N2deep: 5 weeks on Olanzapine, hoping to get off

[N2deep]

Over the last 4-5 days my sleep has deteriorated, last night I got maybe 5 hours. I don't understand this. I last cut 16 days ago, and it was only a few percent. Things are getting worse, not better. I'm still possibly getting worse emotionally and still have twitches in my eye, though the twitching around my mouth has seemingly gone away.

[hayduke]

9 hours ago, N2deep said:

Over the last 4-5 days my sleep has deteriorated, last night I got maybe 5 hours. I don't understand this. I last cut 16 days ago, and it was only a few percent. Things are getting worse, not better. I'm still possibly getting worse emotionally and still have twitches in my eye, though the twitching around my mouth has seemingly gone away.

You might want to consider a tiny updose.  I had to do a long hold at 1.25mg, up from 1.2mg or so where I just wasn't settling.

[N2deep]

Thanks, Hayduke. I am cautiously optimistic. I got a good nights sleep last night. I also have had no eye twitches today, and that's the first time for that in at least 10 days. So I'm gonna hold the line for now - but if things get worse I'll definitely consider updosing, but I'm already 17 days at this dose, so I'm just hoping things settle.

 

I'm also better emotionally today, but still not comfortable. Minor akathesia, not hungry, emotional/OCD-like behaviour, overwhelmed by nothing etc.

 

But I'm definitely not going to let this happen again, I think this has been brewing for months, and I just pushed through what should have been obvious symptoms in the "hope" that they were unrelated to the drug, and in retrospect, it's so obvious they were - and the last number of days is the climax. This is way past my "comfort" zone. I've learned my lesson. I just hope it settles sooner than later.

[N2deep]

Lights out at 10pm, its now pushing 4am and i haven’t slept. I’m a bit freaked out now tbh. Thinking I’ll updose to 1.55 mg.

[Ryder]

Try hold at your dose of 1.50mg. 

Use other tools at night such as stretching, journalling, a movie to distract your mind until you are tired and ready to go back to bed. 

[N2deep]

I went from getting 9 hours of sleep every night to over the last 5 or so days it getting progressively worse and its now 6:30 am and I haven’t slept.   Can I take hydroxyzine? … its an antihistamine.

[FireflyFyte]

6 hours ago, N2deep said:

I went from getting 9 hours of sleep every night to over the last 5 or so days it getting progressively worse and its now 6:30 am and I haven’t slept.

 

How many days has it been of poor sleep?

Was your last drop on January 25?

[N2deep]

3 hours ago, FireflyFyte said:

 

How many days has it been of poor sleep?

Was your last drop on January 25?

Yes my last drop was January 25. About 5 or 6 days ago, I started to wake up earlier than normal, then 3 days ago, I only got 4-5 hours, 2 days ago I had a good 8 hours, then last night I didn't sleep at all. Before this sleep was totally normal. But generally the last 4-5 days have not been great during the day, it's definitely withdrawal. Lots of symptoms. It's just interesting the symptoms took that long to show themselves after the drop. I feel pretty terrible. Yesterday I thought symptoms were getting better, but then the total lack of sleep happened.

Though again, I think I was already experiencing symptoms before this, but things have just taken a turn for the worse (but before the last 5-6 days, sleep was not a problem)

 

My plan is to updose to 1.55mg tonight.

[hayduke]

4 hours ago, N2deep said:

My plan is to updose to 1.55mg tonight.

It seemed like I was crossing a receptor affinity boundary around 1.25mg.  The small updose and long hold relieved weeks of discomfort.  I was able to progress past it after that, although I would keep a much closer eye on dopamine supersensivity than I did that time.

Let us know how you go.

Edited February 13 by hayduke

[N2deep]

I'm just guessing but I think I got about 4 hours sleep, far better than nothing. I really hope a good hold can regenerate my healthy/normal sleep patterns. I noticed from the start of taking 1.50mg that it felt distinctly less tranquilizing after taking it, and when I wake up in the morning, none/less of that groggy feeling. So maybe I'm just at a spot, like you suggest Hayduke. I notice in your signature that your progression seems a bit slower from 2.5mg to 1.25mg than it was at lower levels. I'm just hoping I'm in the toughest part of the taper, though I'm sure it can be trying at any point.

[N2deep]

I also realize that the 10% or less per month speed is about right, for me at least. And no reason to push it because it just slows you down if you have to hold/updose. And being miserable, non-functional, insomnia etc. isn't remotely worth it to try to cut a few months from the taper, just doesn't work.

I realize this isn't exactly newfound wisdom for the forum, but people seemingly have to figure it out for themselves much of the time. I figured I hadn't been on for long at all so thought I'd push it and figure out my boundaries, just a tad ... didn't work, slowed me down, effed me up. Even though I started doing the 10% a month thing a couple months back, I never did a hold so the earlier speed's effects continued to build, should have held a while back.

[hayduke]

5 hours ago, N2deep said:

I also realize that the 10% or less per month speed is about right, for me at least. And no reason to push it because it just slows you down if you have to hold/updose. And being miserable, non-functional, insomnia etc. isn't remotely worth it to try to cut a few months from the taper, just doesn't work.

I realize this isn't exactly newfound wisdom for the forum, but people seemingly have to figure it out for themselves much of the time. I figured I hadn't been on for long at all so thought I'd push it and figure out my boundaries, just a tad ... didn't work, slowed me down, effed me up. Even though I started doing the 10% a month thing a couple months back, I never did a hold so the earlier speed's effects continued to build, should have held a while back.

It's definitely a teacher of patience.  I wish I had gone a lot slower below 1.25mg now.

[N2deep]

Got about 4 hours sleep again last night.

[FireflyFyte]

2 hours ago, N2deep said:

Got about 4 hours sleep again last night.

 

It might take a few more days to see if the up-dose to 1.55mg helps. I would try to hold, if possible.

[N2deep]

I've had pretty good sleep for the last 3-4 days, thankfully. Been feeling a good bit better as well (things were pretty rough) though I'm hoping my mood, anxiety etc. continue to improve. Still having a bit of twitching. When things were bad about a week ago one of my big toes was twitching so much it was impeding my sleep, that has lessened. So I intend to hold for a while. Thanks for the support, all.

[FireflyFyte]

On 2/19/2024 at 11:07 AM, N2deep said:

I've had pretty good sleep for the last 3-4 days, thankfully. Been feeling a good bit better as well (things were pretty rough) though I'm hoping my mood, anxiety etc. continue to improve.

 

I am glad to hear that you seem to be trending in the right direction.

 

On 2/19/2024 at 11:07 AM, N2deep said:

So I intend to hold for a while.

 

I think this is a good idea.

[N2deep]

Sleep - Fine

Twitching - presents a few times a day but very minor

Emotions - Yesterday I had a pretty big meltdown for a half hour, big-time neuro-emotions.

 

Symptoms to look out for once I've stabilized and commence tapering:

Crying, moaning, exasperation, overwhelm, muscle twitching, weird hungover feeling, sensitivity to content (scary or sad etc. movies), sleep problems, OCD-like tendencies, pacing around, anxiety (even minor), overthinking, not interested in my normal work/hobbies and can only catastrophize/think about negative things like this drug situation/withdrawal etc.

 

There's more but I'll have to update the list as I remember the symptoms.

 

Now, many of these symptoms only present once the wheels have already fallen off, and I'm destabilized. So I intend to be extra careful to hopefully never see them again once I'm stable. I am not currently employed, and I now realize that many of you who are will be paying much closer attention to symptoms as to make sure things don't get out of hand - so you stay employed. From mid-December I feel I pushed through obvious symptoms by thinking they were just regular me, but they weren't. I'm not sure how I was so deluded, but obviously the want to continue tapering unabated took over.

I tend to worry about things I probably shouldn't, and they get me into trouble. Thoughts that caused me to continue to taper when I shouldn't have which then destabilized me tended along the lines of, "the longer I'm on the drug may mean it's harder to come off, so I should continue" .... or "What if the doctor tells me I have to come off the drug, and she rips me off it, and ruins my life/gives me insane protracted withdrawal, supersensitivity psychosis, I end up in the psych ward and all that comes with that, so I should continue tapering even though I'm feeling symptoms" ....Now, my doctor is unlikely to do this, as she has in the past offered me seroquel for minor sleep issues (she's that type of doctor)... but the chance can never be a perfect 0%, and all my life I've tried to have total control over all situations (don't be like this it doesn't work out ... lol) and this drug situation really doesn't offer one any control over much of anything, and it's, uh, a hard pill to swallow. But as a guy I look up to, Hayduke says, "it's definitely a teacher of patience" ... so I guess I'll have to learn some. As well, my dad wisely stated that the only way things will get out of hand is if I destabilize myself to the point it's like some crisis situation and I had to go inpatient ... so the only way forward is stability and slow tapering, for as long as it takes.

 

It's quite the thing that the vast majority would never in their life end up in a psych ward, but the very drugs that are meant to help psychological health can very well cause anyone to land in one.

[hayduke]

9 hours ago, N2deep said:

Sleep - Fine

Twitching - presents a few times a day but very minor

Emotions - Yesterday I had a pretty big meltdown for a half hour, big-time neuro-emotions.

 

Symptoms to look out for once I've stabilized and commence tapering:

Crying, moaning, exasperation, overwhelm, muscle twitching, weird hungover feeling, sensitivity to content (scary or sad etc. movies), sleep problems, OCD-like tendencies, pacing around, anxiety (even minor), overthinking, not interested in my normal work/hobbies and can only catastrophize/think about negative things like this drug situation/withdrawal etc.

 

There's more but I'll have to update the list as I remember the symptoms.

 

Now, many of these symptoms only present once the wheels have already fallen off, and I'm destabilized. So I intend to be extra careful to hopefully never see them again once I'm stable. I am not currently employed, and I now realize that many of you who are will be paying much closer attention to symptoms as to make sure things don't get out of hand - so you stay employed. From mid-December I feel I pushed through obvious symptoms by thinking they were just regular me, but they weren't. I'm not sure how I was so deluded, but obviously the want to continue tapering unabated took over.

I tend to worry about things I probably shouldn't, and they get me into trouble. Thoughts that caused me to continue to taper when I shouldn't have which then destabilized me tended along the lines of, "the longer I'm on the drug may mean it's harder to come off, so I should continue" .... or "What if the doctor tells me I have to come off the drug, and she rips me off it, and ruins my life/gives me insane protracted withdrawal, supersensitivity psychosis, I end up in the psych ward and all that comes with that, so I should continue tapering even though I'm feeling symptoms" ....Now, my doctor is unlikely to do this, as she has in the past offered me seroquel for minor sleep issues (she's that type of doctor)... but the chance can never be a perfect 0%, and all my life I've tried to have total control over all situations (don't be like this it doesn't work out ... lol) and this drug situation really doesn't offer one any control over much of anything, and it's, uh, a hard pill to swallow. But as a guy I look up to, Hayduke says, "it's definitely a teacher of patience" ... so I guess I'll have to learn some. As well, my dad wisely stated that the only way things will get out of hand is if I destabilize myself to the point it's like some crisis situation and I had to go inpatient ... so the only way forward is stability and slow tapering, for as long as it takes.

 

It's quite the thing that the vast majority would never in their life end up in a psych ward, but the very drugs that are meant to help psychological health can very well cause anyone to land in one.

I recognise a lot of these symptoms from towards the end of my last taper.  In my case flashbacks got more frequent, leading to constant survival mode - that may be comparable to what you describe when things get upsetting.  In hindsight I would've done a much longer hold with these sorts of symptoms becoming prominent.

It's a really good sign the twitchiness is settling with that small updose.  Another upside to long holds is being able to enjoy relative stability and take a holiday from wd symptoms.

[N2deep]

Hayduke, I could sure use a "holiday" from WD.

 

Well, windows and waves I guess. Only slept maybe 2 hours last night, and have been feeling low today. Had a bad crying freakout meltdown today. This never happened once in all the decades of my life before I took this godforsaken poison, now it's a somewhat regular occurrence. It's starting to bother me how long it's been since my last little down-dose and these symptoms are still prominent.

[N2deep]

Wed night 21 Feb - 2 hours sleep

Thursday night 22 Feb - 8-9 hours sleep

Friday night 23 Feb - ZERO sleep

 

My sleep hygiene is excellent. Blackout curtains, lights out around 9:30pm, 1mg melatonin, try to minimize screens before bed, white noise, earplugs. I used to have a hard time getting to sleep, but once asleep I'd always sleep for 8-9+ hours. I need a lot of sleep to feel alright. During the worst of Long Covid I was getting an average of 2-4 hours a night, sometimes none ... this went on for a couple months, then got better.

 

I've been thinking, can we separate withdrawal from destabilization? ... like why do some people just have a few niggling symptoms for a few days then WDnormal, and me I haven't cut for a month (small cut) and I'm still getting rocked. Now I went faster than I should have before that cut which I think has destabilized me, but man, I just don't understand.

[hayduke]

10 hours ago, N2deep said:

Wed night 21 Feb - 2 hours sleep

Thursday night 22 Feb - 8-9 hours sleep

Friday night 23 Feb - ZERO sleep

 

My sleep hygiene is excellent. Blackout curtains, lights out around 9:30pm, 1mg melatonin, try to minimize screens before bed, white noise, earplugs. I used to have a hard time getting to sleep, but once asleep I'd always sleep for 8-9+ hours. I need a lot of sleep to feel alright. During the worst of Long Covid I was getting an average of 2-4 hours a night, sometimes none ... this went on for a couple months, then got better.

 

I've been thinking, can we separate withdrawal from destabilization? ... like why do some people just have a few niggling symptoms for a few days then WDnormal, and me I haven't cut for a month (small cut) and I'm still getting rocked. Now I went faster than I should have before that cut which I think has destabilized me, but man, I just don't understand.

 

Glad you got a good night's sleep on the Thursday night.  It's good to try and make yourself comfortable when you can't sleep rather than get anxious over it.

 

Often the effects of withdrawing too fast are delayed, a timespan of months is not extraordinary there.  I would keep holding for longer and see how things settle as you go, especially if other symptoms have been improving.  If you feel the small updose you did isn't doing enough all round, you could consider going up to 1.6, but I would favour waiting - it's only been a couple of weeks.

[N2deep]

I got 5-6 hours sleep last night, but I still updosed to 1.6mg today ... I'm not sure things aren't actually still getting worse overall. Other than the twitching, that went away. I feel a lot of anxiety, getting some akathesia. Did you get that hayduke? ... did you ever lose your sleep while you were tapering?

[N2deep]

I slept about 4 hours last night. I think the last time I felt very stable was in late November or very early December, on 1.9 or 1.8, but I think I was definitely experiencing symptoms before I dropped to 1.75. I sure hope I can stabilize soon, I'm having a lot of trouble coping. Anxiety, some akathisia, OCD-symptoms, emotional meltdowns, I cry a lot. If I was getting good sleep consistently that sure would help. I would not be able to hold any type of job in this state, that's for sure. That's something I don't understand ... people on here complain that their symptoms are really bad, but they are still working, so how does that make sense?

[Tale]

Hi @N2deep,

Have you tried taking melatonin for your sleep? I recently started taking 0.5 mg every night and it seems to help a lot. My sleep was all over the place. I couldn't fall asleep until 4 am and I would wake up several times. Now I can fall asleep at 1 am and I don't wake up in the middle of the night. Everyone is different tho.

[N2deep]

Hi Tale, yeah I take 1mg of Melatonin every night for the last 10 days or so, maybe I should have started at .5mg, I don't know.

[N2deep]

At the time I took my dose today, I chose to go back to 1.55mg. I don't think that one dose of 1.6 should make any difference to the overall situation, hopefully. We just never know what decision is right in all this.

[FireflyFyte]

11 hours ago, N2deep said:

At the time I took my dose today, I chose to go back to 1.55mg. I don't think that one dose of 1.6 should make any difference to the overall situation, hopefully.

 

As hayduke mentioned, I would try to stay at one dose for at least a few weeks, if not longer, to see if you stabilize. Jumping around in dosing can cause instability.

[hayduke]

11 hours ago, N2deep said:

At the time I took my dose today, I chose to go back to 1.55mg. I don't think that one dose of 1.6 should make any difference to the overall situation, hopefully. We just never know what decision is right in all this.

I found changing one single dose didn't leave much of a lasting blip.  YMMV of course.

 

If you're still feeling cruddy in another couple of weeks, or things get utterly unbearable, I think it would be OK to bug out back to 1.8mg and do a looong hold.  The downside of doing that would be the risk that it mightn't alleviate your symptoms.

I did notice significantly lightened sleep around the 1.x mg dosages.  I took L-theanine a fair bit around then, which I found helpful with anxiety.  I didn't get too many sleepless nights, but there were a few.

[N2deep]

Thanks for your replies. I got about 5 hours sleep last night, but I must say, I've felt relatively good today. Had a bit of a meltdown, things can set me off, but other than that I didn't have much of that need to pace around or too much anxiety. Partly the weather, maybe. It's usually frigid this time of year but it was over 20 degrees today and I was laying out in my field on a hay wagon in shorts/no shirt soakin' it in. When I was really bad last summer when the doctor told me to halve my dose, it was really laying outside in the sun (when I wasn't pacing around crying) that got me through ... if that would have happened during winter ... eesh. Anyway, hoping for more days like this.

[N2deep]

I got 8 hours sleep last night, thankfully. I wake up a lot but got back to sleep. Feeling a bit off today, but tolerable - some anxiety, slight yucky feeling in brain, easily overwhelmed. One issue I have is I don't think I'm much in tune with how I'm feeling, so I'm not able to pick up on little symptoms until things get out of hand. I have to get better at that.

[N2deep]

Unfortunately got 2-3 hours sleep last night. Better than nothing. Feel pretty rotten, but I guess hardly any sleep will do that to you. Hard to parse whether anxiety, feeling poisoned, etc. is from straight WD symptoms or just lack of sleep. Haven't had any complete meltdowns yet today but the day is still relatively young. Hope all you other soldiers in the trenches are having a good one.

[N2deep]

Around 6 hours sleep last night I think. When I state the hours, it's generally broken, like last night I got 5 and then got another hour after laying there for an hour. And I generally lay in bed for at least 10-11 hours a night. So there is a good bit of not sleeping even when things go somewhat well. I try to go to bed early so I have lots of time to fall asleep without worrying that it is now 3am and I haven't slept ... much less pressure at 10:30 for instance.

I've been trying to eat a low histamine diet for the last number of days, thinking it might help symptoms. I noticed my eyes feel like they are burning for the last couple weeks, and that has gone away mostly. Just thinking about this drug's effect on histamine receptors, and the fact I'm having trouble sleeping must be from dropping that histamine blockade as I go lower.

[FireflyFyte]

13 hours ago, N2deep said:

Around 6 hours sleep last night I think. When I state the hours, it's generally broken, like last night I got 5 and then got another hour after laying there for an hour. And I generally lay in bed for at least 10-11 hours a night. So there is a good bit of not sleeping even when things go somewhat well. I try to go to bed early so I have lots of time to fall asleep without worrying that it is now 3am and I haven't slept ... much less pressure at 10:30 for instance.

 

Getting 6 hours of sleep during withdrawals is not uncommon. Keep up good sleep hygiene and hopefully your up-dose will be enough to return more sleep.

[N2deep]

Got 7+ hours sleep last night. Unfortunately today I've had a lot of muscle twitching in a couple toes on my right foot. I thought the twitching was pretty much over for the time being. It's scary not knowing whether it is just withdrawal-related or is actually the start of Tardive Dyskinisia. I guess it is more likely withdrawal, given my low dose, but how the hell can you know? Also, what the hell can you do about it? ...If you tell a doctor they will likely just tell me to cold turkey the med, even though that can bring on TD. What a freaking nightmare.

[hayduke]

7 hours ago, N2deep said:

Got 7+ hours sleep last night. Unfortunately today I've had a lot of muscle twitching in a couple toes on my right foot. I thought the twitching was pretty much over for the time being. It's scary not knowing whether it is just withdrawal-related or is actually the start of Tardive Dyskinisia. I guess it is more likely withdrawal, given my low dose, but how the hell can you know? Also, what the hell can you do about it? ...If you tell a doctor they will likely just tell me to cold turkey the med, even though that can bring on TD. What a freaking nightmare.

Glad you are getting some better sleep.

TD is dopamine related and reportedly likely to ease with time.  Another reason for a good long hold, let your brain downregulate its dopamine receptors and catch up to your current dosage.  This was a step I wasn't aware I missed in my olanzapine taper until later.

[N2deep]

Q: Hayduke, when looking at your "taper visualized as a graph", it looks like you did a lot more holds during the 2.5-1.25mg range (or maybe it's just easier to see holds higher on the graph) ... when you held, did you do it because you were still feeling symptoms, or just because you wanted a vacation from tapering? ... maybe both. Did you find the 2-5-1.25mg range the hardest? ... I just find it odd how long it's taking for me to get better. Like the classic, "a few days of niggling symptoms" after a drop is not applying in my case.

 

Things seemed to be going in the right direction since I last posted. No crying meltdowns since then, until today. Had a pretty sizable one, uncontrollable sobbing and rage, pacing ... all that good stuff. Thankfully, these are time limited, and settle. But when I'm in them, man, I wanna ... disappear. 100% withdrawal, 0% real me. I think that I am generally better than I was 2-3 weeks ago, but I've got a ways to go. I find it disconcerting how long it's taking for stabilization.

 

 

Notes (pay no attention):

The last 4 days I got 7+, 5, 7+, 6 hours sleep ... I just keep these for my notes in this journal, I don't write this stuff down anywhere else, so pay no attention.

Twitching has settled mostly.