Johni: I want to break free

[Johni]

Hi. I am Attila from Hungary!

This will be my question: Shall i wait for improvement or can i start to decrease the doses?

Sorry for my bad english.

[Altostrata]

Welcome, Johni.

 

We need more information. Why are you taking Cirpralex? What effect has it had on you?

 

This is a site for going off drugs. If you think you need an antidepressant, we can't give you any recommendations.

[Johni]

I got it for anxiety in 2011. I had 2 panic attacks then I left with anxiety. For the last 5-6 years I was asymptomatic. I am 32 years old and I would like to try without any medicine. I started to reduce the dose to 7.5 mg in May and then decrease to 5 mg in June. On 26th June I turned completely. I couldn't sleep and fell into deep depression. I immediately went back to 10 mg of dose.
I recovered my sleep 2 weeks later. For the time being, most of the time, it was only dislike and despiritedness

[Carmie]

Hi Attila,

 

Welcome to SA from me too. 

 

So you went back to 10mg of Cipralex at the end of June? 

 

Your taper attempts in the past were too fast,  it is recommended to taper by no more than 10% a month. 

 

Are you on any other medications or supplements?

 

What symptoms do you have? I know you said that you don’t speak English very well, but when you said that you have “ dislike and despiritedness,” did you mean you’re feeling a bit anxious and depressed? If your symptoms aren’t too bad it would be okay to taper, but as I mentioned, by no more than 10% a month. You can get off this medication, you just have to go very slow. 

 

Please let us know how you’re doing. 

 

Sending hugs🤗

 

[Johni]

My current problem is that I have no desire for anything. I do not take any other medicine. I have bad thoughts. My question is, do I have to wait for improvement or start reducing? Depression was cruel, I have never thought a medicine could do that

[Carmie]

Hi again Attila, 

 

You sound like you have bad anhedonia, a lot of people have that when going through withdrawals. Most people also get anxiety, it’s chemically induced. When tapering from these medications we will always have symptoms, the degree of the symptoms is what we need to look at before we taper. You are still going through withdrawals from all the changes you made this year. 

 

What did you mean when you said you had bad thoughts? 

 

Because you made quite a few changes in May and June maybe it might be an idea to wait a little bit longer. I’ve had holds for three months and more when I’ve done big changes. If it was me, I would wait at least a few more weeks and see how you feel. 

 

Let us know how you’re doing💚

[Johni]

Hi Carmie,
Thanks for your respond. 
Then I'll wait a few more weeks. There are things I can't get out of my head. But beside these, I'm fine. I am working, driving, cycling. If something changes I will check in. Thanks for everything.

[Carmie]

 

You’re welcome Attila, 

 

Let us know when you decide to taper, and how you’re continuing to do.💚

[Johni]

😍

[composter]

Hey Attila, you are absolutely in the proper place to learn about safe and effective tapering.

 

My story is very similar to yours. Just one drug started at 10 mg, a cut to 5 mg for a month and then a cut to 2.5 mg for two weeks and ended up in severe withdrawal. I also reinstated back to my original 10 mg and it took me about 8 months to stabilize. I would recommend holding until most symptoms are gone. I agree it is deeply troubling that a medication would cause depression and violent thoughts, this definitely happened to me during my withdrawal and sometimes during waves. But you will get through it. Humans are resilient and the body is equipped with the innate ability to heal.

 

Stabilizing may take a few months or even a full year. Patience is key.

[Altostrata]

Johni, how have your symptoms changed since early July? Which are better, which are worse?

[Johni]

Hi Alto,
The physical symptoms are all gone and I can sleep. Only the depression that remained and the bad thoughts.

[Johni]

Yesterday was the worst day of depression so far. And I'm fine today. I don't understand that much. There are no bad thoughts today and my mood is quite good

[ChessieCat]

It's called windows and waves.

 

Here's some additional information which might help you to understand what is happening:

 

Recovery isn't linear it happens in a Windows and Waves Pattern

 

Withdrawal Normal Description

When we take a psychiatric drug, we are adding chemical/s to the brain.  The brain then has to change to adapt to getting the chemical/s.  It might have to change something to do with A and then once that change has been made it affects B so another change has to be made and so on down the line.  It is a chain reaction, a domino effect.

 

The same thing happens when we take the drug away.  That's why it's possible to experience such a vast array of withdrawal symptoms, and they can change, and be of different intensity.

 

are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take

 

These explain it really well:

 

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

On 8/31/2011 at 5:28 AM, Rhiannon said:

When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay. When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse. SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long.

 

AND

 

On 12/4/2015 at 2:41 AM, apace41 said:

Basically- you have a building where the MAJOR steel structures are trying to be rebuilt at different times - ALL while people are coming and going in the building and attempting to work.

It would be like if the World Trade Center Towers hadn't completely fallen - but had crumbled inside in different places.. Imagine if you were trying to rebuild the tower - WHILE people were coming and going and trying to work in the building!  You'd have to set up a temporary elevator - but when you needed to fix part of that area, you'd have to tear down that elevator and set up a temporary elevator somewhere else. And so on. You'd have to build, work around, then tear down, then build again, then work around, then build... ALL while people are coming and going, ALL while the furniture is being replaced, ALL while the walls are getting repainted... ALL while life is going on INSIDE the building. No doubt it would be chaotic. That is EXACTLY what is happening with windows and waves.  The windows are where the body has "got it right" for a day or so - but then the building shifts and the brain works on something else - and it's chaos again while another temporary pathway is set up to reroute function until repairs are made.  

 

[Johni]

Hi chessiecat
What do you think I should wait for everything to settle or even start to drop in October.
Thanks for the answer

[ChessieCat]

It is generally better to hold for longer than to reduce too soon.  And when you do make a reduction it might be a good idea to do a 5% reduction (instead of 10%) for the first one to make sure that you have stabilised.

 

[Carmie]

Hi Attila, 

 

I totally agree with ChessieCat. You’ve made a lot of changes and I would continue to wait a while longer before you taper again. I know you feel impatient and want to start to do something, but if you taper too soon you may end up going through horrific waves. You won’t get any further ahead in your tapering, because then you might have to wait even longer before you stabilise. 

 

It’s a good idea to try tapering by 5% too to see how you go once you start tapering. I can only taper by around 4% myself now. 

 

Take care, sending hugs🤗

[Johni]

Hello, I had thought to make a report for you. Unfortunately, the situation has not changed very much. My mood is zero. Perhaps the depression had improved a bit, or at least the daily suicidal thoughts had disappeared. I guess, with this reluctance and no mood to nothing you  really can't get things started, do you?

[ChessieCat]

Even though it doesn't feel like it, holding IS doing sometrhing.  It is giving your brain time to adjust to the changes you have made.

 

WDnormal (withdrawal normal)

[Johni]

Hello! I don't know how normal it is that anxiety really decreased. But this hellish depression or I don't know what to say for this, does'nt go away. Is this normal at this time?

[Johni]

Hi there.
I feel depression is gone. Daily thoughts of suicide for 3 weeks have passed day by day. My anxiety returned, that was my basic problem. But I think it was not disappeared because of the medicine years ago. So I'm trying to get on with things positively. I wait 1-2 weeks and the reduction can start 😊. Hello

[Johni]

IHi!
It was more than 3 months since I returned to the full dose. My mood is still wavering. I was fine last week, but this week the depression mood returned. Is that a wave window thing?
Thanks

[Johni]

Szia.

Tudom, hogy javasolja, érdeklődjön egy ideig tartanánként. Valóban az összes fizikai tünetem eltűnt. Csak hangulati ingadozások maradtak fenn. Várnom kell, amíg minden rendezhetővé válik, vagy megpróbálhatom egy kicsit csökkenteni?

Köszönet mindenért. 😊

[Johni]

Helló, sajnos nem kaptam sok választ a közelmúltban. Az a kérdésem, hogy a teljes adag helyreállítása óta a fizikai tünetek teljesen eltűntek, de egyes mentális tünetek még súlyosbodtak. Érdemes kicsit csökkenteni az adagot, hogy kiderüljön-e a mentális tünetek enyhülése, vagy csak várjon? Nem tudom, mi lenne jó. Köszönöm a válaszokat.

[composter]

Hi @Johni yes it certainly sounds like you might be going through a wave. You returned to your original dose three months ago? I would continue to hold on this dose until things stabilize. If I were you, I would wait at least three more months (6 months or even 8-10 months) before starting your taper.

 

My story is very similar to yours, as I’ve said before. I stabilized after 8 months after going through horrible withdrawal. I had waves at the 1 month and 3 month mark, and both of those waves lasted around 2 weeks with terrible anxiety/depression/crying and extreme insomnia and head symptoms. Hold on, don’t make any changes to your dose; it will pass. You are in the the storm right now but the clouds will part and it will pass. It always does.

[Johni]

1 órával ezelőtt a zeneszerző azt mondta:

Helló, @Johni  igen, minden bizonnyal úgy hangzik, mint egy egyedülálló test. Három hónappal később visszatért az eredeti adaghoz? Folytatnám ezt az adagot, amíg a dolgok stabilizálódnak. Ha én lennék, várnék még három hónapot (6 hónap vagy akár 8-10 hónap), mielőtt elkezdenék a kúposságot.

 

A történetem nagyon hasonlít egy tiédhez, ahogy már mondtam. 8 hónap után stabilizáltam, miután szörnyű visszavonulást hajtottam meg. Hullámom volt az 1 hónapos és egy 3 hónapos határérték, és az elméleti hullámok körülbelül 2 hétig tartott, szörnyű szorongással / depresszióval / sírással, szélsőséges állatilansággal és fejtünetekkel készültek. Várjon, ne változtassa meg az adagot; el fog múlni. Jelenleg a viharban vagy a felhők eloszlanak, és az elmúlik. Mindig így van.

Hello. Thanks for the reply. Then I'll keep it still. How are you? How are you doing with the reduction now?
Hi Attila

[composter]

Wow @Johni the translation seems to work quite well. It is amazing I am speaking with someone in Hungary, and I’m here in California! Curious as to how you were even able to find this website in the first place?

 

I have translated your earlier messages to English using Google Translate (for others to see):

 

Quote

Hello.
I know you advise me to inquire for a while. Indeed, all my physical symptoms have disappeared. Only mood swings remained. Do I have to wait until everything gets settled or can I try to reduce it a bit?
Thanks for everything

 

Quote

Hi, unfortunately I haven't received many answers lately. My question is that since the full dose has been restored, the physical symptoms have completely disappeared, but some mental symptoms have worsened. Do you need to reduce the dose slightly to see if your mental symptoms are relieved or just wait? I don't know what would be good. Thank you for your answers.

 

Can you describe your mood swings (hangulatingadozás) in more detail? I would hold until you have no more mood swings.

 

I’m doing very well, thank you. I stabilized after 8 months and I have been proceeding with about a 5% reduction per month. Each reduction I have some increase in my symptoms, but it levels out after 5 days or so. This is consistent with everyone else’s experience on this site. 

 

Has there been a pattern to your waves? My waves have lasted 2 weeks at a time and were usually more emotional than physical in nature.

[Johni]

At first, I had mostly physical symptoms. Then, as the physical symptoms faded, my mental symptoms intensified. I had 4 weeks with constant thoughts of suicide. Sometimes I woke up like that in the morning. Then I had 1 week which was pretty good and after that, there was such a depressing time again. Actually, I don't in the mood too much, I wouldn't like to do anything. Unfortunately, I didn't keep a diary of my symptoms, but I think it's time to start.

[Johni]

I write in English, but according to this, my phone translates automatically

Sorry, I don't know

[composter]

Yes @Johni keeping a log of your symptoms and your pattern can be very helpful. As this site suggests, writing it down on paper or in a notebook is probably the best way. Search this website for something called a “Glenmullen” checklist. I made my own spreadsheet based off of that and it was very helpful. We all have our unique pattern of symptoms and it is important to play an active role in your health by tracking as needed. 

 

Sorry you are feeling apathy and depression right now. It will pass.

[Johni]

 Hello. Thanks for your answer. Thank goodness the thoughts of suicide have disappeared. However, I feel that this depression is enhanced by the drug. I regret having returned to the full dose. In fact, it might have been enough for a little raise. I'm constantly tired what is really difficult to bear. How are you?

[Johni]

@composter

[Johni]

Hello everybody.I've decided to try a 5% cut as a probe.

[Gridley]

On 10/16/2019 at 2:17 AM, composter said:

Search this website for something called a “Glenmullen” checklist. I made my own spreadsheet based off of that and it was very helpful.

 

Glenmullen’s withdrawal symptom list.

[Johni]

thx @Gridley

[composter]

Hey @Johni how are you doing? Did you make the 5% reduction?