N2deep: 5 weeks on Olanzapine, hoping to get off

[N2deep]

Hi,

I was put on Olanzapine after having Long Covid and spending many weeks virtually bedridden in a dark room because of light sensitivity as well as generally feeling like death. This is quite typical, except I took the dark room thing a little (way) too far and developed hallucinations (ganzfeld effect). They take a bit to go away it seems and I got freaked out by that and they put me on Olanzapine (5mg), though the doctor stated that it almost certainly was caused by the dark and will clear up, and did, but now I'm stuck on this serious drug and see there is really no guidelines whatsoever for getting off. My doctor said to drop to 2.5mg for a week and go off. The pharmacist said something far more absurd.

 

I was at 5mg for 4 weeks, and did a 50% reduction to 2.5 for 5 days and at that point figured it would be safer to drop down to 1.25 for a week than stop entirely. I have been at 1.25 for 3 days and am feeling heightened anxiety, sleep disturbance and just feel off.

 

What I feel are withdrawal symptoms appeared at day 3 after the drop, is this to be expected for this med?

Should I go back to 2.5mg and hold for some time?

I just feel if only on this drug for 5 weeks it seems silly to taper for months, what do you kind folks advise?

 

I've read this printout: https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mental-health/treatments-and-wellbeing/stopping-antidepressants

 

Thank you so much for any input. I know I'm starting from a low dose and time period and thus am lucky, but am still quite scared by all the stuff I've been reading.

Edited July 19, 2023 by manymoretodays
name to topic title

[hayduke]

Hi and welcome, @N2deep

 

Sorry to hear you got put on this drug during your no doubt already gruelling covid experience!

I would probably go back to 2.5mg and hold steady - a 50% cut is already huge.  

I have no personal experience of withdrawing from shorter periods on these drugs, so keep us updated with how you get on.  Others will have more to suggest.

I would try 2mg after that, then 1.5mg - if I couldn't tolerate either of those well, I'd have to make smaller cuts and hold for longer.  Often, for shorter stints, some people can come off quicker, but if you're not finding the experience acceptable, it's gotta be patience instead.

 

Can you please make a signature for us, listing start, change and end dates for drugs and dosages?  Thank you in advance.

[N2deep]

Hi Hayduke, thanks a lot for the reply!

 

My big question now I guess is how much withdrawal symptoms are normal and expected? ... For example, when one properly (slowly) drops, is one expected to feel NO symptoms?, at what point does one up-dose?

You know I'm happy to go through any short-term pain, it's far more the dangers of protracted withdrawal symptoms that scares me.

 

Last night I took 3.75mg, because as far as I can tell, concerning the half-life of the drug, that would get me just above the 2.5mg level in the blood sooner, rather than a couple more days. Maybe that was wrong, but no guidance was available. I was debating whether to stay at 3.75 or 2.5, but I think I will try to stick it out at 2.5mg, because for the most part, I felt ok at that dose. People seem to cite about 2-3 days for olanzapine withdrawals to happen and that seemed to be the case for me.

[manymoretodays]

Hi N2 deep,

Welcome aboard.  It does look like you got started since you sent me a PM.

4 hours ago, N2deep said:

My big question now I guess is how much withdrawal symptoms are normal and expected? ... For example, when one properly (slowly) drops, is one expected to feel NO symptoms?, at what point does one up-dose?

It's generally best NOT to continue a taper if you are experiencing WD(withdrawal) symptoms.  Here's the list of common WD symptoms:

Also see Dr. Joseph Glenmullen's withdrawal symptom checklist in this topic Read this to identify withdrawal symptoms.

 

Zyprexa really is not a AD(antidepressant) either.  It's in the what they call neuroleptic/AP(antipsychotic) class.  Here's our topic on tapering it:

Tips for tapering off Zyprexa(olanzapine)

 

4 hours ago, N2deep said:

Last night I took 3.75mg, because as far as I can tell, concerning the half-life of the drug, that would get me just above the 2.5mg level in the blood sooner, rather than a couple more days. Maybe that was wrong, but no guidance was available. I was debating whether to stay at 3.75 or 2.5, but I think I will try to stick it out at 2.5mg, because for the most part, I felt ok at that dose. People seem to cite about 2-3 days for olanzapine withdrawals to happen and that seemed to be the case for me.

 

Did you updose to 2.5 mg, and hold for 4-7 days at least before updosing again to 3.75 mg?  Consistency is helpful for stabilization.  The more you jump around in dosage, the less likely it is that you'll begin to feel more stable.

The rule of 3 KI's, simple, slow, and stable

 

It does sound like you might stay at 2.5 mg now.  Do take it at the same time, same dose.

Keep some notes going too, first for yourself, and then to share here as to how it is going.

Note the date, the time on the left, and then on the right your drug(s) by name and dosage, also any supplements taken, and symptoms as they occur throughout the day.

 

5 weeks is long enough, unfortunately for you body to have become physiologically dependent on olanzapine.  I think you'll definitely benefit if you stop jumping around in dosage, and then, when ready begin more cautiously with 10% tapers or less from each previous dosage.  That will help you ease into tapering, to see how you do too, with less than 25%, 50%, or 75% tapers from your dose.

 

Okay, all for now.  Welcome again. 

Oh, are you on any other drug(s) right now.  If so, please add them to your signature.  Thanks.

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

manymoretodays(mmt)

 

[hayduke]

20 hours ago, N2deep said:

Hi Hayduke, thanks a lot for the reply!

 

My big question now I guess is how much withdrawal symptoms are normal and expected? ... For example, when one properly (slowly) drops, is one expected to feel NO symptoms?, at what point does one up-dose?

You know I'm happy to go through any short-term pain, it's far more the dangers of protracted withdrawal symptoms that scares me.

 

Last night I took 3.75mg, because as far as I can tell, concerning the half-life of the drug, that would get me just above the 2.5mg level in the blood sooner, rather than a couple more days. Maybe that was wrong, but no guidance was available. I was debating whether to stay at 3.75 or 2.5, but I think I will try to stick it out at 2.5mg, because for the most part, I felt ok at that dose. People seem to cite about 2-3 days for olanzapine withdrawals to happen and that seemed to be the case for me.

Ouch, I would have just stuck at 2.5mg rather than try and jump up more first.  Still, I bet you slept!

We all get symptoms coming off, it's a question of wrangling the taper to keep them manageable.  Stability first, "any reason to hold is a good one".

[N2deep]

Thanks so much for your reply @manymoretodays

It looks like I've made bad decisions but when you're feeling terrible and there is no doctors or anyone to help, it's hard to know what to do.

 

Hi again @hayduke

I'm curious to know how long it took you to feel withdrawal symptoms when you'd make a cut, on the olanzapine? ... does 2-3 days sound about right?

 

I took 2.5 mg last night and intend to stay there, hope it gets better.

[N2deep]

I want to again state what I've done. I know it's all stupid but I need to know what you all think I should do.

 

I was on 5mg for 4 weeks

 

I dropped down to 2.5mg for FIVE DAYS

 

then dropped down to 1.25 for 3 DAYS ... at which point the withdrawals hit and I slammed 3.75mg on Tuesday night, and last night I did 2.5mg

 

I feel rough, I started feeling bad 2 days after starting the 1.25mg ... I thought this must be the 1.25mg making me feel so bad, but I'd only dropped to 2.5mg a week before that ... so maybe it is the 2.5mg making me feel bad.

 

I can't stop pacing around, I have crying fits, I'm not hungry at all. I'm effed.

 

I only stopped taking 5mg on the Monday last week (10th of July)

 

How long do I stick it out at 2.5mg and how bad of withdrawals am I supposed to just tough out. I just don't know what to do. 

[hayduke]

6 hours ago, N2deep said:

Hi again @hayduke

I'm curious to know how long it took you to feel withdrawal symptoms when you'd make a cut, on the olanzapine? ... does 2-3 days sound about right?

 

Usually 3-4 days for a typical 10% or smaller cut for me.  But everyone's different, and you will probably feel bumped around a bit till you even out on 2.5mg.

[N2deep]

If after the 4-7 days of staying at 2.5mg (quoting @manymoretodays), and I still feel crippling withdrawal symptoms like I do now, then what is the next move? I really don't know if I would have stayed stable at 2.5mg, I was only there for 5 days before jumping down to 1.25. 

I cannot believe the hell that so many people are experiencing just because doctors and pharmacists are so incredibly stupid. If I just would have known about slowly tapering this never would have happened, I am not functional here and now.

[manymoretodays]

Hi N2deep.  Are you sleeping?  I came off Zyprexa long ago and remember.....ugh, just how awful it felt.  If I were you, and symptoms feel unmanageable, I think I would updose.  Back to 3.75 mg sounds good.  When is the last time you felt okay or without WD symptoms?  If you recall.  And on what dosage?  What symptoms are you having now?  Okay, best. L, P, H, and G.  mmt.

[N2deep]

Hi @manymoretodays, it indeed is awful. I got about 4 hours sleep last night.

 

Well I felt fine on the original 5mg, then when I went down to 2.5mg I stayed there for 5 days, and felt quite ok, even a couple days later after I'd taken a couple doses of 1.25 I felt ok, then BAM I got hit with the WD. Altogether 6 days after going to 2.5mg I felt fine. Last Sunday I felt fine.

Symptoms: Anxiety, panic, crying fits, not sleeping much, not hungry, can't stop pacing around ... but then there are points where I feel (somewhat better) for periods during the day, and then bam more emotional meltdowns

 

Do I wait the 4-7 days as mentioned (this is day 3) at 2.5mg before updosing?

Is feeling bad withdrawals bad for you or more likely to lead to protracted WD's, is it safer to updose? ... So much I just don't know.

 

[manymoretodays]

Can you get to the tapering forum?  Then scroll down to Tapering FAQ's.  Once that list comes up, scroll down to "reinstating".  Which also applies to updosing.  ( sorry I cannot link as yet from my device and my PC is on the blink).  Hopefully, that will answer your questions.  Keep us updated.  Did I ask for Notes/ daily drug and symptom logs?  Try some and then post.  Date.  Times on the left.  To the right of times note your drug by name and dose and symptoms as well, when they occur, describe them, and intensity(some will rate)    Hang in.  L, P, H, and G. mmt

[manymoretodays]

Hey.  Used my clipboard.  Here's the link.  https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/7562-about-reinstating-and-stabilizing-to-reduce-withdrawal-symptoms/

Edited July 21, 2023 by manymoretodays

[N2deep]

@manymoretodays I'll do a full symptom log tomorrow

 

For today just to make sure I'm understanding:

 

July21

4pm: symptoms: irritability, extreme emotions, can't sit or stand still, thinking about the "S" word, feel very bad                                                                                Olanzapine 2.5mg 

6pm: Took dose, mellowed out somewhat

 

I hope that's how you explained. I seem to get really bad a few hours before a dose the last few days, then take the dose and am a good bit mellower. I don't understand this because I thought with the half-life of olanzapine that it would be in the blood in a pretty steady state. But I feel worst the few hours before the dose. I honestly want to get freaking admitted somewhere, thinking maybe they could help me to do what is right with the dosing. A dose increase up to 3.75 is too much I think, def in one shot. I want to get some of this drug compounded so I could make small changes, but the damn doctor didn't call today was supposed to. I'm so scared of doing the wrong thing and being toast. How long should it take for withdrawals to go away? Thanks again so much for the help.

[manymoretodays]

Here's the post with a sample note:

-using-dr-glenmullens-checklist-to-track-symptom-patterns-and-progress/?_

Keep notes on paper until you have a full 24 hours, and then share

 

It's good that after your dose you mellowed out some.  With reinstatements and updoses  symptoms are hopefully modified some, or become more tolerable, they may not totally dissipate. 

 

Do you have support people?  If not, try to find some, or a couple that you can talk with and who might be able to help you get through.  Just tell them you are having a really hard time, or even a drug reaction they might understand if you can't explain withdrawal to their understanding.  

 

Use any non drug coping that helps- to stay calm and get through.  I once had to basically mummify myself in a blanket.......wrap myself up snug with just my head sticking out.  I remember pacing.  Weighted blankets may help as well.  We do have a topic. 

 

We all wish there was more understanding and places to go when it gets so difficult.  It's never a crime to go inpatient if needed, or to the ER(emergency) and you may find some understanding.

 

You can check for providers here:  go to the Tapering forum, and the 3rd pinned topic has a list of Recommended doctors, therapists, and clinics that you can check.

 

Mad In America's Service Directory

 

and: Outro health, is available in parts of Canada.  They do tapering and withdrawal support as well.   

 

I'm still having computer mal-function, so you'll have to google that one. 

 

And then do some on site searches in the appropriate forums.  You'll see a search box you can use in the upper right corner, when in Symptoms and Self Care, or Tapering for example.

 

Oh so hoping you ARE feeling mellower still, and like you can manage.

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

 

[N2deep]

Thank you so much @manymoretodays, you are a very good person. Outro Health is exactly what I'm looking for, so I don't have to rely on the clueless doctors and pharmacists that got me into this mess in the first place. You can't imagine how much the help you and @hayduke have offered means to me. I'll pay it forward 100x I promise.

[N2deep]

Unfortunately, Outro Health only helps patients taking antidepressants. 

[N2deep]

July 22 - Best day in last 6 days. Day 4 of 2.5mg Olanzapine

 

5:30 am - woke up feeling yucky in the brain but not terrible

8am - ate breakfast, not bad so far

8:30 - start feeling anxiety

Watched Golf all day to take my mind off this situation, this was the first day I could really take attention off this nightmare

1pm - Lunch

5pm - Start getting increasingly anxious

6pm - Took 2.5mg Olanzapine

6-7 - Ate dinner, paced around agitated, feel gross feeling in my brain

7pm - watched TV but not interested. Feel anxious and agitated

9:30 - Went to bed

July 23

5am - Woke up but got back to sleep for an hour

10am - Heightened anxiety and panic attacks, aggression, dread, fear

 

[N2deep]

I read the Reinstatement and Stabilization thread like 10 times and I'm no closer to understanding what to do. I really don't feel confident while in bad WD's to be able to parse information on a forum and then make any kind of medical decision on my own that could have tragic consequences if wrong. As well, that thread seems to be more about reinstatement than whether to updose or hold after having tapered way too quickly, which is my situation. I JUST NEED TO STABILIZE, but maybe my current 2.5 mg dose is too low, or maybe updosing will make symptoms worse. Should updoses be in slight increments or should there just be one?

Again, I was on:

5mg - 4 weeks

2.5mg - 5 days

1.25mg - 3 days

3.75mg - 1 day

2.5mg - 4 days (current dose)

 

I don't have a clue if the WD's will get worse or better, no clue about anything.

Still can't find a single doctor, psychiatrist who could be of help in any channels proposed. I'm willing to travel anywhere, or work with any doctors virtually or whatever. Do American doctors accept patients from outside their state or country?

 

[manymoretodays]

Hi N2deep.  

11 hours ago, N2deep said:

July 22 - Best day in last 6 days. Day 4 of 2.5mg Olanzapine

 

5:30 am - woke up feeling yucky in the brain but not terrible

8am - ate breakfast, not bad so far

8:30 - start feeling anxiety

Watched Golf all day to take my mind off this situation, this was the first day I could really take attention off this nightmare

1pm - Lunch

5pm - Start getting increasingly anxious

6pm - Took 2.5mg Olanzapine

6-7 - Ate dinner, paced around agitated, feel gross feeling in my brain

7pm - watched TV but not interested. Feel anxious and agitated

9:30 - Went to bed

July 23

5am - Woke up but got back to sleep for an hour

10am - Heightened anxiety and panic attacks, aggression, dread, fear

 

Best day in 6 days.  That's good.  And day 4 consistent with 2.5 mg Zyprexa.  If it was me I'd stay put.  Read through the Zyprexa tapering topic too.  The link is above in a previous post to you.  You may be stabilzing a bit.  I know, the reinstating topic is more towards just that.  It does apply to updosing.  Look at the Zyprexa tapering topic, there's a lot there on the half life and getting to steady state.  Also, just get an idea as to how you might make changes in smaller increments than the drug is available in too.  Non drug coping.  Good to find some practices now.  Don't get caught up in thinking years of struggle or tapering now.  Stay in the day, the hour even.  Good Notes!  I don't know what to say on getting a doctor.  It's frustrating and hard.  All you can do is call and see if they'd take your case.  You just need someone to prescribe.  And of course support.  You have not been "stupid" and are doing better than you think.  Absorbing information, coping, and communicating.  L, P, H, and G.  mmt

Edited July 24, 2023 by manymoretodays

[N2deep]

I’ve been taking 2.5mg olanzapine daily since July 19 (23 days). I have been having a range of symptoms over this period most of the worst during the first few days after going down to 1.25 mg.  and back to 2.5, but I still have some very emotional days.

 

Some days I am crying and moaning to release tension but when needed I can immediately stop these actions and talk and act normally for as long as necessary. Some days I have hardly any meltdowns. Other days, a couple hours. Does this sound like withdrawal symptoms? Is one able to flick off the symptoms associated with withdrawal from an antipsychotic at will.  Another consideration is there are so many withdrawal symptoms but I basically only have anxiety.

 

What I can’t figure out is whether these spells of anger and crying are caused by:   

- withdrawal from olanzapine

-anxiety from long covid

-anxiety and fear of being on this poison pill. I hate this drug and hate having to keep taking it.

- anxiety as a side effect from using olanzapine.

 

I have never had the level of anxiety, aggression and emotional meltdowns that I’ve had since being on this drug and some meltdowns started before I started the tapering when I learned of the horrors of this drug. But I felt worse on the second 50% reduction to 1.25mg. I’m just not sure what to do. Do I stay at 2.5mg until the meltdowns, anxiety and aggression disappear even though they may be caused by the antipsychotic drug? (My anxiety/emotional meltdown were greatly increased with long covid but even more so with olanzapine.)

[hayduke]

2.5mg is generally not considered 'therapeutic', i.e. 'antipsychotic'.  It still has some sedating effects and is probably more of a brake than any lesser amount.  I remember being back in touch with my emotions to a much better extent and relating socially.  It's probably a reasonable place to hold and stabilise, though you may find after five weeks on the drug and your rapid cuts that it will take a bit more time to ease up.

 

I would suggest you start addressing your anxiety with non drug techniques.  Are you availing yourself of magnesium and omega-3?  Usually epsom salts baths and fish oil go a long way to easing this kind of discomfort.

 

Other methods include yoga, meditation helps some people, breathing exercises, spending time in nature, and other self care.  Working on the roots of this anxiety might involve finding a therapist who can help you pinpoint and address the root issues.  Crying can really help, it's a natural and stress-easing response to distress.

 

These are all preferable to taking more of this drug, and I would suggest seeing if they help before looking at an updose.  I wouldn't make any cuts yet from what you are saying.

 

We have a topic here for you to explore 

 

 

[N2deep]

Thanks Hayduke, I've given much of that link a read. I'll start taking those supplements. I've been seeing a psychologist.

 

I've been feeling a good bit better for the last week and a half - about as good as I expect I'll feel I reckon. I now believe much of what I was feeling really was withdrawal symptoms. Now, I still feel rotten from long covid but can't help that, too bad it causes nervous system dysfunction and dropping doses of a psychiatric medication will do the same, but hopefully my withdrawals won't be much worse than a normal person might expect.

I'm looking at which tapering method works best for me. I guess it looks like either compounding with a pharmacy or liquifying the pill with water. The pharmacy mentioned either compounding olazapine with water which is good for only 14 days which doesn't seem practical at all. They also can compound with "fixed oil" which they say is good for 180 days. This sounds great. What is the drawback of this approach?  Is this like Ora-Plus or another of the compounding agents. I'm curious why the term 'fixed oil' failed to turn up anything in a search of this site.  Also why do you and other very knowledgeable taperers not use agents like Ora-Plus to help keep drugs such as olanzapine suspended in water? Would this not help to obtain more accurate doses?
 

[hayduke]

6 hours ago, N2deep said:

Thanks Hayduke, I've given much of that link a read. I'll start taking those supplements. I've been seeing a psychologist.

I'm looking at which tapering method works best for me. I guess it looks like either compounding with a pharmacy or liquifying the pill with water. The pharmacy mentioned either compounding olazapine with water which is good for only 14 days which doesn't seem practical at all. They also can compound with "fixed oil" which they say is good for 180 days. This sounds great. What is the drawback of this approach?  Is this like Ora-Plus or another of the compounding agents. I'm curious why the term 'fixed oil' failed to turn up anything in a search of this site.  Also why do you and other very knowledgeable taperers not use agents like Ora-Plus to help keep drugs such as olanzapine suspended in water? Would this not help to obtain more accurate doses?
 

 

Glad to hear things are going well.

 

Most people here make their own suspensions, no need to involve a compounding chemist.  I found olanzapine kept for 7 days in the fridge, and discarded the remainder after that as it seemed to go off.

 

Lots of good info here:  How to make a liquid from tablets or capsules

 

[N2deep]

I'm on the 2.5mg tablet of olanzapine and am looking to transition to liquid. When I went from the 5mg orodispersable tablets to the regular 2.5mg tablets, I didn't know I was just supposed to swallow the 2.5mg tablet and instead kept it in my mouth until it turned to mush. It does this within 20-30 seconds. I think the 2.5mg pill is pretty well dissolved very quickly.

And if the pill is already cut in half, for instance, the regular 2.5mg tablet dissolves immediately in your mouth (and thus, your stomach). 

 

So myself, to transition from tablet to liquid, I've just been putting the tablet in my mouth and letting it dissolve and washing it down with water. This way you don't lose any powder when you cut the pill or in the container one mixes it in.

I feel off today, I've been doing this "melt in my mouth" method for 3 days (today is 4th) but I'm hoping I don't notice any overly rough symptoms, but I can't imagine method of delivery makes any difference either way with this 2.5mg tablet of olanzapine, because I bet it is dissolved very quickly once swallowed.

 

Other than that I still suffer some emotional meltdowns. I'll admit I am scared of tapering. I already have the Long Covid nervous system dysfunction that has given me bad anxiety already, and you know, it's hard thinking about tapering this rough ol' drug while dealing with that, but staying on is not an option. I have to try. 

[UncleLeroy]

Thanks for your comment. 

 

Leroy's reductions happen on Tuesdays and Wd symptoms (even if mild) usually hit by Fridays. Once or twice when symptoms diminished, they still continued for almost eight days or so. This is when we were doing 10% initial cuts. When we reduced cuts to 5% every 2 weeks, symptoms reduced even further and only last for a couple, few days before back to WD normal.  

 

 Sorry I don't have advice about the liquid suspension method as we weigh ours, but making smaller cuts may be something to consider when you are ready to begin tapering again.  Being stable (and functioning as normally as possible) is most important. 

 

We had to come to terms with length of time taking these as well, but as soon as we let that part go and focused on the fact that as long as you are making progress in tapering and/or functioning...or both--->That's what to keep moving towards.  (Even if it means you gotta hold until you're stable---that is still moving towards these goals).

 

Good luck to you! Keep your sails steady, you can do it!

Edited September 23, 2023 by manymoretodays
none, wrong post

[manymoretodays]

Hi N2deep,

Update? 

 

Did you begin to do a suspension, or adding your 2.5 mg pill to water?

Are you beginning to taper again?

I have to say I like the idea of when you do begin to taper, perhaps tapering by 5%, as Uncle Leroy describes above.  It's kind of a modified brassmonkey slide.  And you'll see a link to that in the topic below:

Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases

 

It's better to HOLD your dose the same first when transitioning to liquid.  And give your body time to adjust to the new formula without any change in dose.  I'd say 2 weeks would be good prior to tapering from your new formula.  You'd observe for any changes in symptoms during this time too and see what your response is.

 

You need to calculate each taper based on the previous dose.

So.  Going down by 5% from 2.5 mg can be calculated like this:

2.5 mg(present dose) X 0.95 = 2.375 mg for the next dose, which is the new dose, doing a 5% taper

I would additionally round up to 2.4 mg for ease of measurement too

 

Then next, if you do okay on 2.4 mg, you recalculate another 5% taper from 2.4 mg like so:

2.4 mg X 0.95 = 2.28 mg, or rounding up again it would be 2.3 mg for your next taper dose

 

If you do okay with the first 5% taper, you can proceed to do the next 5% taper in 2 weeks.  That way you have tapered 10% in 4 weeks time.  When you get to 4 weeks, you can, if needed, HOLD for 2 weeks then recalculate and begin again tapering from the 2.3 mg dose.  This give your nervous system plenty of time to adjust and it good, a better direction to go than just tapering by say 0.5 mg each taper.  You can see now how that would exceed a 10% taper.

 

  

21 hours ago, N2deep said:

 I am beginning a taper and wish to remove .5ml from the amount I will be ingesting. If I use an oral syringe to remove the liquid I wish to discard, I think I would be removing too much when the syringe is at the .5ml line as there is also an extra amount in the nub of the syringe meaning I would be taking out more than .5ml. Is this correct? Also, does the amount in the nub of the syringe differ for different sizes of syringes - 1, 3 ml etc. Thanks.

 

 

And good, you are finding your way around.  You don't need to worry about the amount in the nub of the syringe.  When you measure 0.5 mL in the syringe, it's already accounted for.

 

You do need to know how may mg in dose is in your total amount of liquid, as well as what the 0.5 mL(millileter) is in dose mg(milligram), that you discard.

 

So....it does sound like you've gone to liquid with your dosing.  How much water do you dissolve a 2.5 mg tablet of olanzapine in?  I do want to be sure that you are using some math to base your tapering plan on.  And it may be different from what I explained/described above too. 

I'm interested in your method. And I don't wish for you to go too fast.  It's so much better if we can minimize WD symptoms after a taper, and so less is often more.  We don't recommend going faster or by more as if it results in WD symptoms,  they don't always disappear quickly.  It's much better to avoid WD symptoms while tapering as much as possible.

 

You are feeling well enough now to taper once again?  Any symptoms?  Hopefully manageable symptoms.  Are you sleeping okay?

We are around.  Do update here and let us know how you are doing and what you are doing.  Inquiring minds want to know.  I'm hoping it is going well enough.  Your one day drug and symptom log was great too!  You can always do another one, when asking a question around your taper, and share it here.  It was done on July 23rd, and I quoted it and you were HOLDING then and had finally had a good day I believe.  Or good enough.  You don't have to type as much as I tend to do......LOL, just keep us informed and ask questions as needed.

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited September 24, 2023 by manymoretodays

[N2deep]

Hi @manymoretodays, thanks for checking in. And thanks UncleLeroy for your comment as well.

 

I've transitioned to liquid, though I don't think with this specific drug/pill it matters because it breaks up in water in about 20 seconds, so whether you swallow a pill or dissolve it in water it is broken up very quickly. I was first doing this by just allowing the pill to melt in my mouth and washing it down with water (a couple weeks), then I started letting the pill dissolve in water before drinking - for about a week now. 

My intention is, as you say, to start with the 5% reductions every two weeks, and if I tolerate that well, may accelerate it to 5% every 10-12 days. If I could average a 10% drop every 3 weeks, thus halving my dose every 4.5 months, I'd be quite happy with that. But I understand my wants mean little, have to go by symptoms.

 

It took me a while to come up with how I was going to taper, I'm a neurotic perfectionist, and I'm still on the fence about a few things. My current plan is to dissolve the pill in 5ml of water, then add 5ml of Ora-plus/blend (thus making 10ml of suspension vehicle). You can dilute Ora-plus 50% with water. The pills do not seems to break apart with Ora-plus or Ora-plus + water. They only break down quickly in water.

So my first drop would be as you mentioned: "2.5 mg(present dose) X 0.95 = 2.375 mg for the next dose, which is the new dose, doing a 5% taper" ... with 10ml of suspension, the 5% to discard of the suspension equals 0.5ml.

Now, a little issue here is that 10ml of suspension + pill = more than 10ml ... but I guess this goes in the same category of concerns as the amount of liquid left in the nub of the syringe - As Altostrata replied to me: "Don't worry about the amount in the nub or spout, just keep your oral syringe measuring method consistent."

 

Something that leaves me agitated is the fact I have a doctor appt in a week. My doctor has been off work and this is the first time I'll be seeing her since I was put on this hellspawn drug. I don't know what angle to take with her:

 

1. Say I want to stay on the 2.5mg because it helps my sleep  (Long Covid annihilated my sleep, but better now) so I can maintain my supply of pills. At one point this doctor prescribed me quetiapine for sleep, but I didn't take it. So she's clearly a bit of a nut, but that works in my favor in this case.

2. Say I want to transition to compounding pharmacy "fixed oil" suspension to taper.

 

Do other people's doctors just allow them to make their own suspensions with pills? ... I believe mine would want to be in the know and have control of the speed at which I'm going down and know where I'm at at any given time - and thus use a compounding pharmacy.

With that in mind I think I want to just stick with (1.) the pills, because then I maintain control and I can always switch to (2.) if I want, but I don't know if I could go back to (1.) the pills once I've went to compounding pharmacy suspension (because doctor may not let me).

 

This may have been totally confusing to read, I dunno. Either way, I'd like to try to enlighten this doctor with Horowitz' paper on tapering antipsychotics:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8266572/

 

I think I feel as good as I'll ever feel to start. I feel like garbage from Long Covid but can't help that. But I've only been on the drug for 3 1/2 months as long as I go slow and test the waters I think it will work out.

 

 

[UncleLeroy]

21 hours ago, N2deep said:

 

1. Say I want to stay on the 2.5mg because it helps my sleep  (Long Covid annihilated my sleep, but better now) so I can maintain my supply of pills. At one point this doctor prescribed me quetiapine for sleep, but I didn't take it. So she's clearly a bit of a nut, but that works in my favor in this case.

2. Say I want to transition to compounding pharmacy "fixed oil" suspension to taper.

If you are able to do liquid suspensions on your own, and you can keep your prescription as usual, option 1 sounds reasonable.

 

Maybe if you feel out the next appointment you'll be able to decide if option 2 can be a legitimate option.

 

Some of us aren't telling our prescriber at all about tapering. (Leroy has only ever taken 100 mg of one of his meds, but was prescribed 2x the amount -meaning ample supply already built up for long term tapering.)

 

He told his prescriber once about olanzapine making him feel exhausted all the time and prescriber just told him to cut in half. He didn't know at the time we were already tapering, but we have since gotten it down to half, and before his next appointment. Thankfully if prescriber decides to reduce dosage we'll be alright. Feels like 3d chess sometimes!

 

I suppose some Drs are more supportive than others, but we personally didn't want to take the risk on losing prescriptions, nor having to change prescribers/ having gaps, etc.

 

Maybe that says more about me and my control issues 😔, but my husband's literal well-being is at stake, so I feel it's justified.

 

Take care!

[N2deep]

Yeah it does feel like a 3d chess game none of us wanted to play. When you are dealing with people that hold all the power in the relationship, and they at the same time don't have a clue about the damage they could inflict by discontinuing the prescription I think your stance is totally reasonable. I think I'll just say I want to continue with the medication for now, I may even ask for an updose to 3.75mg/day (...to help with sleep) so I can build up a supply. 

[N2deep]

I've been doing OK with my taper so far and do not believe I've had any withdrawal symptoms up to this point. As can be seen in my signature, I started with 2.5% drops every week, then was thinking of dabbling with 5% drops every ten days and see how that goes. I'm thinking I'll wait the full 14 days this time just to make sure I'm not one of those people that gets withdrawal symptoms out of nowhere weeks after and get into trouble. But as far as I can see most people on this drug notice symptoms 3-5 days after a drop.

 

[N2deep]

Everything was going well, I wasn't feeling any withdrawal symptoms for the entire time I was doing 5% cuts every 10 days,which was almost 2 months. Then I proclaimed that things were going well in another thread, and seemingly this jinxed me -  the last number of days I have to admit I've been feeling crummy. Anxiety, SI, impending doom ... all that good stuff. I smashed a mop. It's clearly WD, a lesser version of what I was feeling when I started this thread when I halved my dose, but the symptoms then were pretty extreme. I actually went for another 5% cut on Dec 12, but the next day I updosed by half (so a 2.5% cut, signature does not reflect this), cuz the writing was on the wall at that point, and didn't want it to get way worse. I think I've been feeling like this for about a week now, or maybe a bit more. I really thought I was on easy street (in terms of WD), and this is quite ... brings me down, man.

 

Do people have problems when they get to certain levels, and then things get better? ... I think I've read people say that. I hope it's just a one-off and I can continue unabated. I sure hope it doesn't get harder and harder, that would suck.

[FireflyFyte]

17 hours ago, N2deep said:

Do people have problems when they get to certain levels, and then things get better? ... I think I've read people say that. I hope it's just a one-off and I can continue unabated. I sure hope it doesn't get harder and harder, that would suck.

 

It is fairly common for people to struggle as they get lower in doses. 

 

17 hours ago, N2deep said:

I was doing 5% cuts every 10 days

 

This is a little faster than we recommend so since you are starting to experience withdrawals, I would try smaller cuts and/or holding at each decrease longer.

[N2deep]

Appreciate it, FfF. I've read your thread and I hope your taper continues without a hitch.

[N2deep]

Since my last posts a month and a half ago I've continued my cuts, though at a slower pace ... I go down 0.05 mg at a time, but it equals 10% (of previous dose) per month. But also, since that time, I've continued to feel a bit off. And I have emotional meltdowns every number of days, where I cry and moan for 10-20 minutes or so. I believe I can chalk this up to a number of things. It is wintertime, and I always feel worse during winter. I am also very isolated, because while 95% of people are living like it's 2019, there are two groups of people who aren't - people who have had Long Covid, and the top Long Covid researchers, the latter of which all still mask and are hardcore about it, just like the former. So there's that, and it really sucks, I just want a future intranasal/mucosal vaccine that actually stops transmission, and I'd feel a hell of a lot better. Most people cannot handle this reality (understandably), so they ignore it. <RANT OVER>

 

But ... I think I'm also dealing with some WD, that has stuck around since I was going a bit faster (almost 2 months ago)... I thought since I've slowed down my body would just be able to "catch up", but I'm still having issues. I think I might hold here an extra week and see if I end up feeling better. Again, I can't be certain it's withdrawals, but I really think it must be "neuro-emotions" that send me into a panicky crying puddle of muck ... because about a year ago, before the Long Covid and the drug nightmare, it was almost impossible to make me cry.

 

I also want to add that during this whole time, I've had moments where I have facial muscle twitching/tics. When I dropped from 5mg to 2.5mg I definitely had a cheek twitch, this was the strongest one. It went away. But then also when I was going a bit faster, I had some lip twitching ... and still, I have a bit, and an eyelid twitch, they aren't strong or likely noticeable to anyone else.

I thought this was worth noting. From what I've read this can be chalked up to withdrawal dyskinesia/dopamine supersensitivity, which seems to go away on its own. Is this common on here? I think I've seen others mention having this happen, such as Hayduke and others. I dunno what can be done about it really, or what to do if it gets worse...

[hayduke]

6 hours ago, N2deep said:

Since my last posts a month and a half ago I've continued my cuts, though at a slower pace ... I go down 0.05 mg at a time, but it equals 10% (of previous dose) per month. But also, since that time, I've continued to feel a bit off. And I have emotional meltdowns every number of days, where I cry and moan for 10-20 minutes or so. I believe I can chalk this up to a number of things. It is wintertime, and I always feel worse during winter. I am also very isolated, because while 95% of people are living like it's 2019, there are two groups of people who aren't - people who have had Long Covid, and the top Long Covid researchers, the latter of which all still mask and are hardcore about it, just like the former. So there's that, and it really sucks, I just want a future intranasal/mucosal vaccine that actually stops transmission, and I'd feel a hell of a lot better. Most people cannot handle this reality (understandably), so they ignore it. <RANT OVER>

 

But ... I think I'm also dealing with some WD, that has stuck around since I was going a bit faster (almost 2 months ago)... I thought since I've slowed down my body would just be able to "catch up", but I'm still having issues. I think I might hold here an extra week and see if I end up feeling better. Again, I can't be certain it's withdrawals, but I really think it must be "neuro-emotions" that send me into a panicky crying puddle of muck ... because about a year ago, before the Long Covid and the drug nightmare, it was almost impossible to make me cry.

 

I also want to add that during this whole time, I've had moments where I have facial muscle twitching/tics. When I dropped from 5mg to 2.5mg I definitely had a cheek twitch, this was the strongest one. It went away. But then also when I was going a bit faster, I had some lip twitching ... and still, I have a bit, and an eyelid twitch, they aren't strong or likely noticeable to anyone else.

I thought this was worth noting. From what I've read this can be chalked up to withdrawal dyskinesia/dopamine supersensitivity, which seems to go away on its own. Is this common on here? I think I've seen others mention having this happen, such as Hayduke and others. I dunno what can be done about it really, or what to do if it gets worse...

 

Sounds like you're at a sensible point for a longer hold.  See if the twitches and emotional patches subside.