BoyMom70: Help with Zyprexa taper.

[BoyMom70]

Hi everyone.

 

Im looking for some sage advice. 
I have been on 2.5 mg of Zyprexa for about 2 years. I decided it’s time to get off this poison. It’s caused me to gain 60lbs ..it’s given me high blood pressure and worst of all it makes me feel easily overwhelmed.. like the flood gates have been opened on my anxiety and depression. Previously I was very Even keel , even under pressure. I was a great Multitasker, and really good at troubleshooting and 

problem solving. 
I DO NOT feel like myself anymore , I lack the ability to feel love, joy or happiness of any kind, and forget motivation.

the only things I can feel are anxiety, depression and Dred.

I WANT OFF!

I don’t care how long it takes but this s**t has to go!

  I have taken myself off antipsychotics before but usually right after a hospitalization. Because if I was stable I wanted off the meds ASAP. I did this with resperidone and with paliperidone. I was fine for 4 years… then 5 years before having another “episode “ . For me, an episode is being awake for days on end until psychosis sets it. They can’t fit me into a Schizo affective box because it doesn’t happen often enough or without lack of sleep. 
And they don’t think bipolar quite fit’s either because I’m not “manic” I’m simply awake.. feeling like I have electricity buzzing through me.
I can be awake for days, physically, exhausted, and sleep, just will not find me.
So the solution was ( of course )

Antipsychotics.

Not addressing my sleep deprivation… or trying to find out why my heart would race every time I tried to lay down .. waking me up every time I even attempted to sleep… 

No , they just fed me antipsychotics. 
Because in all of that information all they focused on was the psychosis.

knowing full well that anyone who goes without sleep for long enough will eventually go psychotic. 
But they take advantage of your weakness in these moments. 
Making THIS our only way of fighting back. It’s infuriating and disheartening. 

             ( sorry for the rant ) 
 Anyway, that’s the history. If you’ve experienced something similar I’d love to hear from you.

ok back to Zyprexa. 
so I ordered a very expensive tapering 

strip protocol from the Netherlands and 3 days in I was right back in my danger zone. I was up for 3 days straight before I Reinstated at the original dose of 2.5.  Luckily that did it, and I slept like a rock. 

  Now here’s the tricky part … in those 3 days the dose was only reduced by a total of 4% overall. 
( this was supposed to be a hyperbolic 

micro taper )
And my nervous system could not handle a 4% reduction!!!   Now I’m terrified.

 I know now that I have to go even slower but I’m unsure how to do it now. 

 I’m thinking about a micro taper of 

.001mg  like I’ve seen people do for benzos, only holding for a week instead of trying to reduce every day. 
  Im not crazy about shaving and weighing pills but I’m not really sure what other option there is at this point.
there’s very little information out there on the intricacies of antipsychotic withdrawal. Even the newest information from Dr Horowitz doesn’t address the need for micro tapers..

their smallest increment being 5%

which is obviously to much for me.
 So I have come here to gain some  insight from people with lived experience.  I need REAL help. 
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 
thanks everyone. 

[FireflyFyte]

Hi BoyMom70,

 

Welcome to SA. Please summarize your drug history in your signature by following the instructions at How to Summarize Your Drug History in Your Signature. You may need to be on a computer to complete this.

 

We have information regarding tapering Zyprexa at Tips for tapering off Zyprexa (olanzapine). 

 

19 minutes ago, BoyMom70 said:

Im not crazy about shaving and weighing pills but I’m not really sure what other option there is at this point.

 

In the resource linked above, there is information about making your own liquid solution to taper. 

 

20 minutes ago, BoyMom70 said:

And my nervous system could not handle a 4% reduction!!!   Now I’m terrified.

 I know now that I have to go even slower but I’m unsure how to do it now. 

 

Some people need to make smaller drops and/or hold longer which is why it is important to listen to your body. You may want to look into The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering as a potential option for micro-tapering.

 

Thanks,

 

Firefly

[BoyMom70]

Hi

 

 Does anyone know if you can/should have caffeine during antipsychotic 

withdrawal?  Is it ok to maybe have tea? I feel so low energy, but I’m worried it might be too stimulating making withdrawal worse or at least that’s what I’ve heard..

but I have zero motivation, desire or energy right now. I’ve self medicated with caffeine for so long I don’t know if I can live without it.  Do I really have to? 

any thoughts? 

[BoyMom70]

3 hours ago, FireflyFyte said:

Hi BoyMom70,

 

Welcome to SA. Please summarize your drug history in your signature by following the instructions at How to Summarize Your Drug History in Your Signature. You may need to be on a computer to complete this.

 

We have information regarding tapering Zyprexa at Tips for tapering off Zyprexa (olanzapine). 

 

 

In the resource linked above, there is information about making your own liquid solution to taper. 

 

 

Some people need to make smaller drops and/or hold longer which is why it is important to listen to your body. You may want to look into The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering as a potential option for micro-tapering.

 

Thanks,

 

Firefly

Thank you for all the great information 

Firefly. I truly appreciate your 

help. 

[FireflyFyte]

16 hours ago, BoyMom70 said:

Does anyone know if you can/should have caffeine during antipsychotic 

withdrawal?  Is it ok to maybe have tea?

 

Generally, we recommend avoiding or at least limiting caffeine during withdrawal but you may want to reduce slowly to avoid suffering withdrawals from it.

[BoyMom70]

1 hour ago, FireflyFyte said:

 

Generally, we recommend avoiding or at least limiting caffeine during withdrawal but you may want to reduce slowly to avoid suffering withdrawals from it.

I quit about 10 days ago . The withdrawal is already mostly over but I’m so tired and low energy. I also have Hashimotos thyroid disease so my energy levels have tanked from the absence of caffeine. I haven’t had coffee in years,I always drank tea. But like 3-4 cups a day. I’m thinking of getting decaf tea because I know it still has a small amount of caffeine in it maybe it will help with my energy and motivation a little bit. Because right now I’m tapped out. 

[FireflyFyte]

56 minutes ago, BoyMom70 said:

I’m thinking of getting decaf tea because I know it still has a small amount of caffeine in it maybe it will help with my energy and motivation a little bit. Because right now I’m tapped out. 

 

You can try introducing decaf tea but I wouldn't make any other changes while trying so you can see how your body reacts without having to worry about other factors.

[BoyMom70]

1 hour ago, FireflyFyte said:

 

You can try introducing decaf tea but I wouldn't make any other changes while trying so you can see how your body reacts without having to worry about other factors.

I agree. I’m really only interested in decaf as a sort of “half measure” 

because I’m so lethargic. I started reducing a few days ago at .001mg

because of my sensitivity. I’m going to see how the tiny bit of caffeine sits with the micro reduction and then tweak it accordingly. If the caffeine becomes an obstacle then I’ll drop it off again slowly. Maybe I’ll be getting just enough dopamine to make it unnecessary soon. 
 Thank you again for your input

Firefly. Your help is priceless. 
 

[BoyMom70]

I’m currently trying to taper off Zypexa 2.5 and I’m having a really hard time.

I tried to taper by 4% and ended up awake for 3 days scared out of my mind. So I had to go back to my original dose of 2.5.  I was Discouraged, but not deterred. 
 I started over again by taking .001mg 

off my tpw and will try to do this every week.. possibly holding for 2 weeks after 4 reductions like the brass monkey method. It’s still a work in progress and I’m trying to let my body guide me. 
 Anyway.. I’m looking for success stories.. I need some positive input right now because I’m struggling.

 If you have come off an antipsychotic 

And are now on the other side of it I would love to hear your story. 
I’m also open to suggestions as to the taper.

 

thanks everyone. 

[Emonda]

Hi BoyMom70,

I've just moved your new post back to your own thread.

 

Please post all updates / questions regarding yourself here.

 

Many thanks

[BurntButterscotch]

@BoyMom70

im currently in the same boat as you are. However I don’t believe I ever suffered actual psychosis but was probably right in the edge. I suddenly stopped sleeping and was up for almost 3 weeks with maybe 8 hours total sleep. I was prescribed 10mg of Zyprexa but cut down to 2.5 within a week of being home. I’ve been trying to taper off also but apparently it was too big a dose and I also lost sleep and was scared. I’m hoping we can get through this. 

[N2deep]

There have been a number of people on here who successfully got off olanzapine, and a number who are currently tapering it, such as myself. Have you looked into what causes these times where you just stop sleeping (as in, before the olanzapine)? Maybe it's possible some kind of therapy might help with that or something.

Once I got down to my current dose my sleep just went from fine to not good out of nowhere, but I think I tapered too fast, it seems to be coming back slowly as I hold.

I don't have any answers for you but just wanted to say hi and welcome from a fellow AP taperer.

[BoyMom70]

22 hours ago, BurntButterscotch said:

@BoyMom70

im currently in the same boat as you are. However I don’t believe I ever suffered actual psychosis but was probably right in the edge. I suddenly stopped sleeping and was up for almost 3 weeks with maybe 8 hours total sleep. I was prescribed 10mg of Zyprexa but cut down to 2.5 within a week of being home. I’ve been trying to taper off also but apparently it was too big a dose and I also lost sleep and was scared. I’m hoping we can get through this. 

I’m so happy to hear from you. 
I also hope that we both get through this. I’m trying to reduce now by mgs of my total pill weight.. so my pill weighs between .125-.126 so I took it down to .124 for roughly a week now. 
Im sleeping like 5 hours but I’m waking up with anxiety ( about everything )

and some depression. I also have a weird headache, like a pressure. But I’m trying to press on. It may take me like 2 1/2 years at this pace but I am taking it day by day and I suppose I will tweak it as I figure out my tolerance. I’m also looking into the brass monkey slide method but I’m having a hard time converting from pill weight to percentages.

( I think it’s like 2% or a little less )

This drug has made me stupid.. but I’m trying my best just like you.

I am here for you, you can talk to me. I understand. 
keep in touch, please let me know how you are progressing.  

[BoyMom70]

1 minute ago, BoyMom70 said:

I’m so happy to hear from you. 
I also hope that we both get through this. I’m trying to reduce now by mgs of my total pill weight.. so my pill weighs between .125-.126 so I took it down to .124 for roughly a week now. 
Im sleeping like 5 hours but I’m waking up with anxiety ( about everything )

and some depression. I also have a weird headache, like a pressure. But I’m trying to press on. It may take me like 2 1/2 years at this pace but I am taking it day by day and I suppose I will tweak it as I figure out my tolerance. I’m also looking into the brass monkey slide method but I’m having a hard time converting from pill weight to percentages.

( I think it’s like 2% or a little less )

This drug has made me stupid.. but I’m trying my best just like you.

I am here for you, you can talk to me. I understand. 
keep in touch, please let me know how you are progressing.  

Be careful moving forward, we are most vulnerable at the lowest doses where the hyperbolic curve is the steepest. It’s so important to go as slow as necessary when in the lowest doses. I’m going to send you an article that helped me understand things a lot better .

https://psychscenehub.com/psychinsights/antipsychotic-withdrawal-syndrome-tapering/#google_vignette

[BurntButterscotch]

56 minutes ago, BoyMom70 said:

Be careful moving forward, we are most vulnerable at the lowest doses where the hyperbolic curve is the steepest. It’s so important to go as slow as necessary when in the lowest doses. I’m going to send you an article that helped me understand things a lot better .

https://psychscenehub.com/psychinsights/antipsychotic-withdrawal-syndrome-tapering/#google_vignette

Thank you for the article! That actually scares me a lot since i am terrified of going into psychosis. I have only been on Olanzapine for 5 weeks and seeing that the longer you’re in it the more at risk you are. This makes me fear for a long taper. 

[FireflyFyte]

On 3/6/2024 at 12:33 PM, BoyMom70 said:

Anyway.. I’m looking for success stories.. I need some positive input right now because I’m struggling.

 If you have come off an antipsychotic 

And are now on the other side of it I would love to hear your story. 

 

I believe we have a thread in our Success Stories section on recovery from anti-psychotics.

[BoyMom70]

6 minutes ago, BurntButterscotch said:

Thank you for the article! That actually scares me a lot since i am terrified of going into psychosis. I have only been on Olanzapine for 5 weeks and seeing that the longer you’re in it the more at risk you are. This makes me fear for a long taper. 

I’m not sure what dose you tried to reduce by but I think you should try the brass monkey slide taper. You haven’t been on it that long , I would think at this point you should be able to taper a bit faster before your dopamine receptors up regulate even more. I’m not a medical professional but you should be able to taper faster than someone like me. But I hear it all depends on genetics and how quickly your body chooses to up regulate your dopamine receptors. If you’re not sleeping or eating you’re in the danger zone in my opinion. Sleep Is of the upmost importance. Regardless of how long you’ve been on it. Your body is always going to let you know if you are going too fast. You have to go at a speed where you are still getting sleep and your symptoms are not unbearable. It’s important not to put yourself in a position where you’re

re-hospitalized and re-medicated. 
then you may be tapering an Even higher dose.  I say be as conservative as possible until you learn your threshold. 😉

[BurntButterscotch]

Thanks for the reminder @BoyMom70  I’m scared I won’t have anyone supporting me in a long taper as my partner is already upset over the situation. I feel pretty upset that I might have to put them through that long of ups and downs and he most likely won’t stay through it. 
 

I did find a taper sheet someone else on here created that might be helpful for you. 

[BoyMom70]

21 minutes ago, BurntButterscotch said:

Thanks for the reminder @BoyMom70  I’m scared I won’t have anyone supporting me in a long taper as my partner is already upset over the situation. I feel pretty upset that I might have to put them through that long of ups and downs and he most likely won’t stay through it. 
 

I did find a taper sheet someone else on here created that might be helpful for you. 

If they don’t stick around they don’t deserve you. My husband has been there through everything.. and he’s still here. Maybe He’ll surprise you. 

 If not , you can talk to me. I will help however I can. 
 

post the sheet here. I’d like to see it. 

[BoyMom70]

5 minutes ago, BoyMom70 said:

If they don’t stick around they don’t deserve you. My husband has been there through everything.. and he’s still here. Maybe He’ll surprise you. 

 If not , you can talk to me. I will help however I can. 
 

post the sheet here. I’d like to see it. 

Here’s the brass monkey taper calculator thingy.. it adjustable. 
I like the idea .. but send yours, I wanna see it. 
https://reversepsychiatry.org/

[BurntButterscotch]

It’s too big to load @BoyMom70  I’ll try to tag you. 

[BoyMom70]

14 hours ago, Venkat said:

Hi @BoyMom70 i have been tapering below 1mg by making cuts in ml. I still haven't calculated in mgs. Will be planning calculations in mgs with my wife's help this weekend. 

 

Water titration method had worked well for hayduke and is working for me as well.

 

I too had the same doubts about olanzapine dissolving in water and the dose obtained from it. It forms a suspension in water not a solution which would be preferred. But I tried this method and this is working reasonably well.

 

🙏

 

 

 

Hi Venkat

 

 So how exactly are you doing it? 
the water titration.. ? 
Do you have that calculation sheet that burntbutterscotch posted. 
Im so bad at math. I need a guide. 
 I have just been weighing pills and taking it down by a mg weekly. I figured if it was working for people on benzos it might be slow enough for me. I do worry about it not being exact 

enough though… that’s why I’m asking about water titration.  
My fear of being bad at math makes every method daunting. 
Im open to any suggestions. 
thanks for answering. 

[hayduke]

6 hours ago, BoyMom70 said:

Hi Venkat

 

 So how exactly are you doing it? 
the water titration.. ? 
Do you have that calculation sheet that burntbutterscotch posted. 
Im so bad at math. I need a guide. 
 I have just been weighing pills and taking it down by a mg weekly. I figured if it was working for people on benzos it might be slow enough for me. I do worry about it not being exact 

enough though… that’s why I’m asking about water titration.  
My fear of being bad at math makes every method daunting. 
Im open to any suggestions. 
thanks for answering. 

@BoyMom70, there is a great deal of information on liquid suspensions here.  If you take a few simple steps as outlined in this thread, you will get a good even distribution in your mixture.  Done properly, and it's not hard, the method works very well.

Edited March 19 by hayduke

[Venkat]

10 hours ago, BoyMom70 said:

Hi Venkat

 

 So how exactly are you doing it? 
the water titration.. ? 
Do you have that calculation sheet that burntbutterscotch posted. 
Im so bad at math. I need a guide. 
 I have just been weighing pills and taking it down by a mg weekly. I figured if it was working for people on benzos it might be slow enough for me. I do worry about it not being exact 

enough though… that’s why I’m asking about water titration.  
My fear of being bad at math makes every method daunting. 
Im open to any suggestions. 
thanks for answering. 

boymom ,  I tried posting the work sheet on your thread. It was not possible as is was exceeding the permissible limits.

 

It is there on my thread. There is also a video on my thread explaining the procedure for preparing olanzapine suspension with water.

 

Hope this helps. Take care.

[N2deep]

I make my liquid a little differently. I first drop my 2.5mg sandoz olanzapine pill into 5ml of water, because it breaks apart very quickly in JUST WATER ... then I add 5ml of Ora-Plus, and stir it up, making a suspension of 10ml (you can dilute ora-plus with 50% water) ... This makes an effective suspension so you don't have to worry about whether the dose is right when doing it just with water. I know many people are successfully doing it with water alone, but this is how I chose to do it. Just throwing it out there as a possibility.

 

5ml water + 5ml Ora-Plus = 10ml suspension

 

Edit: I see another user "herewego" feels one should use 4ml of water + 6ml of Ora-Plus ... that may be a good idea, I may switch to doing that.

[BoyMom70]

On 3/20/2024 at 12:59 PM, N2deep said:

I make my liquid a little differently. I first drop my 2.5mg sandoz olanzapine pill into 5ml of water, because it breaks apart very quickly in JUST WATER ... then I add 5ml of Ora-Plus, and stir it up, making a suspension of 10ml (you can dilute ora-plus with 50% water) ... This makes an effective suspension so you don't have to worry about whether the dose is right when doing it just with water. I know many people are successfully doing it with water alone, but this is how I chose to do it. Just throwing it out there as a possibility.

 

5ml water + 5ml Ora-Plus = 10ml suspension

 

Edit: I see another user "herewego" feels one should use 4ml of water + 6ml of Ora-Plus ... that may be a good idea, I may switch to doing that.

Hey @N2deep

 I read your initial thread. It seems you have really been through it hu? 
I can relate wholeheartedly, as I’m sure many of us can. This whole process sucks. The people who put you on these drugs offer zero help in getting off them. Most of them don’t even know how. HERE is where we learn. From our peers… and people who have been down this road. 
 The people here are unbelievable. 
they can talk you off the ledge when you can’t think straight and keep you out of the hospital when you feel as if you can’t figure things out. 
 I was just curious how your taper is going now. What are you down to? 
 Are you having trouble at the lower doses due to the hyperbolic curve?  I’m just starting a painfully slow taper down from 2.5 , but I tried to jump off like you did and had very similar results.. Akathisia, crying for hours, anxiety.. the S word… 

 I decided that I’ll go as slow as I have to in order to never go through that hell again.  
 You seem like you’re doing so much better now, I just want to know your secret.  
😉

[N2deep]

My taper schedule so far is in my signature. So as can be seen I had to updose to 1.55mg after I basically crashed in early/mid February. I haven't made a drop since Jan 25. After a long hold I've very recently been feeling much better than I was. But something that is freaking me out is twitching that still hasn't gone away totally after that long hold. Despite this concerning symptom, I'm thinking I'm going to continue back down to 1.50mg sometime soon. If it wasn't for this place I'd be totally lost. Stuck on this drug forever. I have only been on for 9 months and even so, I'm not sure I can tolerate a 10% per month (even split up) drop, but I'm hopeful. That said, I've got from 5mg to 1.55mg so still a win I guess - though it sure wasn't painless.

The only hard-won secret I know of is really listen to your body, and hold when you aren't absolutely sure. Those symptoms you mentioned in your last post, I get mini versions of those, that's what I have to look out for. Cuts can stack up and blast you out of nowhere, or at least, that's what seemed to happen to me. If I'd just done some holds here and there I'd be ahead of where I am, and I wouldn't have suffered so much and wouldn't be scared of the process. Slow is faster.

[BoyMom70]

20 hours ago, N2deep said:

My taper schedule so far is in my signature. So as can be seen I had to updose to 1.55mg after I basically crashed in early/mid February. I haven't made a drop since Jan 25. After a long hold I've very recently been feeling much better than I was. But something that is freaking me out is twitching that still hasn't gone away totally after that long hold. Despite this concerning symptom, I'm thinking I'm going to continue back down to 1.50mg sometime soon. If it wasn't for this place I'd be totally lost. Stuck on this drug forever. I have only been on for 9 months and even so, I'm not sure I can tolerate a 10% per month (even split up) drop, but I'm hopeful. That said, I've got from 5mg to 1.55mg so still a win I guess - though it sure wasn't painless.

The only hard-won secret I know of is really listen to your body, and hold when you aren't absolutely sure. Those symptoms you mentioned in your last post, I get mini versions of those, that's what I have to look out for. Cuts can stack up and blast you out of nowhere, or at least, that's what seemed to happen to me. If I'd just done some holds here and there I'd be ahead of where I am, and I wouldn't have suffered so much and wouldn't be scared of the process. Slow is faster.

 I know it feels like you had to learn the hard way but we all do that in a way. We have no help and very little to go on. So we do the best we can until we find places like this. I spent a lot of money on tapering strips from the Netherlands only to find out that it was way too fast for me… I was awake for 3 days scared out of my mind before I reinstated… and that was from a 4% reduction over 3 days. 
what it showed me was that my nervous system was way to sensitive for that kind of drop so I waited 2 weeks and started over. I’m weighing my pills and going a mg at a time per week and I’m going to hold every 4 reductions. 
my pills weigh roughly 126mg. I’m down to 123mg. At 122 I will hold for 3 weeks. I’m kind of combining a benzo taper with the brass monkey slide method. I’m being very conservative because I’m terrified of the withdrawal symptoms. Or worse, being

re hospitalized. You will always be told it’s a relapse and be re medicated. They don’t acknowledge withdrawal syndrome. Then you are back at square one.  
 But I see you are much more grounded now. I think we are all a bit overzealous in the beginning. We think

”I’m different “ I can go faster, or I don’t want to wait months, I’m going to push a little harder. But this process will ground you quickly. Like you mentioned those cuts can stack up on you so you have to be careful. 
I agree with the listen to your body approach. Go as slow as you need to in order to get off safely.Remember the hyperbolic curve is steepest at the lower doses so this is where it get really tricky to navigate. I will send you the link to what I read. It helped a lot with my understanding of what was going on in my brain.

 I wish you love and success. I’m here if you need support. 
https://psychscenehub.com/psychinsights/antipsychotic-withdrawal-syndrome-tapering/#google_vignette