Iggy131313 Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 well done Muddles...I find if im on the edge and it can go one way or the other, outings can help, other times it terrible, but worth a try.... im so proud of you, congratulations on today, i know how that feels, xxxxxx damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
LoveandLight Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Just saw you talking about how many times one goes on and off the drug impacting healing ..I've been on and off for 14 yrs..often skipping days, taking alternate days..then 2 really bad CT's and then this v fast huge cut taper..long road ahead? 2000 - sertraline for job anxiety low confidence (17 years old) ..which turned the next 16 years into nightmare! On/off sertraline severe withdrawals every time. 2014 - felt better as reduced dose of sertraline no more inner restlessness. Doctor rushed off again. Hit severe withdrawal. Lost the little I had in life. Couldn't get stable again on 12.5mg. Was switched to prozac. Had severe reaction to prozac..came off in November 2015 at 6mg as felt more confused and damaged on it..Even more withdrawal ..rage, depression, dyphoria, near constant suicidal ideation, self harm impulses, doom, concrete block in head, unable to do much of anything with this feeling in head..went back on 6mg of sertraline to see if would alleviate anything. It didn't..reduced from December to June 2016 came off at 2.5mg sertraline as was hospitalised for the severe rage, suicidal impulses, and put on 50mg lofepramine which in 2nd week reduced all symptoms but gave insomnia which still have..psych stopped lofepramine cold turkey..no increased withdrawal symptoms new symptoms from lofepramine except persistant insomnia which has as side effect. Taking Ativan for 8 months for the severe rage self harm impulses 1-3 times a week (mostly 2 times a week) at .5mg. Two months (I'm unsure exactly when the interdose started to happen) ago interdose withdrawal seemed to happen..2 days I think after the Ativan. Nightmare that could have been avoided! Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted April 14, 2015 Administrator Share Posted April 14, 2015 Tilly and others: There are many people on this site who would welcome your intelligent, compassionate support. Iggy is not one of them. Iggy has been a member of this site and others for many years. I have never known her to take any advice, no matter how well-meaning. Arguing with Iggy in her topic serves no purpose. Your participation is valuable to our community; it may be better served elsewhere. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Iggy131313 Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 fair comment Alto, I hope Tilly makes a good difference to someone who will apriciate that kind of advice...its not right for me... Im come to the conclusion that there must be some immediate receptor upregulation of some kind after a sudden drop, even though the main upregulation doesnt kick in until many months later.......becasue all my symptoms are indicative of too much serotonin..... also the PERFECT day I had on saturday after having a bloomin whitey on the friday was caused by that whitey..I imagine due to the 5ht1a antagonism...this cements for me the reasoning that i need MUCH less serotonin to the brain... trouble is most things will work on a negative feedback loop, so to TREAT the symptoms its about reducing serotonin in an inconsistant way, so as to not casue the feedback loop and brain ajustments, THATS the main key woke today with the terror etc, had half a glass of wine last night which is pointless, it does nothing for me at the time or after...so its fruitless, but ive never liked drinking damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
btdt Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Iggy I one read there are 108 known neurotransmitters... they don't all have names yet. The ones that have names...obviously I did not get his info from wiki which says. " Neurotransmitters play a major role in shaping everyday life and functions. Their exact numbers are unknown but more than 100 chemical messengers have been identified.[2]" most of my sources now have been deleted in other sites as they shut down... many of those links went 404 long ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitter#List_of_neurotransmitters.2C_peptides.2C_and_gasotransmitters I have also read that changing one affects many... it is very complex and not understood we have been an experiment in my opinion. This site is likely where they watch to see how the lab rats are doing. It is not as simple as we would hope... I wish it were. I am not trying to suggest you stop trying I do it myself and have for years... I keep taking a poke at this and that when my brain works trying to figure it out I wish you more success than I had. I just hope that along the way you heal too... wishing you peace. WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
Iggy131313 Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 I know that btdt, in one way feeling like i understand gives me an element of control which can calm me and give me hope..... and i know that things that decrease serotonin to the brain and/or increase dopamine, take my symtpoms away..... damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
Iggy131313 Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Hmmm, yu learn smething new every day, I have always thught that I face a massive prblem because the ''treatment'' t ver sensitised 5ht2a receptrs would be an antagonist, however, use of an antagnist leads to upregulatin....so dopamine receptors are upregulated when dopamine blockers are used etc etc the 5ht2 system is different, both agnists AND antagonists cause DOWNREGULATION.....this is most interesting.... now one would think that remeron or mirtazapine would be a good choice, but we all know its nt (right muddles?) and I wndered why it hasnt helped anyone with akathisia...my thinking is becasue it works on dopamine as an antagonist at D2, D3, and one other, I cant remember which...also the people on the PSSD forum have fund it does nothing t help them....and yet other 5ht1 agonists do........hmmmmmmmmmm I have contacted Dr Healy wanting to open talks on me trying a full 5ht2a antagonist...something like ritanserin....i know it culd be a mistake, but its something I would be open t at least talking about and researching, as ritanserin is basically only a 5ht2a antagonist and has no direct dopamine antagonist properties, im nt sure abut its effect on 5ht1a.....im only just starting to look at it as a possibility..... so today....Ive still had my son, Ive managed t have him from saturday until tday (wednesday) the akathisia was quite strong last night, especially after i ate, but i ate so the nausea was gne, i dont have it today either...i have had terror, akathisia, overwhelm, panic, weird shaking, some myoclonic jerking and twitching....and ooverheating to my face and head but i have coped.....played xboox with my son after a day outside with him yesterday im due to come on any day now (really needs to hurry up, if im pregnant i will go into hell) and that will make things worse but im hoping to see improvements over the nest few weeks limiting my weed use to one day on and 2 off......i was slipping into using it daily again, and last time i did that it caused upregulation to 5ht2a and i was sooo bad....i read another study showing that chronic use leads to upregulation of 5ht2a and it reminded me to be careful..... so todays a day on, although i just had 2 puffs to stave off the worst of the akathisia....going to the pool hall tonight and hoping the aka doesnt get too bad damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
Iggy131313 Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 oh, muddles, if you ever want to call me, thats ok by the way xxx damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted April 15, 2015 Administrator Share Posted April 15, 2015 Folks, please note: Iggy's theories about how the nervous system operates and the best treatment for withdrawal are entirely her own, and in some instances run contrary to the advice we give on this site. The staff does not endorse them. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
paxilslave Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 As far as I have read this Tilly was spot on and is the one who was attacked. People here would genuinely like to help Iggy but she wants no help or advice. I really don't know what what she is doing here. This is a drug withdrawal site and she is doing illegal drugs (weed). I don't understand this at all. Link to comment
btdt Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 She has people here who are interested in her who care about her. Weed is legal in some parts of the USA so some people must be using it. I am not an advocate but if I ever did find out that the legal version would help me I would be the first one in line to get some. There is an ignore button if you don't want to read her posts you can apply it to her thread this is the only place she writes on this site. She may need support and some of us want to be here if and when that happen. A lot of people turn to illegal drugs and booze to treat the side effects of legal drugs I am sure some keep using their self treating drug even when they are in withdrawal. Not everyone feels the same way you do which shows in the amount of people who drop by her thread... lots don't agree with her some of use give her trouble for sure but she is till willing to be here and if it helps her what is the big deal... none that I can see. I wish you peace and hope your journey is an easy one. WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
paxilslave Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I think it is a really bad idea to smoke weed and have a few drinks while you are caring for a minor. That is just my opinion and how can you heal your brain if you keep altering it with these substances? Just a question that's all. I am not trying to argue with anyone. Link to comment
Iggy131313 Posted April 17, 2015 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 thanks btdt, I respect what everyone has to say...and I put myself out there and say those things, I expect some response and not all of it to be positive, I am very grateful to you btdt and other people who have offered me kindness and support....perhaps I dont deserve it, perhaps thats irrelevant, people are free to say what they wish.... I do feel that anyone in my position to find relief after 3 years of non functional hell would do the same if they knew it wouold help, I know I am not a danger to my son, I dont get drunk when Im in charge of him, and I dont get stoned, I use a small amount of caannabis at times, but it never makes me wasted, i dont have that much, and when I have and it stops the symptoms, I take him to the park, play xbox with him....that....as opposed to the alternative which is crying and wailing in bed while he is with someone else...or trying to function with severe akathisia and aggitation.....which makes me a horrible person, to have aggitation to those degrees is not condusive to playing with a 6 year old I want to echo what Alto has said about my theorys and I also want to make it clear that my theorys are my own, and are not fact...however....my recent research has led me to a new place completely, to a place which I belive could lead to a cure....thats my belief....Im currently looking at writing a paper on my research and findings and the way I belive a treatent could be directed, I use the model of tardive dyskinesia, which I belive is the closest thing we have to compare to the tardive akathisia and other associaited symptoms that come from stopping an ssri...... those who are interested can read it those who are not may leave it, Im not looking for validation on my theorys, although id welcome devils advocate responses as thats how things are developed....but I also belive that from everything I have learned over the past 3 years that the direction im taking is correct and that complete resolution is possible...... today I have a ''hangover'' therefore I have zero symtpoms, I am functioning completely normally, I could go to work right now, Im cleaning the house with no sensations, no distractions, Ive just taken my son to the park and later Im taking him to football practice.....I am a normal person with all the natural feelings that ome with it.......and of course, it feels permenant, its not, once the serotonin is restored to normal levels i will re enter hell, but today I have a day off, and im sure going to make the most of it I hope people realise im not advocating anything I do to mitigate my symptoms, but I can also relate exactly WHY they are helping me...ill explain the weed.... My theory as most people know is that ''SSRI tardive onset syndrome'' is caused when 5ht2a receptors (in my case, each ssri acts on different receptors) upregulate...this usually takes an average of 5 months....many people find that their ''withdrawal'' starts or gets FAR worse around this time...Ive seen it time and time again.......so now we are left with supersensitised 5ht2a receptors.......another mechanism is the desensitisation of 5ht1a autoreceptors...which I dont belive is an issue for me, and relates more to anhedonia and pssd type symptoms.... so if a person at 5/6 months now has upregulated 5ht2a receptors, even though the amounts of serotonin in the brain may be at a normal level, we have a huge increase in sensitivity of 5ht2a (be that either as a result of increased NUMBER of 5ht2a receptors, or becasue the receptors themselves are sensitised) and therefore the normal amount of serotonin has a massive impact....that is what is seen in tardive dyskinesia but using a different receptor type..the dopamine system. so.....why does weed help me?....and then why does it turn on me if I use it chronically??? so, it helps in the short term becasue its 5 ht1a agonist, it increases serotonin to the brain stem...which in turn sygnols that brain that there is TOO MUCH serotonin, and as a result DECREASES the amount of serotonin the rest of the brain....therefore stops my symtpoms......there is now less serotonin activating the post synaptic serotonin receptors....(this is also the reason cannabis is an anti emetic, as it decreases serotonin hitting 5ht3 receptors) there is no longer the huge inhibition of dopamine, and I am a normal person http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16258853 HOWEVER...chronic use of cannabis actually UPREGULATES 5HT2A receptors, this is why last year after using cannabis everyday for 6 weeks (during which time I was much improved) I had a sudden and sever worstening......I upregulated 5ht2a and every symptom including 24/7 akathisia kickied in, and it kicked in HARD.... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3552103/ both of these reponses to weed fit in with my theory and fit perfectly......... it helps me a great deal to speculate about these things, so I am working on my paper and have a few drs and psychiatrists who are willing and able to read it and give me some feedback......watch this space...in my opinion, what I have in mind would be a total resolution of all symptoms, including the capability to handle and not react to medications etc...thats what I think, its not the truth, its not a fact...but it IS what I think damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
Meimeiquest Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Have you ever read any of William Walsh's work? My understanding of his theories is incomplete, but in a nutshell, he would say serious brain/mental issues are genetic, but it's not the genes that really cause the problem, it's the body's ability to manage its genome and cover for the inefficiencies. Which is why you see family tendencies without linear transmission. Some something in your brain is clearly inefficient in recovering from your drug exposure/withdrawal. Book is Nutrient Power, videos at mensahmedical.com probably explain it best. But the more I study, the more I see overlapping complexities from different subsystems, which are really impossible for us to see as a whole. You look at neurotransmitters, but then there are circuits and over/underactivation of various areas, genetically determined receptor densities, nutritional deficiencies and excesses. Each gene codes for one protein or enzyme (also a protein). That's it, yet it builds and maintains a whole body. There is an activation strip that governs how active a gene is, which has a huge impact. There is a Buddhist or Hindu story about four blindfolded men describing an elephant, all such different descriptions as one has the ear, one the trunk, one the tail, etc. We are all blindfolded right now. It's a simple "elephant" but we can't see the whole today. A full analysis has to include Amy Yasko's work. She is working hard on autism, which is kind of the final frontier. I read of it at www.nancymullanmd.com. 1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms. Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12 Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13 Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15 11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble) 9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol 7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol 56 years old Link to comment
Iggy131313 Posted April 17, 2015 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 Hi hon, oh yes Im familiar with all that, i have spoken with yasco and had full egentic profiles done..... I belive that anyone who went on and off ssris enough time will get withdrawal syndrome, regaurdless of genetics, but of course natural receptor densitiy is huge, and deffo a factor..... thanks so much for visiting me on my thread hon xx damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
btdt Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Several receptors--including 5-HT1A--aren't especially malleable, moreover, and take longer to sprout anew after drug treatment ends, delaying the patient's return to neuronalhealth. Indeed, some studies I consulted found that in certain patients those receptors fail to grow back at all, in effect leaving the patients worse off than before. (See for instance "Dissociation of the Plasticity of 5-HT1A Sites and 5-HT Transporter Sites(link is external)" in Paxil Research Studies 19.3 [1994], 311-15.) https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/side-effects/201107/antidepressant-withdrawal-syndrome not sure may be useful to you WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus WiggleIt Posted April 18, 2015 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted April 18, 2015 Following this thread. Iggy, you've gone deeper into the neuro research than I have as far as learning the behaviors of specific neurotransmitters. However, I've been self-teaching also and I've come to a conclusion that you can't mess with one neurotransmitter without causing a domino effect on the others. That's why I feel the best bet is not to keep messing with the neurotransmitters at all. Any artificial neurotransmitters balancing will be short-term effects that the body has no way of healthily sustaining that on its own. I was screwed over by ill-advised rapid taper-cold turkeys led by stupid doctors. I feel I will never get better. I'm off everything now and will stay off everything for the rest of my life. I smoke nothing and do not drink. I've also has adverse reaction to ibuprofen. You've read my story and you know how bad off I am, plus an acute wave hit me tonight, the severity of which I haven't felt in a while, maybe 3-4 weeks. I started reading your thread back from the July 2013 date and I am so bummed that you are not leaps and bounds better. I don't want to jump in and agree or disagree with anybody's theories, but I am following this thread with interest. *I'm not a doctor and don't give medical advice, just personal experience **Off all meds since Nov. 2014. Mentally & emotionally recovered; physically not-Dual cold turkeys off TCA & Ativan in Oct 2014. Prescribed from 2011-2014 -All meds were Rxed off-label for an autoimmune illness. It was a MISDIAGNOSIS, but I did not find out until AFTER meds caused damage. All med tapers/cold turkeys directed by doctors -Nortriptyline May 2012 - Dec 2013. Cold turkey off nortrip & cold switched to desipramine -Desipramine Jan 2014 - Oct. 29, 2014 (rapid taper/cold turkey) -Lorazepam 1 mg per night during 2011 -Lorazepam 1 mg per month in 2012 (or less) -Lorazepam on & off, Dec 2013 through Aug 2014. Didn't exceed 3x a week -Lorazepam again in Oct. 2014 to help get off of desipramine. Last dose lzpam was 1 mg, Nov. 2, 2014. Immediate paradoxical reactions to benzos after stopping TCAs -First muscle/dystonia side effects started on nortriptyline, but docs too stupid to figure it out. On desipramine, muscle tremors & rigidity worsened -Two weeks after I got off all meds, I developed full-blown TD. Tardive dystonia, dyskinesia, myoclonic jerks ALL over body, ribcage wiggles, facial tics, twitching tongue & fingers, tremors/twitches of arms, legs, cognitive impairment, throat muscles semi-paralyzed & unable to swallow solid food, brain zaps, ears ring, dizzy, everything looks too far away, insomnia, numbness & electric shocks everywhere when I try to fall asleep, jerk awake from sleep with big, gasping breaths, wake with terrors & tremors, severely depressed. NO HISTORY OF DEPRESSION, EVER. Meds CREATED it. -Month 7: hair falling out; no vision improvement; still tardive dystonia; facial & tongue tics returned -Month 8: back to acute, incl. Grand Mal seizure-like episodes. New mental torment, PGAD, worse insomnia -Month 9: tardive dystonia worse, dyskinesia returned. Unable to breathe well due to dystonia in stomach, chest, throat -Month 13: Back to acute, brain zaps back, developed eczema & stomach problems. Left leg no longer works right due to dystonia, meaning both legs now damaged -7 years off: Huge improvements, incl. improved dystonia Link to comment
Iggy131313 Posted April 18, 2015 Author Share Posted April 18, 2015 thanks btdt, thats interesting, I know on the pssd ste 5ht1a are studied closely, I wonder if in that study you quoted they checked on receptor rebound at intervals, i will have a good read thanks hon, could be very useful I know my ht2a receptors ecertainly upregulate, I KNOW it from the weed and from other things, i would put my parents life on the fact that my problems stem from supersensitivity of 5ht2a...i KNOW it Wiggleit, yes you are right, but thats what im trying to work with, the fact that drugs have a knock on effect on other systems in the brain is the reason i am having symtpoms, my symptoms are largely due to dopamine inhibition, although my dopamine system will be largely unchanged....and its about working with the brains natural ''negative feedback loops'' I wouldnt rush out and start trying different drugs, BUT....I do feel I am onto something here....and you have just hit the 5/6 month rebound upregulation that I am told by alot of admins doesnt exsist, that waves happen for no reason....its not something i belive, I belive that waves ALWAYS happen for a reason...this can be illusive, it could be low barrowmetric pressure leading to mast cell degranulation, leading to sertonin overwhelm, it could be pollen or allergies causing the same thing, it could be positive ions from the full moon, estrogen acting as an ssri, progesterone raising the amounts of serotonin, something we ate, drank, inhaled or bloody looked at that has caused it, exercise, anticipation, stress, (although stress can be wonderful for me, really helps the symptoms) and it can be the period of time one has been off the drug or holding at a certain dose..... add infinitum but I belive there of course is a reason behind all waves, I do not belive that waves are ''healing'' waves are a manifestation of the damage caused by a change in brain chemistry..in some cases this change is necessary and could be described as healing, for example if we have receptor upregulation at 6 months off the drug....this has to happen in order to heal....then we must either lose the supersensitivity of those receptors or allow downregulation to happen again....this all takes a huge amount of time THIS IS MY OWN THEORY AND NOT OF THIS PAGE... I had huge receptor upregulation in Nov 2013...I had been holding at a dose for 5/6 months, before then I had tapered from 20mg (of a failed reinstaement severe adverse reaction) as I had been tapering for 2 years, without holding to allow upregulation to happen at a rate that wouldnt be too severe, i had 19.5mg of upregulation to cope with...i was incredibly severe and bedridden for 7 weeks...i slowly began to come out of that mess, and in febuary started smoking a little cannabis.....that as usual gave me a functioning I couldnt imagine...and lessened my suffering a great deal.......but it turned on me after 6 weeks of use, as highlighted in my above findings this time, I have not used cannabis everyday..that can be hard when im suffering alot and i know it will stop it, but by using it in a '''pulse'' way, im trying to stop the brain adapting and upregulating the 5ht2a as happened before.....i have managed to maintain this for 5 months now without upregulation....if I hadnt had the enormous setback with taking ibuprophen I wouldnt be on this ste at all.....but managing to get by with my life sadly, thats not the case now right so woke with mild terror today and came on my period which is good as I really cant have a baby right now and bad as im in for 2 weeks of HELL it was great to feel ok yesreday, a hangover and a little cannabis made me a normal person, with tiny spikes of akathisia around 5 pm, and from 9pm when serotonin gets real high...also i took my dose around then which always makes me worse......im holding for 2 more months and will drop to 0.39 in june I have made a start on my paper about withdrawal syndrome, its not going to happen quickly damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
Iggy131313 Posted April 18, 2015 Author Share Posted April 18, 2015 you see btdt 5ht1a are autoreceptors,.their behaviour and function are definitly different to the rest of the 5ht receptors////// however, my experience is not indicative of 5ht1a desensitisation, as if that was the case symptoms would be there from the moment of discontinuation and not months and months later, which points rather obviously to upregulation damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
Muddles Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I think that link btdt has posted is what has happened to me. For example - I have smoked in withdrawal...I don't get any pleasure or relaxation or anything compared to what I did get before poop-out...same for alcahol or anything else...it goes toxic and my head goes totally numb. The receptors or whatever that these drugs are supposed to alter...are damaged in my mind. Somebody else has posted this about Mirtazapine withdrawal - he tried a beer and got NOTHING....it does not effect him...nothing happens. What the hell is this? I seek something to lift me from this complete deadness and nothing works? 2008 - Doctors appointment with stress induced anxiety led to Citalopram prescription. Severe adverse reaction Mirtazapine prescribed - adverse reaction but told to stay on. Poop out - December 2013 15mg Currently on 13.5mg, April 12mg May 10th - 11mg June 10th - 10mg July 8th - 9mg September - 0mg Link to comment
Iggy131313 Posted April 18, 2015 Author Share Posted April 18, 2015 In my opinion it is the 5ht1a desensitisation, but thats ONLY my opinion...give it a few years..your no where near trying things.....and it would be very dangerous....when you say you have had a smoke, do you mean cannabis? Or ciggies? Mirtazapines a tricky one...how long now since you discontinued hon? Yes I know yours is poop out, and in my opinion this is severe desensitisation of the 5ht1a receptor which in turn has disinhibited serotonin in the brain.....as its the 5ht1a autoreceptor, altering things like dopamine are not gonna make any difference becasue no matter what you do post synaptically...its being inhobited by the autoreceptors..... in a few years if you feel you need to (and I KNOW theres gonna be alot more knowledge by then) there will most likely be treatment options and better understanding THE PANDEMIC IS COMING......this is happening OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN......it cant be kept undercover for ever...there will be a time when the drug companies will be forced to admit thhe damage these drugs do and then they will be trying to make money by finding cures.....you hang in there muddles, good things are coming..... damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
btdt Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 "(and I KNOW theres gonna be alot more knowledge by then) there will most likely be treatment options and better understanding THE PANDEMIC IS COMING......this is happening OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN......it cant be kept undercover for ever...there will be a time when the drug companies will be forced to admit thhe damage these drugs do and then they will be trying to make money by finding cures.....you hang in there muddles, good things are coming....." I have been thinking this for several years now Iggy... I don't know I hope your right perhaps they are as lost in the dark as we are... they don't know how to fix it... Here is an interesting thought/question: If pharma came up with a cure for wd... all of it ... would you take it.. would you believe them? I for one don't know that I would... how odd is that... in cage and the keys are offered and I stand there trained to inertia ...is there such a thing as JADED to DEATH I wonder... I would watch others and see if it worked on them.. first then I would still be too scared to try the new fix it drug... when does it all go to hell and the new drug...bit your face off... maybe JADED will be what takes me down.. old song what makes you live can kill you in the end... hmm sorry for rambling on your thread steams are not easily stopped in my head... peace WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
Tilly Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Here is an interesting thought/question: If pharma came up with a cure for wd... all of it ... would you take it.. would you believe them? Good question, btdt. Very thought provoking. My answer is absolutely not. If I have learned anything throughout the process of taking and withdrawing from SSRIs, it is that you cannot medicate human emotions or physical pain away. In my experience, the path that lead me to SSRI treatment was better served by a holistic, non drug approach provided within a supportive environment. All of the research in the world and subsequent medical interventions can not heal a person. These methods merely suppress symptomatology and underlying issues. Healing takes place on a holistic level; biological, social, behavioural and spiritual, with more needs than science and drugs can cater to or even begin to meet. As such, healing lies within this same holistic approach, for me personally. I would rather feel pain and learn to cope with it, strengthen as a result and modify my environment to serve me better. The alternative being living within a chemically induced state whereby stability is dependent, yet again, upon a daily pill. Personality and emotions are liable to be suspended in a haze of indifference, apathy or severe blunting in order to facilitate such 'stability'. This cost is way too high to anticipate and the method is excessive to the presenting needs, as with SSRI (over) prescription in the first instance. "Fool me once Shame on you Fool me twice Shame on me." --Chinese Proverb. “I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better.”- Maya Angelou 1999 - 2004 Paroxetine 20mg -> 2004 - 2007 Citalopram 20mg -> 2007 - short term Trazedone use (insomnia) -> 2007 - 2009 Fluoxetine 20mg -> 2009 - Jan 2012 Citalopram 20mg (Spring / Summer 2012 protracted withdrawal & related agoraphobia) -> 2012 - September Restarted Citalopram - unbearable start up effects. Discontinued in under 1 week -> Oct 12 - October 2014 Escitalopram - 10mg prescribed. Started on 5mg and worked up to 10mg in 2.5mg increments -> Oct 2014 - 5mg; 30/03/15 2.5mg; 15/04/15 3.5mg; 20/05/15 2.9mg; 19/09/15 2.8mg; 30/10/15 2.7mg; 13/11/15 2.6mg. Holding until March. Diet: mostly pescatarianl & lots of veg. Weekly offal for b vitamins. Turmeric, nigella seeds, avocados, apple cider vinegar, coconut products daily. Lots of fluids: water, lemon juice, coconut water, herbal & green tea (decaffeinated). Supplements: vitamin C 4000mg, Omega 3 fish oil - high DPA & EHA, vitamin E 400iu, vitamin D3 5000mg (Winter only - from sun in Spring / Summer), probiotics. Current Symptoms: chronic fatigue, erratic sleep, extreme photophobia, eye floaters, noise sensitivity, tinnitus, cognitive & speech difficulties, dizziness, irregular gait, poor co ordination, severe facial and upper body muscle tension, head and neck pressure. Coping Strategies: good nutrition, cooking, gardening & growing my own food, cycling, dancing, yoga, photography, sewing & creative pursuits, self massage, pampering, meditation, journalling, nature, cuddling cats & humans, laughter & humour, gratitude, self care, aromatherapy, audio books, word games & believing in myself, my potential and my future. "Everything I need is within me" - Shakti Gawain Link to comment
btdt Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I guess we are the same in that respect Tilly. Reminds of a song things do now days..". Would you offer your throat to the wolf with the red roses? " He: "On hot summer night, would you offer yout throat to the wolf with the red roses?" She: "Will he offer me his mouth?" He: "Yes." She: "Will he offer me his teeth?" He: "Yes." She: "Will he offer me his jaws?" He: "Yes." She: "Will he offer me his hunger?" He: "Yes." She: "Again, will he offer me his hunger? He: "YES!" She: "And will he starve without me?" He: "YES!" She: "And does he love me?" He: "Yes." She: "Yes..." He: "On a hot summer night, would you offer your throat to the wolf with the red roses?" She: "Yes." He: "I bet you say that to all the boys!"[1] "The tragedy of the song, is that she did not realize that his profession of love was but a means to an end... the taking of her. No respect for her afterwards, no glorious and rewarding end, just a wasted gift of something most precious. The tragedy of the boy and girl in the back seat is similar. The tragedy of our compliance" Interesting word compliance... Doctors use it a lot. WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
btdt Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Iggy what are you plans as to getting off the drug? Are you planning on getting off completely? WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
Tilly Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I guess we are the same in that respect Tilly. Reminds of a song things do now days..". Would you offer your throat to the wolf with the red roses? " He: "On hot summer night, would you offer yout throat to the wolf with the red roses?" She: "Will he offer me his mouth?" He: "Yes." She: "Will he offer me his teeth?" He: "Yes." She: "Will he offer me his jaws?" He: "Yes." She: "Will he offer me his hunger?" He: "Yes." She: "Again, will he offer me his hunger? He: "YES!" She: "And will he starve without me?" He: "YES!" She: "And does he love me?" He: "Yes." She: "Yes..." He: "On a hot summer night, would you offer your throat to the wolf with the red roses?" She: "Yes." He: "I bet you say that to all the boys!"[1] "The tragedy of the song, is that she did not realize that his profession of love was but a means to an end... the taking of her. No respect for her afterwards, no glorious and rewarding end, just a wasted gift of something most precious. The tragedy of the boy and girl in the back seat is similar. The tragedy of our compliance" Interesting word compliance... Doctors use it a lot. We share a lot of similar views btdt. I remember this song from my childhood (Meatloaf - Bat Out Of Hell?). Compliance is used in the most horrendous way in medical circles often leading to additional labels if a person is 'non compliant' with treatment. It is a means of social control often more restrictive than a prison sentence, whereby civil liberties and personal control are easily lost. Doctors use this word a lot in the absence of up to date knowledge and given that their interests lie with pharmaceutical representatives who provide their training and line their pockets. And so the cycle (of abuse) continues. 1999 - 2004 Paroxetine 20mg -> 2004 - 2007 Citalopram 20mg -> 2007 - short term Trazedone use (insomnia) -> 2007 - 2009 Fluoxetine 20mg -> 2009 - Jan 2012 Citalopram 20mg (Spring / Summer 2012 protracted withdrawal & related agoraphobia) -> 2012 - September Restarted Citalopram - unbearable start up effects. Discontinued in under 1 week -> Oct 12 - October 2014 Escitalopram - 10mg prescribed. Started on 5mg and worked up to 10mg in 2.5mg increments -> Oct 2014 - 5mg; 30/03/15 2.5mg; 15/04/15 3.5mg; 20/05/15 2.9mg; 19/09/15 2.8mg; 30/10/15 2.7mg; 13/11/15 2.6mg. Holding until March. Diet: mostly pescatarianl & lots of veg. Weekly offal for b vitamins. Turmeric, nigella seeds, avocados, apple cider vinegar, coconut products daily. Lots of fluids: water, lemon juice, coconut water, herbal & green tea (decaffeinated). Supplements: vitamin C 4000mg, Omega 3 fish oil - high DPA & EHA, vitamin E 400iu, vitamin D3 5000mg (Winter only - from sun in Spring / Summer), probiotics. Current Symptoms: chronic fatigue, erratic sleep, extreme photophobia, eye floaters, noise sensitivity, tinnitus, cognitive & speech difficulties, dizziness, irregular gait, poor co ordination, severe facial and upper body muscle tension, head and neck pressure. Coping Strategies: good nutrition, cooking, gardening & growing my own food, cycling, dancing, yoga, photography, sewing & creative pursuits, self massage, pampering, meditation, journalling, nature, cuddling cats & humans, laughter & humour, gratitude, self care, aromatherapy, audio books, word games & believing in myself, my potential and my future. "Everything I need is within me" - Shakti Gawain Link to comment
btdt Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I am very tired of the labels I can recall so many times being hopeful that finally they knew what was wrong with me I would hurry to tell loved ones we got it this time... and all along it was a ******* drug reaction... what a con job my entire life I was conned... think I am done with labels if you don't respect those who label you they don't mean much to you personally but how you are treated by others who put weight to those labels can make seeing a doctor a terrifying thing as they still do have power. WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
Tilly Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I am very tired of the labels I can recall so many times being hopeful that finally they knew what was wrong with me I would hurry to tell loved ones we got it this time... and all along it was a ******* drug reaction... what a con job my entire life I was conned... think I am done with labels if you don't respect those who label you they don't mean much to you personally but how you are treated by others who put weight to those labels can make seeing a doctor a terrifying thing as they still do have power. I worked in the mental health field for some time. I supported people well and enjoyed my work and rapport with people. However, I now doubt that any of the so called 'functional mental health diagnoses' actually exist. Don't get me wrong, I have suffered from anxiety and panic attacks to a debilitating extent. The effects are very real, distressing and impair functioning. However, this was a perfectly normal response to trauma not a 'chemical imbalance'. Given therapeutic support and the time and breathing space to heal, I'm guessing that I would have made a full recovery within a year to 18 months. I have very little respect for or confidence in GPs as a consequence of my experiences. The labels that they dole out are meaningless. They are based on mere speculation, with no scientific basis or aetiology. I also choose not to associate with people who give credence to labelling processes in relation to psychiatric labelling or the labelling of any other 'group'. I have never found such people to be compassionate or to have any common ground that I share with them. Life is too short and too precious to have to tolerate this ignorance. 1999 - 2004 Paroxetine 20mg -> 2004 - 2007 Citalopram 20mg -> 2007 - short term Trazedone use (insomnia) -> 2007 - 2009 Fluoxetine 20mg -> 2009 - Jan 2012 Citalopram 20mg (Spring / Summer 2012 protracted withdrawal & related agoraphobia) -> 2012 - September Restarted Citalopram - unbearable start up effects. Discontinued in under 1 week -> Oct 12 - October 2014 Escitalopram - 10mg prescribed. Started on 5mg and worked up to 10mg in 2.5mg increments -> Oct 2014 - 5mg; 30/03/15 2.5mg; 15/04/15 3.5mg; 20/05/15 2.9mg; 19/09/15 2.8mg; 30/10/15 2.7mg; 13/11/15 2.6mg. Holding until March. Diet: mostly pescatarianl & lots of veg. Weekly offal for b vitamins. Turmeric, nigella seeds, avocados, apple cider vinegar, coconut products daily. Lots of fluids: water, lemon juice, coconut water, herbal & green tea (decaffeinated). Supplements: vitamin C 4000mg, Omega 3 fish oil - high DPA & EHA, vitamin E 400iu, vitamin D3 5000mg (Winter only - from sun in Spring / Summer), probiotics. Current Symptoms: chronic fatigue, erratic sleep, extreme photophobia, eye floaters, noise sensitivity, tinnitus, cognitive & speech difficulties, dizziness, irregular gait, poor co ordination, severe facial and upper body muscle tension, head and neck pressure. Coping Strategies: good nutrition, cooking, gardening & growing my own food, cycling, dancing, yoga, photography, sewing & creative pursuits, self massage, pampering, meditation, journalling, nature, cuddling cats & humans, laughter & humour, gratitude, self care, aromatherapy, audio books, word games & believing in myself, my potential and my future. "Everything I need is within me" - Shakti Gawain Link to comment
btdt Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Agree with all you say to have a choice who had power over you life would be idea ... I we all remain in situations where we keep said power. I can think of situations where choices are taken away and I hate the thought... at those times the labels kick in.. that is what is on my mind. Peace WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
Iggy131313 Posted April 19, 2015 Author Share Posted April 19, 2015 Hi btdt, yes I plan og getting off comlpetely, but it will take me a number of years, at the moment quality of life is what matters and now I have a greater understanding I can make my own plans comfident that I know what to expect... I wanted to say to you about your migraines and the thunder storm...yoiu are not alone in this, you obviously know that migraines are caused by serotonin, the reaon they break when the thunder starts is positive and negative ions.....negative ions reduce serotonin to the brain, positive ions increase it 10 fold....the low barrometric pressue build up before the storm (same as a full moon) will increase serotonin due to positive ions, then once the dtorm breaks the positive ions go and are replaced with negative...you may want to look into a negative ion generator? as for would i take a drug if it was the cure...in an instant...if I was offered a drug which would last 10 years and then this would return...I would take it damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
Iggy131313 Posted April 19, 2015 Author Share Posted April 19, 2015 also I find it interesting that Tilly says we cannot medicate human emotions away......i would have belived that,....until now, its only now that I realise everything that makes us human, our soul, everything can be taken away through medication....it makes me realise there is no God, we are simply slaves to brain chemistry,,,, but I do belive that what can be broken can be fixed muddles,, I have been doing some digging into the mechanism of action of mirtazapine, from the studies I have found so far I cannot see that it has any downregulation on dopamine receptors, i will continue looking but in my opinion the symptoms of complete anhedonia, seem much more associated with the desensitisation of 5ht1a......... damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
Iggy131313 Posted April 19, 2015 Author Share Posted April 19, 2015 update on me....came on my period yesterday...im still rather buoyed at my recent findings and research,,,that is helping me a great deal...no weed yesterday, none today...was having some nasty akathisia yesterday but had 2 glasses of wine...goodbye symptoms....had a bbq with the boyfriend and freddie, we had a lovely afternoon in the sun playing football in the garden, i planted some flowers...i tried to stay hopeful today ive woken with milder terror, yes I had a drink yesterday so the hangover effect might be present today but i stopped drinking around 6pm and only had 2 small glasses of wine so i dont think it will having a major effect on me today im looking forward to having some cannabis tomorrow, that will help me alot......even knowing that even if im bad today, tomorrow will be better helps me, i have made a small start on my paper on ''ssri withdrawal syndrome'' i havent even proof read it, its simply a start, I have a number of epople who have a greed to be ''case studies'' this is going to be an epic piece, this is simply an intorduction, it will take many months before its completed.....and i need to do some focus on kindling which is a major factor.... but for anyone who is interested, this is the start.... Hypothesis - ssri ''withdrawal syndrome'' is a tardive syndrome with the mechanism of action being the upregulation or super sensitivity of 5ht receptors..specifically 5ht2a receptors, and/or with 5ht1a autoreceptor desensitization In this paper I will attempt to support the above hypothisis using both anecdotal evidence (from people who have experienced ssri ''withdrawal syndrome'' or ''adverse reaction'') and established medical, scientific and pyscopharmalogical research studies... I use Tardive Dyskinesia as a model, as it is the only precednet we have and manifests in a similar way, and I belive, with a similar mechanism of action, only on a different brain system (in this case the serotonin systtem as oppsoed to dopamine) Tardive Dyskinesia is a tardive (or late onset) syndrome most often casued from the administration of Anti Psychotic medication...it is widely held that the mechanism of action behind TD is the upregulation or supersensitivity of D2 receptors,(1, 2) although more recent research has found that D3 receptor upregulation could be indicated....(3)1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1031632/2) http://priory.com/tardive-dyskinesia.htm 3) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24838395 The usual onset of symtoms manifesting in ssri ''withdrawal syndrome'' appear on average 5 months after the medication has been been stopped.....people before this time experienecing only mild symtpoms or feeling entirely well until around this timeframe (4)....once receptor supersensitity has occured, reinstatement of the ssri will more often result in an adverse or paradoxical reaction and the symtpoms will worsten considerably if reinstatment occurs before the onset of symtpoms, it is usually successful, however attempting to reinstate the drug after the tardive symptoms have manifested only seems to cause the severity to increase... All these findings support the hypothisis...if an ssri is admistered on a supersentitised set of 5ht2a receptors, adding more serotonin is intuitivly the wrong choice as it further activates supersensitised receptors.if, however, the drug is reinstated before the receptors have upregulated, the ssri can maintain the downregulation without its action on inreasing activation of sensitised 5ht2a receptors In part, I must relate my own experiences, mirrored by others to support the hypothisis....my own reaction, for example, to using cannabis as a possible m itigation factor....I found that using cannabis gives me great relief from my symptoms..the mechanism of action most likely being that it acts as an agonist at 5ht1a therefore attenuating the serotonin production to the rest of the 5ht post synaptic receptors resulting in relief from the symtpoms by allowing dopamine to build in the VTA....also its actions as a dopamine agonisthttp://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16258853 however, when used chronically, suh as everyday use, my symptoms dramitically worsten, this, I found was relted to action of 5ht2a upregulation with chronic usehttp://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3552103/ the severe worstening of all my symptoms after cannabis mediated upregulation of 5ht2a conformed to me that 5ht2a upregulation was indeed at the heart of my issues...... Another supporting factor in the serotonin supersensitivity theory is that all people with severe ssri discontinuation syndrome have severe negative effects from any substance that raises serotonin (see case studies) In some cases I see people becoming lost as to why pollen season causes a severe worstening and the focus being shifted onto other systems such as hstamine, indeed, some ssris and tcas have potent H1 antagonistic features and in these cases we have seen severe anaphilaxis from seemingly harmless histamine containing products, such as balsamic vinegar, or starwberrys, all very high in histamine, but things that were eaily tolerated with no reaction before the discontinuation of the drug....showing a supersensitivity or upregulation in responce to the H1 antagonism also... However in most cases, the onset of more severe akathisia, is not due to the histamine in allergic reaction, but instead, to the mast cell degranulation which contain not only histamine, but serotonin, again increaseing serootnin and causing a flare of symptoms damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
Iggy131313 Posted April 19, 2015 Author Share Posted April 19, 2015 ugh I knew I would start to get worse now my period has settled in.....im usually ok the day it starts, but then as it contiues, as estrogen rises it gets worse, and worse, and WORSE......its serotonin of course....estrgoen acts like an ssri.... So I was *ok* this morning kind of ok, getting by, I played football with my boy out on the front for an hour, we did his homework and i played some xbox then the boyfriend wanted to go out so we all went to a big soft play area....this was 4pm, I always worsetn around this time, and sure enough, on the way the familar worstening started to creep in, at first i couldnt understand it, but then i saw the time (I swaer I could tell you what time of day it is simply by my symptoms) so I looked at the clock thinking, cant be 4pm already?? yup, 4.20 so, this time its dizzyness, spaceyness, whoozyness, anxiety, but not severe, much milder and I was able to self talk through it (had to do it constanly though) and the sikness is coming back in again.....this all fits I guess but its disheartening as ever no booze, gonna have a drag on a joint tonight when my son is in bed, hopefully that will help with this damn nausea, i never had nausea before the ibuprophen reaction.....watch this space, ugh, ugh, ugh but i cant complain, this severe nausea, and the spacenyness i can cope with, its horrible, but its NOT torture, feeling this sick is extreely unpleasent, but I wouldnt EVER describe akathisia as extremely unplseant....that is inhuman, unendurable torture that no human being should ever have to endure...in fact it should be used on child killers..... if someone ever hurt my child, i would wish on them akathisia...THATS how bad it is......and i would say it with a knowing smile that there is nothing worse im scared though, im scared by the intensity building, even though I know its going to at this time, my hope is that by my next period the reaction to the ibuprophen(missed dose) will have decreased more...its usually taken me around 4-6 weeks to start to recover from bad setbacks and get back to where I was before.... apart from the weed reaction last year...that was much much slower....so why the hell am i doing it again? I hear you ask.....and its becasue the relief in the moment is too greater pull.........and i tell myself that as long as i dont allow myself to use it daily and pulse it instead that it will work.......and i have maintained it for 5 months now...before it turned on me after 6 weeks continuous use.... damaged by citalopram - severe suffering for 3 years now...no improvement akathsiia, pgad, dp/dr, terror, and so SO many more daily severly disabled and lost everything Link to comment
btdt Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 There use to be this place I talked called Effexor withdrawal topix.. the site has been taken down completely like pp... on that site there use to be a thread about periods how hormones affected the withdrawal process there were some good things there... Now I know it is gone but I also know there is this site called way back machine and some other things call google something or other that makes copies of sites... and I know there are copies but i don't know how to search for a specific thing... There were some articles on there that may be helpful around this issue if you know how to find them... I don't I think the title were around periods can't recall the word if it was menstruation or not another one was about the effects of drugs on birth control pills how they interact... both may help your understanding. I am sorry my head is so bad I should know this but I don't. peace WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
btdt Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Hi btdt, yes I plan og getting off comlpetely, but it will take me a number of years, at the moment quality of life is what matters and now I have a greater understanding I can make my own plans comfident that I know what to expect... I wanted to say to you about your migraines and the thunder storm...yoiu are not alone in this, you obviously know that migraines are caused by serotonin, the reaon they break when the thunder starts is positive and negative ions.....negative ions reduce serotonin to the brain, positive ions increase it 10 fold....the low barrometric pressue build up before the storm (same as a full moon) will increase serotonin due to positive ions, then once the dtorm breaks the positive ions go and are replaced with negative...you may want to look into a negative ion generator? as for would i take a drug if it was the cure...in an instant...if I was offered a drug which would last 10 years and then this would return...I would take it I think your right I should buy one of these units last time I looked they were costly but I looked again today they are not so bad they have a usb one for computers not sure where to buy one other than amazon and I am not a credit card holder any longer. I was asking about getting off the drug completely as I thought perhaps it may help you feel better some others have noticed improvement when they were completely off the drug I know I am saying this without the benefit of knowing your history as I am Johny come lately here... I am sure you have read a lot of histories by now.. it was just a from the hip idea. Maybe worth looking at ... about taking the cure drug... I would never be able to bring myself to believe them if they said it would work for 10 years I would say bs... see that is my problem. The thunderstorm head aches are one thing but I have other non storm related ones some bad enough to resort to knock out drugs... other I just limp around with. I sometimes can't tell if they are migraines or something else if they wake me up from pain like they have been this wk I think they are migraine material but seems I was wrong maybe .. I finally went to the doc he thinks it is a blocked sinus but not an infection so more steroids this time for my nose... ugh... hate steriods. Not sure I believe him this one a clinic doc dropped the ball when I had a broken rib and pneumonia said I have virus... so who knows. Wishing you well Iggy. WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
btdt Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 "Negative ion generators are not a cure all. They do cause the body to convert excess serotonin (the antagonist for most of the problems) into a harmless chemical called 5HA ( 5-HIAA )." Does this sound right to you.. I can't retain information right now. picked it up here http://altered-states.net/index2.php?/ionizers/ozonemyths.htm I have long looked for immune connections cause of the CFS issue... found this interesting "Negative ions in the blood stream accelerate the delivery of oxygen to our cells and tissues, frequently giving us the same euphoric jolt that we get from a few whiffs of straight oxygen. Positive ions slow down the delivery of oxygen, producing symptoms markedly like those in anoxia, or oxygen starvation. Researchers also believe that negative ions may stimulate the reticuloendothelial system; a group of defense cells in our bodies which marshal our resistance to disease." WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
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