. 😬 Sorry to hear things are rough! The sensation you experience at night sounds horrible. I hope things will settle soon. Stress from dentists and work certainly aren't helpful!

 

Penny the Peugeot, love the name!

[Mamgu]

On 10/8/2023 at 5:55 PM, Momiki said:

Well, there's bound to be a place below 1 mg that's going to be easier. Might just be at 0.001 mg. 😬 Sorry to hear things are rough! The sensation you experience at night sounds horrible. I hope things will settle soon. Stress from dentists and work certainly aren't helpful!

 

Penny the Peugeot, love the name!

 

Hahaha, I suspect you're right, 0.001mg will be plain sailing!   Also, pleased to report Penny is running well, so far I haven't had to call out the breakdown service 😂

 

Typically, a few days after my last update and I'm feeling a little better.  Still not right but better.  I've decided that when I'm ready to pick things up again, hopefully in a couple of weeks, I'll put an extra hold mid-BM round; so 2 x 2.5% drops then a hold for a couple of weeks then another 2 x 2.5% drops.  See if that soothes the squeezies a bit.

 

 

 

[Fifree]

Glad to hear you're feeling better now Mamgu and that you have a strategy for continuing to move forward. It all feels a bit through-the-looking-glass sometimes... the closer you get to the end, the further away it seems to move... 

[Mamgu]

3 hours ago, Fifree said:

Glad to hear you're feeling better now Mamgu and that you have a strategy for continuing to move forward. It all feels a bit through-the-looking-glass sometimes... the closer you get to the end, the further away it seems to move... 

 

Oh so true!  I seem to be perpetually 'a couple of years left to go' 😂

[Mamgu]

I've been holding since mid-September as life just got in the way - few dramas that life throws at us, nothing horrendous in themselves but added together during withdrawal had made coping difficult: car died, £££s for new car, new car died, £££s to fix new car + dog throwing up all over the house, vets £££s - follow up visit as not recovered, scan - more £££s + shocking cost of dental treatment (what is going on in healthcare/dentistry in this country!!), plus raging toothache following treatment (dying tooth, will need either root canal procedure or extraction, thinking extraction because it's cheaper).  All that on top of extremely busy period at work, overnight stays in hotels - doing daft hours which is impacting on anxiety levels as not looking after myself properly.  In the midst of all this, I went to my nephew's wedding which was a real rollercoaster of an event; lovely day for him and the bride but a heavy time due to absent significant person so there were lots of happy/sad tears. Withdrawal symptoms have been intense at times so holding was the sensible thing to do.

 

So, that's got the 'Oh, woe is me' rant over 😆. In good news, dog is recovered, Penny the Peugeot is fine now and driving well, workload is being managed and upcoming tooth extraction will help with the pain.  I'm on antibiotics at the moment and not sure if that'll be a problem with the withdrawals but I have noticed insomnia creeping back together with the most intrusive tinnitus I've experienced and general disconnect with the world.

 

I'm planning a trip to Wales for the Yule period, it'll be great to spend some quality time with the grandchildren, dear friends and the mountains.  I do love the mountains and the coast in that part of the world is pretty special.  In comparison, the countryside in Oxfordshire is pretty meh.

 

So, with all that going on, I'm sticking at 0.72mg until the new year.  This feels the right thing to do, but also somewhat deflating as I have to manage my impatience and unhelpful thoughts.

 

 

[Momiki]

That wasn't a "woe is me" rant! That was a factual list of events that occurred, no self-pity to be found. Glad to hear most things have improved by now. Luckily I can't tell from experience, but I've been told toothaches are one of the worst kinds of pain. I've also read on this forum that antibiotics can increase withdrawal symptoms. I hope it will pass soon.

 

Mountains sound lovely! My country is as flat as a pancake, so I'm easily impressed by one. The countryside of Oxfordshire has hills, if I'm to believe an online image search, so I'll probably be impressed by that too! Aah, the grass being greener somewhere else..

 

Holding at 0.72 mg sounds like a good end year resolution. I know things feel slow, but it seems you almost halved your dose since December 2022. Sounds like good progress!

[Mamgu]

Yes, it's slow old progress but you're right, nearly half of what I took a year ago isn't to be sniffed at 🙂

 

I suspect the antibiotics have impacted the symptoms, I'm experiencing tightness in my chest to the point I have to consciously draw breath in.  I've had this before but not as bad as it is at the moment. The other usual suspects have also ramped up, tinnitus, fatigue, apathy.... I spent the whole of Saturday watching an entire series of a detective show on the telly.  And I felt no guilt at the seemingly waste of a day, none at all 😂

 

I suppose parts of Oxfordshire are really nice, that's true.  Though the part I live in is near vast fields of monoculture so not interesting, and not particularly good for biodiversity.  However, we do have the odd hill so I should be grateful for that.  Many moons ago a friend and I drove to a music festival in Germany and passed through a small bit of the Netherlands, even stayed in a hotel for a night on the German/Netherlands border....and yes, I do recall thinking it was very flat....or rather, there was a lot of sky 😂

[Mamgu]

I'm feeling ready to pick up the tapering after a short break of 3.5 months and the 1st of January seems a good day to start the next stage!

 

Rambling thoughts warning!!

I'm still not sure how to move forward though, It seems the 4 times 2.5% drops soon ramp up the squeezies so I could make smaller drops or factor in a two month hold between rounds.  I think I live in hope that continuing with the 10% drops every 6 weeks or so will sort itself out into a manageable symptoms but it's not looking likely.  I can't sustain that and find I need longer holds between rounds.

 

Maybe I'll try 1.25% instead of 2.5%, in four successive weeks then a hold for a couple of weeks?  It just drags this whole horrible mess out longer and I'm fed up with it...BUT.....going quicker isn't working for me so I need to suck it up and find a system that allows me to feel I'm making some progress but is more gentle on my nervous system.

 

I have a tooth extraction booked for a couple of weeks and have bought some arnica to help with the recovery.  Apart from that, I don't anticipate any dramas to get in the way.....famous last words 🤣

[Momiki]

Lovely how you characterize 3.5 months as short. That would seem like an eternity when we first started out!

 

I would err on the safe side and go for 1.25%, especially since you already note that 2.5% is giving you problems. It might feel like dragging out the whole thing, but in the long run it will probably prevent longer time needed to restabilize. Or, to add more confusion on what to do: you could still do the 2.5% for four successive weeks, but instead of doing 1 2.5% drop, you could do a 1.25% drop after 3 days and then another after 4 days. To achieve the below thingy:

 

 

 

 

Wishing you a speedy recovery for the upcoming tooth extraction!

[Mamgu]

7 hours ago, Momiki said:

Lovely how you characterize 3.5 months as short. That would seem like an eternity when we first started out!

 

This is sooooo true, I was convinced I'd be done and dusted by the end of 2021 🤣

 

I've decided to try 1.25% drops for 4 successive weeks, so a kind of half Brass Monkey.  I'll see how that goes and maybe, just maybe, I'll be done by the time I retire (10 years to go, not that I'm counting 😆)!

[Mamgu]

So far so good, smaller steps is making things manageable at the moment.  However, I've noticed my focus and attention to detail is suffering lately, my job role is changing from less Employee Relations things (disciplinaries, grievances, performance management...that sort of thing) to data analysis.  Basically less speaking to people and problem solving to more Excel formulae and identifying trends.  I've already messed up a couple of stats due to stupid errors but I'm trying to not beat myself up over that.  Reason for mentioning here is when the squeezies are raging, I tend to beat myself up a lot, so I'm taking this as a positive reaction.

 

Other symptoms are the ever-present tinnitus which is screaming rather than muttering.  I don't worry so much about that though.  I also have that odd feeling of not being able to settle into my body.  I don't know the word for it, but when walking and before crossing a road I'll look both ways for oncoming cars, that action triggers a cascade of disorientation, fear, anxiety and a sense of I'm about to slip over like I'm walking on ice.  I have the same reaction if I look up at the sky.  It's surprising how much we involuntarily look about us as we walk 😆.  I manage this by squeezing my finger nails into the palms of my hands and concentrating on the feel of my feet as they touch and leave the ground.  I think this helps shift the rage of energy from my head.  

[Mamgu]

So the small dose drops worked for a while, then it caught up with me.  On reflection I could have taken a hold at the end of January but I took the decision to keep going.  I had a sort of plan to get to 0.5mg then have a hold.  I've things going on in March and wanted to stabilise for those. I think our brains have evolved to find patterns; and holding at neat numbers like 0.5 appeals.  Daft really as I've been doing this long enough to know better.

 

I had a dreadful couple of nights with insomnia but when I've had it before it doesn't go on for weeks and weeks, like some on this forum, so I'm hopeful it'll settle down soon.  Today was tough, kept experiencing clicks in my head; are they muffled brain zaps?  I kind of think so - extreme head pressure, struggling to focus and I feel cold to my soul, like my bones are frozen.  

 

So, a hold it is, wait until I've settled and start small steps again. Hope I'll be OK in March, my usual pattern hints I'll be OK enough to enjoy the couple of events I've got planned 🤞

[Momiki]

Really great how low you are getting! It will probably still take some time, but have you thought of an exit strategy? What's the lowest you are aiming for before stopping completely?

 

Sorry to hear you've hit a rough patch. I find it quite annoying that with this tapering business you don't realize you're going too fast until it's too late. And then you'll have to wait for things to stabilize again. Good to hear it usually settles down quickly for you. My body seems to be taking a bit longer, I'm still waiting to stabilize from my tapering attempt last January. Things are improving, though. 

 

Have fun with the planned events!

[Mamgu]

On 2/25/2024 at 10:34 AM, Momiki said:

have you thought of an exit strategy? What's the lowest you are aiming for before stopping completely

 

Constantly, borderline obsessively so 😂.  I've looked around this site and can only come up with 'listen to your body' as good advice.  I'm not sure aiming for a specific number is the way to go but, as you say, it'll take some time before I'm ready.  Maybe as I get below 0.1mg it'll become more obvious when I'm ready?  I sometimes feel it's almost a lottery, pick a number, jump off and see what happens....and reinstate if it goes squiffy!  As always, my own head is my worse enemy as sometimes I think I'm ready now, just jump off and get my life back.  Then I have to have a talk with myself and listen to other people's experiences then realise nope, still a way to go yet.

 

On 2/25/2024 at 10:34 AM, Momiki said:

Sorry to hear you've hit a rough patch. I find it quite annoying that with this tapering business you don't realize you're going too fast until it's too late.

 

Typically, not long after I wrote that I perked right up.  That seems to happen, what ever I write here, within a couple of days I'm the opposite.  Perhaps it shows the fluctuating nature of the process...aka waves and windows.  But yes, it's difficult to know the correct rate to drop doses and even when I think I've nailed it, the rate changes anyway.  At least when it's tough I can rationalise it, know it's temporary and wait it out.  I'm getting better at controlling the unhelpful thought spirals, they still happen but I recognise them soon enough to stop.

 

On 2/25/2024 at 10:34 AM, Momiki said:

I'm still waiting to stabilize from my tapering attempt last January. Things are improving, though. 

 

I'm so pleased to read you're improving.  I think you're showing amazing patience and it's only going to do you good in the long run 🙂.  Well done xx

 

 

So, it's March already (where does the time go!!!), the days are getting longer and my garden is calling out for attention.  I've got a trip to London next week, hopefully there won't be train strikes this time, then off to Birmingham a week or so after.  Both trips are to go to gigs and the London one is to see my all-time favourite band, hands down, ever 😀.  I think the squeezies will be OK enough for me to enjoy myself,  it's not fun going to watch metal bands live when you're in full-force withdrawals (I know I've tried it 😬).

 

 

[Mamgu]

So I survived Metal March (3 gigs in the end, not bad for someone who rarely goes out these days 😂).  In terms of the squeezies, it was all OK.  I noted there's a certain tone at live music gigs that when played, drives through me and it feels as though I'm being knocked over.  I never had anything like that before withdrawing from Citalopram so totally putting it down to that. It's fleeting and I rationalise the experience, before long I'm back in the zone 🙂

 

I feel OK to continue the tapering now so here goes......

[Mamgu]

A mini celebration is due, now down to under 0.5mg, woohoo 😃

[SilverLinings]

Congratulations, that's a huge accomplishment! You're an inspiration!

[Mamgu]

Awwwe thanks SilverLinings 🙂  Taking a looooong time but getting there.  As you will too xx

[PattyCatty]

Congratulations @Mamgu on them 0.5 millstone

[Mamgu]

Thanks PattyCatty 🙂  Slowly getting there!  I see you've got things lined up nicely for your taper 😃 Good luck! x

[Mamgu]

Slowly, slowly chipping away - all in the right direction.  But new symptoms popping up, how strange!  Curiously, the dominant symptoms I had at the start of this have lessened, even gone.  But now I'm more frequently experiencing:

• disturbed sleep, frequently waking up after nightmares.
• pressure on my chest, at times I'm consciously drawing in breath but it feels as though I'm still not getting enough oxygen in.
• constant urge to swallow.
• tight sensation in my diaphragm. 
• feels as though I've a lump in the left hand side of my throat but when I rub the area, it doesn't seem to be swollen.
• indigestion / burping frequently.

Honestly, it's the gift that keeps on giving!

 

On the other hand, the positives include:

• lessened brain fog and improved cognitive function.
• more inclined to go out and socialise.
• been doing this long enough to stop the health anxiety in its tracks and understand it's 'just another symptom'.
• engaging in more healthy and positive habits - meditation classes, gentle exercise, reducing consumption of ultra processed foods, gaining a better perspective (not so much catastrophising).
• and I think I'm finding the old Mamgu again...she's breaking through the fug 🙂

So, it's not all bad, there is some really good progress and I find the immediate withdrawal symptoms flare up quickly following a dose drop but then seem to settle much more quickly than they used to.  This might be due to a lower drop strategy, who knows!