Nicjk: my introduction

[Nicjk]

7 hours ago, Shep said:

 

Does the pounding heart symptom go away soon after you take clonazepam? 

I am unsure of this because I only take clonazepam at night to get to sleep. I took only half last night (0.25mg) and then woke up 2.5 - 3 hours later, wide awake at 1am. I then battled

to get back to sleep, took another Restavit sleeping tablet and woke up at 4am (30

mins ago) wide awake. I would rather stabilise on the antidepressant for a while and then wean off the clonazepam because the withdrawals from clonazepam seem to be worse. I will remain on 5mg Lexapro while I taper. Can you suggest how to taper this clonazepam? I can’t remember which nights I have taken it and which nights I haven’t but I am definitely dependent on it now. 

[Shep]

16 hours ago, Nicjk said:

I am unsure of this because I only take clonazepam at night to get to sleep. I took only half last night (0.25mg) and then woke up 2.5 - 3 hours later, wide awake at 1am. I then battled

to get back to sleep, took another Restavit sleeping tablet and woke up at 4am (30

mins ago) wide awake.

 

Are you taking Restavit every night when you wake up or only periodically? 

 

It would be better to take the full dose of the clonazepam every night and then taper off it after you come off the antidepressant. If the Lexapro is causing insomnia, your insomnia may improve after you come off it. 

[Nicjk]

On 6/2/2020 at 8:58 PM, Shep said:

It would be better to take the full dose of the clonazepam every

@Shep I am living in a nightmare at the moment. I didn’t think I was dependent on Clonazepam so a few days ago I took half a tablet and then I didn’t take one the next night. Well yesterday I felt like I was dying. I couldn’t (still can’t) eat or focus on anything. I am going through waves of panic and depression and I am mentally numb. I went straight back on my usual dose of clonazepam after the one night I skipped it but I am still experiencing some of the horrible symptoms. Is there someone that can guide me about how to slowly taper off my 0.5mg of clonazepam? My psych wants to wean me off it over 2 weeks and my doctor mirrors whatever the psych suggests. This is all so sad because I have a little 14 month old boy depending on me. 

[ChessieCat]

On 6/2/2020 at 8:58 PM, Shep said:

Are you taking Restavit every night when you wake up or only periodically?

 

Please answer this question that Shep asked.  Thank you.

[Nicjk]

On 6/2/2020 at 8:58 PM, Shep said:

 

Are you taking Restavit every night when you wake up or only periodically? 

Sorry missed this. I was taking Restavit every night but now I’m not taking it. Also, I feel that it will be better for me to go off clonazepam before I go off Lexapro. 

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, Nicjk said:

I was taking Restavit every night but now I’m not taking it.

 

Drug signature states:  1st January to current - Doxylamine (Restavit) 18.75mg for sleep

 

Please add the date you stopped it to your drug signature so that it is up to date.  Thank you.

[ChessieCat]

From this topic:  Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?

 

"If you're not having an adverse reaction from the other medications, taper the most activating drug first. This is usually an antidepressant or stimulant (ADHD drug)."

[Nicjk]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

From this topic:  Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?

 

"If you're not having an adverse reaction from the other medications, taper the most activating drug first. This is usually an antidepressant or stimulant (ADHD drug)."

 

I get terrible insomnia when I go to 2.5mg of Lexapro and this situation is already giving me the worst insomnia ever so I would really prefer to cut out the clonazepam first. Is there any guide that I can use to work out my taper? The Ashton Manual seems to only be relevant for higher doses 

[ChessieCat]

It's only been about 3 weeks since your reinstated Lexapro(?).  Please add the drug name to the signature line so that it isn't misread.

 

Reinstated WHAT DRUG 5mg (0.06g) 16th May 2020 - Current

 

We generally recommend holding for 2-3 months (or longer if necessary) and get stabilised be starting to taper the same or different drug.

 

We do have a benzo forum.  Our benzo mod is currently taking some time away from SA.  I will let her know that you wish to taper clonazepam soon.

 

 

[Altostrata]

Quote

Decreased Lexapro dose to 0.03g 7th May 2020

 

0.03g is the pill weight, is that correct? How much Lexapro active ingredient are you taking now? That would be in milligrams.

 

On 6/2/2020 at 3:58 AM, Shep said:

....

It would be better to take the full dose of the clonazepam every night and then taper off it after you come off the antidepressant. If the Lexapro is causing insomnia, your insomnia may improve after you come off it. 

 

Shep suggested this a week ago.

 

16 hours ago, Nicjk said:

@Shep I am living in a nightmare at the moment. I didn’t think I was dependent on Clonazepam so a few days ago I took half a tablet and then I didn’t take one the next night. Well yesterday I felt like I was dying. I couldn’t (still can’t) eat or focus on anything. I am going through waves of panic and depression and I am mentally numb. I went straight back on my usual dose of clonazepam after the one night I skipped it but I am still experiencing some of the horrible symptoms. Is there someone that can guide me about how to slowly taper off my 0.5mg of clonazepam? My psych wants to wean me off it over 2 weeks and my doctor mirrors whatever the psych suggests. This is all so sad because I have a little 14 month old boy depending on me. 

 

After Shep said to take the clonazepam regularly, you decided to quit it a few days later. Why did you do that?

 

15 hours ago, Nicjk said:

Sorry missed this. I was taking Restavit every night but now I’m not taking it. Also, I feel that it will be better for me to go off clonazepam before I go off Lexapro. 

 

Shep advised you differently. You can, of course, devise your own taper but we may not be able to fix it if you go wrong.

 

12 hours ago, Nicjk said:

 

I get terrible insomnia when I go to 2.5mg of Lexapro and this situation is already giving me the worst insomnia ever so I would really prefer to cut out the clonazepam first. Is there any guide that I can use to work out my taper? The Ashton Manual seems to only be relevant for higher doses 

 

You went off clonazepam and got worse insomnia, is that correct? When you go off a benzo, you can get worse "rebound" symptoms, such as insomnia. 

 

It seems you made your choice: You quit clonazepam, so not sure what you're asking of us here. You'll have to cope with the insomnia.

 

What is your question?

[Usha]

@Nicjk I read your whole thread and the sleep problems which you are facing seems similar to me. I was also on citalopram ( Lexapro) for near about 6 months . I left all my meds 4 years back but still my sleep quality has not fully recovered. Whenever I go to sleep, I feel my mind is always in the dream like/ thoughts phase. Wheneever I wake up in the middle of night, I found my brain thinking about something. I easiy get exhausted in a day every 2 hours which drastically effects my productivity at work place. Let me know how you are feeling now? I am not in. situation to reinstate as I left the drugs 4 years ago.

Please advice. Thanks a lot for reading

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by ChessieCat
Correction/removed duplication of @s

[Nicjk]

@Altostrata I hope all is well. When we last spoke I was trying to come off Clonazepam 0.5mg, which I successfully came off around 3 weeks ago with no issues. I was having a lot of trouble sleeping so my psychiatrist (who I now HATE) put me on Pericyazine (Neulactil) and he told me it was just a harmless tablet used for sleep issues. I took it for a month and it helped me. I was on 20mg for a month and then the psychiatrist told me that I could start cutting down by 5mg per week. I got to 10mg and then a couple of days later all hell broke loose. I now can't sleep and have the most horrible anxiety. I went back up to 15mg last night and I plan to SLOWLY taper off. My question to you is - because I was on 20mg for a month, should I be going back up to 20mg? 

[Nicjk]

On 7/27/2020 at 12:24 PM, Usha said:

@Nicjk I read your whole thread and the sleep problems which you are facing seems similar to me. I was also on citalopram ( Lexapro) for near about 6 months . I left all my meds 4 years back but still my sleep quality has not fully recovered. Whenever I go to sleep, I feel my mind is always in the dream like/ thoughts phase. Wheneever I wake up in the middle of night, I found my brain thinking about something. I easiy get exhausted in a day every 2 hours which drastically effects my productivity at work place. Let me know how you are feeling now? I am not in. situation to reinstate as I left the drugs 4 years ago.

Please advice. Thanks a lot for reading

 

I am sorry to hear about the struggles with your sleep. I had to go back on Lexapro for a few reasons and it always helped my sleep. It’s almost as if our brains get wired to need the drug in order to sleep properly  

[ChessieCat]

13 minutes ago, Nicjk said:

my psychiatrist (who I now HATE) put me on Pericyazine (Neulactil) and he told me it was just a harmless tablet used for sleep issues.

 

I've learned from being a member here that it is a good idea to research any drug or supplement which is suggested, regardless of whether I am told it is harmless or, as was the case with me when prescribed ciprofloxacin, only a small percentage of people have reported issues, and when I checked online the FDA has put out several major warnings about this drug.

 

What you are taking is an antipsychotic so it's certainly not a "harmless tablet used for sleep issues".  It's not available in the USA so it's not possible to do a drug interaction check.

 

From wiki:

 

"Periciazine, also known as pericyazine or propericiazine, is a drug that belongs to the phenothiazine class of typical antipsychotics. Periciazine is not approved for sale in the United States. It is commonly sold in Canada and Russia under the tradename Neuleptil and in United Kingdom and Australia under the tradename Neulactil."

 

It takes about 4 days for a dose change to get to full level in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.  You did the right thing going back up to 15mg.  You might find that 15mg will help ease the withdrawal.  If you can hold out for a few more days things might settle but if you find that your symptoms remain unbearable you could try increasing by a small bit more.  Are you able to make a 17.5mg dose?  Please don't go back up to the full 20mg.

[ChessieCat]

Thank you for adding the drug to your drug signature. Please add the exact dates and dose changes.

 

Pericyazine 15mg - June 2020 - Current

 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by ChessieCat

[Nicjk]

27 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

I've learned from being a member here that it is a good idea to research any drug or supplement which is suggested, regardless of whether I am told it is harmless or, as was the case with me when prescribed ciprofloxacin, only a small percentage of people have reported issues, and when I checked online the FDA has put out several major warnings about this drug.

 

What you are taking is an antipsychotic so it's certainly not a "harmless tablet used for sleep issues".  It's not available in the USA so it's not possible to do a drug interaction check.

 

From wiki:

 

"Periciazine, also known as pericyazine or propericiazine, is a drug that belongs to the phenothiazine class of typical antipsychotics. Periciazine is not approved for sale in the United States. It is commonly sold in Canada and Russia under the tradename Neuleptil and in United Kingdom and Australia under the tradename Neulactil."

 

It takes about 4 days for a dose change to get to full level in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.  You did the right thing going back up to 15mg.  You might find that 15mg will help ease the withdrawal.  If you can hold out for a few more days things might settle but if you find that your symptoms remain unbearable you could try increasing by a small bit more.  Are you able to make a 17.5mg dose?  Please don't go back up to the full 20mg.

Thank you so much for your advice @ChessieCat. I will stay on 15mg and try and ride out the next few days. If I am still in a bad state it is possible for me to take a 17.5mg dose because the pills come in 2.5mg. I have updated my signature. I am really upset at myself for not researching Neulactil before taking it. 

[Nicjk]

10 minutes ago, Nicjk said:

What you are taking is an antipsychotic so it's certainly not a "harmless tablet used for sleep issues"

I forgot to ask - how long do you suggest I hold the 15mg (if this dose works out ok) before starting my tapering process again? 

[ChessieCat]

Until you stabilise = WDnormal

 

5.     Stability

 

11.   WDnormal

[Nicjk]

44 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Until you stabilise

Thanks for the info. Because I have only been on the drug for just over a month, is there a 3 - 4 month tapering schedule that I could try? 

[ChessieCat]

It's going to depend on your brain.  You've only just recently stopped clonazepam.

 

The fact that your symptoms worsened after you dropped to 10mg would seem to indicate that your brain had adapted to the pericyazine.

 

HOWEVER, you also need to take into consideration that there may be delayed withdrawal from the clonazepam.

 

Hopefully you might be able to stabilise on the 15mg pericyazine.

 

You are going to have to taper as your brain and nervous system dictates.  There aren't any quick fixes.

[Nicjk]

22 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Hopefully you might be able to stabilise on the 15mg pericyazine

Hi @ChessieCat, how many days should I give it before I think about going to 17.5mg? Another couple of days I'm guessing? I have had another horrible day and I'm just trying to hang in here. Constant state of panic and feeling down

[ChessieCat]

It's a tough question to answer.  If you had made a 10% reduction you would have gone from 20mg to 18mg. 

 

20mg   19 days

15mg     7 days

10mg     7 days

15mg     2 days?

 

However, it's now been 16 days since you first reduced to 15mg so your brain will have already made same adaptions to the lower dose and going back up to 17.5mg might make things worse.

 

As I previously posted it takes about 4 days for a dose change to get to full state in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.  If it was me I'd be trying to hold out for at least 4 days and then reassess.

 

It's would be a good idea if you keep notes of your symptoms over the next few days.  When we are feeling awful we don't always notice small improvements, because we just feel horrible.  Keeping notes might help you to notice some positive changes.

 

Q:  Do you have scales?

 

According to this document you might be able to dissolve the tablet/capsule contents in a small amount of alcohol (=ethanol) and then add water so you can increase by a tiny amount, eg 0.5mg instead of going all the way back up to 17.5mg.

 

"It is insoluble in water, slightly soluble in ether, fairly soluble in ethanol, acetone and benzene and freely soluble in chloroform."

 

And this is the ingredients for the oral solution which you will see contains ethanol.

 

Neuleptil®, a 30 mL 4 % oral (solution) drops containing 4 g of the Periciazine active ingredient, and also inactive ingredients such as purified water (100 mL), glycerol (15 g), ascorbic acid (0.8 g), ether oil, peppermint leaf extract (0.04 g), saccharose (sucrose) (25g) and E150d (caramel, 0.2 g), tartaric acid (1.65 g) and 96 % ethanol (9.74 g). SANOFI - AVENTIS FRANCE (France), produced by A. Hutterman & Sie, GmbH, Germany.

 

 

[Nicjk]

17 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

s I previously posted it takes about 4 days for a dose change to get to full state in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.

 

Hi @ChessieCat, I woke up feeling very bad thismorning and tried to go for a walk. On my walk I had a panic attack. About 30 minutes later, out of the blue I just started feeling like myself again. My anxiety died down to a manageable level and it has remained that way for the last couple of hours. Very strange and sudden! Do you think it could be something to do with the 15mg dosage reaching full state? Even though it has been less than 4 days. I'm hopeful that I will stay this way because it's much more manageable. 

[ChessieCat]

That's good news that you are feeling some improvement.

 

19 minutes ago, Nicjk said:

Do you think it could be something to do with the 15mg dosage reaching full state? Even though it has been less than 4 days.

 

Possibly.  It builds up gradually.  Sometimes there is a noticeable improvement within the first day, sometimes it takes longer.

 

It is important that you try to be patient.  Stabilising doesn't happen in a linear pattern, it will happen in windows and waves.  So try not to panic if things start to worsen a bit.  When we panic we can make bad decisions and possibly make things worse.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by ChessieCat

[Nicjk]

3 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

It is important that you try to be patient.  Stabilising doesn't happen in a linear pattern, it will happen in windows and waves.  So try not to panic if things start to worsen a bit.  When we panic we can make bad decisions and possibly make things worse.

 

Thank you so much for your support - it has helped me very much. 

[Nicjk]

On 7/30/2020 at 12:24 PM, ChessieCat said:

t is important that you try to be patient.  Stabilising doesn't happen in a linear pattern, it will happen in windows and waves.  So try not to panic if things start to

Hi @ChessieCat, unfortunately I had another bad day today. Yesterday and the day before were pretty good though. I know you said stabilising happens in windows and waves, but how will I know if 15mg isn’t the right dose for me to stabilise on? 

[Nicjk]

On 7/30/2020 at 12:24 PM, ChessieCat said:

So try not to panic if things start to worsen a bit

Hi @ChessieCat, I am finding it so hard not to panic. I have woken up today feeling truly horrible. Constant anxiety and in a state of panic. I'm scared that this will never end. Can you please talk some sense into me? 

[ChessieCat]

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/music/FirstAidPanicF.mp3

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/music/FirstAidPanicM.mp3

[Nicjk]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/music/FirstAidPanicF.mp3

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/music/FirstAidPanicM.mp3

 

Thank you @ChessieCat. I went for a walk and I feel a bit better. Is the fact that I had a couple of good days a sign that 15mg is an ok dose to stabilise on? I keep getting worried that I am trying to stabilise on too low a dose - I don't know how to work out if it's worth persisting on this dose or not 

[ChessieCat]

Mid June 2019 to 14 Jul 2020 - Clonazepam 0.5mg 

Pericyazine (Neulactil) 20mg 24th Jun 2020 - 12th July, down to 15mg 13th July - 19th July, down to 10mg 20th July - 26th July,

Reinstated 15mg Pericyazine 27 July 2020 - Currently on 15MG  

20mg Lexapro - 16th May 2020 - Current

 

You have made lots of changes since the beginning of this year and particularly in the last 10 weeks.  It is very difficult to know what is the best thing to do.

 

The more changes you make the more confused your brain is going to get.

 

The brain is continually trying to regain homeostasis.  Every time you add, reduce, change drugs it has to adapt to that change.  And that takes time.

 

If you change your dose again it might make things worse.  I think you are just going to have to be very patient and cope as best you can using non drug coping techniques and give your brain a chance to do what it needs to do, which is adapt to all the changes you have made.

 

You may be feeling like you need to do something, and even though it doesn't feel like it not changing anything IS doing something.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by ChessieCat

[ChessieCat]

 

[Nicjk]

6 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

I think you are just going to have to be very patient and cope as best you can using non drug coping techniques and give your brain a chance to do what it needs to do, which is adapt to all the changes you have made

 

Do you believe that if I'm patient, these withdrawals will lessen as my nervous system adapts to the stable dose? 

[Nicjk]

8 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

You may be feeling like you need to do something, and even though it doesn't feel like it not changing anything IS doing something.

@ChessieCat I am feeling like I just want to die. These withdrawals are so bad that I feel like dying would be a major relief for me. I know you have said I shouldn’t increase but is there a slight chance that increasing to 17.5mg could help ease some of these withdrawals? 

[ChessieCat]

It's up to you.  We can't make the decision for you.

[Nicjk]

9 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

It's up to you.  We can't make the decision for you.

 

I might give it one more night at 15mg and see how I feel tomorrow - hopefully another window will come my way 

[SkyStreamer]

17 hours ago, Nicjk said:

Hi @ChessieCat, I am finding it so hard not to panic. I have woken up today feeling truly horrible. Constant anxiety and in a state of panic. I'm scared that this will never end. Can you please talk some sense into me? 

 

Hi @Nicjk - I really feel for you. I've been tapering this poison for the last four years, and I've gone through so many of these agonizing withdrawal experiences - especially when I made the mistake of making big reductions early on.

 

There was a period about 1.5 years ago when I experienced a couple of panic attacks daily for almost 6 or 7 months. And, I had the most terrifying nightmares almost every single night where I'd wake up in extreme anxiety and panic. For what it's worth, these periods eventually did pass. But, it took time and a lot of agony. I'm in a wave presently, but not as bad as my previous ones early in my tapering journey.

 

What has really helped me endure some of these withdrawal periods is the following:

 

- Reducing stress as much a possible

- Listening to talks by: Ekhart Tolle, Jon Kabat-Zinn and Claire Weeks

- Wim Hof breathing & cold shower practices

- Mindfulness (i.e. bodyscan)

- Relaxing youtube videos (anything by Nature Relaxation Films)

- Youtube meditations by Michael Sealey

 

Maybe you could try a few of these options for coping strategies. They likely won't get rid of your withdrawal, but they might take the edge off a bit.

Hope you're able to find some acceptance and peace in the midst of the turmoil - however that may be.