Nicjk: my introduction

[jozeff]

Hi nic,

 

This could very well be a pattern. I've had the same feelings as you do. I noticed a pattern too as long as I didn't change anything concerning diet, sleep, meds. As soon as something changes things tend to ramp up.

 

We have a 1 year old boy (and a 8 year old one,😉) and he kept me awake more than I can remember. I was tapering ( and still am) citalopram and sometimes when I got up after 5 hours of lousy sleep I just wanted to end my life. That's how horrible it felt. I had to go to work every day and somehow this pattern developed where I felt horrible in the morning and perfectly fine 8 in the evening.

 

What I want to say to you is this: you have been changing dose because you were desperate. The more you try to find the holy Grail of "your perfect dose" the harder it is to stabilize. Stick to your current dose and try to keep things as stable as possible. This will get you the shortest time of misery.

 

I know it feels horrible to feel attached from your child. This too is wd. Sometimes I'm completely in love with my baby but some moments I don't feel anything. This is horrible but I try to accept it. Just remember that this is temporary. In your heart you know you love your kid!

 

Stick to your dosage and tough it out. I'm always tempted to make changes (see my topic) but try to keep it slow. And......try not to overthink stuff. I know you accidentally took 20 mg but thinking about  this ramps things up even more. There was a time I was calculating and reading for two hours a day. All about schemes, taper mechanism, coping skills etc. The more I read the more insecure I got.

 

Sometimes we have to just wait and live. Let nature do it's thing.

 

I wish you all the best!!!

 

 

Jozeff

[Nicjk]

37 minutes ago, jozeff said:

Hi nic,

 

This could very well be a pattern. I've had the same feelings as you do. I noticed a pattern too as long as I didn't change anything concerning diet, sleep, meds. As soon as something changes things tend to ramp up.

 

We have a 1 year old boy (and a 8 year old one,😉) and he kept me awake more than I can remember. I was tapering ( and still am) citalopram and sometimes when I got up after 5 hours of lousy sleep I just wanted to end my life. That's how horrible it felt. I had to go to work every day and somehow this pattern developed where I felt horrible in the morning and perfectly fine 8 in the evening.

 

What I want to say to you is this: you have been changing dose because you were desperate. The more you try to find the holy Grail of "your perfect dose" the harder it is to stabilize. Stick to your current dose and try to keep things as stable as possible. This will get you the shortest time of misery.

 

I know it feels horrible to feel attached from your child. This too is wd. Sometimes I'm completely in love with my baby but some moments I don't feel anything. This is horrible but I try to accept it. Just remember that this is temporary. In your heart you know you love your kid!

 

Stick to your dosage and tough it out. I'm always tempted to make changes (see my topic) but try to keep it slow. And......try not to overthink stuff. I know you accidentally took 20 mg but thinking about  this ramps things up even more. There was a time I was calculating and reading for two hours a day. All about schemes, taper mechanism, coping skills etc. The more I read the more insecure I got.

 

Sometimes we have to just wait and live. Let nature do it's thing.

 

I wish you all the best!!!

 

 

Jozeff

Hi @jozeff, I really appreciate your words of advice. Sorry to hear about your struggles. It gives me some comfort to know that there are others also going through the same thing as I am, with kids. It means that you understand. The lack of sleep you went through and the fact that you still had to go to work sounds horrendous - sorry again to hear about that. I will definitely take your advice and stick to my dose to try and stabilise. Wishing you all the very best with your tapering journey and thank you for reaching out. 

[Nicjk]

Hi @ChessieCat, since we last spoke I have been on a wild ride. I so badly wanted to take your advice but I was suicidal from morning to night every single day (no windows and only waves). My family forced me to be admitted to a mental health ward on the 7th of September and my psychiatrist took charge of my meds. He CT me from Lexapro and put me on 75mg Nortriptyline. He also put me on 5mg of Olanzapine on the 15th of September because I could not sleep. I reduced the Olanzapine to 2.5mg last night because I haven't been on it for long. This week I have actually felt a huge improvement in my mood - almost feeling like myself again. However, I obviously don't want to stay on this cocktail of drugs. I want to reduce either the Olanzapine or the Diazepam first. I do not want to reduce the Nortriptyline at this current time. 

I am so sorry that I could not follow your advice but I feel like I was on the verge of killing myself so I had to hand over my care. I have an 18 month old son relying on me. Can you advise as to whether it would be best to go off the Olanzapine first or the Diazepam? I have only been on the Olanzapine since the 15th of September so I am wondering if a fast taper could be an option, and then I will slowly taper off the Diazepam. What are your thoughts? 

[Gridley]

13 hours ago, Nicjk said:

Can you advise as to whether it would be best to go off the Olanzapine first or the Diazepam? I have only been on the Olanzapine since the 15th of September so I am wondering if a fast taper could be an option, and then I will slowly taper off the Diazepam. What are your thoughts? 

Since you've been on the Olanzapine for only 15 days, I'd suggest a fast taper off it first.  Generally you're at a danger of withdrawal after one month, so you're well within the time frame for a fast taper.  You could stay on the 2.5mg for 4 more days. If the Olanzapine is a tablet, you could cut it in half for a dose of 1.25mg for 5 days, then zero.

 

Regarding the diazepam, since you've been on it for almost 2 months, very likely you're physiologically dependent so you'll need to do a standard 10% taper.

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

Your previous reduction from 10mg to 7mg was 30%, a good bit more than our recommendation.

 

I'd wait a bit after you get off the Olanzapine to let things settle before beginning your Diazepam taper.

[Nicjk]

48 minutes ago, Gridley said:

Your previous reduction from 10mg to 7mg was 30%, a good bit more than our recommendation.

Hi @Gridley, thanks very much for your recommendations. Since I only dropped from 8mg Diazepam to 7mg on Tuesday (29th September) should I go back up to 8mg and hold for a while? 

[Gridley]

16 minutes ago, Nicjk said:

Since I only dropped from 8mg Diazepam to 7mg on Tuesday (29th September) should I go back up to 8mg and hold for a while? 

How are you feeling?

[Nicjk]

27 minutes ago, Gridley said:

How are you feeling?

I am actually feeling pretty good (minimal anxiety) but I know that diazepam has a long half life so I hope my last reduction doesn't catch up to me

[Nicjk]

4 hours ago, Gridley said:

How are you feeling?

If I do start feeling WD anxiety (I can tell it apart from regular anxiety) over the next few days would you suggest I go back up to 8mg and hold? 

[Gridley]

12 hours ago, Nicjk said:

If I do start feeling WD anxiety (I can tell it apart from regular anxiety) over the next few days would you suggest I go back up to 8mg and hold? 

Yes, you could do that.  The updose period for benzos is much shorter (2 to 4 weeks) than for ADs, but you're still well within that period.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Gridley

[Nicjk]

8 hours ago, Gridley said:

Yes, you could do that.  The updose period for benzos is much shorter (2 to 4 weeks) than for ADs, but you're still well within that period.

Thanks @Gridley. I had an anxious day yesterday so I played it safe and updosed to 8mg Diazepam. I will stick to that dose for a while so that I’m stable while coming off the Olanzapine. I was put on the Olanzapine because I had bad insomnia - I’m scared that the insomnia will be an issue again when I come off the drug. Can you recommend anything that will help with the sleep once I come off it? 

[ChessieCat]

4 minutes ago, Nicjk said:

Can you recommend anything that will help with the sleep once I come off it? 

 

tips-to-help-sleep-so-many-of-us-have-that-awful-withdrawal-insomnia

 

There are lots of links in Post #1.

 

[Gridley]

@Nicjk

 

Some members have found melatonin helpful with insomnia.

 

Melatonin for sleep   It's best to start at a very low dosage, such as .25mg, and gradually increase if needed to the lowest effective dose.  

 

I've read that 0.3mg is an ideal dose. (Of course, everyone is different.)  0.3mg is what I take.  A brand that's exactly .3mg is available on Amazon at this link:

 

(available on Amazon)

 

 

 

 

 

[Nicjk]

On 10/2/2020 at 7:14 AM, Gridley said:

 You could stay on the 2.5mg for 4 more days

Hi @Gridley, would you suggest that I stay on the 2.5mg for a full seven nights? Or would 5 nights be enough? And thank you for your suggestion regarding the melatonin 

[Gridley]

7 hours ago, Nicjk said:

would you suggest that I stay on the 2.5mg for a full seven nights? Or would 5 nights be enough? And thank you for your suggestion regarding the melatonin 

Five nights would be enough.  I wrote the following on Thursday, Oct. 1.

 

On 10/1/2020 at 4:14 PM, Gridley said:

 You could stay on the 2.5mg for 4 more days. If the Olanzapine is a tablet, you could cut it in half for a dose of 1.25mg for 5 days, then zero.

 

[Nicjk]

11 hours ago, Gridley said:

Five nights would be enough.  I wrote the following on Thursday, Oct. 1.

 

 

Thank you. Just wanted to make sure. I’ve been taking 2.5mg since the 30th October which means that tonight I’ll be dropping to half for 5 nights. 
Unbelievable how much weight I have gained from this drug in such a short time! 

[Nicjk]

On 10/3/2020 at 8:25 AM, ChessieCat said:

 

tips-to-help-sleep-so-many-of-us-have-that-awful-withdrawal-insomnia

 

There are lots of links in Post #1.

 

@ChessieCat thank you for this info. As you are in Australia, have you spoken to any members living in VIC that have psychiatrists willing to assist with a 10% taper off meds? My psychiatrist is still convinced that I can go cold turkey after being on diazepam for 2 months and my long term doctor has told me to drop 1mg per week. I would like to find a psychiatrist that will be open to writing scripts to a compounding pharmacy (once I have been off Olanzapine for a bit). 

[ChessieCat]

  

On 10/4/2020 at 8:09 AM, Shep said:

 

This may be worth printing out to take to doctors who aren't informed on the problems with these drugs. 

 

 

fda-requiring-boxed-warning-updated-to-improve-safe-use-of-benzodiazepine-drug-class

 

[ChessieCat]

3 hours ago, Nicjk said:

I would like to find a psychiatrist that will be open to writing scripts to a compounding pharmacy (once I have been off Olanzapine for a bit). 

 

What drug are you referring to?  I believe that in America it is necessary to get a prescription written for compounding a drug.  However, here in Australia all i needed to do was take my tablets to the compounding pharmacy and tell them what I needed.  But I am not a member of a health fund so it could be that you might be covered for the cost of compounding and that you will need a script.  I suggest you contact a compounding pharmacy and ask them what is required.

 

getting-custom-dosages-at-compounding-pharmacies-us-uk-canada-and-elsewhere

 

You do not need to have a psychiatric write the script.  Any doctor can do that.  Also, you do not need to have a doctor on board to taper your drug.  All you need is to have a doctor who will write the prescription for what you need.  I suggest you check out this topic about how other members do this.  how-to-talk-to-a-doctor-about-tapering-and-withdrawal-what-to-expect

 

If it is an antidepressant you will be tapering you might find it helpful to print out this document too:  Stopping antidepressants

 

[Nicjk]

7 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

What drug are you referring to? 

I am referring to diazepam. Thank you for the info - I will look into it. On another note, I updosed my diazepam from 7mg to 8mg on Friday the 2nd of October but I am still feeling bad withdrawals. Is it possible that my brain just needs more time to adjust to the updose? 

[Nicjk]

On 10/3/2020 at 12:05 AM, Gridley said:

Yes, you could do that.  The updose period for benzos is much shorter (2 to 4 weeks) than for ADs, but you're still well within that period.

Hi @Gridley, I updosed to 8mg diazepam on Friday the 2nd of October. Yesterday I had extremely intense anxiety all day and last night I didn’t sleep. Do you think my updose has had a paradoxical reaction?

[Gridley]

52 minutes ago, Nicjk said:

Do you think my updose has had a paradoxical reaction?

It's possible though I would've expected it Saturday rather than yesterday.  How are you today?

[Nicjk]

4 minutes ago, Gridley said:

It's possible though I would've expected it Saturday rather than yesterday.  How are you today?

The anxiety did start on Saturday mildly but it peaked yesterday. Today I am exhausted and anxious. Is there anything I can do about this? 

[Gridley]

57 minutes ago, Nicjk said:

Is there anything I can do about this? 

 I would make no further changes to Diazepam or Olanzapine.  Let's see how you are tomorrow.

 

Doing some detective work (please check me on this):

Aug 5 to Tuesday, Sept. 29  tapered Diazepam from 10 to 7 

Wed., Sept. 30 dropped Olanzapine from 5mg to 2.5.  

Friday, Oct. 2 Updosed Diazepam from 7 to 8 

Sat. Oct. 3 mild symptoms began

Sunday, Oct. 4  dropped Olanzapine from 2.5 to 1.25.  

Sun. Oct. 4 anxiety and insomnia peaked

Monday, Oct. 5 exhausted and anxious.

 

Please update your signature to show this timeline.

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 

This restorative yoga posture helps with anxiety.

 

10 minute Restorative Yoga for Relaxation | Up the wall

 

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Gridley

[Gridley]

@Nicjk

 

Nickjk,

 

How are you doing today?

[Nicjk]

3 hours ago, Gridley said:

@Nicjk

 

Nickjk,

 

How are you doing today?

Hi @Gridley, I am ashamed to say that I upped my dose of Olanzapine back to 5mg for the last two nights, because insomnia is a huge trigger for my anxiety. Last night I managed to get a decent amount of sleep so I am probably 5/10 anxious today instead of 10/10. I am starting to think it will be better for me to stay on the Olanzapine (Zyprexa) while I taper my diazepam, then tackle the Olanzapine. What are your thoughts? I have updated my signature

[Gridley]

12 hours ago, Nicjk said:

thoughts?

That sounds fine.  I'm glad you got some sleep and are feeling better.

[Nicjk]

On 10/7/2020 at 10:26 PM, Gridley said:

That sounds fine.  I'm glad you got some sleep and are feeling better.

hi @Gridley, I have stabilised well on my diazepam and I am going to start reducing it slowly very soon. I am having issues on 5mg Olanzapine (huge hunger, head spins when standing up, daytime tiredness). Do you think it is now too late to reduce my dosage back to 2.5mg without tapering? I found that dosage much more tolerable 

[Gridley]

12 minutes ago, Nicjk said:

Do you think it is now too late to reduce my dosage back to 2.5mg without tapering? I found that dosage much more tolerable 

Changing your dosage so many times is very destabilizing.   If you want to reduce the Olanzapine, I would taper down rather than drop to 2.5.  That would mean you'd have to delay the Diazepam taper until you'd gotten down to where you want to be on the Olanzapine.

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

Tips for tapering off olanzapine (Zyprexa)

 

 

 

  

[Nicjk]

1 hour ago, Gridley said:

Changing your dosage so many times is very destabilizing.   If you want to reduce the Olanzapine, I would taper down rather than drop to 2.5.

Is it possible that I will be ok dropping down to 2.5mg because I have only taken the medication for just on a month? My diazepam taper is only going to start again in a few weeks 

[ChessieCat]

2 minutes ago, Nicjk said:

I have only taken the medication for just on a month?

 

It can take as little as 1 month for the brain to fully adapt to taking a psychiatric drug.  You might be able to go faster than 10% but I think it would be better to do a 10% reduction first and see how you go.  You might be able to make another 10% reduction after 2-3 weeks instead of holding for 4 weeks.  Please note that you will need listen to your body/symptoms and hold if/when necessary.

[Nicjk]

3 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

It can take as little as 1 month for the brain to fully adapt to taking a psychiatric drug.  You might be able to go faster than 10% but I think it would be better to do a 10% reduction first and see how you go.  You might be able to make another 10% reduction after 2-3 weeks instead of holding for 4 weeks.  Please note that you will need listen to your body/symptoms and hold if/when necessary.

Thanks @ChessieCat. I am still unsure about how to reduce by 10% seeing as the pills aren't water soluble - do you have further info for me? 

[ChessieCat]

If you are talking about Olanzapine, please see Gridley's last post.

[Nicjk]

On 10/15/2020 at 3:13 PM, ChessieCat said:

If you are talking about Olanzapine, please see Gridley's last post.

Hi @ChessieCat, which would be best for me to taper first - diazepam or olanzapine? I am not sure of which is more active 

[ChessieCat]

From https://reference.medscape.com/drug-interactionchecker

 

Quote

 

 

diazepam + olanzapine

diazepam and olanzapine both increase sedation.

 

 

 

 

From Tips for tapering off olanzapine (Zyprexa)

 

On 2/8/2013 at 2:00 PM, Altostrata said:

 

Olanzapine is an atypical antipsychotic with a number of serious drug interactions and side effects, weight gain, blood sugar elevation, and movement disorders among them.

 

 

From https://www.drugs.com/sfx/zyprexa-side-effects.html

 

Quote

 

Common side effects of Zyprexa include: asthenia, dizziness, drowsiness, extrapyramidal reaction, hyperkinetic muscle activity, akinesia, cogwheel rigidity, drug-induced parkinson's disease, dyspepsia, mask-like face, and xerostomia. Other side effects include: abnormal gait, back pain, constipation, fever, orthostatic hypotension, weight gain, myoclonus, and personality disorder.

 

 

For side effects of diazepam see:  https://www.drugs.com/sfx/diazepam-side-effects.html

 

Both drugs increase sedation.  When this is the case you then look at the side effects.  With the information I've provided about the side effects, which drug do you think it would be better to get off first?

 

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by ChessieCat

[Nicjk]

40 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

When this is the case you then look at the side effects.  With the information I've provided about the side effects, which drug do you think it would be better to get off first?

This is a tricky one. I don't find diazepam to be very sedating, so I could rely on the sedation from Olanzapine to help me with sleep while I'm tapering off diazepam. However, I don't think I could put up with the side effects from Olanzapine while I slowly taper off diazepam. I could taper to a low dose of Olanzapine (2.5mg), wait a while and then start tapering off diazepam. What are your thoughts on that? 

[ChessieCat]

4 minutes ago, Nicjk said:

I don't find diazepam to be very sedating

 

Q:  Have you ever taken diazepam without nortriptyline or olanzapine.

 

I'm assuming from your drug signature that you are currently taking Zyprexa, nortriptyline and olanzipine.

 

All 3 of these cause sedation:

 

From https://reference.medscape.com/drug-interactionchecker

• diazepam + olanzapine

  diazepam and olanzapine both increase sedation.

• diazepam + nortriptyline

  diazepam and nortriptyline both increase sedation.

• olanzapine + nortriptyline

  olanzapine and nortriptyline both increase sedation.

 

 

Taking a high dose and/or 2 or more sedating drugs can sometimes cause a paradoxical effect. 

 

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxical_reaction

 

"A paradoxical reaction or paradoxical effect is an effect of a chemical substance, typically a medical drug, that is opposite to what would typically be expected. An example of a paradoxical reaction is pain caused by a pain relief medication."

 

I suggest you check out this article:

 

https://www.madinamerica.com/2015/02/zyprexa-astonishing-betrayal/