tollah: About to start next step in quitting paxil after 20 years

[tollah]

Hi everyone, thank you so much for all the information I have already learned from this site.

I was addicted to drugs in my teens and early 20's (about 10 years). When I finally quite I ended up having debilitating panic attacks and depression which eventually saw me off work and back home for 3 years. I was prescribed zoloft (eventually 300mg) but ended up switching to effexor after I had a series of seizures (never had a definite diagnosis but was taken of the zoloft). I reacted horribly to effexor and was switched to Paxil, up to 60mg, and at some point have just been on it at 20mg. I was always nevervous about trying to quit, terrified of becoming non-functioning once again. Anyways, in 2021 I decided to start to try and quit... I became tired of worrying about always having a prescription filled because just one day without would always result in horrible brain zaps.

So I thought I knew enough and was careful and decreased from 20 to 15mg. I had about a 2 week period of mostly physical symptoms (headache, fatigue) and honestly don't remember any mental symptoms. After about 6 months (after 20 years I was in no rush) I dropped to 10mg for about another 6 months with about the same results.

In August of last year everything changed when I then dropped to 5mg. Very quickly I ended up having anxiety attacks, and being extremely "off". It is hard to explain. This resulted in me not taking a new job, which I thought was the trigger for the anxiety, but things stayed the same with anxiety as well as periods of weeping, feeling lost, not knowing who I was, confusion, and overall fear. I, as well as my doctor, assumed I was in relapse and I reinstated the last dose of 10mg. Unfortunately things didn't just resolve themselves. That is when I began researching and decided I was in post acute withdrawal. I have been getting better, it seems, until I have a stressful event (which my life is full of right now) which I'm sure triggers a neuro emotion and then takes about 2 to 3 days to come out of. One of the most difficult things is that I end up not being able to sleep (which is very uncommon for me) and I actually feel like I am strung out on drugs (haven't been for at least 20 years!!). Started seeing a therapist which has been helpful. To be honest it took some time for my wife to believe this was happening and she is now onboard. Even this morning (i have been going through a wave) I had to ask her if she believed me. Anyways, my doctor gets it to a point... he found me a compound pharmacy to begin tapering again. However, even though I explained it as best as I could and sent him info from the Royal College of Psychiatrists (showing a 10 per cent taper based on last dose) he told them 10 per cent reduction on initial dose. This meant I had to talk to the pharmacy, explain everything to them and have them reach out to the doctor again for a new prescription. Anyway, I talk to them tomorrow and am pretty sure I will be starting at 9mg in the next week. After this weekends wave I am super scared again. 

That's it for now. Thank you to everyone on this site for sharing, for giving me the confidence to advocate for myself with my doctor and have hope that there is a way out.

[Onmyway]

Dear @tollah

welcome to SA. thank you for completing your signature. I am so glad that you are standing up for yourself and have made it a point to learn about this. Also congratulations in being sober for 20 years! That must be quite a struggle so you have my admiration! 
 

If you are still in a wave I would advise that you don't lower your dosage for a while. If you are in no hurry to quit for other reasons - i.e. adverse drug effects, for example, I would stay on this dose for another month. Given your history of multiple drugs over the years (not just recreational) in your case I would be extremely cautious. I would expect your brain to be super sensitized and there is some evidence for it that you feel the zaps even if you skip a dose. [After 15+ years of citalopram I could feel when I skipped a dose as well]. The more our brain has been battered by drugs and skipping doses or cold turkey quitting, the more hypersensitive it becomes  over the years. 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/27800-hypersensitivity-and-kindling/

 

At the lower doses, things get much harder and you may need to go even slower than 10%. Have a look at this thread and especially the graph - it helps illustrate why a hyperbolic tapering schedule is better than a linear one and why things get much harder at the lower doses. 

 

I would also read the links in this thread if you haven't yet. 

 

Please take care of yourself!
OMW

[WeLiveInHope]

Hi @tollah

 

Newbie (ish) myself here, and also an ex paroxetine user (full drug history can be found in my introduction post here)

Paroxetine taper is extremely difficult as you know, so I just wish to say good luck. FYI Some people have found it easier to come off Paroxetine and other short acting ADs with a ‘bridge’ to fluoxetine while others haven’t. There is a wealth of information here on SA that I hope helps you as it did me.

 

Best.

 

[Onmyway]

Thanks for stopping by to say hello @WeLiveInHope

 

Just an FYI, we do not recommend the Prozac bridge to lower rates of withdrawal. Some people do not get enough relief by switching to prozac and at the same time suffer severe withdrawal from paroxetine. We would only recommend it as a last resort if a very slow taper fails. 

 

Here is more info on it

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/19373-the-prozac-switch-or-bridging-with-fluoxetine/

 

OMW

[WeLiveInHope]

1 minute ago, Onmyway said:

Thanks for stopping by to say hello @WeLiveInHope

 

Just an FYI, we do not recommend the Prozac bridge to lower rates of withdrawal. Some people do not get enough relief by switching to prozac and at the same time suffer severe withdrawal from paroxetine. We would only recommend it as a last resort if a very slow taper fails. 

 

Here is more info on it

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/19373-the-prozac-switch-or-bridging-with-fluoxetine/

 

OMW

 Ah. Thanks for that. Yes, my own was as a last resort also.

[tollah]

@OnmywayThanks for your response. You mention staying at my dose for another month, I have been at 10mg almost 6 months. Do you think that is not long enough to re-establish some sort of equilibrium? To be honest though your comment made me stop and realize I am going on vacation in 2 weeks and certainly don't want to start the next stage of my taper while away. I just checked and have enough of my current dose for another month so I am ok to go away and not make any changes. I actually will be picking up my first three taper doses (9mg, 8.1mg and 7.29 mg - 4 weeks per step) tomorrow so I can start when ever I chose once I'm back. I will take a look at what you have linked to above (very interested in hypersensitivity).

I will keep posting with more info...

[tollah]

@WeLiveInHopeThanks for reaching out... I look forward to reading about your journey and posting when I can. I have been lurking here for a few months and it is such a great feeling (overwhelmingly emotional) to actually have people in dialogue with similar situations. I don't know anyone personally that has been on these meds as long as I have.

It's funny, I can remember being quite an advocate of SSRIs in the past, as I still maintain that without them I wouldn't of made it... I just wish someone would have steered me in the direction of stopping so many years ago.

[LostInCanada]

Hey @tollahglad you have joined SA. I am at 5mg of paxil and holding. The key is don't rush. I might be at 5mg for a year...it just depends how long my withdrawal symptoms last from the quick reduction my psychiatrist put me on. I had to reinstate at 5mg so now I will wait. The video Onmyway gave you is excellent. My psychiatrist tried to do the Prozac bridge with me and it made me worse. Glad your wife is on board now. Sorry we are in this mess together. Hope you have a good compounding pharmacy in Toronto. I am in Victoria BC but have talked to Terrance at Pace Pharmacy downtown location Toronto. Just in case you weren't aware, stick to the same brand of drug...if you need to switch brands do so carefully. The site has info about that. I am using APO (Apotex) 10 mg cut in half. You got this.👍

[Onmyway]

1 hour ago, tollah said:

@OnmywayThanks for your response. You mention staying at my dose for another month, I have been at 10mg almost 6 months. Do you think that is not long enough to re-establish some sort of equilibrium? To be honest though your comment made me stop and realize I am going on vacation in 2 weeks and certainly don't want to start the next stage of my taper while away. I just checked and have enough of my current dose for another month so I am ok to go away and not make any changes. I actually will be picking up my first three taper doses (9mg, 8.1mg and 7.29 mg - 4 weeks per step) tomorrow so I can start when ever I chose once I'm back. I will take a look at what you have linked to above (very interested in hypersensitivity).

I will keep posting with more info...

You should start from a place that is as stable as possible. One of the reasons is that you can then observe how your taper will go and establish a pattern of changes - for example, if I drop 10% I would get a really good mood for a few days and then 4-6 days in WD symptoms would start and would go for two weeks and slowly get back to normal. Also, if something goes horribly wrong you would know whether that was from the taper or an extension of the previous wave. If it is from the taper you could quickly updose slightly. 

 

If you are not yet stable that also means that your brain needs to make some more adjustments. While you may be able to go on fumes for a while, at some point things will catch up. Our advice is always to go as slow as possible so that your symptoms are bearable and allow you to function and not be more miserable than you have to. While there are some drugs that have horrible side effects and might cause organ damage etc., paxil is not one of those (as far as we know), so no reason to make yourself miserable just to speed up. Enjoy your vacation. 

 

OMW

[tollah]

 @LostInCanada

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not rushing is key...it's funny, when I went from 20 to 15 I thought I was being so conservative! And the drop from 10 to 5 kicked my butt, I was certain I had relapsed into panic attacks which was a huge fear i had before trying to taper. Learning that it was withdrawal was a double edged sword, happy to know I wasn't relapsed but terrified at realizing how much more difficult this would be. Between my addictions/depression/anxiety I spent years focusing on recovery and honestly thought I was done. Sorry I'm just rambling a bit...it is just so nice to connect. I'll write more when I can.

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LostInCanada]

Happy to connect as well. This is such a learning curve for sure. I have to keep telling myself going slow minimizes the damage. It makes so much sense that the whole body has to keep recalibrating in sections so we just have to give it time to do the job right. Talk again soon. 

[WeLiveInHope]

8 hours ago, tollah said:

@WeLiveInHopeThanks for reaching out... I look forward to reading about your journey and posting when I can. I have been lurking here for a few months and it is such a great feeling (overwhelmingly emotional) to actually have people in dialogue with similar situations. I don't know anyone personally that has been on these meds as long as I have.

It's funny, I can remember being quite an advocate of SSRIs in the past, as I still maintain that without them I wouldn't of made it... I just wish someone would have steered me in the direction of stopping so many years ago.

Thank you for sharing.

I think we all have all sorts of feelings about not knowing the dangers of these drugs before use or even during use. I only found out about the possible congenital affects to a baby from carbamazepine after 10 years on it! The ‘medical’ industry has a whole lot to answer for. One day, many generations will wonder how ever we came to destroying people’s lives like this. 
 

Also, like you, I don’t know any one in-person that has experienced withdrawals affects as I have. However, as I talk to people like us, I realise they might have and are not aware of it. I also realised many people are on similar type of journeys but may not share it with their peers. I certainly don’t. And, I don’t because I fear of any potential influence or harm they may come to as a result of listening to my experiences. It’s both silly and egotistical of me. Anyway, my point is I think there are more of us around us than we realise. 

Take the best of care.

[WeLiveInHope]

@tollahAlso, definitely take your time with it for sure. In hindsight, I realised my own slow taper from Paroxetine was not slow enough. 

 

Best again, and enjoy your holiday! 
 

 

[tollah]

Can't seem to shake this wave that started over a week ago. Problems sleeping, constant ruminating, sinking feeling in my stomach that won't quit. It feels like I have been on the verge of tears all day. It is so hard because, as all of us do, I have really things in my life causing me stress but they are exaggerated when I'm like this and the feelings pull me in. I'm writing from work where I'm just trying to make it to the end of my day...it's weird because I went to bed last night not feeling bad at all but from the time I woke up before my alarm until know it has just been a low level anxiety throughout my body and mind. Hoping when I get home that i can begin to shake it off with a walk with the dogs and making dinner for when the wife comes home. I find these activities help ground me. If anyone reads this thanks for just letting me vent.

I know this will end soon and be nothing but a memory....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LostInCanada]

Remember it is okay to feel and you are safe. Try to take some belly breaths. Remember all the things that you have done today. Applaud your efforts. Magnesium biglysinate (pure-no oxide) daily has been proven to reduce anxiety after regularly taken for at least six weeks. Have you had blood work done to check your b12, ferritin and vitamin D. Also 95% of serotonin is made in the gut...are you taking probiotics? Omega 3 fish oil is good too. Definitely this too will pass. 

[tollah]

So it has been a while. March 24th I started my first 9mg dose of paxil (10 per cent of my last dose) after holding at 10mg (which was a reinstatement back from 5mg).

All in all not too bad. I am now 17 days in. Day 11 was the worst: I had a huge episode of anger (after ruining dinner) which was completely out of character for me. I actually ended up pounding my fist and slamming cupboard doors. That anger quickly turned to overwhelming distress, crying (more like wailing, I was worried our neighbours would hear!!) and almost hyperventilating. It took a bit of time for me to realize I was having some neuroemotions and this was all WD related. Thank goodness my wife made it home shortly thereafter and we were able to talk and calm myself down. I was definitely shaken for a bit but the next day was like nothing happened. Up until this episode I (possibly foolishly) thought I might make it unscathed.... I am now disabused of that idea but continue to be optimistic that even this was less intense/long etc, than it could have been not following the 10 percent method. Since then I have had some pretty uncomfortable feelings in my body relating to real life anxieties, not really a wave, or if they are they are done pretty quickly. 

Trying to stay positive. I just wish there was a way to avoid stress (I've got some real big things going on which can't be avoided, as is life).

Thanks again to everyone on this site. Even if I am not posting I usually take a look each day just to remind myself that I am not alone and that success is possible.

[Onmyway]

Hi @tollah, 

glad that you are doing relatively ok and good luck dealing with big life issues. Unfortunately, life does not stop while we are tapering. 

 

Would you consider the Brass Monkey's slide method - it is a bit more gentle than the 10% every 4 weeks. Given that life is difficult, this may help make the ride slightly smoother. Have a look
 

OMW

[Zaneta]

Hey... I read your story 🙂 I am sorry you are suffering.... Very, I have similar symptoms, mainly memory problems.... I think that's the worst for me and it screws up my anxiety, ocd, I take prozac 6msc and it's a bit heartbreaking that you're taking so long to recover, after taking medication for such a short time.... Do you think all ssri drugs do that to memory? This is scary. I previously took fluanxol ( a neuroleptic) and didn't have as much memory problems as I did after ssri.... Take care 💚

 

[tollah]

Thought I would just post an update on my journey. I have been tapering at 10% per month since March. Typically it is a similar pattern each month: I will be more prone to anxiety, usually spurred on by an uncomfortable event which results in neuroemotions. I have gotten much better at realizing I am feeling so intensely due to the neuroemotion, however it doesn't always make it easier to deal with. Lots of tension in my body usually. 

On the bright side this usually lasts for a few days, a few times each month. There are other times where I don't even think about the fact that I am tapering and have no symptoms. I do seem to have headaches all the time, especially upon waking up in the morning.

I'd be lying if said I wasn't tired and frustrated with this whole process. It is exhausting knowing that every month I will have to yet again push through withdrawal, and do this for about another 2.5 years. I stand firm though. My wife is an amazing support and helps buoy me up any time I'm having problems. I'm sure like many of you here, there are times I wish there was an easier, faster way. Resilience is what I have. I am determined to be drug free.

I come to the site less frequently these days but always return when I need a reminder that I am not the only one out there. Things certainly seem surreal sometimes. I'd like to thank everyone on this site again for all the information, without which I wouldn't be able to understand and recognize the patterns of SSRI withdrawal and have been able to start on and stay on this road to eventual freedom.

I wish all of you more windows than waves and the ability to keep looking forward!

[LostInCanada]

Thanks for the update. You are doing great. It may get tougher as you get into the lower ranges. Keep listening to your body and adjust if needed. Brassmonkey slide might be helpful in the future or just reducing the percentage. Way to go. 👍

[Onmyway]

@tollah

This is good news.  I'm seeing your resilience and attitude to just get through it which is always helpful. How lovely that you have support in your partner!

 

Take breaks holding for longer if symptoms get difficult.  This is like jenga, constantly trying to balance changes. 

 

Omw

[tollah]

Most recent decrease was 8 days ago to 3.48mg. I have been steadily decreasing 10 percent every 35 days. This seems to have been the most difficult drop. Crying, anxiety, upset stomach...it doesn't sound like much as I write this but it is taking it out of me to the point where I worry about being able to continue. I have an appointment with my doctor to get a 2 or 3 months repeat at this dose. In the next 4 to 6 weeks my wife and I are expecting our first child and I will need to hold. I probably could have held from the last dose but things were going well. The decreases are very patterned - one week with some hard ups and downs the second a bit better then the remaining 3 weeks are mostly stable. This time I feel shook up though, and it didn't help that it happened on Christmas break, or maybe it is better than being at work like this. I have also noticed that i am getting mini brain zaps. I used to get them like clockwork if i missed a full dose, but it is only recently i have started getting them when i decrease dosages. I keep thinking about how when the dose gets smaller the symptoms can become more pronounced and don't know who anyone does it. Same with life stressors, I'm in my late 40s about to have a baby....there won't ever be a time without external stressors. 

I wish everyone here strength and courage for the new year. It is always so helpful knowing there are others who are in the same battle.

 

 

 

 

[LostInCanada]

@tollah what was your dose before this recent drop? I would suggest an updose to maybe half way between the two or even back to the dose 8 days ago. And then do a good long hold for a few months till those brain zaps stop. 10% is just a maximum suggestion. Listening to your body is more reliable. As you get to these low doses, paxil starts self metabolizing making your body think you are tapering faster than you are. Maybe a 5% reduction would be better moving on and using the brass monkey slide?

A baby is definitely a joy but definitely an added stressor. Time to enjoy and definitely hold like you mentioned. 

You have done amazing...so happy for you. Congratulations as well. 👣

[tollah]

 So I have been on 3.48 MG for 4 months now. My wife and I welcomed our baby girl mid February. So glad I held my dose...it has been so difficult. So often now I feel anxious to the point of distraction as soon as I wake up. I know most of it is caused by stressors in my life (sleep deprivation, working full time, wife's medical issues, adapting to life with a 2.5 month old, trying to give the dogs the attention they need, the list goes on!) But more and more I am thinking that may not be the case, that really, at the core I have an anxiety disorder and was not as far along in recovery as I once thought. 2 years ago it seemed like anxiety was a thing of the past, now it is my constant companion. I am beginning to regret my decision to try to stop meds. This morning I've even been thinking about increasing back up to 5mg. At the very least I question if I am strong enough, or well enough, to continue a taper. I feel like all the struggles every month have only made my life worse in the end. Sorry for the rant but that is where I am

[LostInCanada]

@tollah you have been on paxil a long time. Our bodies eventually get tired of compensating for them and they start rejecting them. It's called poop out. Sometimes too they just start causing the issues they claim treat. 

It sounds like you are experiencing a morning cortisol rush. Your body is making adjustments. Waves and windows are normal. They mean your body is trying to heal and find homeostasis.

Please read Claire Weekes book Hope and Help for Your Nerves. It really puts anxiety in perspective. The paxil isn't dulling your emotions and you are learning how to fully feel again. It is a scary process but well worth it. 

I do not believe in anxiety disorders. I hate all the labels from psychiatry... They want to label everything because it means money for them. 

It is Normal to feel anxiety. Look at all you are dealing with at the moment. Congratulations on the new little one... ❤️🎉

Can you simplify life to lessen the stressors? Can you take paternity leave? Do your wife's health issues allow for care in the home? Can a neighbourhood kid walk the dogs? 

There is no race to the taper...I suggest you continue to hold and maybe do an online CBT course or engage in something enjoyable that relaxes you -even if it's a hot Epsom salt bath. 

Just breathe. You have come so far and have done amazing.

[LostInCanada]

1 hour ago, tollah said:

This morning I've even been thinking about increasing back up to 5mg.

I just wanted to mention kindling can occur when going up in dose. I reread your thread and your CNS seems very sensitive to stress as well. 

Have you had recent blood work done checking your vitamin B, ferritin, vit D and magnesium? 

Are you avoiding caffeine (green tea, coffee, black tea, chocolate, decaf coffee)? No alcohol? No nicotine? No MSG? No sodium nitrates? Avoiding too much refined sugar? 

Lessening any stimulants help the CNS heal.

[tollah]

@LostInCanadathanks so much for your reply, it means so much to be heard.

I already took 5 weeks parental leave, the most I could afford. Walking the dogs, although tiring, is a big grounding routine for me, and them, as they have been especially needy since the disruption to their routine with having a baby in the house. 

My wife told me yesterday not to be afraid to tell her I need some down time...I find it hard to do, as I put myself at the end of the list after everything else (work, wife, baby, dogs, chores). She is trying to find me a new therapist who may have some background with withdrawal. 

My caffeine intake has been greatly reduced for I while one coffe in the morning and just recently I started having one after work. I have had one beer in 6 months. Not sure about the other things you listed. 

I will certainly check.out the book.

Thank you for your presence here on the forums you are doing a lot of good.

[LostInCanada]

3 hours ago, tollah said:

My caffeine intake has been greatly reduced for I while one coffe in the morning and just recently I started having one after work. I have had one beer

You might want to eliminate the one after work. It could be affecting the increase in adrenaline. I know some on here still have their morning coffee. If your anxiety is up on a certain day you might want to forego it.

Found this quote about what stimulants are in coffee other than Caffeine:

Theanine and to lesser amounts theobromine (the same psychoactive that's in chocolate) and theophylline. Theobromine and theophylline both are methylated xanthines and are structurally very similar to caffeine (methyl groups are just positioned differently), sharing the same mild stimulating effect.Apr 25, 2015

 

It is why some even react to decaf coffee.

 

3 hours ago, tollah said:

wife told me yesterday not to be afraid to tell her I need some down time...I find it hard to do, as I put myself at the end of the list after everything else (work, wife, baby, dogs, chores

A member on here gave a great analogy about this a couple days ago. In an emergency on a plane, you have to put the oxygen mask on yourself before you can help others. You are in a better place to help them if you are doing well. This isn't selfish, it is beneficial for everyone. 

 

You sound in a better place. You are doing amazing. Try to shut off the outside world as much as possible and just love that sweet little baby and your wife. (dogs too )