Vasherr: 2.5 years on Venlafaxine

[Vasherr]

Hi, I recently fell sick with COVID and couldn't tolerate my 37,5mg dose of Venlafaxine, as I know now I must be very sensitive to changes in serotonin level, and some articles suggest that COVID upps the serotonin level and it must have gone above what I was able to handle, Ive reduced the dose to around 15mg while in the hospital and started to feel a little better but after upping to 21mg or so I still ADR'ed, tried to quit ct, 2 days were better and I've crashed on the third, I then found Your site while researching what is happening to me and reinstated at 2x4,5mg taken 12h apart as I know know that cutting the XR tablet makes it IR, I don't really know why I ADR on lower doses now but the serotonin is my guess, feeling better than how I felt after ct, hoping to stabilise, how long should I wait before trying to increase the dose, as of now I have moderate anxiety which comes in waves, but this level is manageable if it doesn't worsen, moderate insomnia but I still can sleep few hours a night, with anxiety wave almost always comes elevated heart rate and discomfort in chest, but I know I am safe and won't die so it is not like when I was experiencing panic attacks before medication.

 

I try to think positive and am very hopeful that I will come out of it when I feel good for a moment, and thank You in advance for any help You may provide

[Vasherr]

I also am reading now that prolonged cannabis use may cause CNS sensitisation, as well as Covid, maybe that is the reason why I was so overly sensitive to low doses of antidepressants... I am at a total loss because I quit weed ct and didn't know it can also produce long lasting withdrawal symptoms, and I smoked for so long and from such a young age, cause I am 27 now.

[Vasherr]

I had to updose a little as symptoms became unbearable last night, now taking 6,8mg two times a day, hope to stabilise as I don't have any idea what is the appropriate dose with my Covid-modified tolerance...

[Kiasofia]

Welcome @Vasherr

From your signature it looks like you have been reacting badly to antidepressants before you got COVID also? And using benzos to manage? It is likely that you are among those who react badly to these drugs and should not have continued taking them. Quitting and restarting venlafaxin and changing doses can also cause symptoms. Especially anxiety. The important thing now is to stabilize on a dose and then in time taper off. Since you react badly to these drugs it is probably best to hold at your current dose, not increase.

 

What is withdrawal syndrome?

Dr. Joseph Glenmullen's withdrawal symptom checklist

How Psychiatric Drugs Remodel Your Brain 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization  

 

Adverse reactions to an antidepressant

 

Aside from a high quality fish oil and magnesium, be careful with supplements. Your central nervous system (CNS) has become sensitized from psychiatric drug use and can react unpredictably. Alcohol, caffeine, nicotine and other mind altering substances can make the condition worse.

Important topics about tests, supplements, treatments, diet

 

Here is our symptoms and self care section, you may find some useful ideas to help manage symptoms as you recover. 

Symptoms and self care topics 

 

Please edit your signature following these guidelines:

How to List Drug History in Signature

 

I recommend reading  Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker (interview) as well as A straight talking introduction to psychiatric drugs by Joanna Moncrieff to better understand these drugs and their effects. The Council for Evidence based Psychiatry also has a lot of good information.

 

This is your Introductory topic, where you can ask questions and connect with other members.  We're glad you found your way here. Please stay in touch and let us know how you are doing.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Kiasofia

[Vasherr]

Thanks for answering, I was trying to stabilise without increasing the dose but it was impossible due to the severity of the symptoms, I've made too big an updose and suffered from an adverse reaction so now I am trying to find a dose which will stabilise me a bit and then wait, I know You are not promoting such behaviour, but I have to be at least semi-stable to go to my psychiatrist and talk about a tapering plan, so he won't increase my dose or introduce new drugs... I've already read most of those topics and also watched Robert Whitaker's speeches on Youtube, it is so sad we are living in the world in which some people are perfectly fine with getting millions of people addicted to drugs for profit.

[Kiasofia]

Unfortunately it can take a few months to stabilize on a dose so trying different doses during the same month to find the "right" dose usually doesn't work.

 

Perhaps you have read this also:

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?

[Vasherr]

Yes, I will show him these articles, but sadly I don't know how will he react, he is rather old and I already have spoken with one psychiatrist in a hospital and he told me that withdrawal lasts for a week and I am having a relapse and should updose to 75mg, which I think would have killed me by adverse reaction 😜 Poland is like 30 years behind and even in developed countries there aren't so many prescribers that know about AD withdrawal judging from what I've read here and on other sites...

[Kiasofia]

It's not so important to get him to believe you as long as you avoid taking bad advice. Poland is not behind here. There is no country in the world where doctors /psychiatrists in general understand withdrawal and the damage these drugs can do. They believe what they are told by the drug companies: These are safe drugs and if a patient gets worse from taking them then they just need a higher dose or add in another drug. Very dangerous advice. 

[Vasherr]

This is so sad... And even more sad is the fact that every clip on Youtube of Robert Whitaker or any psychotropic drug critic for that matter is being silenced with 20k views or something like that, I hope we'll live to see the day when pharma and big tech will pay for that but I don't really expect that to happen. I even persuaded few of my colleagues to start taking AD's and now I had to tell them I was wrong and that they should try to stop taking them. It's like Alto said in one of the topics, we think we are way smarter than we really are

[Kiasofia]

I know...I'm also guilty of telling people that these drugs helped me and used to recommended them. Whitaker's books were published over 10 years ago. But maybe in 10 more years people will wake up.

 

Once you have stabilized (could take a while) you can learn more about tapering safely here:

Tips for tapering off venlafaxine (Effexor)

[Vasherr]

I would also like to ask about 2 things:

 

A- Do You have any experience regarding anesthesia, or maybe someone on the forum had some experience, because I don't know if I can safely go to the dentist office, I've read that lidocaine is psychoactive and no anesthesia is rather out of the question for me

 

B- This is rather silly question, I am pretty afraid to initiate sexual activity as it is very stimulating and I don't know if it can flare up WD symptoms, is there a topic on the forum on this?

 

 

[Kiasofia]

I don't know, but I found this thread:

 

The search function on this site doesn't work very well. To find things on the forum I find the easiest is to type "survivingantidepressants.org + what you're searching for" into a search engine.

[Vasherr]

@Kiasofia thank You very much, besides that today I slept rather well and troughout the day my symptoms weren't going up and down frantically, so I hope that I will be able to stabilise, because I want to talk with my psychiatrist about liquid formulation of venlafaxine, as immediate release tablets aren't available in Poland, so I can't make it on my own... Also I've seen on madinamerica, that there was an article in Psychological Medicine written by John Reed and Joanna Moncrief about AD harm, so maybe the world is ready to acknowledge us.

[Kiasofia]

I don't think venlafaxine comes in a liquid. Do you have the capsules with beads in them?

[Vasherr]

@Kiasofia No I have the version with one big tablet inside which I am crushing and then dividing between capsules, I've came to a conclusion that taking it 3 times a day would minimise dose dumping effect which seems to work. As to liquid formulation I've found instructions for pharmacy to prepare venla liquid so I think they can do it.

Venlafaxine Oral.pdf

[Vasherr]

Alternatively i will have to buy Gemini scale and weigh the tablet, because eyeballing it is surely asking for trouble

[Kiasofia]

Yes, do get a scale.

[Vasherr]

I would buy it right now, but sadly i don't have enough money until payday, which will be on 9th...

[Vasherr]

@Kiasofia Today is strange, for some time now I am worried that week of taking clorazepate could create dependence, and I don't really have any idea how to be sure, I wasn't taking it in high doses but every time I feel worse troughout the day I have an urge to take it, but maybe I'm imagining things... I guess now the only thing left to do is wait and see right?

[ChessieCat]

  

13 hours ago, Vasherr said:

Nobody wrote here for a long time but I must say that it warms my heart to read about improvement of life quality over long periods of time, even when tapering very slow, I am just at the start of my journey, but very hopeful that I too will see it to some comfortable point, and after reading @Rhiannon thoughts about microtapering I think I will try that method for a start, as I am very sensitive to AD's and think that it will be the safest choice for me. I hope everyone who wrote on this topic is doing well with their lives and wish You all the best

 

Have you seen this type of taper:

 

the-brassmonkey-slide-method-of-micro-tapering

 

[Vasherr]

@ChessieCat Yes I have seen it, sadly as of now I am not thinking about tapering, because I struggle to stabilise and am afraid that my week of use of benzodiazepines created dependence, and I don't know what to do... To be honest I am very much afraid...

[ChessieCat]

You have recently had Covid.  Even though you have "got over it", that is the virus is no longer active, your body has been put under a lot of stress fighting the virus and it may take a while for your body to recover completely from the virus.

[Vasherr]

@ChessieCat I get that, just afraid that I will go through ct benzo withdrawal, I read somewhere that even very short term use may cause dependence and as I now know my CNS is very sensitised...

[ChessieCat]

The more you worry about it the more stress you are putting on your body.  Try to take care of yourself and try not to worry too much.  Apart from stress being bad for you, what you are concerned about might not happen and then you will have worried for no reason and been miserable during that time.

[Vasherr]

@ChessieCat I am a little more stable now, from what I understand acute benzo withdrawal would be unbearable 24/7 so maybe this is a combination of AD and cannabis... I hope, because long ago I've read about benzo wd and its pretty horrific

 

I know that I am overthinking a bit but sadly can't help it, this covid rollercoaster really did a number on me as I had my stable dose which was suddenly thrown out the window...

 

The fact that I have to be work-ready in 3 days also doesn't help, hope that if I tell my boss I have long covid she will be understanding, cause I don't feel I will be able to work as productive as before this debacle.

 

Sorry to bother You but I just had to vent, thank You for Your support it's good to talk to someone who understands, my family and friends sadly do not

[Vasherr]

Yeah, spoke too soon yesterday... I really think I could be in benzo withdrawal cause symptoms are different than what I felt on too low AD dose, and they are ramping up... I don't know what to do, afraid to reinstate due to possibility of paradoxical reaction but this is getting unbearable fast, today I am feeling almost worse than I was feeling on 9,4mg, is it possible that I am imagining things? Should benzo dependency be possible after using it very sparsely troughout years and then day by day only for a week?

[Kiasofia]

What benzo were you taking, what dates and what dose? Can you fix your signature so it clearly shows date and dose changes of venlafaxine and benzo use. And remove any other text:

 

How to List Drug History in Signature

[Vasherr]

@Kiasofia hopefully it is a little more organised now... Alternatively is it possible that I'm experiencing adverse reaction to venlafaxine? Because when I decreased dose after week on 13,4mg some symptoms like really hard tremor and heart pounding lessened, also my sleep seems better, dreams aren't so vivid and strange.

 

This is so unusual, I know my tolerance for these drugs was low from the start of my second "treatment" but this is too much. I know I should accept what is happening, but from what I've read if this is an adverse reaction I won't be able to stabilise on current dose.

 

Thanks again for Your advice

[Kiasofia]

It's still confusing. Can you set it up like this:

 

Venlafaxine: date/dose, date/dose

Clorazepate: date/dose, date/dose

 

To determine if you are having an adverse reaction it is advised to start a symptoms journal. Make sure to take the dose at the exact same time every day. If your symptoms have a pattern then it is probably caused by something else that's done on a schedule, like taking venlafaxine (or consuming caffeine or other stimulating substance). If there is no pattern, then it is likely to be withdrawal symptoms. Whether it is withdrawal from lowering Venlafaxine or Clorazepate will be hard to say though.

Keep daily notes of drug schedule and symptoms to track patterns and progress

 

Do you take any supplements or other medications? When did you stop using cannabis?

[Vasherr]

@Kiasofia hope it is clearer now, it's pretty hard to think in this state.

 

I don't take any supplements as of now and stopped drinking anything besides water when this whole debacle started and I've read here that it can be stimulating.

 

I will start a journal to track symptoms, but regarding the pattern last two days seem to have one and its the same as when I was taking 13,5mg, which is that I feel "best" when I wake up at 6am to take my first dose, then gradually feel worse and worse which peaks at around 11:30 then feel rather the same, take my second dose at 14:00, until 20:30 when it slightly dissipates, same goes on at night but slightly lower in severity I think, I take my last dose at 22:00, sleep until 4 and then feel bad, but manage to sleep 1 or 2 more hours, and wake up at 6 to take pill and whole process starts again.

 

As per Cannabis I stoped smoking when I've got sick with Covid.

[Kiasofia]

What does this mean?: Feb 21 - 12mg 

 

So other than in 2019 your only benzo use was 7 days in January? (Can you add 2022 to your signature so this is clear.) It usually takes at least two weeks to develop dependency. Covid was also in January? And up until this time you used cannabis regularly? That's a lot for the body to adjust and deal with on top of changes in venlafaxine doses. It can take time for it all to settle down.

 

I think for now the most important is to try to see if any of your symptoms are caused by venlafaxine by doing a symptoms journal.

[Vasherr]

@Kiasofia I've corrected sig once more, I've been using benzo up to 2 times per month when needed, my psych told me this way I wouldn't form dependency, but I am not so sure now.

 

Yeah, I was smoking almost daily for years before 2018 when I started having panic attacks after smoking, then when I've settled on venlafaxine in 2019 stupid me started smoking again... I think You are right there are many changes for body to adjust to, I will start journaling tommorow and will hope for the best, hope my GP will prolong my sick leave, cause I can't work like this.

 

Thanks again for Your help, really I don't know what I would have done without this forum, I hope someday I will be able to repay the favor

 

[Vasherr]

I think i might have an explanation on why some days my after dose symptoms are milder and some days they are worse, but there definitely is a pattern.

 

The pill weighs 160mg and in this there is 37,5mg active ingredient so it is like 3 to 1 ratio of filler to AI. 

As I have to crush the pill and then weigh it there is high statistical probability that I end up with different amounts of AI per pill, I think I take somewhere between 10-14mg per day, and as venlafaxine is quickly metabolised it makes my serum concentration fluctuate, possibly above level that I can tolerate in worse days and below in better days, but WD doesn't have time to kick in in such short period of time.

 

That is my personal theory on what is happening. I thought about it today, because today I was feeling way worse than yesterday from 9 till 12:30 and coincidentally this is the time when venlafaxine peaks in serum concentration, and after my 14:00 dose I am again feeling that sxs are ramping up slowly.

[Vasherr]

A little update as I hadn't posted for a while, I think I have finally stabilised a bit, but I had to reduce dose, as instructed I was journaling and I've noticed that my sxs ramp up after dose and peak on serum peak and also they were the same as when I was on too high a dose but they were weaker, so I've gradually reduced and now am on 3,6mg 3 times a day and feel basically baseline like before Covid, I will stay on this dose for I don't know like two months or longer to be sure no new sxs arise and then start to think about tapering

[Vasherr]

As always I've spoken to soon in a sense, I still think reducing was a good idea as I feel better but better is surely not good 😜

 

I've been having flashes of anxiety with strong heart beats, feet freezing and half of the day left side of my face feels numb, but it is in manageable range, so I am bracing for long hold on current dose which is more like 3x3,525mg as I've lately calculated. Being on management position doesn't really help as well as having a co-worker who doesn't give a **** I am feeling bad and expects me to work normally...

 

But I have to do it as my pdoc of course thinks that 11mg is a homeopatic dose xD (60% sert occupancy) so sick leave is out of the question, pretty saddened that pharmacy can't make a liquid as "it isn't available in the system" but I have decided I will buy OraPlus from US and do it myself as it is sadly unavailable in Poland.

 

I really hope that I will get to see the day when pharma companies are required by law to provide broad range of dosing options because I am rather sure that if 3 years ago I was started on 5mg of sertraline that this would be enough to aleviate my symptoms and I would have a much lower dose to taper, wouldn't shake my CNS by all these adverse reactions and wouldn't be on venlafaxine which has shortest half life and can't be made to liquid in XR form and of course this is the only form available xD

 

I want to end on a more positive note so I will say that I am happy to have my girlfriend, she is very supportive and doesn't dismiss all of the withdrawal information I had to give her for her to understand my condition, and I have found a therapist who posted on her facebook page about antidepressants being poison, so in a month or two I think I will book an appointment with her to check if she can provide some on the ground support.

 

[Vasherr]

@Kiasofia I wanted to ask if feeling better after reduction is a sign of taking too high a dose, I am determined to stay on current dosage and wait for stabilisation but if my symptoms are due to an adverse reaction to the drug wouldn't that destabilise me instead of stabilising?

 

Even if I was to cut I was thinking in realms of 0,1mg daily dosage or something like that 😛

 

I am asking because from the moment of my stupid decision to raise dosage to 13mg over a month ago each time I have cut it I was feeling better with gradual worsening after drug got to a steady state but not to before the cut level, so I don't know if I am not still above the level I should be.

 

Besides that I surely acknowledge I am indeed better than a month ago as I am able to work and function, in a little handicapped way but still.

 

Thanks for advice