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MarliesDutch Dutchie tapering Paroxetine (/Paxil) 14yrs

MarliesDutch

By MarliesDutch
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MarliesDutch

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46 minutes ago, Go2zero said:

It is your choice of course. But we have seen a lot members here doing the same and making things much worse. You are adding a drug that is most probably even more difficult to stop. 


What would be your advice right now? 
Stop with the benzo’s right know? CT? Back to oxa 4x day and taper? Taper lora after 3 days 2x day? 

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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Sebas
Sebas

@Shep read my mind. GP's and most psych dont know JS about withdrawal. They only see meds as a (short term) solution. You think visiting your psych is helpful but when given wrong advice you better ca

LotusRising
LotusRising

@MarliesDutch   It sounds like what you need the most is to stabilize from your last reduction.    I would caution against adding lorazepam into the mix. I was taking it sporadical

Sebas
Sebas

Hi Marlies,   "After an okay week, now suffering from withdrawl with massive anxiety, depair, insomnia, total loss of apetite, tembling legs, muscle tension. Taking about 4x10mg Seresta

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2 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:


What would be your advice right now? 
Stop with the benzo’s right know? CT? Back to oxa 4x day and taper? Taper lora after 3 days 2x day? 

 

Back to oxa is definitely a no-go. Then you are really messing up your system with al these changes. What would happen if you took lora only once a day or twice @half current dose. Then you would be tapering it down slowly and in the meantime monitoring effects.

 

Future paxil strategy would be to taper from 2.5 to 2.4 and take all the time you need for stabilsation. Small steps, no hurry, no timeframe. Natural supplements like magnesium and fish oil to soothe the taper side effects. If these mg quantities can't be made by compounding pharmacy then you could make your own liquid using water. You dissolve 2.5 mg in 5 ml and withdraw 0.2 ml. More info available on site. 0.1 mg equals 4% whereas your last taper was 12% (+ 1×missed-a-dose + 1×not helpful dose recovery).

Bye Sebas

  • 45 years old male
  • job in spatial planning
  • into sports, animals and nature
  • Started using 20 mg Paroxetine (Paxil) in 2004 for stressrelated anxiety/depression
  • Attempted several times to stop, starting a few years after 2004
  • Found out in 2015 about paxil withdrawal symptoms and the 5-10% taper guideline
  • Started using liquid paxil in 2015/2016
  • 2018 --> 11.2 mg of paxil
  • 2019-2023 developed severe food- and other sensitivities (anti imflammatory, anti oxidant, food colourings, oils, herbs, chemicals etc.)
  • 12/2023 Poop-out/tolerance, introducing brassmonkey slide method 0.1mg/week
  • 26/1/2024 10 mg (journey halfway).
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Go2zero Contributor

Go2zero

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3 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

2,5mg and still 48% blocked receptors…!  
Is that the same as saying that the drug still works for almost 50%?
…. Still just halfway….

To be honest not halfway... You were taking 10mg as I understand (72 blockage). 2,5mg gives 48% blockage...

 

These drugs are so powerful! And give the parabolic blockage graph, I hope you understand why one has to be so extremely careful when tapering the lower dosages.

 

Edited by Go2zero

1993    Anafranil (Clomipramine) for a few months. Later in 1993 Paxil for a few months 1993- 2006      No medication

2006   Effexor, Cymbalta, some Benzo’s. All for short periods. Later in 2006 Lexapro (escitalopram) 10 mg and shortly after Wellbutrin XR 150mg, against side effects Lexapro 

Since 2006 until end of 2015: Several times on and off Lexapro and Wellbutrin and several slight dosage changes. Mostly taken dosages: 5mg Lexapro and 150mg Wellbutrin

2016  Dosage change Lexapro from 5mg to 2,5 mg. Wellbutrin stayed om 150mg

November 2016 – April 2017 Down from 2,5mg to 0,6mg Lexapro (in steps) without much problems. Wellbutrin down from 150mg to 66mg. Also without much problems.

April 2017 – March 2019       Lexapro 0,6 mg        April 2017 - August 2018       Wellbutrin in small steps down from 66mg in to 37,5 mg . Quite heavy WD after each step.

March 2019 – May 2019 Lexapro down from 0,6 to 0,3mg then Prozac to 0,6 mg switch because severe discontinuation effects (may also have been from Wellbutrin..)    

Wellbutrin down from 37,5mg to 35,3mg 

October 2019        Seroquel 12,5 mg for 4 weeks because of extreme sleeping problems, then weaning off in 2 weeks       Prozac up dosage to 1,2 mg

March 2020     Wellbutrin in 2 steps down from 35,3mg to 33,3mg   Extreme withdrawal effects during 8 months. Stopped tapering Wellbutrin  until total off Prozac. 

February 2020 – November 2020   Prozac down in steps from 1,2mg to 0,57mg. 

Jan 2021 :  Prozac down to:  0,55> 0,53>0,51mg,   Feb 0,47mg ,  Mar 0,42mg,   Apr 0,37, longer hold because of WD symptoms July 0,36 and hold again, Sept 19 0,35, Sept 26 0,34mg, Oct 3 0,33mg  Long hold of 172 days until March 2022

January 20, 2022:  Wellbutrin from 33,3 to 32,3mg

March 22, 2022 Prozac down from 0,33mg to: 0,30mg, Apr 0,29, May 0,28, 0,27, June 0,26, 0,25, July 0,24, 0,23, 0,22, 0,21, Aug 0,20, 0,19 Sep 0,18, Oct 0,17. 0,16, 0,15, Nov 0,14  Jan 2023 0,13, 0,12, 0,11  Feb 0,10, 0,09 Mar 0,08 ,  June 0,07 , July 0,06,  0,05, Aug 0,04, 0,03, Sept 0,026, 0,024 Nov 0,022, 0,019, 0,016, 0,013 Dec 0,012, 0,011, 0,010, 0,009   Jan 2024 0,008, 0,007,  0,006,  0,005, 0,004, 0,003, 0,002, 0,001, Feb  0,0007.  0,0005,   0,0003, 0,0001,  

Feb 23, 2024:  0,00000

Wellbutrin resume tapering: Apr 2024 31,6mg, 30,8, 30

  

Supplements: Fish Oil (3000mg), Magnesium 100 mg, 2 drops of Lavender Oil, only when feeling extreme anxiety. 50mg of L-Theanine only when severe discontinuation effects caused by Wellbutrin

 

Please note this is NOT a medical advice. Discuss all your medical issues with a doctor who understands psychical drugs and really knows how to withdraw from them. I wish that you will find one.

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Go2zero

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4 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

What would be your advice right now? 
Stop with the benzo’s right know? CT? Back to oxa 4x day and taper? Taper lora after 3 days 2x day? 

As I understand you started ox around March 24. Normally you should be on the safe side to quit now. Not 100% sure though. Most people can stop benzo's CT when not taken longer than 3-4 weeks.

 

I am going to be honest with you when I say that you have been playing quite a lot with the dosing of oxazepam. This may have messed up your CNS also, but I guess it may stabilise relatively soon since you took it only for 3 weeks.

 

Lorazepam which is a much meaner benzo than oxazepam was only taken for a couple of days.

 

If I were you, I would stop all benzo's immediately. This may cause a temporarily increase in symptoms. But continuation of benzo use will create much bigger problems most probably. I have seen only big problems from people who want to get away from lorazepam. Believe me, you do not want to be there!

 

For what your current WD problems concerned; I see that you tapered paroxetine from 3 to 2,2mg in 6 weeks. That is 27% down in 6 weeks. We advise maximum 10% per month. For some people this is even too fast. I guess that your current WD symptoms have to do with a too fast taper. OK, you went up to 2,5mg again. I think that was a good decision. But your CNS has been sensitised by this (and the benzo use).

 

So in my opinion there is only 1 thing you can do. Which is stabilising en riding this out. It is not comfortable to say at least. Lots of the members here experience this (now and then).  There is not much you can do more than accept this. And know it will stabilise. And know that you will heal if you give it time.

 

These links will give more info that may help:

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/82-the-windows-and-waves-pattern-of-stabilization/

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1112-non-drug-techniques-to-cope-with-emotional-symptoms/

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/14397-neuro-emotions/

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/6632-the-rule-of-3kis-keep-it-simple-keep-it-slow-keep-it-stable/?tab=comments#comment-525233

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Go2zero
1

1993    Anafranil (Clomipramine) for a few months. Later in 1993 Paxil for a few months 1993- 2006      No medication

2006   Effexor, Cymbalta, some Benzo’s. All for short periods. Later in 2006 Lexapro (escitalopram) 10 mg and shortly after Wellbutrin XR 150mg, against side effects Lexapro 

Since 2006 until end of 2015: Several times on and off Lexapro and Wellbutrin and several slight dosage changes. Mostly taken dosages: 5mg Lexapro and 150mg Wellbutrin

2016  Dosage change Lexapro from 5mg to 2,5 mg. Wellbutrin stayed om 150mg

November 2016 – April 2017 Down from 2,5mg to 0,6mg Lexapro (in steps) without much problems. Wellbutrin down from 150mg to 66mg. Also without much problems.

April 2017 – March 2019       Lexapro 0,6 mg        April 2017 - August 2018       Wellbutrin in small steps down from 66mg in to 37,5 mg . Quite heavy WD after each step.

March 2019 – May 2019 Lexapro down from 0,6 to 0,3mg then Prozac to 0,6 mg switch because severe discontinuation effects (may also have been from Wellbutrin..)    

Wellbutrin down from 37,5mg to 35,3mg 

October 2019        Seroquel 12,5 mg for 4 weeks because of extreme sleeping problems, then weaning off in 2 weeks       Prozac up dosage to 1,2 mg

March 2020     Wellbutrin in 2 steps down from 35,3mg to 33,3mg   Extreme withdrawal effects during 8 months. Stopped tapering Wellbutrin  until total off Prozac. 

February 2020 – November 2020   Prozac down in steps from 1,2mg to 0,57mg. 

Jan 2021 :  Prozac down to:  0,55> 0,53>0,51mg,   Feb 0,47mg ,  Mar 0,42mg,   Apr 0,37, longer hold because of WD symptoms July 0,36 and hold again, Sept 19 0,35, Sept 26 0,34mg, Oct 3 0,33mg  Long hold of 172 days until March 2022

January 20, 2022:  Wellbutrin from 33,3 to 32,3mg

March 22, 2022 Prozac down from 0,33mg to: 0,30mg, Apr 0,29, May 0,28, 0,27, June 0,26, 0,25, July 0,24, 0,23, 0,22, 0,21, Aug 0,20, 0,19 Sep 0,18, Oct 0,17. 0,16, 0,15, Nov 0,14  Jan 2023 0,13, 0,12, 0,11  Feb 0,10, 0,09 Mar 0,08 ,  June 0,07 , July 0,06,  0,05, Aug 0,04, 0,03, Sept 0,026, 0,024 Nov 0,022, 0,019, 0,016, 0,013 Dec 0,012, 0,011, 0,010, 0,009   Jan 2024 0,008, 0,007,  0,006,  0,005, 0,004, 0,003, 0,002, 0,001, Feb  0,0007.  0,0005,   0,0003, 0,0001,  

Feb 23, 2024:  0,00000

Wellbutrin resume tapering: Apr 2024 31,6mg, 30,8, 30

  

Supplements: Fish Oil (3000mg), Magnesium 100 mg, 2 drops of Lavender Oil, only when feeling extreme anxiety. 50mg of L-Theanine only when severe discontinuation effects caused by Wellbutrin

 

Please note this is NOT a medical advice. Discuss all your medical issues with a doctor who understands psychical drugs and really knows how to withdraw from them. I wish that you will find one.

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Go2zero

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From my own experience:

 

I found that essential Lavender oil helps me a lot against anxiety (caused by WD). The oil also helps sometimes when I have other heavy WD symptoms (sleeping problems for example). It is not a miracle cure, but it may help to lower the heavier WD symptoms. For me this helps perfectly.

 

If you want to try, only buy 100% organic essential lavender oil. Without additives. Put 2-3 drops in a glass of water and drink it. Result may be felt after 15 - 60 minutes with no side effects. Just use when needed. If no result after 1 hour you could take 1-2 drops extra.

 

It is not addictive, but you should not get used to using it. Best is to take as little as possible supplements or meds when healing from WD. Your body and mind need to find their homeostasis. 

1993    Anafranil (Clomipramine) for a few months. Later in 1993 Paxil for a few months 1993- 2006      No medication

2006   Effexor, Cymbalta, some Benzo’s. All for short periods. Later in 2006 Lexapro (escitalopram) 10 mg and shortly after Wellbutrin XR 150mg, against side effects Lexapro 

Since 2006 until end of 2015: Several times on and off Lexapro and Wellbutrin and several slight dosage changes. Mostly taken dosages: 5mg Lexapro and 150mg Wellbutrin

2016  Dosage change Lexapro from 5mg to 2,5 mg. Wellbutrin stayed om 150mg

November 2016 – April 2017 Down from 2,5mg to 0,6mg Lexapro (in steps) without much problems. Wellbutrin down from 150mg to 66mg. Also without much problems.

April 2017 – March 2019       Lexapro 0,6 mg        April 2017 - August 2018       Wellbutrin in small steps down from 66mg in to 37,5 mg . Quite heavy WD after each step.

March 2019 – May 2019 Lexapro down from 0,6 to 0,3mg then Prozac to 0,6 mg switch because severe discontinuation effects (may also have been from Wellbutrin..)    

Wellbutrin down from 37,5mg to 35,3mg 

October 2019        Seroquel 12,5 mg for 4 weeks because of extreme sleeping problems, then weaning off in 2 weeks       Prozac up dosage to 1,2 mg

March 2020     Wellbutrin in 2 steps down from 35,3mg to 33,3mg   Extreme withdrawal effects during 8 months. Stopped tapering Wellbutrin  until total off Prozac. 

February 2020 – November 2020   Prozac down in steps from 1,2mg to 0,57mg. 

Jan 2021 :  Prozac down to:  0,55> 0,53>0,51mg,   Feb 0,47mg ,  Mar 0,42mg,   Apr 0,37, longer hold because of WD symptoms July 0,36 and hold again, Sept 19 0,35, Sept 26 0,34mg, Oct 3 0,33mg  Long hold of 172 days until March 2022

January 20, 2022:  Wellbutrin from 33,3 to 32,3mg

March 22, 2022 Prozac down from 0,33mg to: 0,30mg, Apr 0,29, May 0,28, 0,27, June 0,26, 0,25, July 0,24, 0,23, 0,22, 0,21, Aug 0,20, 0,19 Sep 0,18, Oct 0,17. 0,16, 0,15, Nov 0,14  Jan 2023 0,13, 0,12, 0,11  Feb 0,10, 0,09 Mar 0,08 ,  June 0,07 , July 0,06,  0,05, Aug 0,04, 0,03, Sept 0,026, 0,024 Nov 0,022, 0,019, 0,016, 0,013 Dec 0,012, 0,011, 0,010, 0,009   Jan 2024 0,008, 0,007,  0,006,  0,005, 0,004, 0,003, 0,002, 0,001, Feb  0,0007.  0,0005,   0,0003, 0,0001,  

Feb 23, 2024:  0,00000

Wellbutrin resume tapering: Apr 2024 31,6mg, 30,8, 30

  

Supplements: Fish Oil (3000mg), Magnesium 100 mg, 2 drops of Lavender Oil, only when feeling extreme anxiety. 50mg of L-Theanine only when severe discontinuation effects caused by Wellbutrin

 

Please note this is NOT a medical advice. Discuss all your medical issues with a doctor who understands psychical drugs and really knows how to withdraw from them. I wish that you will find one.

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MarliesDutch

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Thanks for being so helpfull all!

 

Since yesterday bit more physical withdrawl symptoms in the morning and early afternoon. Chest pressure, pressure head, cortisol and nausea when waking up, trembling. 
 

Currently 2,5mg Paroxetine; not tapering any further in the next six months. 

 

@Go2zero @Sebas

- 01-24 march: took around 60mg oxa in total 

- 25 march - april 11: took 05-30mg daily if needed, no scheduled times (didn’t know stability in dosage would be so important)

- april 12 to now: 0,5mg lora daily at 15.00 and 23.00

 

So for now start tapering the lora?

Together with more increasing symptoms in the morning (guess a wave coming on?)? 


Or could the increase in symptoms in the morning come from not taking any benzo’s in the morning?

 


And: seeing my current symptoms (somethings get better, currently mornings a little tougher) would I be looking at more stability in 6 weeks total or more like 3 months total? 

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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MarliesDutch

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@Go2zero

what makes Lora such a mean benzo?

Short half-life?

 

And what’s your opinion of diazepam as a substitute for lorazepam tapering. Not for myself, but my uncle is taking lorazepam for 6-8 weeks now together with starting fluoxetine 40mg. And his psych wants him to taper down lora…

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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Shep

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1 hour ago, MarliesDutch said:

And what’s your opinion of diazepam as a substitute for lorazepam tapering. Not for myself, but my uncle is taking lorazepam for 6-8 weeks now together with starting fluoxetine 40mg. And his psych wants him to taper down lora…

 

If the reason for the benzo crossover is to get him off benzos while still on fluoxetine (Prozac), I would show your uncle this:

 

The Guardian - They Said It Was Safe - Prozac trials and akathisia, an article from 1999

 

Removing a benzo while taking an SSRI is not recommended - the Prozac drug trials showed that tranquilizers were needed in order to get the participants through the drug trials because of the side effects of Prozac. 

 

Also see:

 

Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?

 

The order of tapering is very important - taper stimulating drugs like SSRI's first and then taper the sedating drug last. This helps preserve sleep. 

 

And this:

 

Again, chemical imbalance is a myth. Stop the lies, please.

 

At best, antidepressants are placebos. They do not treat any underlying medical condition. "Depression" can be fatigue caused by poor nutrition, having a difficult and / or underpaid job, lack of friends and community, lack of exercise, etc. But it's not from a lack of serotonin. 

 

You and your uncle may also want to get a copy of Robert Whitaker's Anatomy of an Epidemic. You can also find a number of talks by Whitaker on YouTube. And his website Mad in America comes highly recommended. 

 

Let's not get off track in this thread for your uncle. He's setting up a new drug cocktail, which again, we aren't able to help with here. As you go through your own taper and recovery, the education you'll gain will help you help the people in your life. Many of us find that we're not able to appear as credible witnesses of this until we've healed because many of us find that we're sicker due to the taper and withdrawal than when we were on these drugs. So it's important to get to the space of healing before we're able to do much in the way of educating others. That's not always the case, but it's hard to convince other people around us that the drugs are bad if we're sicker than ever while coming off of them. 

 

On 4/11/2023 at 2:01 AM, MarliesDutch said:

And: there might be an autistic component present, but not sure. Testing will take place in maybe 4-5 months. If that’s the case, some ‘pieces fit the puzzle’ I guess.

 

I would be very careful continuing on with psychiatric labels while you're tapering and going through withdrawal. Some of what may be picked up in these tests may be the side effects / withdrawal effects of psychiatric drugs. Please see:

 

“Pseudo-Autism” as a result of psych drug injury (another consideration in protracted withdrawal syndrome from psych meds)

 

My own experience was this was shared here in that thread. 

 

If you feel it would be beneficial to go through testing for autism, I would wait until you're off these drugs and fully healed. This is true not only because of the effects of the drugs but because it's important to go through the un-patienting process in order to not only get off the drugs, but to stay off them. It may be hard to parse through what is inherently you and what is caused by the drugs until you've healed. 

 

Also, going through these kinds of tests may bring you further into a system that pathologizes all aspects of what it means to be human. That may be very stressful to have to deal with during withdrawal. Be careful while you're in a vulnerable state due to withdrawal. 

 

 

2 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

Or could the increase in symptoms in the morning come from not taking any benzo’s in the morning?

 

It could be interdose withdrawal from the benzos or it could be early morning cortisol, which is quite common during withdrawal. This thread explains:

 

Early-morning waking - managing the morning cortisol spike

 

Did you have these symptoms in the mornings before you went on oxazepam? Did you have these symptoms before you added in lorazepam? 

 

Also, how has your sleep changed since you went on oxazepam? Since you went on lorazepam? 

 

Please update your signature to include your full history, which goes back to 2007, as you noted in your opening post. This post shows what we need and provides an example:

 

How to Summarize Your Drug History in Your Signature

 

 

 

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MarliesDutch Contributor

MarliesDutch

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Hi @Shep!

Will pass the info to my uncle, thanks!

Very helpfull!

 

Yeah, I know the serotonine myth. One of the reasons I wanted to taper. Saw a video from Mark Horowitz ‘myth of low serotonin and antidepressants’. Just hit the spot.

 

 

About the autisme: very helpfull perspective, thank you! Hadn’t thought about this before. For me it was not just to ‘label’ (unfortunately sometimes you need a label to get proper help, paid for by health insurance…). But for me it was just to investigate if my brain just functions different. Underwent soooo many therapy where they always said: “your have to go through the fear”. But still, 30 years later still having anxiety etc.

So maybe autism-spectrum would be a step to accepting myself that my brain works differently. 


But as you say: my brain is chemically changing last few years. And: maybe it’s time to come to peace with the fact that I’m just who I am. More sensitive, insecure, introvert etc, without those things being a bad thing. Just society and environment asked to much of me. Lost myself along the way. Acceptance, compassion, being gentle. Makes me cry writing this. 

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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MarliesDutch

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2 hours ago, Shep said:
Did you have these symptoms in the mornings before you went on oxazepam? Did you have these symptoms before you added in lorazepam? 

 

Also, how has your sleep changed since you went on oxazepam? Since you went on lorazepam? 

 

Cortisolrush

Cortisolrush incl nausea or diarrhea started april 8: 2 days after things took a turn for the worse after forgetting a dose april 3/4.

That was two weeks into using oxa different dosages each day.

I have had cortisolrushes before, f.e.  last year in very stressful period. But current version is more intens, incl the nausea. 
 

Sleep

- 24 march - 5 april: some nights without any oxa and pretty good sleep, some night with 10 oxa en pretty good sleep, some nights with oxa and bad sleep. So no real pattern.

- since april 6: same as above but little different timetable: would fall asleep on couch at 22.00PM, went to bed later and would wake up around 06.00 AM.

- since april 12: good sleep on Lora 0,5mg

 

Morning symptoms (other than cortisol)

Think since april 9, noticing the mornings being the crappy part of the day. In the beginning more weak leggs, trembling hands, shakey leggs, depression, wobbly head, pressure on head. Bit on and off.

Since yesterday changed a bit to crying, trembling hands, anxiety-kind-of-pressure in chest, again more pressure on head (introduced Lora on april 12). The flu-like warmth and flushes are mostly gone.

 

So, can’t really say the benzo’s are the reason for symptoms to occur or change. I think? Maybe I’m still in the ‘safe zone’? 
Next tuesday another appointment with the psychiatrist from the crisisteam. Want to propose a taper from lora to get rid of those (hestitant about quiting CT right now). Then would be benzo free again.

 

Last days it becomes a bit more manageable (not saying it out load, maybe a ‘wave’ is listening in 😉). And seeing that the benzo’s last week helped me not to panic as much (cause dear god...), sometimes got me to sleep or prevent stupid (su*cidal) things, but aren’t really helping with the physical symptoms of withdrawl.

 

 

And really sad about the fact that I lost all the kg’s I gained back on the last 6-7 months, in just 1 month of withdrawl…

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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Go2zero

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5 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

Since yesterday bit more physical withdrawl symptoms in the morning and early afternoon. Chest pressure, pressure head, cortisol and nausea when waking up, trembling. 

 

This, and what you say in later posts are typical WD symptoms. Can be caused by paroxetine tapering (what I think) or also benzo interdose WD (maybe, but probably not the main cause imo).

 

5 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

So for now start tapering the lora?

Together with more increasing symptoms in the morning (guess a wave coming on?)? 


Or could the increase in symptoms in the morning come from not taking any benzo’s in the morning?

 

Increase of symptoms in the morning is very common when in WD. Lots of members experience this. I have it nearly every morning and later in the day symptoms often get less or even disappear until next morning.

 

Given the short period you are on the benzo's I would stop asap. Tapering the lorazepam is not really necessary in my opinion. You took it very shortly. The sooner you go away from the benzo's the better. Hopefully you are  still in time. The longer you stay on them the higher the risks for addiction.  

 

Only if you really want to taper (I would not) , do it as fast as you can to prevent addiction.  As said, tapering is probably not necessary. But if you decide to taper, I would take 2 x 0,25 mg per day (only 2 days and then 2 x 0,125mg (max 2 days) and then stop.  So stop in maximum 4 days.

 

I do understand that the lorazepam feels like a help for now, but it is a very risky one. I wrote about my experience with lavender essential oil. 

 

Here is more info which shows it can give the same positive effects as lorazepam without the dangers. For me it feels partly like taking a benzo, but without the sedative effects. It is calming and it can also help with sleeping. Maybe you could use lavender oil after stopping the lorazepam. As said before, I would use the lavender oil only when needed. For stabilising the paroxetine WD symptoms, you should take a little as possible meds or supplements. Also stay away from alcohol, sugar, coffee.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19962288/

 

https://www.naturalmedicinejournal.com/journal/lavender-oil-anxiety-and-depression-0

 

https://www.chi.nl/biologische-lavendelolie-bulgarije.html

 

 

1993    Anafranil (Clomipramine) for a few months. Later in 1993 Paxil for a few months 1993- 2006      No medication

2006   Effexor, Cymbalta, some Benzo’s. All for short periods. Later in 2006 Lexapro (escitalopram) 10 mg and shortly after Wellbutrin XR 150mg, against side effects Lexapro 

Since 2006 until end of 2015: Several times on and off Lexapro and Wellbutrin and several slight dosage changes. Mostly taken dosages: 5mg Lexapro and 150mg Wellbutrin

2016  Dosage change Lexapro from 5mg to 2,5 mg. Wellbutrin stayed om 150mg

November 2016 – April 2017 Down from 2,5mg to 0,6mg Lexapro (in steps) without much problems. Wellbutrin down from 150mg to 66mg. Also without much problems.

April 2017 – March 2019       Lexapro 0,6 mg        April 2017 - August 2018       Wellbutrin in small steps down from 66mg in to 37,5 mg . Quite heavy WD after each step.

March 2019 – May 2019 Lexapro down from 0,6 to 0,3mg then Prozac to 0,6 mg switch because severe discontinuation effects (may also have been from Wellbutrin..)    

Wellbutrin down from 37,5mg to 35,3mg 

October 2019        Seroquel 12,5 mg for 4 weeks because of extreme sleeping problems, then weaning off in 2 weeks       Prozac up dosage to 1,2 mg

March 2020     Wellbutrin in 2 steps down from 35,3mg to 33,3mg   Extreme withdrawal effects during 8 months. Stopped tapering Wellbutrin  until total off Prozac. 

February 2020 – November 2020   Prozac down in steps from 1,2mg to 0,57mg. 

Jan 2021 :  Prozac down to:  0,55> 0,53>0,51mg,   Feb 0,47mg ,  Mar 0,42mg,   Apr 0,37, longer hold because of WD symptoms July 0,36 and hold again, Sept 19 0,35, Sept 26 0,34mg, Oct 3 0,33mg  Long hold of 172 days until March 2022

January 20, 2022:  Wellbutrin from 33,3 to 32,3mg

March 22, 2022 Prozac down from 0,33mg to: 0,30mg, Apr 0,29, May 0,28, 0,27, June 0,26, 0,25, July 0,24, 0,23, 0,22, 0,21, Aug 0,20, 0,19 Sep 0,18, Oct 0,17. 0,16, 0,15, Nov 0,14  Jan 2023 0,13, 0,12, 0,11  Feb 0,10, 0,09 Mar 0,08 ,  June 0,07 , July 0,06,  0,05, Aug 0,04, 0,03, Sept 0,026, 0,024 Nov 0,022, 0,019, 0,016, 0,013 Dec 0,012, 0,011, 0,010, 0,009   Jan 2024 0,008, 0,007,  0,006,  0,005, 0,004, 0,003, 0,002, 0,001, Feb  0,0007.  0,0005,   0,0003, 0,0001,  

Feb 23, 2024:  0,00000

Wellbutrin resume tapering: Apr 2024 31,6mg, 30,8, 30

  

Supplements: Fish Oil (3000mg), Magnesium 100 mg, 2 drops of Lavender Oil, only when feeling extreme anxiety. 50mg of L-Theanine only when severe discontinuation effects caused by Wellbutrin

 

Please note this is NOT a medical advice. Discuss all your medical issues with a doctor who understands psychical drugs and really knows how to withdraw from them. I wish that you will find one.

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Sebas Contributor

Sebas

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58 minutes ago, MarliesDutch said:

Next tuesday another appointment with the psychiatrist from the crisisteam. Want to propose a taper from lora to get rid of those (hestitant about quiting CT right 

 

Big chance the psych, who convinced you to take lora in the 1st place, has another opinion on this. 

 

Take control of the situation yourself (Neem zelf de regie in handen). Don't propose, tell him/her what your strategy will be and what you need him/her to do for you.

1
  • 45 years old male
  • job in spatial planning
  • into sports, animals and nature
  • Started using 20 mg Paroxetine (Paxil) in 2004 for stressrelated anxiety/depression
  • Attempted several times to stop, starting a few years after 2004
  • Found out in 2015 about paxil withdrawal symptoms and the 5-10% taper guideline
  • Started using liquid paxil in 2015/2016
  • 2018 --> 11.2 mg of paxil
  • 2019-2023 developed severe food- and other sensitivities (anti imflammatory, anti oxidant, food colourings, oils, herbs, chemicals etc.)
  • 12/2023 Poop-out/tolerance, introducing brassmonkey slide method 0.1mg/week
  • 26/1/2024 10 mg (journey halfway).
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MarliesDutch Contributor

MarliesDutch

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Hi all!

 

Today, after it was gone for a week, experiencing a very thight knot in the stomach again.

 

Feels a bit like a fist pushing on the stomach, all belly muscles are rockhard, pulling muscles in the side, sometimes tender ribs, can’t actively relax the belly, painfull, super irritating, can’t sit comfortable etc.

 

Anyone tips on how to make this feel a bit better?

I tried the ‘leggs to the wall’ thing. Maybe you have the trick?

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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MarliesDutch

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I think I can say I’ in a wave right now.

Since yesterday symptoms started to return more or less:

 

Yesterday:

- knot in stomach was back

- tension in leggs and chest started to return

- sometimes muscletwitch in leggs 

 

Today:

- today lot’s of tension in chest and upper leggs

- anxiety in my chest, pressure on my chest

- depressive feelings, wanting things to stop

- tension in back of neck and head

Hard to take the hit of a wave, not knowing if it will get worse next days.

 

Yesterday I was shure of going to taper Lorazepam. Today that’s a scary thought if tapering means a worsening of symptoms.

 

Tomorrow appointment with the psych. Last week we talked about the possibility of slightly upping the Paroxetine dose from 2,5mg to 2,6mg (after 3,5 weeks on 2,5mg).

Desperately want things to get a bit better, but what are your thoughts on this? Adding 0,1mg? Russian roulette? Or try it for couple of days? Or chances of kindling?

 

 

 

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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Go2zero Contributor

Go2zero

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30 minutes ago, MarliesDutch said:

Yesterday I was shure of going to taper Lorazepam. Today that’s a scary thought if tapering means a worsening of symptoms.

 

Tomorrow appointment with the psych. Last week we talked about the possibility of slightly upping the Paroxetine dose from 2,5mg to 2,6mg (after 3,5 weeks on 2,5mg).

Desperately want things to get a bit better, but what are your thoughts on this? Adding 0,1mg? Russian roulette? Or try it for couple of days? Or chances of kindling?

 

The thing is that you need to stabilise. This takes time and the only way out is to ride it out. I know how terrible that feels. But it will go away. Symptoms wil come and go and come again. This is normal in WD.

 

Accepting gives more relief than wanting it to go away. The more attention you give to the symptoms, the more you will suffer. I know, it is easily said, but most members experience this. Distract yourself by things you would normally like to do (even if you do not like it now). Meditation, go for a walk, see people who you love and who can take this current  situation of yours serious.

 

The use of benzo's like lorazepam may give a bit relief, but the problems you will have with getting away from the benzo will most probably be worse than what you are experiencing now...

 

I suggested the lavender oil. Going up another 0,1mg of paroxetine is probably not a problem. If it will help is a question no one can answer. I may, it may be not....

 

The problem for most (I also know it) is that when in a wave it may feel that it will never stop and maybe even gets worse. We start doubting about ourselves and make it worse. This is so common when in WD and these are also WD symptoms.

 

Did you read the info in the links I sent you yesterday? That gives a lot of important info that may give more insight in waves, windows, stabilisation and (neuro) emotional symptoms.

 

 

1993    Anafranil (Clomipramine) for a few months. Later in 1993 Paxil for a few months 1993- 2006      No medication

2006   Effexor, Cymbalta, some Benzo’s. All for short periods. Later in 2006 Lexapro (escitalopram) 10 mg and shortly after Wellbutrin XR 150mg, against side effects Lexapro 

Since 2006 until end of 2015: Several times on and off Lexapro and Wellbutrin and several slight dosage changes. Mostly taken dosages: 5mg Lexapro and 150mg Wellbutrin

2016  Dosage change Lexapro from 5mg to 2,5 mg. Wellbutrin stayed om 150mg

November 2016 – April 2017 Down from 2,5mg to 0,6mg Lexapro (in steps) without much problems. Wellbutrin down from 150mg to 66mg. Also without much problems.

April 2017 – March 2019       Lexapro 0,6 mg        April 2017 - August 2018       Wellbutrin in small steps down from 66mg in to 37,5 mg . Quite heavy WD after each step.

March 2019 – May 2019 Lexapro down from 0,6 to 0,3mg then Prozac to 0,6 mg switch because severe discontinuation effects (may also have been from Wellbutrin..)    

Wellbutrin down from 37,5mg to 35,3mg 

October 2019        Seroquel 12,5 mg for 4 weeks because of extreme sleeping problems, then weaning off in 2 weeks       Prozac up dosage to 1,2 mg

March 2020     Wellbutrin in 2 steps down from 35,3mg to 33,3mg   Extreme withdrawal effects during 8 months. Stopped tapering Wellbutrin  until total off Prozac. 

February 2020 – November 2020   Prozac down in steps from 1,2mg to 0,57mg. 

Jan 2021 :  Prozac down to:  0,55> 0,53>0,51mg,   Feb 0,47mg ,  Mar 0,42mg,   Apr 0,37, longer hold because of WD symptoms July 0,36 and hold again, Sept 19 0,35, Sept 26 0,34mg, Oct 3 0,33mg  Long hold of 172 days until March 2022

January 20, 2022:  Wellbutrin from 33,3 to 32,3mg

March 22, 2022 Prozac down from 0,33mg to: 0,30mg, Apr 0,29, May 0,28, 0,27, June 0,26, 0,25, July 0,24, 0,23, 0,22, 0,21, Aug 0,20, 0,19 Sep 0,18, Oct 0,17. 0,16, 0,15, Nov 0,14  Jan 2023 0,13, 0,12, 0,11  Feb 0,10, 0,09 Mar 0,08 ,  June 0,07 , July 0,06,  0,05, Aug 0,04, 0,03, Sept 0,026, 0,024 Nov 0,022, 0,019, 0,016, 0,013 Dec 0,012, 0,011, 0,010, 0,009   Jan 2024 0,008, 0,007,  0,006,  0,005, 0,004, 0,003, 0,002, 0,001, Feb  0,0007.  0,0005,   0,0003, 0,0001,  

Feb 23, 2024:  0,00000

Wellbutrin resume tapering: Apr 2024 31,6mg, 30,8, 30

  

Supplements: Fish Oil (3000mg), Magnesium 100 mg, 2 drops of Lavender Oil, only when feeling extreme anxiety. 50mg of L-Theanine only when severe discontinuation effects caused by Wellbutrin

 

Please note this is NOT a medical advice. Discuss all your medical issues with a doctor who understands psychical drugs and really knows how to withdraw from them. I wish that you will find one.

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MarliesDutch

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Thanks again. I read the info, but sometimes its hard to believe and project the info on myself.


Today is more emotional anyway. It’s my birthday… got many messages and cards, but still feel crap.

I worked so hard to get to the point were I was in life and this situation was so not intended to happen. Didn’t foresee it. Didn’t deserve this.

(yes, being emo today…)

Also those passive suicidal thought today… pfff.

My boyfriend is coming over in an hour, hopely that takes my mind of of things.

 

And: happy to be here online!

Is there a general topic where people post there little successes (so not in a personal topic)? Could use some positive vibes and maybe contribute along the way.

 

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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Go2zero Contributor

Go2zero

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25 minutes ago, MarliesDutch said:

Today is more emotional anyway. It’s my birthday… got many messages and cards, but still feel crap.

I worked so hard to get to the point were I was in life and this situation was so not intended to happen. Didn’t foresee it. Didn’t deserve this.

 

Happy Birthday! 

 

Yes, it frustrating. I can relate. But as John Lennon said: "Life is what is happening while you are busy making other plans". 

Often when we look back it life, we can see that things that looked bad, offered us an opportunity to go in another direction. But as long as we are in the sh*t we cannot see that yet. 

 

I was told these things also in de darkest moment of my life. And I thought it was all crap and bullsh*t, but now I can see the Truth in it.

 

Acceptance, Trust and Time are the best healers in my opinion.

 

33 minutes ago, MarliesDutch said:

Also those passive suicidal thought today… pfff.

I know...., do not believe these thoughts. This is a very mean WD symptom. I also had/have it now and then. It is terrible. Look at it as an observer. See  that it is not you!  Just a voice in you head. Just see it and do not give it further attention.

35 minutes ago, MarliesDutch said:

My boyfriend is coming over in an hour, hopely that takes my mind of of things.

I wish you a joyful day!

 

36 minutes ago, MarliesDutch said:

And: happy to be here online!

Is there a general topic where people post there little successes (so not in a personal topic)? Could use some positive vibes and maybe contribute along the way.

Good to have you here.

 

Here are succes stories to be found:

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/forum/28-success-stories-recovery-from-psychiatric-drug-withdrawal/

 

1993    Anafranil (Clomipramine) for a few months. Later in 1993 Paxil for a few months 1993- 2006      No medication

2006   Effexor, Cymbalta, some Benzo’s. All for short periods. Later in 2006 Lexapro (escitalopram) 10 mg and shortly after Wellbutrin XR 150mg, against side effects Lexapro 

Since 2006 until end of 2015: Several times on and off Lexapro and Wellbutrin and several slight dosage changes. Mostly taken dosages: 5mg Lexapro and 150mg Wellbutrin

2016  Dosage change Lexapro from 5mg to 2,5 mg. Wellbutrin stayed om 150mg

November 2016 – April 2017 Down from 2,5mg to 0,6mg Lexapro (in steps) without much problems. Wellbutrin down from 150mg to 66mg. Also without much problems.

April 2017 – March 2019       Lexapro 0,6 mg        April 2017 - August 2018       Wellbutrin in small steps down from 66mg in to 37,5 mg . Quite heavy WD after each step.

March 2019 – May 2019 Lexapro down from 0,6 to 0,3mg then Prozac to 0,6 mg switch because severe discontinuation effects (may also have been from Wellbutrin..)    

Wellbutrin down from 37,5mg to 35,3mg 

October 2019        Seroquel 12,5 mg for 4 weeks because of extreme sleeping problems, then weaning off in 2 weeks       Prozac up dosage to 1,2 mg

March 2020     Wellbutrin in 2 steps down from 35,3mg to 33,3mg   Extreme withdrawal effects during 8 months. Stopped tapering Wellbutrin  until total off Prozac. 

February 2020 – November 2020   Prozac down in steps from 1,2mg to 0,57mg. 

Jan 2021 :  Prozac down to:  0,55> 0,53>0,51mg,   Feb 0,47mg ,  Mar 0,42mg,   Apr 0,37, longer hold because of WD symptoms July 0,36 and hold again, Sept 19 0,35, Sept 26 0,34mg, Oct 3 0,33mg  Long hold of 172 days until March 2022

January 20, 2022:  Wellbutrin from 33,3 to 32,3mg

March 22, 2022 Prozac down from 0,33mg to: 0,30mg, Apr 0,29, May 0,28, 0,27, June 0,26, 0,25, July 0,24, 0,23, 0,22, 0,21, Aug 0,20, 0,19 Sep 0,18, Oct 0,17. 0,16, 0,15, Nov 0,14  Jan 2023 0,13, 0,12, 0,11  Feb 0,10, 0,09 Mar 0,08 ,  June 0,07 , July 0,06,  0,05, Aug 0,04, 0,03, Sept 0,026, 0,024 Nov 0,022, 0,019, 0,016, 0,013 Dec 0,012, 0,011, 0,010, 0,009   Jan 2024 0,008, 0,007,  0,006,  0,005, 0,004, 0,003, 0,002, 0,001, Feb  0,0007.  0,0005,   0,0003, 0,0001,  

Feb 23, 2024:  0,00000

Wellbutrin resume tapering: Apr 2024 31,6mg, 30,8, 30

  

Supplements: Fish Oil (3000mg), Magnesium 100 mg, 2 drops of Lavender Oil, only when feeling extreme anxiety. 50mg of L-Theanine only when severe discontinuation effects caused by Wellbutrin

 

Please note this is NOT a medical advice. Discuss all your medical issues with a doctor who understands psychical drugs and really knows how to withdraw from them. I wish that you will find one.

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Altostrata Grand Master

Altostrata

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4 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

Yesterday I was shure of going to taper Lorazepam. Today that’s a scary thought if tapering means a worsening of symptoms.

 

Tomorrow appointment with the psych. Last week we talked about the possibility of slightly upping the Paroxetine dose from 2,5mg to 2,6mg (after 3,5 weeks on 2,5mg).

 

Hello, not sure what's going on here. This is a site for minimizing drugs, you're going in the direction of increasing drugs, which is what psychiatrists usually want to do. What symptoms would you be chasing by increasing paroxetine by 0.1mg?

 

You've accepted the lorazepam prescription from the psychiatrist. How long have you been taking it now? What has been the result of the switch to lorazepam? What times o'clock do you currently take your drugs, with their dosages?

1

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Sebas Contributor

Sebas

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Posted
7 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

Also those passive suicidal thought today… pfff.

https://www.ehealthme.com/drug-interaction/paroxetine/lorazepam/

 

While you're mind tells you that lora is helping you get through withdrawal, it may also be working against you..you may be sabotizing your own healing.

 

https://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/ativan-with-paxil-1488-899-1800-1156.html

 

Lorazepam is increasing dopamine and serotonine levels in blood which is interfering with paxil dose stability.

 

 

  • 45 years old male
  • job in spatial planning
  • into sports, animals and nature
  • Started using 20 mg Paroxetine (Paxil) in 2004 for stressrelated anxiety/depression
  • Attempted several times to stop, starting a few years after 2004
  • Found out in 2015 about paxil withdrawal symptoms and the 5-10% taper guideline
  • Started using liquid paxil in 2015/2016
  • 2018 --> 11.2 mg of paxil
  • 2019-2023 developed severe food- and other sensitivities (anti imflammatory, anti oxidant, food colourings, oils, herbs, chemicals etc.)
  • 12/2023 Poop-out/tolerance, introducing brassmonkey slide method 0.1mg/week
  • 26/1/2024 10 mg (journey halfway).
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LotusRising Contributor

LotusRising

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@MarliesDutch

 

It sounds like what you need the most is to stabilize from your last reduction. 

 

I would caution against adding lorazepam into the mix. I was taking it sporadically, and then daily to cover symptoms from an adverse reaction to an antidepressant. I thought, mistakenly, that it would calm my system down, but I became dependent very quickly. I could have avoided a very long and arduous taper from the benzo had I just waited for the withdrawal symptoms to pass from the antidepressant. I would hate to see the same thing happen to you. Please consider that lorazepam can also interfere with healing and cause more confounding symptoms should interdose withdrawal present itself, which can be common with lorazepam.

2

2003-2009 on and off various SSRI's for short periods, Ativan prn

2010-2011 Ativan, up to 1.5mg/day - tapered off without issue

2013-2021 ativan 1-1.5mg 10-12x/month, daily starting Oct 21 to help with buspar WD

2016 - Effexor 75mg, short-term

2021 Mar -Jun Buspar ADR at high dose, tapered 3 months

2021 Aug Wellbutrin 150mg for 5 days (ADR), then MIrtazapine 7.5mg for 7 days (ADR)

Oct 22/21 - Direct switch ativan to clonazepam (don't do this)

Tapered clonaz Oct/21 - Apr/23  - 0mg!

 

Supplements: omega-3, mag-glycinate

 

"Believe that your tragedies, your losses, your sorrows, your hurt, happened for you, not to you. And I bless the thing that broke you down and cracked you open, because the world needs you open" - Rebecca Campbell

 

*** Disclaimer: Please note, my suggestions/comments are based on my own personal experiences. Please consult a knowledgeable practitioner to discuss decisions regarding your medical care *** 

 

                                                             *** Please do not send me PM's ***

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MarliesDutch Contributor

MarliesDutch

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Posted

Hi all,

april 16-17 where difficult due to recurring of some symptoms (tension chest, knot stomach, depressive thought, suicidal ideation).

But when I woke up yesterday (april 18) I felt a lot more clear in my head. Less depressed, more energetic, seeing perspective again and less physical symptoms. For no obvious reason (recovery?). Same for today.

 

Still cortisolrush when I wake up, sometimes flare up of anxiety or pressure on chest/ in stomach (don’t last long). But I seem to have made a step in the right direction (or at least: withdrawl seems less).

So moment to breath… pfew!

 

Still on 0,5mg lora at 15.00 and 23.00 daily. What would be the best way to taper them, without having a big chance of recurring AD-withdrawl or benzo-withdrawl? 
(medication status in signature)

 

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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Go2zero Contributor

Go2zero

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On 4/16/2023 at 4:27 PM, Go2zero said:

Given the short period you are on the benzo's I would stop asap. Tapering the lorazepam is not really necessary in my opinion. You took it very shortly. The sooner you go away from the benzo's the better. Hopefully you are  still in time. The longer you stay on them the higher the risks for addiction.  

 

Only if you really want to taper (I would not) , do it as fast as you can to prevent addiction.  As said, tapering is probably not necessary. But if you decide to taper, I would take 2 x 0,25 mg per day (only 2 days and then 2 x 0,125mg (max 2 days) and then stop.  So stop in maximum 4 days.

 

Great to read that you are feeling better. Be aware that waves may come and go. This a sign of healing and completely normal when in WD.

 

See the quote above how you could stop the lorazepam. The sooner you are away from this benzo the better. If you take it just too long (can be 2 weeks already) you may have to go through a very heavy tapering process. 

1993    Anafranil (Clomipramine) for a few months. Later in 1993 Paxil for a few months 1993- 2006      No medication

2006   Effexor, Cymbalta, some Benzo’s. All for short periods. Later in 2006 Lexapro (escitalopram) 10 mg and shortly after Wellbutrin XR 150mg, against side effects Lexapro 

Since 2006 until end of 2015: Several times on and off Lexapro and Wellbutrin and several slight dosage changes. Mostly taken dosages: 5mg Lexapro and 150mg Wellbutrin

2016  Dosage change Lexapro from 5mg to 2,5 mg. Wellbutrin stayed om 150mg

November 2016 – April 2017 Down from 2,5mg to 0,6mg Lexapro (in steps) without much problems. Wellbutrin down from 150mg to 66mg. Also without much problems.

April 2017 – March 2019       Lexapro 0,6 mg        April 2017 - August 2018       Wellbutrin in small steps down from 66mg in to 37,5 mg . Quite heavy WD after each step.

March 2019 – May 2019 Lexapro down from 0,6 to 0,3mg then Prozac to 0,6 mg switch because severe discontinuation effects (may also have been from Wellbutrin..)    

Wellbutrin down from 37,5mg to 35,3mg 

October 2019        Seroquel 12,5 mg for 4 weeks because of extreme sleeping problems, then weaning off in 2 weeks       Prozac up dosage to 1,2 mg

March 2020     Wellbutrin in 2 steps down from 35,3mg to 33,3mg   Extreme withdrawal effects during 8 months. Stopped tapering Wellbutrin  until total off Prozac. 

February 2020 – November 2020   Prozac down in steps from 1,2mg to 0,57mg. 

Jan 2021 :  Prozac down to:  0,55> 0,53>0,51mg,   Feb 0,47mg ,  Mar 0,42mg,   Apr 0,37, longer hold because of WD symptoms July 0,36 and hold again, Sept 19 0,35, Sept 26 0,34mg, Oct 3 0,33mg  Long hold of 172 days until March 2022

January 20, 2022:  Wellbutrin from 33,3 to 32,3mg

March 22, 2022 Prozac down from 0,33mg to: 0,30mg, Apr 0,29, May 0,28, 0,27, June 0,26, 0,25, July 0,24, 0,23, 0,22, 0,21, Aug 0,20, 0,19 Sep 0,18, Oct 0,17. 0,16, 0,15, Nov 0,14  Jan 2023 0,13, 0,12, 0,11  Feb 0,10, 0,09 Mar 0,08 ,  June 0,07 , July 0,06,  0,05, Aug 0,04, 0,03, Sept 0,026, 0,024 Nov 0,022, 0,019, 0,016, 0,013 Dec 0,012, 0,011, 0,010, 0,009   Jan 2024 0,008, 0,007,  0,006,  0,005, 0,004, 0,003, 0,002, 0,001, Feb  0,0007.  0,0005,   0,0003, 0,0001,  

Feb 23, 2024:  0,00000

Wellbutrin resume tapering: Apr 2024 31,6mg, 30,8, 30

  

Supplements: Fish Oil (3000mg), Magnesium 100 mg, 2 drops of Lavender Oil, only when feeling extreme anxiety. 50mg of L-Theanine only when severe discontinuation effects caused by Wellbutrin

 

Please note this is NOT a medical advice. Discuss all your medical issues with a doctor who understands psychical drugs and really knows how to withdraw from them. I wish that you will find one.

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MarliesDutch Contributor

MarliesDutch

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Posted

Thanks for the reply.

I’m noticing I’m scared of quitting so fast. Hestitant for any rebound of withdrawl from the benzo.

On Lora for 8 days now, but before that I was on oxa for 3 weeks or so.

So that would mean a total of 4-5 weeks, I can’t just quit CT or? 


@Altostrata 

nothing changed in Paroxetine, nothing will for the next few months. First getting stabilized again before tapering any further. So still on 2,5mg since March 25.

 

Day 8 on Lora right know. Two times a day; around 16.00 and around 00.00.

Days have been bit better since.
April 17 was a very bad day again.
But then had 2 good days April 18 and 19. And today very emotional. 

 

 

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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Go2zero Contributor

Go2zero

Posted
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Posted
54 minutes ago, MarliesDutch said:

I’m noticing I’m scared of quitting so fast. Hestitant for any rebound of withdrawl from the benzo.

On Lora for 8 days now, but before that I was on oxa for 3 weeks or so.

So that would mean a total of 4-5 weeks, I can’t just quit CT or? 

 

I do understand you are afraid. But believe me, getting hooked om lorazepam and then trying to get off is something you do not want to go through. In my opinion you are probably still in the area where you can stop. Every day longer on lorazepam may make it more difficult to stop.

 

I will discuss your case with other moderators. If i were you I would go back immediately (today) to 0,5mg only once per day. 

 

In the meanwhile I will discuss your case. I will come back to you then.

 

 

1993    Anafranil (Clomipramine) for a few months. Later in 1993 Paxil for a few months 1993- 2006      No medication

2006   Effexor, Cymbalta, some Benzo’s. All for short periods. Later in 2006 Lexapro (escitalopram) 10 mg and shortly after Wellbutrin XR 150mg, against side effects Lexapro 

Since 2006 until end of 2015: Several times on and off Lexapro and Wellbutrin and several slight dosage changes. Mostly taken dosages: 5mg Lexapro and 150mg Wellbutrin

2016  Dosage change Lexapro from 5mg to 2,5 mg. Wellbutrin stayed om 150mg

November 2016 – April 2017 Down from 2,5mg to 0,6mg Lexapro (in steps) without much problems. Wellbutrin down from 150mg to 66mg. Also without much problems.

April 2017 – March 2019       Lexapro 0,6 mg        April 2017 - August 2018       Wellbutrin in small steps down from 66mg in to 37,5 mg . Quite heavy WD after each step.

March 2019 – May 2019 Lexapro down from 0,6 to 0,3mg then Prozac to 0,6 mg switch because severe discontinuation effects (may also have been from Wellbutrin..)    

Wellbutrin down from 37,5mg to 35,3mg 

October 2019        Seroquel 12,5 mg for 4 weeks because of extreme sleeping problems, then weaning off in 2 weeks       Prozac up dosage to 1,2 mg

March 2020     Wellbutrin in 2 steps down from 35,3mg to 33,3mg   Extreme withdrawal effects during 8 months. Stopped tapering Wellbutrin  until total off Prozac. 

February 2020 – November 2020   Prozac down in steps from 1,2mg to 0,57mg. 

Jan 2021 :  Prozac down to:  0,55> 0,53>0,51mg,   Feb 0,47mg ,  Mar 0,42mg,   Apr 0,37, longer hold because of WD symptoms July 0,36 and hold again, Sept 19 0,35, Sept 26 0,34mg, Oct 3 0,33mg  Long hold of 172 days until March 2022

January 20, 2022:  Wellbutrin from 33,3 to 32,3mg

March 22, 2022 Prozac down from 0,33mg to: 0,30mg, Apr 0,29, May 0,28, 0,27, June 0,26, 0,25, July 0,24, 0,23, 0,22, 0,21, Aug 0,20, 0,19 Sep 0,18, Oct 0,17. 0,16, 0,15, Nov 0,14  Jan 2023 0,13, 0,12, 0,11  Feb 0,10, 0,09 Mar 0,08 ,  June 0,07 , July 0,06,  0,05, Aug 0,04, 0,03, Sept 0,026, 0,024 Nov 0,022, 0,019, 0,016, 0,013 Dec 0,012, 0,011, 0,010, 0,009   Jan 2024 0,008, 0,007,  0,006,  0,005, 0,004, 0,003, 0,002, 0,001, Feb  0,0007.  0,0005,   0,0003, 0,0001,  

Feb 23, 2024:  0,00000

Wellbutrin resume tapering: Apr 2024 31,6mg, 30,8, 30

  

Supplements: Fish Oil (3000mg), Magnesium 100 mg, 2 drops of Lavender Oil, only when feeling extreme anxiety. 50mg of L-Theanine only when severe discontinuation effects caused by Wellbutrin

 

Please note this is NOT a medical advice. Discuss all your medical issues with a doctor who understands psychical drugs and really knows how to withdraw from them. I wish that you will find one.

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Shep Grand Master

Shep

Posted
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Posted
22 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

I’m noticing I’m scared of quitting so fast. Hestitant for any rebound of withdrawl from the benzo.

On Lora for 8 days now, but before that I was on oxa for 3 weeks or so.

 

Please decide if you're going to be able to handle your symptoms without a benzo. If not, than you could stop the lorazepam now and keep taking the oxazepam but on a strict and consistent basis (same dose and time of day). If stopping the lorazepam cold turkey is too frightening, you could reduce by 25% over the next four days until you're completely off. 

 

One way to determine if you'll be able to navigate your antidepressant withdrawal without a benzo is to answer the question: Are you going to be able to sleep without a benzo? If the answer is "no," you may want to stay on the oxazepam until you're off the antidepressant. 

1

 

 

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MarliesDutch Contributor

MarliesDutch

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Posted

Hi @Shep,

 

your answer triggers some more questions.
Sorry for all the questions, but I need some more understanding before making an informed decision (and I can't deny I'm a bit obsessive due to the withdrawl... old habit back again, full blown...).

 

  1. I think I can sleep without a benzo, not sure since is has been a few weeks without a benzo in my system. But certainly willing to try. I've always been a good sleeper prior to withdrawl.
    What caused me not to sleep was: sleepshocks when falling asleep, brainzaps and sort of akathisia in stomacharea around 4pm. I think those symptoms are gone. 
  2. I'm not tapering Paroxetine in the next few months. First want to be stable and okay again. So that would mean a long time on oxazepam; I don't think that is preferred.
  3. So going back from Lora to Oxa again? Isn't that a heavy switch back or way better then staying on Lora? Would that switch back cause any symptoms and in what timeframe would that be? 
  4. I went to my GP this morning and proposed two options: 
    a) taper Lora to 2x 0,25 a day (half of current dose) or
    b) leave out the night-dose, which leaves only 1x 0,5mg a day
    Both options for a day or 2/3 and then taper further / stop.
  5. When I'm back on oxa again (I would say; 3 times a day 5mg or so?), can I taper safe and within a few weeks without causing withdrawl from Oxa?

And would you recommend options under 4 (taper Lora, no substitute of oxa) of 5 (switch back to oxa, stabilise and taper)?
In other words: what would be the least 'invasive' method?

 

 

And just saying: I'm so grateful for all the help and knowledge provided here!!!

 

 

 

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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Altostrata Grand Master

Altostrata

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Posted
On 4/19/2023 at 3:13 PM, MarliesDutch said:

Less depressed, more energetic, seeing perspective again and less physical symptoms. For no obvious reason (recovery?). Same for today.

 

More likely stabilizing on the benzo.

 

10 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

I went to my GP this morning and proposed two options: 
a) taper Lora to 2x 0,25 a day (half of current dose) or
b) leave out the night-dose, which leaves only 1x 0,5mg a day
Both options for a day or 2/3 and then taper further / stop.

 

You've already taken 2x 0.5mg  lorazepam for 9 days, and before that varying doses of oxazepam, some large, for a couple of weeks. To be safe, we'd consider your nervous system adapted to a benzo.

 

@Shep What do you think -- how about trying reducing the morning dose to 0.25mg first? If it works, then cut the nighttime dose to 0.25mg?

 

Re (b): Lorazepam's half-life is too short to take only once a day. 

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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MarliesDutch Contributor

MarliesDutch

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Posted

@Shep @Altostrata

 

Before going to bed, only took 0,25 Lora in stead op 0,5.

So need to know what to do with next dose (in 8 hours from know).

And what symptoms do I need to watch out for if 0.25 doesn’t work out?

 

April 20 felt bad emotionaly, but since yesterday april 21 feel very bad physically. Feverish without fever, red cheeks, warm, faster heartrate, flusher, tensed stomach, less apetite againg.

It’s been 4 weeks since stabilising on 2,5mg Paroxetine. Would have expected a bit more positivity by now… 

 

 

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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MarliesDutch Contributor

MarliesDutch

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  • Author
Posted

Also: slept less good this night after 0,25. Partly due to really not feeling well, maybe partly because of lower dose? Woke up more, difficult to fall asleep again.

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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Shep Grand Master

Shep

Posted
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Posted
4 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

Before going to bed, only took 0,25 Lora in stead op 0,5.

So need to know what to do with next dose (in 8 hours from know).

 

2 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

Also: slept less good this night after 0,25. Partly due to really not feeling well, maybe partly because of lower dose? Woke up more, difficult to fall asleep again.

 

I'm concerned that you're either not waiting to get advice from us before acting, or in this case, ignoring the the advice that's given. This is an ongoing pattern in your thread. 

 

Alto had already written: 

 

11 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

More likely stabilizing on the benzo.

 

 

You've already taken 2x 0.5mg  lorazepam for 9 days, and before that varying doses of oxazepam, some large, for a couple of weeks. To be safe, we'd consider your nervous system adapted to a benzo.

 

@Shep What do you think -- how about trying reducing the morning dose to 0.25mg first? If it works, then cut the nighttime dose to 0.25mg?

 

Re (b): Lorazepam's half-life is too short to take only once a day. 

 

It's always best to preserve sleep as long as you can by being very strategic with how you do this. That's why Alto had suggested removing the morning dose, not the nighttime dose. 

 

4 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

It’s been 4 weeks since stabilising on 2,5mg Paroxetine. Would have expected a bit more positivity by now… 

 

This likely wasn't so much stabilizing on Paroxetine, but more likely going on oxazepam. 

 

This right here is a sign of dependency:

 

4 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

April 20 felt bad emotionaly, but since yesterday april 21 feel very bad physically. Feverish without fever, red cheeks, warm, faster heartrate, flusher, tensed stomach, less apetite againg.

 

3 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

Also: slept less good this night after 0,25. Partly due to really not feeling well, maybe partly because of lower dose? Woke up more, difficult to fall asleep again.

 

This has dragged out long enough that you may now be dependent on Lorazepam. If you feel the lorazepam is helping at least as much as the oxazepam (and remember - you were taking the oxazepam very erratically), than you may want to stay on it. 

 

This is the latest from the FDA on benzos:

 

FDA requiring Boxed Warning updated to improve safe use of benzodiazepine drug class

 

The FDA guidelines state: Physical dependence can occur when benzodiazepines are taken steadily for several days to weeks, even as prescribed. 

 

You started the lorazepam on April 12, which was 10 days ago. It's possible dependency has already set in. 

 

My concern is less about dependency on a benzo at this point, and more concerned that your constant changes are going to kindle your nervous system. 

 

Hypersensitivity and Kindling

 

It would be better to stay on the lorazepam consistently and let your nervous system stabilize than to rapid taper off it and crash your nervous system. 

 

What is your gut reaction - do you think going off benzos completely now is a good idea? Do you feel that lorazepam is working better or at least as good as the oxazepam? If so, you may want to stay on it, go into a very long hold (several months), and then got off the antidepressant first, followed by the benzo. 

 

 

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Sebas Contributor

Sebas

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Posted
6 hours ago, MarliesDutch said:

Also: slept less good this night after 0,25. Partly due to really not feeling well, maybe partly because of lower dose? Woke up more, difficult to fall asleep again.

One way or the other, now or in the future, sleeping issues will be a part of withdrawal. Lying awake, insomnia, vivid dreams, restlessness, falling in and out of sleep, shallow sleep, night time anxiety etc. Just rest as an alternative.

 

3 hours ago, Shep said:

It's always best to preserve sleep as long as you can by being very strategic with how you do this. That's why Alto had suggested removing the morning dose, not the nighttime dose. 

 

Given you tapered evening dose in stead of morning dose and shep's warning about new changes to CNS i.r.t. kindling i would repeat yesterday's taper again today.

 

Trying to perform a benzo taper (if possible) would be beneficial in midterm perspective. 

 

If this evening taper (hopefully) leads to stabilisation then thereafter you could taper morning dose in the same way. 

 

In my opinion, given current circumstances, that would be least disruptive to CNS.

 

1
  • 45 years old male
  • job in spatial planning
  • into sports, animals and nature
  • Started using 20 mg Paroxetine (Paxil) in 2004 for stressrelated anxiety/depression
  • Attempted several times to stop, starting a few years after 2004
  • Found out in 2015 about paxil withdrawal symptoms and the 5-10% taper guideline
  • Started using liquid paxil in 2015/2016
  • 2018 --> 11.2 mg of paxil
  • 2019-2023 developed severe food- and other sensitivities (anti imflammatory, anti oxidant, food colourings, oils, herbs, chemicals etc.)
  • 12/2023 Poop-out/tolerance, introducing brassmonkey slide method 0.1mg/week
  • 26/1/2024 10 mg (journey halfway).
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MarliesDutch Contributor

MarliesDutch

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Posted

A little update after a few weeks.

Last time I posted, things took a turn for the worse. Couldn’t cope anymore, panicy, bought stuff to end my life. I was totaly done with it. Serious.
So I called ‘prevention hotline’ to vent and after that I got back in touch with the crisisteam from the hospital.

 

In stead of two weeks prior, this time they also offered daily sessions at home incl more Lorazepam to stabilize and get rid of the acute suicidal danger. That was April 23rd. They also did some bloodwork to see how I’m metabolising on the ‘CYP’ enzymes (hopefully results follow somewhere coming week).

 

Since that day I’m doing better on Lora (upped to 3x 0,75mg a day, from 2x 0,5mg a day). Feel more stable, less physical symptoms, less panic and depressed thoughts. I’m sort of functioning again.
I have moments when I think ‘I have my life back’, but also moments when I think ‘here we go again’. 

 

Don’t quite know where it will go from here. At this point waiting for an intake at a nearby psychiatrist for therapy (ACT/ mindfullness/ compassion) and medical/medicinal counseling and advise. That will be May 25th. 
 

I hope the psychiatrist is willing to ‘team up’ together. Look at my history, symptoms and wants to support me

in figuring out where to go from here, with Lorazepam and Paroxetine.

That means: not adding anything into it, but making an informed decision together on a tapering plan that is less disruptive and as gentle as possible. 
And also: most wise to prevent recurrence of my primary problems.

 

I think my first goal is to gently taper Lorazepam. See how that turns out. 
If possible going to zero and stabilize at zero for a few months.

 

And than taking steps with Paroxetine. At this point I’m not sure if it’s safe enough to go without any AD, as 2,5mg is still 48% of receptors…

I thought I was almost at zero, but I guess that’s not the case.
So I have to review things that have changed from 10 to 2,5mg Paroxetine (and things did change, but made things also more challenging), to see what is the most wise decision.

Further taper? Other AD as a subsitute? No changes at all? We’ll see.

 

So thinks look a bit more stable, but I guess that’s on the Lora… (also wondering what happens if I come

down on the Lora, what/if I will notice from the earlier Paroxetine taper 3,0-2,5mg). 
 

Thoughts about interdose withdrawl and tapering while being physically dependant cause anxiety (like: I can’t handle being so unstable again… and don’t want to anymore). So trying to avoid thinking about it.  


Still keeping as much of a daily/normal routine as possible. Added aromatherapy (lavender) to my routine and last week did some gardening chores (“balcony”). 
 

Plus on the Lora: I have great apetite again and a few extra kg’s are very welcome right know.


 

Might be coming back here for some advise on the Lora-taper. I have a feeling I might be experiencing interdose withdrawl. Need a few more days to see if that’s what’s realy happening.

I know Ashton says: go to Diazepam. But that would be a third benzo in the system and not everyone is responding well to that change.

So what else to do with interdose withdrawl (if that would be the case)?

 

 

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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LotusRising Contributor

LotusRising

Posted
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Posted
47 minutes ago, MarliesDutch said:

I know Ashton says: go to Diazepam. But that would be a third benzo in the system and not everyone is responding well to that change.

So what else to do with interdose withdrawl (if that would be the case)?

 

What is happening that you think you're getting interdose withdrawal?

 

I'm sure a moderator will chime in, but you could try dosing the lorazepam 4 times a day if you have interdose withdrawal. Not everyone does well switching over to valium, and it also adds on a number of weeks to your taper while you transition. If you are doing well on lorazepam (and you are stable on it), it may be better to taper straight from lorazepam. Lots of people can do it successfully. 

1

2003-2009 on and off various SSRI's for short periods, Ativan prn

2010-2011 Ativan, up to 1.5mg/day - tapered off without issue

2013-2021 ativan 1-1.5mg 10-12x/month, daily starting Oct 21 to help with buspar WD

2016 - Effexor 75mg, short-term

2021 Mar -Jun Buspar ADR at high dose, tapered 3 months

2021 Aug Wellbutrin 150mg for 5 days (ADR), then MIrtazapine 7.5mg for 7 days (ADR)

Oct 22/21 - Direct switch ativan to clonazepam (don't do this)

Tapered clonaz Oct/21 - Apr/23  - 0mg!

 

Supplements: omega-3, mag-glycinate

 

"Believe that your tragedies, your losses, your sorrows, your hurt, happened for you, not to you. And I bless the thing that broke you down and cracked you open, because the world needs you open" - Rebecca Campbell

 

*** Disclaimer: Please note, my suggestions/comments are based on my own personal experiences. Please consult a knowledgeable practitioner to discuss decisions regarding your medical care *** 

 

                                                             *** Please do not send me PM's ***

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MarliesDutch Contributor

MarliesDutch

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Euhm, I have some ‘dips’ during the day. But I can’t figure out yet if those are ‘normal’, due to doing too much if I feel good or something else (like circadian thing like light in the morning).

 

I take Lora at: 08.15, 15.45 and 23.15. 

 

- Last days I’ve noticed that my last hour of sleep (06.00-07.30) are restless. (Fitbit also shows it).

- Same happens in the afternoon; get more emotional and tired (but not restless).

- Can’t really tell if same thing is happening before my last dose prior to bedtime.


Just this afternoon I felt a bit thight in the chest, warm head, little throat ache (had this prior to last crisis). But could also be due to being overstimulated (visited a friend, 5 hours incl traveling).

 

So I need a day or two to properly see what’s going on. 

 


 

NB:

Think not worth mentioning: during the weeks of crisis I developped a fungal infection in my mouth… On Nystatine since tuesday. Couldn’t find any interactions to Paroxetine or Lorazepam. Did decide to be on the safe side and prevent any systemic reactions: to rinse my mouth with it a few minutes for 4 times a day, but not swallowing it. That would be necessary if it was in my oesofagus or digestive system… GP was okay with this.

Paroxetine: 1995: seroxat at 11 yo for three months (?!). 2008: Jan: started 10mg, was hell (incl acathisia, dyskinesia). 2009: Feb: started taper, May: 0mg, July: went downhill fast (WD?), Dec: started 10mg again. 2015 + 2017: up to 20mg and down to 10mg, no WD. 2021: June: started taper, aug: 2,8mg, short WD, hold on 3mg, more emotional ever since and more frequent panic attacks. 2023: Jan 26: started taper, March 9: 2,2mg, got WD, hold, WD got worse, March 25: 2,5mg, April 4: missed a dose, 2x suicidal crisis April 11 and 23, severe WD ever since. Reinstatement after six months: Sept 5: 2,6mg, Sept 26: 2,7mg, Oct 23: 2,8mg, Dec 4: 2,9mg, Dec 25: 3,0mg and hold. About 80% recovered from severe WD. Not tapering further next years.


Benzo’s: 2002-2022: using appr. 5-10x 10mg oxa a year. 2008 + 2009: 3x 10mg oxa daily for two weeks when starting Prxt, no WD. 2008: used 10-20mg Dia for a few days for severe orofacial dyskinesia and akathisia (when starting Prxt + high dose Metoclopramide and severe underweight), no WD. 2022: used 15x 10mg oxa that year. 2023: March 1-24: around 60mg Oxa total. After March 25: oxa daily around 5-30mg, April 12: switched to 1mg Lora daily (crisis), April 23: 3mg Lora daily (2nd crisis), April 27: 2,25mg Lora daily, May 12: tapered further. June 20: reached 1mg Lora daily, got WD, July 01: 1,25mg Lora daily, no relief. Aug 25: 1,5mg Lora daily, got better after 5 days. Dec 5: 1,7mg Lora daily. 2024, started taper: Feb 01: 1,63mg. March 03: 1,599mg. March 24: 1,566mg.

 

Intermediate metaboliser (‘bit more slow’) on CYP2D6 (*1/*4) and CYP2C19 (*1/*2). Extensive (‘normal’) on CYP3A4.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/29018-marliesdutch-dutchie-tapering-paroxetine-paxil-14yrs

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LotusRising Contributor

LotusRising

Posted
  • Moderator
Posted

Yeah, hard to say at the moment, but definitely worth keeping track of over the next few days. 

2003-2009 on and off various SSRI's for short periods, Ativan prn

2010-2011 Ativan, up to 1.5mg/day - tapered off without issue

2013-2021 ativan 1-1.5mg 10-12x/month, daily starting Oct 21 to help with buspar WD

2016 - Effexor 75mg, short-term

2021 Mar -Jun Buspar ADR at high dose, tapered 3 months

2021 Aug Wellbutrin 150mg for 5 days (ADR), then MIrtazapine 7.5mg for 7 days (ADR)

Oct 22/21 - Direct switch ativan to clonazepam (don't do this)

Tapered clonaz Oct/21 - Apr/23  - 0mg!

 

Supplements: omega-3, mag-glycinate

 

"Believe that your tragedies, your losses, your sorrows, your hurt, happened for you, not to you. And I bless the thing that broke you down and cracked you open, because the world needs you open" - Rebecca Campbell

 

*** Disclaimer: Please note, my suggestions/comments are based on my own personal experiences. Please consult a knowledgeable practitioner to discuss decisions regarding your medical care *** 

 

                                                             *** Please do not send me PM's ***

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Shep Grand Master

Shep

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Posted

@MarliesDutch Why would you want to come off the benzo before the antidepressant? You were on Oxazepam and then switched to lorazepam and now you want off the lorazaepam - while you're still taking a stimulating antidepressant. 

 

 

Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?

 

The order of tapering is very important - taper stimulating drugs like SSRI's first and then taper the sedating drug last. This helps preserve sleep. 

 

Please re-read your thread. Knowing where you've been can be helpful in setting up a game plan for where you want to go. 

 

 

 

 

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