Vasherr: 2.5 years on Venlafaxine

[Vasherr]

Anyone there?

 

I know all mods are very busy as many people are in need of help, but I'm afraid to destabilise my system even further, I don't experience reaction as when I was taking more, wanted to make sure in time I will stabilise if the bad reaction is not severe

[Vasherr]

I am going to wait to the end of the week and try a little cut, because I am having symptoms which i had when on higher dose, but with less intensity, so I am rather confident that they are bad reactions to the drug and not withdrawal, 0.1mg cut shouldn't be too taxing even if I am wrong so fingers crossed...

[Neon]

hey how are you doing these days? hope all is well and you are feeling better.

all the best, Neon

[Vasherr]

Hi @Neon, thanks for asking, well I do feel better than let's say in February or March, but still rather bad, don't really come here often as I've read all there is to know about our illness.

 

I am able to work which is a blessing, as without it I would end up on the streets.

 

Lately I have gotten back to climbing with my girlfriend and we went inline skating two times, here's to hoping I will be able to play volleyball some day soon...

 

All in all I gotta say that it is better, just better is far far away from mediocre even 😜

 

It's really nice that You've asked I appreciate it very much

[Neon]

I am really happy to hear that. working, doing things in your free time, that is big achievements! I trust you will get there

Love, Neon

[Vasherr]

I haven't written in here for some time, as I thought I was slowly getting better, but from yesterday I have waves of feeling really bad, buzzing in my chest, sweating, feeling very uneasy, dry mouth.

 

I like to think that it is still better than in February or March, but can't help but think that it will get worse as it is worsening slowly...

 

No changes in meds I am on 10mg total venlafaxine split in 3 doses evenly throughout the day.

 

I am keeping my fingers crossed that this is just a minor setback, but some reassurance that it is normal would be very nice

 

Thanks!

[Vasherr]

Was pretty hesistant to post an update as every time i say that I am getting better I seem to get instantly worse 😜 but here goes:

 

Thursday was the worst day until now and it is slowly getting better day by day, as it is in WD waay slower than I would've liked but I am very happy that it is getting better, I've noticed that it was a common theme when I've reinstated and went lower in dose to the dose that my body was able to tolerate, I had one day of feeling like **** then slowly getting better for around a week and then again really bad day and again slowly better throughout the week.

 

So if it really is my pattern or something I've got to ready myself for getting worse in a few days and improve again (but I really hope I will just get back to baseline, hopefully better baseline after this wave ;P)

 

Maybe someday someone will read this and it will give them hope when battling similiar circumstances, I would be very happy if it does

 

Wishing all of us a lifelong window!

V.

[Vasherr]

Another day of slow improvement, keeping my fingers crossed it will continue, or at least that if a pattern like I said yesterday is real my day of feeling bad will not be as bad as Thursday

 

Also the timing of this is really bizarre as me and my girlfriend were supposed to go on holidays to the mountains on Friday, but due to all of this happening we have rescheduled for tomorrow, so I hope I will be able to at least get out of our hotel for a walk, and also hope that maybe mountain air will do me some good, normally I am living in a city, it has a park, where I go for a walk if feeling bad, but even in the middle of it You can still hear cars driving on the highway.

 

Really hopeful that it will continue improving, this wave got me by surprise, but I think that I am not the only one that was hoping for gradual stabilisation, without any hiccups.

 

Lifelong window for all!

V.

 

[tntd]

Hi Vasherr,

 

I really hope you've been able to make it to the mountains and are enjoying your holiday. It sounds lovely. 

 

You probably know this but good stress can cause WD sxs to increase too because your body only sees stress as stress. Excitement and anxiety are so closely entwined it makes sense that your excitement over going on holiday could cause an increase in WD sxs. I'm hoping that it has been a short little bump though and you are feeling better already. 

 

It sounds like you've read a lot about WD's which I think is great. I know I find educating myself on my situation always helps me deal with it a bit better. 

 

I hope you are having a wonderful time!!

 

Hugs and healing,

 

TNDT

 

 

[Vasherr]

Hi,

 

we have managed to get to the mountains and I am enjoying this trip as much as I can, still slowly getting better day after day, I have some occasional dark thoughts, but judging by experience it should go back to "meh" eventually, hoping it will go past that, maybe to... "average" or something that would be nice for sure.

 

Yeah, I have read almost everything there is on SA about withdrawal, I am the kind of person that can spontaneously wonder about some strange things like "do bees sleep at night" and have to check it on the spot, so had to know everything possible about WD as soon as it hit me.

 

I am also very fortunate for my girlfriend, I don't really know how would I do this without her, she is very understanding and accepted that it's WD and it can't be helped other than by time, so she is patient and supporting, but feels she should be able to do more, I am trying to make sure she knows that she is the best and no more is possible or necessary.

 

Wishing us all a lifelong window!

V.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and bees do sleep at night

[tntd]

Hi V,

 

I'm soooo glad you were able to make it to the mountains and are enjoying as best you can. It is also super wonderful that your girlfriend is supportive. I think that it helps when we are informed and so can help others understand what is going on. Of course you are right that they have to accept what you are saying is true. Having a supportive partner is so wonderful though. I'm very happy for you. 

 

I have to say that I'm like that too. I'm constantly looking up random things because I just think of them and don't know. Unfortunately my short term memory is really suffering currently so I often forget what I looked up, that I looked it up, or even that I wanted to look it up, LOL 🤣. Certainly makes life interesting!!

 

Wishing you a wonderful holiday and continued healing,

 

Hugs,

 

TNTD

[Vasherr]

Update:

 

Thought I was getting better, but its now third day of getting worse, it's so strange that I get over a week of linear improvement and then its like "other way we go" and I get the same but to the other side...

 

And like in March and earlier I notice that I get worse after taking my dose, up to 4-5 hours after dosing and then slowly get better when supposedly drug level gets lower, didn't really get any info back from mods about that so sorry for tagging but I want to know if this is poopout? @brassmonkey Last time when this happened to me when I have updosed too high after reinstatement reducing the dose made me feel better, but I don't want to do anything rash, so to not make myself worse...

 

I know it just could be a wave, but I am consistently feeling worse after dosing which is often the question asked by Alto when people report feeling bad, so maybe it is important. Even when I was getting better day by day feeling worse after dosing was a constant.

 

I know that patience is key, but if this is really adverse reaction to dosing, from what I have read it would be detrimental to wait.

 

Thanks for advice

V.

[brassmonkey]

Feeling worse after dosing is pretty common and should clear up as you get lower in dose.

 

If you are feeling overall improvements despite the waves, then it is not poopout.  Poopout will show a steady decline with a few windows along the way.

[Vasherr]

Well I think I can throw my theory out the window then... 

 

Besides that today I felt worst 6 hours after dosing so it would rather make sense that it was WD and not an adverse reaction.

 

I can't really say I am seeing improvement as I was feeling subpar but stable from April up until this wave or whatever it is, I don't know maybe I have to take a sick leave again and tough it out, it is very discouraging that I was seeing improvement for a week and now seem to be getting worse day by day.

 

Maybe when I will go out of this wave I will see some improvement.

 

Thanks for Your input and wish You all the best!

V.

[Vasherr]

@Altostrata

 

Sorry to bother You but I feel that I am out of options...

 

Since my last post I have managed to get a little better and decided to make a little cut, around 2% or 3% I have felt better almost instantly, and it continued for 10 days but since today morning I am spitting blood, probably from upper GI tract bleeding, I have went to the doctor and he has confirmed that and told me that it isn't serious because the amount of blood is low and I don't vomit blood (yet, but I have a pretty serious nausea). Apart from that I am feeling really bad, have pains in my chest, pounding heart, occasional cold sweat spell.

 

I have searched on the internet already and have found that ADs can cause GI bleeding and my question is: what I am supposed to do with this? Is this a WD symptom and I am supposed to believe that it will pass, or should I lie that I am vomiting blood to go to a hospital, where there is a high chance that I will be taken off ven cold turkey... I am really afraid, because I don't feel that this is "nothing serious", it feels really serious and strange.

 

I know that probably Your guess is as good as mine, but maybe You have encountered something like this before and can help me even a little.

 

P.S. doctor did some basic examination, but I feel that it would produce same results if my condition was benign or serious.

 

Thanks in advance.

V.

[Altostrata]

On 11/26/2022 at 4:24 PM, Vasherr said:

I am spitting blood, probably from upper GI tract bleeding

 

I am sorry,  I don't know anything about this. If the antidepressant caused it, doctors should be able to see the damage. You need medical care.

 

I have not heard anyone else here report this symptom.

[Vasherr]

@Altostrata I went to the doctor's and I am trying to find the cause of this bleeding, but had another question regarding tapering.

 

I just now realised that in the info sheet of my venlafaxine there is information that original capsules are the ones that melt in intestine and not in the stomach, and I was using the normal ones from the start of this madness, meaning February. Do You think that changing to intestinal capsules would help?

[Vasherr]

@AltostrataI have decided that I will try, as I am desperate and it seems logical that if I have a problem in upper GI I should try to irritate this part as little as I can and from what Ive read drugs are absorbed in small intestine anyways, the only problem I think is if it will be the same amount, because if it will be higher it could be painful for me, but no to way to know other than trying.

 

Will keep You informed if it worked, if it will maybe changing pills to intestine version would help people that have gi problems in wd. I hope it will work

 

V.

[Vasherr]

Okay, I will journal what happened so I don't forget.

 

Yesterday afternoon was frankly feeling the best in a long time, I am dosing 3x day every 8h so afternoon dose was the first in intestinal capsule, it also meant that I have somewhat reduced temporarily, because intestinal capsule should start working after around 2h, I don't know, maybe it means I have to reduce as today morning and afternoon is worse, but not as bad as it was before changing to intestinal, so I have decided to stay on the current dose and observe, if I will decide that I am having adverse reaction to this dose I will reduce slightly, as it is possible that intestinal delivery means that more of the drug is absorbed, because stomach acid surely is able to destroy at least some of the drug if the capsule disolves in stomach.

 

As to my bleeding problem, I have spat blood only once at 3 am, and it was a little, so either intestinal is really helping, or this temporal reduction due to late absorbtion helped, if it is the latter I will know in the coming days as I will continue to bleed.

 

I also done bloodwork, morphology, CRP, liver etc and everything is looking perfect, as expected, but if it is due to venlafaxine I would rather think that it is a reaction to the drug and not WD...

 

Tuesday I have another appointment and possibly will be reffered to endoscopy, so we'll see if it will shine some more light on this matter.

 

V.

[Altostrata]

I have no idea what your bleeding might be, and I cannot answer your question about venlafaxine.

[Vasherr]

So, helicobacter positive, I am pretty much crushed by this, I can't tolerate 10mg of venlafaxine and I am supposed to tolerate 2 AB's and PPI which I can't take due to its rising of AD level in serum.

 

I think I will try this first

https://www.naturalmedicinejournal.com/journal/successful-eradication-helicobacter-pylori-over-counter-products

74% eradication rate is as good as AB's and maybe I will tolerate this easier... Really hope so

[Altostrata]

Suggest you get treatment for the h. pylori infection, that is a far likely cause for your bleeding than venlafaxine.

[Vasherr]

I agree, but have to say that changing delivery method to intestinal helped a lot, so venlafaxine wasn't the cause but surely was adding to the misery

 

As of now I am slowly introducing every food, probiotic and anything that was clinically proven to inhibit or eradicate pylori, and seeing some improvement, I will post links later, but I was shocked that for example l. reuteri probiotic has almost as high eradication rate as triple therapy with 2 antibiotics.... No idea why it isn't the first line choice, but maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

 

If natural methods will fail I will try antibiotics, but it is a last resort method, Poland has high clarythromycin resistance%, so there is only quad therapy with bismuth, ppi(which can be changed to H2 blocker), metronidazole(which can be changed to tinidazole, less sides) an tetracycline or quinolone triple therapy and after reading antibiotics thread and some more on the internet I would rather die than take a quinolone.

 

Up until now I have introduced broccoli sprouts 50g daily, olive oil 3x day, yogurt and kefir once daily and I am eating all my food steamed, waiting for delivery of l. Reuteri, mastic gum, ginger capsules, black seed powder, oregano oil capsules and maybe some more which I don't remember, I know I have to introduce these things slowly due to my sensitised system.

 

At first as I wrote earlier I was crushed, but after some thinking I came to a conclusion that it is not so bad, there is a problem to be solved and it is solvable, it would be much worse if my problem was venlafaxine intolerance or withdrawal, because there is nothing to be done with this but endure.

 

V.

 

[Vasherr]

I've gotten Covid again while being on antibiotics for h pylori, I feel that same is happening again as last year, I am getting adverse reaction to my dose of venlafaxine...

 

What am I supposed to do, I can't go through it again, I've almost killed myself last time, should I reduce?

[frasier23]

I was on efexor (venlafaxine) 150mg for 2 years.

 

My experience from quitting was:

1. Once you start redosing all kind of symptoms can appear and doesnt necessary correlate with the amount.

2. On the lower doses (less than 37,5) I was taken beads and I remember on the absolute lowest doses (maybe 0-10mg) I started to take them only when scary symptoms appeared. So If i did have a bad symptom (I had a lot of lightnings and other symptoms I dont remember anymore) I took som beads. I was desperate to get off and I believe thats why I started with this strategy. I also tried different amount of beads  to see which lowest amount of beads that handled my symptom. This is NOT an advice Im just telling how I did.

3. If you can try to exercise  every time you feel bad (go outside walking/running)         

 

Good LUCK

[Vasherr]

Hi,

 

@Altostrata @brassmonkey

I think I'm in dire need of help. 2 weeks ago out of nowhere I've developed what I think is poop out, gradually I've gotten worse to the point of having constant elevated BP of 140/90 which I never had, constant low grade tachycardia, unreal anxiety which I didn't have for a year and internal tremor, which I had only when I was taking too much venla.

 

When it happened I was on 7,5 mg, I reduced pretty massively to 5,35 mg and experienced a marginal improvement is it possible that I have this version of poop out in which receptors are downregulated as much as they can and there is no dose on which I could stabilise? Because if it isn't that how is it possible that I've reduced this much and don't feel markedly worse?

 

Please tell me what should I do, do I fast taper to zero, hold and observe? Because after each reduction I experience a short time of being better and then deteriorate quickly.

 

V.

[brassmonkey]

Poopout does not happen "over night". It comes on very slowly over a matter of months and is very hard to detect. It also does not happen while tapering. This is sounding like a bad wave combined with long covid.

 

What has your tapering schedule been for the last year? 

[Vasherr]

Thank You for Your answer @brassmonkey but I am sure something happened, cause I've opted for fast taper and I am now on 1,35mg and it seems like after each reduction I feel a little better but it keeps getting gradually worse until the next reduction which has the same effect...

 

Surely if the problem was withdrawal I would be getting worse with each cut right?

 

I really think that my body just doesn't accept venlafaxine anymore because I don't see any other explanation for what is happening to me.

 

As to my reduction from over 9mg to 7,5mg I was microcutting without any problems as no withdrawal symptoms were present.

 

TRIGGER WARNING

 

Sorry for keeping You waiting but I was fighting for my life here, before I started cutting I was ready to kill myself it was this bad...

 

I know I've requested help but I don't know if there is anything that You can do for me, but thanks for trying anyways, I hope it will get better or something, but I feel that its the end of the line for me.

[Vasherr]

TRIGGER WARNING

 

I don't know why I am writing this, maybe for posterity or something, maybe I want for something to be left of me when it will be over.

 

Starting with venlafaxine - my reductions had a positive effect, I am not in constant hell anymore, feel pretty bad though, I am now on 1,14mg.

 

As to what happened with sudden intolerance I have a theory. As I stated when this nightmare started I was addicted to weed for years and smoked almost daily also drank and then took clorazepate for hangover so my theory is that dependence for weed and maybe benzo sensitised me the first time when I had this happen 2 years ago when I suddenly had collosal adverse reaction to my 37,5mg dose of venlafaxine and had to reduce to around 11mg to even be able to function. I've quit using weed and benzo on the spot 2 years ago but I was surely dependent on weed and I've read that weed actually works on GABA receptors also it is possible it also made easier for me to get dependent on benzo maybe. I've only realised this now because now when it happened again I took a few doses of benzo and they made me feel worse so I am sensitised to them as well. But for example while I was taking it a red spot on my hand which was terribly itchy disappeared, but now as I've stopped it reappeared so seems like withdrawal symptom. I was taking a low dose of 0,5mg clorazepate which is around the same in diazepam. So the theory is that weed/benzo withdrawal sensitised me to my dose of venlafaxine, it happened 2 times and I don't really know if and when it'll happen again so I am terrified. I regret taking these few doses of benzo because for sure if I am dependent it wasn't a good idea, but I didn't know and was really desperate.

 

As to the trigger warning I want it to be known for any medical professional that ever reads this that if I stop logging onto the forum that means that I weren't able to cope with this absolute nightmare and killed myself. I really don't want to do this and frankly don't know if I'll be able to even if I will feel really bad, but I keep getting worse and I am afraid I am not a kind of person that can see that it is only getting worse and hope that sometime in the future it will get better.

 

I am not yet at this point and as of now I hope I will never be, but I had to get this off my chest.

 

V.

[Vasherr]

To expand on the benzo topic, I took 2,5mg on 05.02 and 5 mg on 08.02, but I was still taking around 6mg venlafaxine then so I couldn't tell if I felt worse after that, because I was still feeling very bad due to inability to tolerate venlafaxine.

 

Now 15.03 I took 0,5mg and immediately felt worse so stopped, 18.03 to yesterday I've felt better but today its getting worse, and I am afraid of how bad it'll get. At least now I know that all this time my inability to stabilise was due to benzo withdrawal and now I can't reinstate because I no longer can tolerate the drug. Sad part is I knew 2 years ago that something is wrong and suspected benzo and was told to ignore it rather then reinstate as I was taking it for a week, but clorazepate is metabolised to nordiazepam which has a half life of 60-200 hours so to be fair one dose can put someone in dependency, the drug is in the system for so long. 

 

I can't take it anymore, I am getting worse and worse, if I would have known that I was in benzo withdrawal I wouldn't have taken it as more than 2 years passed since my last dose, but I did so it was like a failed reinstatement, and everyone gets even worse after that. I don't know if I should try even lower dose reinstatement as this benzo thing makes me unable to take venlafaxine. I know it sounds weird but it is true from 08.02-16.02 I've reduced from 7,5mg to 1,35mg and felt better, after my post on 16.02 I've made some additional cuts, but was doing it much slower and on 10.03 I was down to 1,14mg, still weren't feeling the best but it was manageable. Please don't tell me what I am feeling right now is due to these cuts because it would take some cosmic proportions coincidence for it to happen right as I took benzo.

 

I pray that there is life after death, because all my life is just suffering and I need it to have some kind of meaning.

 

 

[Vasherr]

I know that this is highly unadvisable but I feel so bad now and am 100% sure that I am in benzo withdrawal that I've decided to try even lower reinstatement on 0,05mg.

 

My logic is that if 1mg would have been much too high of a dose I would have felt REALLY bad after taking it (like people that report instant panic attacks and stuff), but I didn't I felt worse for sure but some things were better like my paresthesia on my face and cold feet and I didn't have agitation and anxiety like today.

 

I know that this is risky and to be frank if I'd have known that I was in benzo withdrawal for 2 years before I took it in Feb and now, I wouldn't be trying it, but it is too late and I fear that if I get markedly worse I am going to do something drastic so in my eyes I have nothing to lose...

[FindRest]

Are you saying you lowered the Venlafaxine to .05 or that you reinstated the benzo to that amount?

[Vasherr]

Reinstated benzo, but it seems it also makes me feel worse, so I don't think that I should continue, if only I would have known I was in withdrawal from benzo I wouldn't have taken it in Feb and kindle myself... 

 

I am so done with this, this isn't life.

[Vasherr]

I've updated my signature to show these recent developements. I should have listened to my instinct 2 years ago when I've thought that I got dependent on benzo and should have gone on it then.

[FindRest]

In my opinion, it’s more likely your rapid taper of Venlafaxine that is causing you problems. I know you may think you were previously experiencing Venlafaxine intolerance (or poopout or an adverse reaction). I say this based on watching many others go through something similar along with my own personal experience. The last 10mg or so of Venlafaxine is notorious for being the most difficult part of the taper, by far, with many unable to drop more than about .3 mg (not a typo) every 6-8 weeks. You went from 7.5 mg to 1.14 mg in two months. That is a HUGE drop. 
 

I believe you have destabilized your sensitive CNS from the Venlafaxine rapid taper.
 

On 2/17/2024 at 8:14 AM, Vasherr said:

cause I've opted for fast taper and I am now on 1,35mg and it seems like after each reduction I feel a little better but it keeps getting gradually worse until the next reduction which has the same effect...

 

This pattern is common after any drop in Venlafaxine, even if it’s too much and destabilizing. The first few days it seems like things are better, then the fall starts to happen. Those few days of “better” are misleading. Even after people CT off a large dose, those first few days or even weeks are strangely “better” before the bottom drops out later on. I think you are experiencing something similar.

 

If it were me, I’d either hold and stop making any more changes to any drug and give my cns time to recoup (could take several months), or I would consider updosing the Venlafaxine a small amount and then hold for several months. 
 

Often, the worst thing one can do is to continue making changes in multiple medications or even rapid changes up and down in one medication. What your CNS needs is stability. When we get to a place like where you are (cns instability) it’s only natural to want to change things to try and get some relief. However, this often backfires. Holding has been the best thing I have done through these last 4 years. I have held 3-4 months several times, and this last drop from 9 beads to 8 beads (each bead of mine is .3 mg) has left me holding even longer than that. 
 

I am not a moderator so you may want to wait for one of them to respond. 

Edited March 22 by FindRest

[Vasherr]

I thought that I would get a response like this and don't get me wrong, I am very grateful that anyone responded to me but I really know what I am talking about, this fast reduction brought me from reading on suicide forum on how to hang myself and searching for a suitable tree, eating almost nothing and not being able to go for a walk even to being able eat normally, play computer games, watch YouTube and stuff.

 

I only felt worse after taking benzo and I think I just have to let it get out of my system and endure whatever it will bring.

 

And I say I know what I am talking about per venlafaxine intolerance because this is the second time this happened, 2 years ago I had the same situation - I was perfectly stable on 37,5mg and suddenly one day I couldn't tolerate it anymore, and I know that these were the symptoms of too high a dose because when I was reinstated on venlafaxine on too high a dose years prior I had the same symptoms, which went away after huge reductions.

 

I know that You may find it hard to believe because it doesn't fit neatly into standard blueprint of withdrawal, but one size fits all thinking is why we're all here on the forum.

 

I really am grateful that You care and answered but I am not updosing, the only thing I have to decide is if it is possible to stabilise on benzo but I don't think it is after such a long time.