KiwiSue: Effexor withdrawal, Prozac

[KiwiSue]

Hi! I have been going through withdrawal for 14 months now, after my doctor told me to simply stop taking Effexor after being at 37.5mg for 3 months. All hell broke loose and that was when I found out there is a thing called Withdrawal from anti-depressants. Through the painful weeks that followed I ended up on Prozac, as apparently it's easier to withdraw from than Effexor. After 5 months I stabilised on 20mg Prozac. I am now on 10mg. It has been an extremely bumpy ride as till now I haven't had anyone to guide me through the process. It's been really enlightening reading some of the posts in this forum, and I know I need to be more prepared for the journey that lies ahead. I'm particularly concerned about getting my doctor on board with such a slow taper! I saw a document referred to as "Bliss Johns paper" mentioned in a couple of posts. Where do I get such a resource?

[Sassenach]

Hello Sue   and welcome to SA.

 

This site is run entirely by volunteer Administrators and Moderators, all have been through or going through withdrawal.

There are no commercial interests or influences  involved .

 

I am sorry you are having such a rough time but you are now in the right place.

 

The site is currently extremely busy so please ensure you answer any requests from staff fully.

As you are already in the process of tapering I would be grateful if you could use the following link to complete your drug signature ( history ).

This will allow us to quickly evaluate your current situation and advise you on the best way forward.

lease add a signature.  Include drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements in the last 12-24 months. Also include supplements. This will help us give you the most accurate advice we can. 

• Any drugs and supplements prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years. 
• Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago) 
• Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016. 
• Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses. 
• A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs. 
• This is a direct link to your signature:  Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

We need to establish whether your current taper is too fast, please see;

why-taper-by-10-of-my-dosage/

the-rule-of-3kis-keep-it-simple-keep-it-slow-keep-it-stable/

the-windows-and-waves-pattern-of-stabilization/

 

On 11/17/2019 at 5:27 AM, KiwiSue said:

I ended up on Prozac, as apparently it's easier to withdraw from than Effexor.

This is correct and appears to be the only thing your doc has got right.

On 11/17/2019 at 5:27 AM, KiwiSue said:

I'm particularly concerned about getting my doctor on board with such a slow taper!

Doctors and psychs no little or nothing about withdrawal from these drugs.

It is up to you whether you try and get s/he on board, it is usually easier to just agree and use them for prescriptions.

 

As soon as we have the requested info we can advise you.

As soon as we recieve the drugs info. we can assess your situation.

In the meantime DO NOT MAKE ANY CHANGE TO YOUR CURRENT MEDS please.

Please feel free to browse the site, it is a wealth of info.

Other members threads will give you an insight and the opportunity to share experiences.

 

Again welcome.

 

Sassenach

[KiwiSue]

On 11/19/2019 at 8:05 AM, Sassenach said:

Hello Sue   and welcome to SA.

 

This site is run entirely by volunteer Administrators and Moderators, all have been through or going through withdrawal.

There are no commercial interests or influences  involved .

 

I am sorry you are having such a rough time but you are now in the right place.

 

The site is currently extremely busy so please ensure you answer any requests from staff fully.

As you are already in the process of tapering I would be grateful if you could use the following link to complete your drug signature ( history ).

This will allow us to quickly evaluate your current situation and advise you on the best way forward.

lease add a signature.  Include drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements in the last 12-24 months. Also include supplements. This will help us give you the most accurate advice we can. 

• Any drugs and supplements prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years. 
• Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago) 
• Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016. 
• Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses. 
• A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs. 
• This is a direct link to your signature:  Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

We need to establish whether your current taper is too fast, please see;

why-taper-by-10-of-my-dosage/

the-rule-of-3kis-keep-it-simple-keep-it-slow-keep-it-stable/

the-windows-and-waves-pattern-of-stabilization/

 

This is correct and appears to be the only thing your doc has got right.

Doctors and psychs no little or nothing about withdrawal from these drugs.

It is up to you whether you try and get s/he on board, it is usually easier to just agree and use them for prescriptions.

 

As soon as we have the requested info we can advise you.

As soon as we recieve the drugs info. we can assess your situation.

In the meantime DO NOT MAKE ANY CHANGE TO YOUR CURRENT MEDS please.

Please feel free to browse the site, it is a wealth of info.

Other members threads will give you an insight and the opportunity to share experiences.

 

Again welcome.

 

Sassenach

Thank you so much Sassenach! It feels good to be amongst folk who "get it". 

KiwiSue

[KiwiSue]

I have completed my drug signature now.

Thank you.

KiwiSue

[Sassenach]

Hi Sue

 

One month since your last dose change.

How are you feeling?

 

Sass

[KiwiSue]

Hi Sass

Feeling so much better now. The waves are much shorter and less intense.

In this last week I'm feeling close to stabilised.

Thank you!
KiwiSue

[LarryS]

@KiwiSue  Hi, welcome and do lots of reading on this site.  After reading "Read This First" go to "Forums" for more information.

I'm tapering from Venlafaxine (Effexor) myself.  Been considering going to prozac since I've gotten as low as 37.5 mg  but have recently up dosed a small amount.  I can learn something from everyone.  Will be interested to see what you say about your journey on prozac.

Keep it Simple;  Keep it Slow, Keep it Stable.  

[Sassenach]

Hi Sue.

 

Good news, your patience is being rewarded.

Sit tight on on 10mgs until you feel little or no deviation in symptoms.

At least you are now on one of the easier drugs to taper when you are ready.

Please contact us when the time comes so we can help you get it right this time

 

Sass

[KiwiSue]

Thank you Sass! Very happy to have found the help I need

[KiwiSue]

@LarryS thank you for your welcome!

I believe Prozac did help me get Venlafaxine out of my system.. took roughly 2 and a half months to stabilise but looking back it was worth it. Prozac hasn't been fun so far.. but I'm looking fwd to more success going forward with the help of SA. Learning to be more patient in the process!

[Sassenach]

Hi Sue

 

We do recommend fish oil and magnesium.

We also recognise that properly targeted supplements can help diagnosed conditions.

Unfortunately supplements are unregulated so there are no guarantees of quality or content.

We do not like multivitamins as they are untargeted.

The problem with them is because their quality and content can be questionable which leads to problems with interractions.

However if you find something that works for you we have no problem with you saying so on your thread, as long as you do not make recommendations.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

Sass

[LarryS]

Well I've learned something already, but from Sass, didn't know multi-vitamins where not recommended.  

[KiwiSue]

Thanks for clarifying that Sass. The supplements I take are of a very high standard I know I can trust.

[KiwiSue]

How is everyone doing? Me... not so good

We had family visit for Christmas and New Year.. they were non-threatening and kind, but I felt the wave approaching even before they left, with "cortisol mornings" and rising inner turmoil & tension caused by pervasive thoughts. Didn't help that I was trying to hold it together till they left. Now I'm in the thick of it, holding on for dear life.

Haven't changed anything - still holding 10mg. 

 

[mstimc]

Hi Kiwi

I can't count the number of people I know who share the holiday-stress syndrome and its aftermath.   It hit me harder than normal this year because it was the first year my wife and I are on our own, 7,000 miles from friends and family.  Ironically, it was being around the same people who used to stress me out!  My theory is that the holidays make those of us who suffer from anxiety and/or depression feel especially"different" from how "normal" celebrate the holidays.  I think you'll find your footing over the next few weeks as things settle back into the post-holiday routine.  In the meantime, practice some self-care and cut yourself some slack for the new year!😁

[KiwiSue]

Thank you Tim.. I appreciate your reply

 

[KiwiSue]

Update: Been holding 10mg for 3 months now and actually seem to be getting worse - anxiety like I never remember having experienced before.. thoughts outta control. Can't help wondering how much is prozac responsible for these symptoms?? In desperation I'm starting to consider switching to something else - hopefully something that is also relatively easy to withdraw from. Seems like it could be the only way to find out if it is prozac causing me to feel this way? Appreciate your thoughts SA community.

[nick1990]

Fellow Kiwi. Hi Sue. You have made soooooo many changes in recent months/ years , it is really no surprise you’re feeling such symptoms. 

 

You need to ask advice from a moderator on what to do. My guess would be to hold on your current dose for a very good long while until things slowly settle . 

Making more changes are not going to fix this. Sometimes we just need to be patient and feel the discomfort, knowing that eventually it will ease away. 

[KiwiSue]

Hello @nick1990

Thank you for your reply - good to hear from another Kiwi! How do I contact a moderator for advice?

Thank you for your comments - I find that really helpful

[nick1990]

If you do an “at” symbol , and then type the name of a moderator, it will notify that person. 

 

@Altostrata, the site founder will be the best person to either help you or she will notify another moderator that you are in need of some assistance.

 

Take care , 

Nick . 

 

 

[KiwiSue]

Thank you again Nick!

 

[KiwiSue]

Hi @nick1990 to date I haven't heard back from an admin
Meanwhile, I have been getting steadily worse on the dose of Prozac I'm on. I don't want to increase the dose because I have tried that before and felt much worse for the increase. I know I'm not supposed to taper till I'm stable.. but I feel much further away now than ever from stabilising! In desperation I went back to my doctor today. She wants to take me off Prozac over the next 10 days and put me on 50mg Sertraline. I agreed feeling like I didn't have a choice.. but after reading up on here and on the rxisk.org website I'm extremely nervous that this would not be a wise thing to do. Please, I'm desperate for guidance!

[Andie]

Hi There

 

I switched from Pristiq to Prozac and I have found an increase in anxiety. The Prozac seems much more stimulating than Effexor and Pristiq. 

[KiwiSue]

Hi @Andie Thank you for your reply. That's interesting what you are experiencing. I haven't experienced any benefits from being on Prozac since I switched from Effexor and really believe I could be experiencing adverse reactions to it??

[Andie]

For me, I do feel Prozac has more side effects. IF you do decide to switch, make sure you don’t Change over to too high a  dose of the new medication. 
 

The best advice is to hold and come off the medication you are currently taking, but I know it’s not always possible. 
 

One if the Mods would be the best to advise you. 
 

 

[Andie]

On 5/9/2018 at 5:35 AM, Altostrata said:

J Affect Disord. 2015 Jul 15;180:179-84. doi: 10.1016/j.jad.2015.03.021. Epub 2015 Mar 31.

Dose equivalents of antidepressants: Evidence-based recommendations from randomized controlled trials.

Hayasaka Y1, Purgato M2, Magni LR3, Ogawa Y1, Takeshima N1, Cipriani A4, Barbui C2, Leucht S5, Furukawa TA1.

 

Abstract at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25911132 Free full text at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165032715001512

 

BACKGROUND:

Dose equivalence of antidepressants is critically important for clinical practice and for research. There are several methods to define and calculate dose equivalence but for antidepressants, only daily defined dose and consensus methods have been applied to date. The purpose of the present study is to examine dose equivalence of antidepressants by a less arbitrary and more systematic method.

 

METHODS:

We used data from all randomized, double-blind, flexible-dose trials comparing fluoxetine or paroxetine as standard drugs with any other active antidepressants as monotherapy in the acute phase treatment of unipolar depression. We calculated the ratio of the mean doses for each study and weighted it by the total sample size to find the weighted mean ratio for each drug, which was then used to define the drug׳s dosage equivalent to fluoxetine 40mg/d.

 

RESULTS:

We included 83 studies (14 131 participants). In the primary analysis, fluoxetine 40mg/day was equivalent to paroxetine dosage of 34.0mg/day, agomelatine 53.2mg/day, amitriptyline, 122.3mg/day, bupropion 348.5mg/day, clomipramine 116.1mg/day, desipramine 196.3mg/day, dothiepin 154.8mg/day, doxepin 140.1mg/day, escitalopram 18.0mg/day, fluvoxamine 143.3mg/day, imipramine 137.2mg/day, lofepramine 250.2mg/day, maprotiline 118.0mg/day, mianserin, 101.1mg/day, mirtazapine 50.9mg/day, moclobemide 575.2mg/day, nefazodone 535.2mg/day, nortriptyline 100.9mg/day, reboxetine 11.5mg/day, sertraline 98.5mg/day, trazodone 401.4mg/day, and venlafaxine 149.4mg/day. Sensitivity analyses corroborated the results except for doxepin.

 

LIMITATIONS:

The number of studies for some drugs was small. The current method assumes dose response relationship of antidepressants.

 

CONCLUSIONS:

Our findings can be useful for clinicians when they switch antidepressants and for researchers when they compare various antidepressants in their research.

Have you seen this? 

[KiwiSue]

No! Quite surprising!!

[Andie]

10 minutes ago, KiwiSue said:

No! Quite surprising!!

Yes, don’t overdo the dosage! 

[nick1990]

Hi Sue

 

Sorry for the delayed response. I will contact some administrators and let them know you are in need of help .

 

I wouldn’t make any changes right now. Do not follow your doctors guidelines until you have heard from an Administrator.

 

Just hold on for now - you’ll be ok.

 

Nick . 

[Altostrata]

Hello, KiwiSue.

 

Yes, you have a choice.

 

What have been your drug changes since November? You were doing better then.

 

Are you taking any other drugs? When did you add them? Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. You can post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right.

 

 

[KiwiSue]

Andy, I see you & I are almost on the same dose of Prozac! How are you measuring 9.5mg?

 

[KiwiSue]

Hi @Altostrata thank you for your response.

I haven't changed my dose at all since 22nd Oct.. been holding at 10mg. To clarify, when I said "I know increasing my dose doesn't work, because I've tried that already" I was referring to when I increased it to 20mg in July. I'm not taking any other drugs other than last week I took 0.5mg Lorazepam 2 days in a row - only did that because I desperately needed to quiet my thoughts.. but I don't usually do that because I don't like the way they make me feel and it only helps for a couple of hours. 
I have been going to counselling however, and wondered if that could be challenging my CNS as intrusive memories come up??
Strangely enough, even though the doctor's advice stressed me out, I have been feeling better since yesterday.. somehow revisiting my choice & commitment to withdrawing from ADs seems to have pulled me out of the wave!

[Andie]

2 hours ago, KiwiSue said:

Andy, I see you & I are almost on the same dose of Prozac! How are you measuring 9.5mg?

 

 

Hello 

 

I am using a Prozac suspension. I just draw up what I need in a syringe. 

[KiwiSue]

Hi @Altostrata thank you for your response.

I haven't changed my dose at all since 22nd Oct.. been holding at 10mg. To clarify, when I said "I know increasing my dose doesn't work, because I've tried that already" I was referring to when I increased it to 20mg in July. I'm not taking any other drugs other than last week I took 0.5mg Lorazepam 2 days in a row - only did that because I desperately needed to quiet my thoughts.. but I don't usually do that because I don't like the way they make me feel and it only helps for a couple of hours. 
I have been going to counselling however, and wondered if that could be challenging my CNS as intrusive memories come up??
Strangely enough, even though the doctor's advice stressed me out, I have been feeling better since yesterday.. somehow revisiting my choice & commitment to withdrawing from ADs seems to have pulled me out of the wave!

[KiwiSue]

Thanks Andy

[Altostrata]

11 hours ago, Altostrata said:

....

Are you taking any other drugs? When did you add them? Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. You can post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right.

 

 

 

I need this information before I can make any kind of guess about what's going on.