morgana: Zyprexa / olanzapine

[morgana]

yeah i think so too...thankyou

[morgana]

i just do not want to be in the same position as @Terry4949 5 years down the road and still not getting much sleep thanks @hayduke i hope it works!

[hayduke]

I don't even know what Cipramil is but in your sig, CTing it at the same time as you started cutting down the olanzapine may account for a bit more 'hangover' to catch up on?

 

Let us know how you go

[ChessieCat]

2 minutes ago, hayduke said:

I don't even know what Cipramil is but in your sig

 

Cipramil is citalopram, aka Celexa

 

3 minutes ago, hayduke said:

CTing it at the same time as you started cutting down the olanzapine may account for a bit more 'hangover' to catch up on?

 

According to the signature it was 4 years ago but because it was taken for a long time and at the maximum dose and stopped CT there could be issues still happening from that.

 

Cipramil  40mg  1996 to October 2017 stopped cold turkey

[morgana]

Ciprimil is an Anti depressant ...thankyou Chessi cat, doctors always just called it by its common name...i was on 40mls every day back when i ct which i had been on from 1996 to 2017 at the time i didnt know what it was called but i think it had "pooped out', because at the time i felt as depressed really bad and thought well it obviously isnt working so what was the point taking it and , i really didnt understand withdrawal back then..so it probably has had a major affect on me too, just since withdrawing from zyprexa i tend to think all my symptoms are are all due to my zyprexa.....

[hayduke]

Doing more reading up on trauma again before the day starts just now, and this crossed my mind.  Morgana, another possibility is that your reduced dosage at 2.5mg is letting past trauma make itself known to you for healing.

 

I started my EMDR around 2.1mg which ain't far off 2.5 at all and it really started opening the gate for me.

 

I would strongly suggest to everyone coming off this drug that they be ready to deal with any underlying trauma it may be masking, especially with the purported diagnosis you were given.

 

[morgana]

thankyou @hayduke i know i will need to look at my trauma but i at present  feel that the medication has caused damage to my brain...i took 1/2 solid and 1/2 dissolved in 10mls of water, i felt really really tired about 30 mins later. i went to bed at 10pm, no thoughts, i did not look at clock, i was extremely relaxed, eyes closed tightly, brain felt empty and blank the whole time, like my brain feels like it cannot switch into a fall asleep mode. i feel i am like an animal that sleeps while standing up, just ready to run if in danger...that is how i feel now, just resting my body, i woke up at 2.40am and went to the toilet, eyes burning and sore and wide awake until 4.45am so got up for the day....i was hoping the change in method would help me sleep but it didnt....

 

but i think looking at a Sleep Clinic like you suggested sounds like a good idea thou!...i do not feel ready for Therapy yet

[hayduke]

Sounds like your limbic system ("fight or flight") is getting set off too often.

 

When that happens, your body keeps releasing adrenalin and cortisol.  If you perceive a threat your body won't let you sleep, for your survival.  You get stressed out, tired, irritable etc and it builds up.  This is what the fires were like for me in 2019 and I was utterly buggered afterwards!

 

Unprocessed trauma keeps hitting the "alarm bells" in the limbic system at any unsuitable time until it is resolved, typically with a trauma expert clinical psychologist.  

 

The best book on the matter in general is usually said to be The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel van der Kolk.  Highly recommended.

 

I think at 2.5mg this is something to be planning for soon.

[hayduke]

Melatonin is handy here too cos no hangovers.  Also it only sends your body the sleep signal, it doesn't keep you under.  If melatonin helps you fall asleep but you keep waking, something else is disturbing your sleep.

 

I would get the trauma side assessed before approaching a sleep clinic, life's too short for red herrings.

 

Cheers

Edited October 23, 2021 by hayduke

[morgana]

i tried Meletonin @hayduke i bought one here at the local whole food shop and another one on line from America from the Sleep Lab it was ranked the best meletonin on the market, it made me drowsy but i still didnt sleep, only took it one night, because it didnt work that night i didnt take it again...

 

i will buy that book, you have mentioned it before

 

when i go to bed, i do not feel i am fearful of anything, body is very relaxed its just my brain does not fall into a sleep, just blank..like i am brain dead, like i am an empty shell.....horrible feeling 

[morgana]

also i just googled sleep clinics in Cairns we only have about 3 and  all they really deal with is sleep apnea which i do not have, i do not even snore...lol

[92sharks]

@morganaAre you able to go for acupuncture? If so, I would highly recommend for help with your sleep difficulties, emotional issues, trauma, wd symptoms, etc. I'm so sorry you are having such difficulty.  

[hayduke]

Remedial massage is another super helpful one too.  As is yoga.  Thanks for suggesting that line of activities @92sharks

[hayduke]

Long walks and bike rides too

[morgana]

thankyou @92sharks for your kind thoughts, i have had acupuncture done before but not for sleep issues, i could try it...i have done Tapping on your meridians which is similar to acupuncture it really helps when you are stressed, but at present i feel quite relaxed, nothing seems to be bothering me lately apart from not sleeping, i walk and do a few laps of the pool with sauna, i know meditation works well @hayduke  i havnt been doing that lately, i guess i do things and when they do not seem to really make much difference i have a tendency to give up, but i will give it another try

[hayduke]

*hugs*

[morgana]

thanks @hayduke

[morgana]

hello @Altostrata hope your doing well, i was just watching a youtube podcast which you were discussing protracted withdrawal from anti depressants, it was very informative and i learnt alot... you did a survey or research on protracted withdrawal only on anti depressants not on anti psychotics and i understand this forum mainly deals with people wanting to taper off anti depressants however i am very thankyou you also support those wanting to taper off anti psychotics as well... i guess what i would love to see is research done on how long it takes to feel well off anti psychotics...on average you said 2 to 3 years apart from the odd one that took longer...to feel OK off anti depressants ... i guess i would love to see some research on how long it takes to get over anti psychotic  medications..i am very grateful you allow us on your forum...but would love to see some concreate research on this. if you ever have the time  .cheers morgana

 

[ChessieCat]

10 hours ago, morgana said:

i guess i would love to see some research on how long it takes to get over anti psychotic  medications

 

I found this paper.  One of the Key Words is antipsychotic.

 

I have not read it so I don't know if it mentions anything about recovery time.

 

cosci-2020-acute-and-persistent-withdrawal-syndromes-following-discontinuation-of-psychotropic-medications

 

[morgana]

thankyou @ChessieCat for the research paper however it pretty much says upto 6 weeks is when you get discontinuation symptoms, it was good to read, but i guess i would of like to of know about protracted withdrawal, the one that can take years in regards to anti psychotics..i guess the research is out there but i just havnt sort it out yet....since watching that talk on Town Hall in regards to protracted withdrawal it has got me thinking about it..and i will start to look for reseach on it...thankyou  

[hayduke]

I can tell you I am nowhere near finished adjusting to zero after 6 weeks.

 

Concentration, memory, fatigue, cog fog all bounce around a bit.

 

But I'm sleeping ok and my body loves the improvements.  Especially starting yoga again.

 

I'm also still dealing with messy feelings in therapy and life is imposing more external stresses than I would choose.

 

But overall I wouldn't say it's any more disruptive than mid taper withdrawals.

 

6 months and the next year or three will be interesting benchmarks.

[morgana]

hi @Hayduke, good to hear, so because you did such a slow taper, would you say you are not in protracted withdrawal? its just your body adjusting..

 

it would be interesting to see how you are going in 6 months to a year from now!

[Altostrata]

Excellent idea, @morgana I have a list of things to write that is as long as my arm, so....

 

But from what I can see, all psychotropics follow similar arcs of recovery, as outlined in 

 

Hengartner, M. P., Schulthess, L., Sorensen, A., & Framer, A. (2020). Protracted withdrawal syndrome after stopping antidepressants: A descriptive quantitative analysis of consumer narratives from a large internet forum. Therapeutic Advances in Psychopharmacology. https://doi.org/10.1177/2045125320980573

[morgana]

thankyou @Altostrata for the paper

[hayduke]

1 hour ago, morgana said:

hi @Hayduke, good to hear, so because you did such a slow taper, would you say you are not in protracted withdrawal? its just your body adjusting..

 

it would be interesting to see how you are going in 6 months to a year from now!

 

For sure.  Keeping the changes smooth and gentle is the way to go so your body doesn't get overwhelmed.  It's hard enough that way when you add it all up anyway!

[morgana]

just hope people come to this site and see the positives of doing a slow taper before they decide to taper...hopefully they will follow your posts @hayduke and save themselves alot of pain...i wished i had seen this forum and followed its advice before i tapered...but than you also need to be in that frame of mind to want to listen and follow the advice..i know i am in PAWS maybe its from the Cold turkey of the anti depressant or the large drops of zyprexa or just the combination of the two. cheers morgana

[hayduke]

Yes, it's a pity so many people show up in acute withdrawal, just because they didn't know.  I can relate from my fruitless cut from 5 to 3 1/3mg, I just reverted and held until a friend gave me Breggin to read a fair while later, which prompted me to find SA and join.

[hayduke]

@DataGuy would you have any thoughts on how @morgana might improve her sleep?

 

She's been at 2.5mg olanzapine for ages and had a lot of disruption when transitioning from a solid tablet to a suspension.

[DataGuy]

Hi @hayduke and @morgana. @morgana are you taking any other meds or supplements? Any coffee, smoking, nicotine, sedative teas or anything like that? How long have you had trouble sleeping? How many hours are you getting now and how many were you getting before? Has it gotten worse recently? What was the initial trigger for the sleep getting worse? If you could give an estimate of how your sleep has gone over time (hours per night), that would be helpful. Do you mostly have trouble falling asleep or staying asleep? Have you ever tried CBT for insomnia? What other types of things have you tried to help sleep? I see meditation, exercise...those can be very helpful for sure. Are there any nights you notice you sleep worse than others? Answering some of these questions may provide some helpful clues : )

[morgana]

hi @DataGuyi have been keeping track of everything for the past year every day, from the time i get up to the time i go to bed, what i eat, drink, supplements, medications  when i ****, my main symptoms, when i got to bed how i sleep, basically everything....and in the end nothing changes, no sleep, worse symptoms, i am basically now disabled...51 years old but in a 70 year old body....you know this is well worth the effort if you have something or someone to live for, i have no support from anyone, no family, friends or loved ones, no one to talk to...i even went to a mental health club for people with mental health problems hoping to get some support in dealing with withdrawing....they told me their hands are tied....only can help you if you take your meds!

attached are my sleep, eat, ****, urinate, symptoms tables, i have given up!

 

 

 

food n sleep diary january 2021.docx sympton table feb2021.docx march food and sleep table 2021.docx April symptom table 2021.docx Food and Sleep diary May 2021.docx JUNE food and Sleep table 2021.docx food and sleep diary july 2021.docx food and sleep diary augtust 2021.docx september food and sleep diary 2021.docx food and sleep diary OCTOBER 2021.docx FOOD AND SLEEP TABLE - NOVEMBER 2021.docx Symptom Table November 2021.docx

[DataGuy]

Thank you, @morgana. You have done a great job of keeping track of things. I'm sorry you've been suffering so much. Not sleeping is quite a misery.

 

I notice that you don't really write down any definitive time you sleep. You must have some idea that you have been asleep for 2 or 3 hours? 

 

I think I would suggest cutting out the alcohol entirely. Alcohol is a neurotoxic drug that can really mess up your sleep, your mood, and your body. Best to give your nervous system as much of a break from this type of stuff as possible. We want to build up your brain and nervous system, not break it down. Neurotoxicity can have some serious health consequences. 

 

I would also cut out caffeine entirely. Both of these drugs can cause addiction and dependency. They can also have strange effects on a very sensitive nervous system. Drinking one evening may not only mess up your sleep for that night, it may mess things up in subsequent nights as well by disturbing your mood and activities throughout the day. These types of drugs can negatively effect you much more than you think.

 

What do you think of this @morgana? It may take awhile for your system to stabilize after cutting these out, but if you are still having trouble sleeping, there are plenty of other things we can try. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by DataGuy

[Rrsfc]

Hi @morgana, I wanted to share with you my input on what you were advised, namely stopping caffein and alcohol. I don't drink any coffee, it really spiked my anxiety, it was awful. More than 20 years since my last cup. I can eat coffee cjeesecake though, if it's not too strong. I love teas but I also had to give up, if I drank green tea at 5pm I had insomnia 🙄. Black tea I stopped entirely, too. Alcohol I can only tolerate half a glass of wine, more than that it really messes with my well being. So these are 2 good points to try, nervous systems can be really sensitive to alcohol and coffee... Hope you get better and that this testimony helps you get the motivation to cut back and see if it helps. 

[BadMedicine]

Hi @morgana. So sorry to hear you are suffering so much. Not sleeping for months on end sounds horrific. I just wanted to tell you that I had trouble transitioning to liquid as well. When I first tried to dissolve a whole 2.5mg tablet in water last January I started to have trouble sleeping - was very broken and dropped to about 5 hours. It felt like I wasn’t getting very much of the dose at all. I quickly re-instated the solid tablet and my sleep did improve again but it took a month to go completely back to normal. 
What I have done since is dissolve 1/4 of a tablet in liquid. Even then the first month after that - although my sleep was OK I definitely had an unnatural elevated mood. I then tapered that down over the course of 6 months before I dissolved the next quarter. I do think you lose bio-availability when you dissolve in liquid but by tapering down really slowly after dissolving each quarter allows the brain to adapt to an initial potentially quite large reduction.

I wonder if you might benefit from going back to a solid tablet for a bit and hopefully getting your sleep back, then incrementally dissolving and tapering. This is only my opinion based on my experience so your mileage may vary. But I thought I would give you my experience.

 

You have been given some good advice as well about other ways that might help you to re-gain your sleep.

 

I really hope things improve for you. Olanzapine is a beast of a drug to get off and this is not recognised by the doctors. My psychiatrist categorically told me that people don’t have trouble getting off it and scoffed at me wanting to taper off slowly. I don’t know how they can be so far removed from the reality of the situation. Unfortunately it is what it is and we have to take matters into our own hands. Thankfully there are forums like this that validate our experiences.

 

 

[Venkat]

Hi @morgana

When I was down and feeling hopeless you told me " we are not giving up on you yet venkat " and I held on and am able to see the light at the end of the tunnel now.

 

Now , I am telling you the same thing, we are not giving up on you yet , hold on ,make some life style modifications and you too shall see the light at the end of the tunnel. 

[hayduke]

Hey Morgana.  Hope you are getting on ok and set up for a comfy yule season.

 

h

[Rrsfc]

Hi @morgana how have you been doing? I finally started my taper and have been thinking of you... Hope you are getting some sleep. 😘