Iggy131313 validation is imminent

[btdt]

next logical step 

Effect of high doses of serotonin on the activity of the  reticuloendothelial system  ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5659933

by E Mietkiewski - ‎1968

Acta Physiol Pol. 1968 Jan-Feb;19(1):59-64. [Effect of high doses of serotonin on the activity of the reticuloendothelial system in rabbits]. [Article in Polish]

 

empty

[Iggy131313]

that study is blank for me hon

 

well severe akathisia kicked in last night, weed not helping, I knew it would get worse at this time, and it gets worse and worse.....no hangiver today and ive woken with akathisia....it was waking me up all night too

 

im up and getting my son ready for school in great distress, (inward) and very scared...hate how bad it gets over my period etc...scared...very scared

[btdt]

I know your impatient to have a life and don't want to surrender to this I know all about being a fighter.  I think I must have been some sort of foolish warrior in my last life that haunts me still with some urge to never say uncle and fight till I die. I have been changed so much in so many ways yet that part rings clear as soon as I am well enough to feel anything this is what I feel. An all or nothing longing to have back what is rightfully mine... a life. 

 

Still if you look at the facts and the long term something is missing from this picture that pushes me to take a look at the long process... how much time in the way of life years can we afford to miss... those bad days add up they add up for us in collective wear and tear... more than that they add up for those we love too.  All they are missing all the small human things ... I say this thinking of your son and mine now grown... I was drugged most of his life.  

 

Something is missing from this healing path we need to find it as nobody else is going to do it for us that is my first warrior thought... then close behind it comes what am I willing to give up in way of warrior thoughts to have a mother child experience that is worth.... something.  I get stuck there as it is too late for me but it is not too late for you.  A lot of what was going on at the time I could not see then... me and other mothers who lost this with our kids... norxforme  and I talked a lot about this both long term drug users who missed the real essence of kids growing up.. sure we were there... we did the best we could it is not the same ... I wish I had better words right now. It is not that I don't think your doing the best you see for your child it is that you may see things differently if you never had a drug in your brain and your may see things differently later when the drug is out of your brain... There are things we can't put our fingers on that are afffected that we missed that we see post drugging that we could not always see when we were drugged... there was a sense of something was missing but never was it found... just kept being illusive. --For both Norxforme and for myself. Maybe I should not bring her into this as I have not seen her here in a long time... but I have to make a point it is not just me... maybe she will see her name if she still lurks here and comment. 

 

There are things affected still by your drug use and for some of us we had to be off the drug a long time before we could see this... that is why I ask if you have any plans to get right clean off the drug.  As you never know how much of what you think and feel right now it part of the drug still... it takes very little of a drug to affect us after a ct attempt very very little I once had a reaction to the tiny bit that was on my figures touching beads to count them for another online person when I was long long off E.  I could not believe the power of the drug ...wetting my finger to manipulate the beads put enough drug in my body to cause a very significant reaction that lasted some time... the drugs off the beads from one capsule was enough I was that sensitized to the drug.  These are the small tiny facts that nobody would ever know or think possible with these drug this is one of the trickster things about them and the way they affect the brain of us users.  I know a shrink or scientist would laugh me out of the room or give me another dx for saying this... but I tell you in the hope that you have been in that same room with those same people who disallow your experience ...same as they disallow mine.  Facts are facts and I think you still have a working brain... I know you still have great love for you child that will stay no matter what... I suggest a step back to consider this.  

 

I know this is likely the worst ever time to say any of this since it is period time I don't know why I function like I do .. and don't pick my times.. I think it is because if I don't do it now I may not have enough functionality in my brain later to do it so I have to get it out while I can manage it. I hope it this is the worst time that you will take a look at this when it is not the worst time and give it some thought. 

 

All that said I watched a show last night called Weed 3 about the pot yes and how different forms of it are not being studied to help people with different disorders even PTSD which was my last dx... seems when you have been thru the list of every other disorder on the psych drug list the big one that contains all the symptoms of the other psych disorders PTSD is the one you get... now I may have a completely different take on this than any shrink has as for me I started with no psych symptoms and ended with the grandaddy of the catch all one... I think it is drug induced as it took me years and years to growth this disorder.  I could be wrong but if I am that would mean for a good 10 years every shrink that dx me was wrong so much for the science behind all that.  Just saying that further drug use may actually cause further damage no matter how it may be taming the symptoms of the last dx... this is my take on it just my take on it.  

 

While there is one bit of the weed plant that has been taken by the US gov't under patent years ago as neuro protective .. I know lets not go into the duality of that.. I am not political... that patent has been bought by pharma now... they are doing studies but it may take years. When I think of the hope afforded by pot when I watched that program last night I looked into the eyes of the people who had been on the psych/pain marry go round for years who now use pot to treat their pain and their ptsd...

 

I looked into their eyes and I seen a far away something that to me is drug induced... still missing the mark.. still living under a veil yes it may be better than the other drugs and addictions and withdrawals .. still it is no less a veil of a drug.  Surely we can do better than that.... I hope we can.  I see the next new drug... the next step in what we will mess people up with this time. 

 

I am jaded we have already discerned that ... there is something more I know there is and I want it... and I don't want to settle... maybe all this is just me whining and screaming at the moon.. for damage done to stop being done to others... to turn back time to give back time which is impossible but really I think there is something in these words that may have the ability to get you to see the paths of the ones who came before you... so you can find a new path a better path.  

 

I say all I say with the greatest respect for you knowing where you are and how terribly difficult and terrifying it all is. If you deems my words pointless while I will feel this was a bit of a waste I also feel you can't read them and not get something even if you discount them now.  I have an obligation as a human to pass on what may help another human that is how I see it and I have done my bit here.  I hope it is of use to you in some small regard. 

 

In service and with peace...

B

[Iggy131313]

moving into the worst part of my period now.....woke with severe terror...had very severe akathisia last night that sex wiped out during the time that was going on but it came back after....

 

my theory still holds.......and i found something interesting for you muddles....

 

ive always held that anhedonia is more about 5ht1a than anything else.....the majority of anhedonia I have seen in prozac, lexapro, paxil and mirtazapine.....these drugs seem to have a more potent effect on 5ht1a and cause adaptations there that other ssris do not

 

for example....citalopram (the drug that destroyed my life) doesnt seem to have much action on changing 5ht1a

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1188564/

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19016488

 

it DOES however have massive implications to 5ht2a which I KNOW is my issue.......

 

and it has often confused me as to how I have every symptom but i dont have anhedonia......we look at someone like aberdeen who recovered from her effexor withdrawal using paxil....but in 6 months it pooped out (and you know my theory is 5ht1a desensitisation in poop out) and she developed severe anhedonia...

 

paxil is one of the drugs that works strongly as a 5ht1a agonist......my guess is that staying on thepaxil downregulated 5ht2a eliminating those symptoms, but the severe agonism at 5ht1a created the poop out and the anhedonic onset

 

it seems to me that 5ht1a is the cause of anhedonia....a downregulation or desensitisation.....ive seen people use further agonists at 5ht1a to help, sometimes it works, sometimes it desensitises things further....the key would be to UPREGULATE the 5ht1a in this case....ive seen the SJW does that but with the unfortunate effects of upregulating 5ht2a and increasing serotonin too....so for someone like muddles who has 5ht2a sensitivity, alongside 5ht1a desensitivity a ''trteatment'' would consist of a 5ht2a blocker followd by something like sjw....

 

THAT IS NOT A SUGGESTION....IM HYPOTHISING

 

But muddles, here is anotehr supporting study......even though the drug was bad for you...it was on the very sad passing of your father (god rest him) that your ''poop out'' (5ht1a desensitisation) really kicked off....

 

well look at this

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19147333

 

if I am right (and we all know I think i am) then the stress from your grief further acted on the 5ht1a receptors and caused more downregulation, and you pooped out, your 5ht1a became desensitised and serotonin now is flooding unchecked into the brain...inhibiting dopamine from reward centres and creating the anhedonic state...

 

we all talk about ''oh its becasue everyones brain isdifferent'' etc etc...but i think its becasue the action of each drug is dfferent, thats why our symptoms manifest in deifferent ways, and why I have severe akathisia....severe kindling of 5ht2a, incredible upregulation, akathisia, terror, dread, pagd, norepeinephrine symtpoms.....and others who have 5ht1a symptoms seem to be more about anhedonia

 

although I know people who of course, have both

 

and im not saying that citalopram cant cause anhedonia, I have read accounts where it has casued it, but rarely, and in those cases the poeple suffring have been very young (15) or have been on other drugs prior to citalopram use

[Muddles]

Interesting - thank you. My dads death deffo did something. ...although I reackon I was in poop-out for a long time before hand. Couldn't risk taking sjw - I react to magnesium! Hope you get better once your period stops.

I don't see any change in me with mine. They stopped for months but have come back full force...never effects anything though.

[Muddles]

And I also think that there is also a lot more involved with some people in withdrawal. So much can be effected. I've just posted a link on my thread - to do with chemcial sensitivites. Once one thing is out - everything else can get thrown out too. I just think it all depends on certainly what drug, genes, neuro-plasticity blah blah blah. Everybody is so different - hence a lot of people not suffering like we all do.

[Iggy131313]

but I personally think anyone would suffer like this if they go on and off enough times, muddles, did you mess around with your mirt? I mean, did you miss doses? miss a few days and then start again? did you kindle yourself?

 

My akathisia is out of control, im better in one way than I was during my period last month, but the akathisia is stronger, the sickness is a little less....

 

my theory is developing and is still absolutley fitting....my problem is 5ht2a.....i have waaaay too many, its weird, just before i woke up this morning, in that space between sleep and wakefullness 2 things came to me, firstly, the mechanism behind kindling, and secondly why cannabis gave me a perfect day after a whitey.....

 

i just need to find the right studies to reinforce my veiw

 

but at last, everything fits, every single thing I have been through, every miraculous recovery period, every terrible setback....i can explain and support every single bit of it through kindling and chronic upregulation of 5ht2a.....indeed other systems are effected, but not to the point of life ruining desperate suffering, cure the serotonin issue and the smaller adaptations caused in others areas will self correct.....

 

ill use money as an example

 

mr x is in debt, he has baliffs knocking on his door, his home is going to be repossessed, his wife says she going to leave him, and his children are desperatly unhappy becasue mum and dad and rowing, as a consequence all their school work is suffering, they cry alot, and lose friends,........Mr x drinks too much, he spends all the money he does earn down the pub and then lays in bed with a hangover the next day instaed of going to earn money........

 

IF in this scenario mr x stops drinking and goes to work every day.....all of these knock on effects stop.....

 

mr x has been getting up and going to work for a month, his wife loves it and is thrilled, she has dinner ready for him each day to show her grattitude, he is grateful, their relationship gets better and the children see this

 

the childrens work improves at school, there is enough money to take the kids out and invite their friends

 

the bills are met and paid off

 

harmony is retored

 

BECASUE WE HAVE TO ADDRESS THE CAUSE......all the other malfunctions will self correct...I belive this with all my heart,. I know it becasue i am living it, I am able to go from unholy suffering to completely normal...all depending on the state of the old 5ht2a receptors...when they are blocked or downregulated, all my symptoms stop

 

they stop

 

when serotonin is reduced to the brain, they are vastly mitigated....but why react so badly to missing a dose then?? ahhhhh well we are back to receptors....when i took that ibuprophen and basially missed a day and a half, perhaps 2 days...and the sypptoms got worse and worse.....it was becasue my brain realised that the BOMBARDMENT of receptors was gone....RESTORE HOMEOSTASIS...it said, there is WAAAY less serotonin here than usual....boom, receptor upregulation......like every single damn setback I have had, apart from 1 which was fish oils, that didnt upregulate receptors, it increased serotonin massivly, which in turn activated those upregulated receptors.....when i stopped and the oils got out of my system, i went back to the normal state of suffering...and also when the dose was acidentatly raised through the fresh bottle of citalopram

 

but upregulation setbacks take far far longer to recover from.....

 

becasue i cannot find studies on the rebound of 5ht2a...if anyone can find any I would be most interested to see them...howevere I would imagine that different substances cause different recovery/rebound rate of the receptors....we know that on average it takes 4-10 months for 5ht2a receptors to upregulate from ssris...no one has to tell me that, Ive seen it time and time and time again...however, i think it takes them around 4 weeks to rebound from downregulation due to wee.....but we could be talking about the difference between internalisation and downregulation here

 

so today...ugggggh last night the aka was SO bad from around 6pm...it kickied in and it did so with purpose......so strong...as usual 2 things mitigated it......sexual contact...that made it stop for the duration of contact...and then it returned straight away and then my old friend external stress popped in to say hello

 

my boyfriend got some bad debt letters and got in a foul mood, was harsh with me.....goodbye akathisia.......and it has NOTHING to do with distracton, as once this happened, I was able to go in the kitchen and cook tea....i was thinking about akathisia, how the stress had made it go away...i was researching and focused completely on akathisia....not the stresser.....but the chemical process that stress had triggered (dopamine increase) stopped the symptoms, later of course it returned, particularly after I had eaten (and we all know that eating increases serotonin alot so it figures)

 

I went to bed in agony

 

this morning i awoke with it there......weed is not stopping it this time so im having some time off.....the upregulation is too much for 5ht1a agonism to help really, especially as im on my period and estrogen is rising.....and i need to be careful that i dont use it too much and cause upregulation....

 

its odd when i was reading some studies about cannabis and its upregulation of 5ht2a and where it upregulates it, that explains why i was lactating...yes it made me lactate ALOT...and also why I developed big time floaters in my eyes.......both of those things are assocoiated with upregulated 5ht2a but in certain areas of the brain......

 

it also explains a curious account I read last september while I was in my setback from the fresh more potent bottle of citalopram

 

I take 0.40 of a mg...but as I was taking from a 2 year old bottle that would have been far less im sure.....at the time I was reacting SO BAD to that, I read another guy who had an accidental updose due to stopping a medication that somehow reduced serotonin...when he stopped that mediacyion severe akathisia set in due to an updose of the ssri

 

he UPDOSED the ssri again after dropping made no difference and that was what eventually helped him....I was baffled, but now, of course I understand....he needed to downregulate more receptors to get relief, thats why updosing eventually helped.....

 

its a see saw effect.......drop but not much much that we get receptor rebound at a rate we cannot keep up with..it figures that when i missed the dose I got 10 MILLION symtpoms, becasue when my brain registared a massie decrease in serotonin it upregulated ALL the 5ht receptors....thats why I have been so bloody nauseas, 5ht3 upregulation causing the severe awful nausea, 5ht2a and c causing the unholy akathisia and terror...5ht4 receptors cauing the heart rythum changes etc etc

 

the nausea is a good indictor to me of what is casuing what......last night the nausea came with the akathisia......so this to me said ''this is a rise in serotonin, not an upregulation of 5ht2a'' as my 5ht3 receptors are obviously not upregulated to a point of ''severe'' as im not often nauseas....so serotonin was high enough to stimulate and agonise both the 5ht2a and the 5ht3....causing both symptoms

 

i have my boy today, hes on a school trip to a farm......i pick him up in 3 hours, just as the akathisia starts to get worse...ive read that serotonin peaks at 5pm so thats why i get so much worse around that time...and also at 9, 10 and 11pm which is another bad time for me...basically from 5pm onwards i have akathisia...and its INTENSE....

 

and with being at this point of my period and the estrogen acting as another ssri on my system, theres little wonder im so bad

 

even wine last night didnt help, although i was drinking white wine, ill try red next time, that seems to help more,

[Iggy131313]

ok...kindling, a work in progress.....

 

from my setbacks on a highly sensitised brain, i have come up with a speculative theory on the mechanism behind kindling....this is why I am as bad as I am...I took citalopram for 2 and a half years...and yet I am one of the very worst cases...a horror story.....one of the people others fear of becoming like......

 

why?? its simple it was how I abused the drug.....I never needed an ssri, I was put on for what turned out to be a lung problem, misdiagnosed as anxiety, in fact, more fool me, the ONLY REASON I TOOK THE SSRI was to proove to the dr that it WASNT anxiety...haha, after 6 weeks when I went back and said see, i still cant breath and im on your Ads...she raised the doseage to 40mg, gee, thanks dr...6 weeks later when I went back and said but dr i still cant breathe, I was reffered and admitted to hospital and had my lungs sorted out.....but at this point i was on the ssri, I didnt notice things were any worse or any better with anything regarding mental health but i never had any issues to begin with....i had just had a baby and was at my happiest.....of course, no one listened to me at the time, but i kept on taking the citalopram, becasue i just did.....

 

but I always knew I didnt need an antidepressant, so therefore I took it like everything else, i couldnt ever take the pill, becasue i wouldnt do it, I would take it for a while and then forget or not be bothered to for a while and then start again, and thats exactly what I did with the citalopram

 

right from the start I would take it for a week then not bother until I got head zaps, when I started to get zaps, I would think ''oh **** i dont want withdrawal'' so I started again....in my mind ''withdrawal'' was a weekend ruined having head zaps and dizzy spells.....

 

so for 2 years i stopped and started, for a year at 40mg and then when drs questioned me ''why have you not run out? you should have run out by now'' I said i was only taking 20mg, so i then had a 20mg presription and once again resummed my on off taking of now 20mg....take 20mg for a few days, stop until i get head zaps, start again for a few days, on and on we went....until one day in march I had run out, and I couldnt be bothered to go to the drs so I let the head zaps play out..I CTed and I thought it was all over

 

now during that time, I must have CTed the drug, gosh, 40-50 times...and its only NOW in my ultra sensitised state that I can see what was happening....here is my theory of kindling (and its a crucial factor that reducing serotonin to the brain makes me feel better but sudden retraction of the ssri is too much and therefore casues upregulation)
.........

 

 

we have around 250,000 I belive 5ht2a, I cant find where I read that, but we will go with that for theroretical purposes....but for now, lets make it easy and say we have 100 receptors....I need to find those charts on receptor occupancy, but I belive it was about 80% for a full dose of ssri.........

 

so 80% of receptors are downregulated, I now have 20 5ht2a receptors and am functioning fine......(during taking the dose)

 

when i missed a dose and begun to get head zaps, or even before the zaps I can see from my reactions here that the brain sensed too little serotonin and upregulated (or grew NEW receptors) these are not the internalised receptors, but new ones, as happens in TD......so lets assume that 1% of receptors grow in response to each CT........

 

so I notice no difference as now Im functioning with 21 receptors, thats after 1 CT.......now here it could be the case that they downregulate to join the 80% so we can look at both possibilities, its of little importance anyway.....

 

so after 1 CT I have 21 5ht2a receptors, still way less than I had before citalopram and still functioning fine.....

 

after 40 CTs I have 60 5ht2a receptors, still below the norm so still functioning fine, as long as Im on my dose.....

 

after 50 (which is what I think I did) I now have 70 5ht2a receptors, and im STILL absolutely fine.....

 

I CT the drug for the last time, i have 70 functioning 5ht2a receptors, and everything is fine, thats within the normal range, below even which is great...im promoted at work to a high powered position, and I decide to have another baby,,,,,,,

 

at 4 months post CT I start to get dizzy and feel odd, YES I think, im pregnant.....hahahahaha yeah right

 

at 5 months post CT all hell breaks loose.......the upregulation happens.......now, all the receptors that have been internalised rebound......if you had stopped once, even CT and you have had a small upregulation due to the CT the 80 receptors rebound and you are left with either the 100 we started with, or perhaps slightly more, 101 or 102....not enough to cause hell, but people around this time may notice feeling out of sorts, but of course blame it on something else, it cant POSSIBLY have anything to do with the SSRI that I stopped months and months ago...

 

but in my case, I already have 71 receptors, becasue of the repeated CTs...now comes the rebound of a further 80....I now have 150 receptors.......and thats modest, I belive its a hell of alot more than 1%......but if it is inreality i dont have an extra 70 receptors, I have an extra 125,000.....so i now have 375,000 5ht2a receptors and not 250,000.......nice, very nice

 

im unable to handle the ssri and have an adverse reaction......although what I find interesting is this.....when i first had the adverse reaction and didnt know what was happening, I was on a anxiety forum, and a girl was going through the same thing.......she was on her 4th round of citalopram, and after stopping it through a drs taper at 5 months off she went into a major anxiety spell (tardive onset....upregulation) she re started citalopram and had a severe adverse reaction...she stayed with the drs, she wouldnt listen to me when I found out what was happeneing, and she allowed herself to be put on benzos and effexor.....a VERY high dose of effexor, like the top dose......she was very ill still for a year, but in the end the effexor worked and she now leads a reletavly normal life...she uses benzos prn i belive

 

i think this happened as sticking with the srni allowed downregulation to eventually happen......

 

but kindling, in my veiw, is the upregulation of 5ht2a receptors which makes no difference until rebound upregulation happens on stopping, this is why its safe to RI before the upregulation happens, I know that if I had RIed before upregualtion, it would have stopped the Upregulation from happening, and i wouldnt have gone into withdrawal......

 

thats my theory on kindling...and im pretty sure given my reactions to missing does now that its spot on

[Iggy131313]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10591400

 

receptor upregulation and kindling

[Iggy131313]

interesting

 

Serotonin increases cortisol release by stimulating 5-HT_1A and 5-HT_2A receptors in hippocampal areas (Nurnberger et al. 1990; Swann et al. 1992; Vieta et al. 1999).

 

yesterday was somewhat better than I expected at points, mainly though I think becasue again i was bouyed up thinking about a cure.....had a bit of weed in the eveing and couldnt tell if it made me worse...maybe it did...its so hard to tell, im not having any today and see if that helps

 

i have akathisia now, its that morning cortisol, but i dont think its the cortisol but the stimulation of 5ht2a thats causing the symptoms

 

i hate this life...i wish i was dead so much...I wish I had never been born..i wish it would stop, i want a normal life, a life, 3 damn years of hell, the only ''windows'' i have had are caused by something i have taken that made me better...i have never had a natural window, perhaps one day when my period is about to start which is my best few days, i might have an ok evening or something, but otherwise, NOTHING...

 

and people wonder why im looking for a treatment

[Iggy131313]

oh, i didnt say so the akathisia kicked in the evening as usual, and stayed, weed didnt help, red wine helped in the early evening (one glass) but then i didnt want to drink anymore later on....i didnt want that, i didnt want weed, i just didnt want to have severe akathisia.....but i did have it

 

day 5 of my cycel i think, or day 6...either way, a terrible time in the month for me

 

this morning ive woken with aka and some nausea too, sared of the day...terrified

[Martina23]

Iggy, you have your photo in your avatar, I think you are quite pretty. I am sorry we both are so much suffering. Have a nice day.

[Iggy131313]

thankyou martina, thats a nice thing to say......hang on in there

 

I have just come back from taking Freddie to school, chatted to 2 mums I know and felt fine, that always happens, its something in brain chemistry, endorphins or dopamine, or one causing the other

 

I had the singing cure again last night, boyfriend went out for an hour and i sat and sang my heart out with my guitar, as usual it took away all symptoms, endorphins, everything that raises endorphins takes the symptoms away...

 

i would excercise but sadly that also raises sertonin and causes mast cell degranulation releasing even MORE serotonin

 

Serotonin Levels

Endorphins decrease serotonin levels.

"Endorphin- and serotonine-metabolism are closely related, and opioid peptides can directly inhibit serotonine release. (23) Therefore, besides sleeplessness, opioid peptides can also cause depressions. In chronically depressed people, free endorphin level is 3 fold higher (24) (because part of endorphin receptors have been destroyed)"

 

the things that raise endorphins and therefore make me feel better are

 

1) singing

2) watching freddie play sport

3) alcohol??

4) pain

 

i thin there areothers, I looked at low dose naltrexone, but from anecdotal things I have read there seem to be some things that point to serotonin being elevated once it starts to work, people saying there dreams become vivid and crazy etc etc......so i wouldnt ris that, also I know Gianna had a severe SEVERE reaction to it, sadly as she was on a cocktail of drugs its uncertain which receptor system reacted to LDN but still....I dont think I would try it unless I knew there was no serotonin raising or upregulation involved and i have a feeling there is....

 

so onwards I go, and hoping today isnt as bad.....its hard to compare now to how I was at this time last month (in my cycle)

[Iggy131313]

I think that perhaps overall Im better than I was this time last month in my cycle, in one way and worse in others, the akathisia is more, and more often, but the other symptoms seem to be improved, I guess the receptors responsible for alot of the other symtoms are less sensitised (upregulated) however my 5ht2a which are the ones causing the akathisia are far more sensitised, I dont know...but im far more clear headed, I dont have the waves of panic, dread and fear (although I have aka which is a worse version i think)

 

bbut im not confused, or overheated, I dont have the severe overwhelm where I cant move or speak.....im suffering and desperate and in the worst torment, but im functioning with it

 

tonight I have a little boy coming over after school to play with freddie, I hope im ok...i will manage, i just hope its not with too much agony....damn this akathisia really damn it to hell, thats where it came from and thats where it belongs..im looking forward to making a small drop soon...well im aiming for 11th june to restart my taper, veeerrrrry slowly, Im gonna drop to 0.39 in june, 0.38 in july and 0.37 in august, then Im gonna hold for 6 months......and restart in march 2016...if I dont get a horrible upregulation reaction around that time I will do a 6 month taper from march to august where I will end up on 0.31....at this point I will hold for a year.....

 

so thats me for the next 2 years and still on the drug, but i cant move any faster...unless I get this drug i want to downregulate 5ht2a...in which case i will taper much faster....i would also consider updosing to maintain downregulation, but thats another story..i think coming off is the best way...but in a year from now I hope to be on 0.31 and in 2 years from now i will still be on 0.31 but at that point if I havent suffered a big upregulation reaction I will taper for 8 months and then hold....

 

getting off the drug will help me but according to the charts the dose im on still means 8% of receptors are downregulated.....now 8% of a normal amount is fine....but if I have WAY more receptors than normal (which I have) then 8% can be huge........well its not quite 8% its more like 7% slowly slowly, allowing upregulation to happen only at a rate i can cope with, and only when recetors have downregulated slowly and naturally (or forced to va the drug i want)

 

the sun is shining and im gonna try and do some cleaning and gardening, see if that helps (the gardening, the cleaning will rev me up)

[mammaP]

I was thinking about all the research that you and BTDT  have done and think you should start a blog or website to store it all. BTDT lost so much when topix was taken down it was heartbreaking after all that work.  Then PP went down and so much valuable info went with it. We know that Alto would never do that but anything is possible so I urge you to back up your findings so that it will not be lost if anything happens to SA!   

[Iggy131313]

thanks mammap, i will, I do have alot of it written down and alot in my head but your right, i often have to trawl through different sites and forums to find a study I was SURE i had....

 

and I want to say thankyou to btdt who has been so kind and helpful and to anyone who visits me on my thread and offers me a word of kindness, or support or encourages me in my research x

[LoveandLight]

This research is great..cannot understand though..but this is all greatly needed!

[Iggy131313]

thanks love and light......its taken me 3 years to start to grasp things...but its slowly coming together...im writing a paper on my theory at the moment

[Iggy131313]

seriously on the endorphin thing, I have to laugh at myself, I was thinking, how can I be in pain without injuring myself and risking needing antibiotics...I was thinking nipple clamps, hahaha, but no...really....no

[Iggy131313]

Muddles, sweetheart, you are not going to develop schizophrenia, neither are you martina....for the first year I heard voces, all the time, heard voices, people shouting my name...heard my thoughts as if someone was spekaing them...heard discordant piano music..I HEARD THOSE THINGS...i also had olfactory hallucinations, and visual hallucinations...they all stopped, havnt had them in a long time

[Muddles]

Thank god for that! I hear things when I'm falling to sleep and on weakening. My thoughts are so loud all of the time like I my sub concious mind is all that is there if that makes any sense. It's so tiring. Someone's just told me I'll get worse too. I can't cope with that!

[Iggy131313]

why would you get worse? I dont think so and im the bringer of doom!!!

 

worstenings happen at 5/6 months off the drug, you have gone past that...it should have been feb/march....

 

but your drug being mirt is  a bit different but i see ZERO reason why that would happen

 

do you want to call me? and talk#? i can give you my number

[bluebalu86]

Hi Iggy

 

Can you give me some tips about how you survived with all of these horrible symptoms? I can barely walk, can't function at all and lay in bed all the time. Feel so awful like I'm about to die. What should I do to survive this? I feel like I won't be able to.

[Iggy131313]

oh baby, I wish I had some tips.....how did/do i survive the worst...

 

I do what your doing, and wait for it to get better, the worst times ALWAYS get better, I promise you that....I would close my eyes and imagine my life in the future, me being happy and stable and well.....I would create stories in my head...I would pone others in withdrawal and scream and wail...I would phone my mother beg her to kill me and scream and scream then hang up on her for not doing it

 

I would beg on here, beg for someone to tell me it would stop

 

i would message and email anyone i could find who has survived this....and when things were less severe I would follow my instinct on what made me feel better.....attempting outings (sometimes successful, sometimes not) crying always helps, cry as often as you can, and KNOW this will end, it wont stay like this, I can promise you that.....I have read every account, no one stays like this...even me...and if you read my whole thread and more on IAWP I have been through so much, just so much

 

all you need to do is hang on, just hang on and wait...and eventually in tiny increments, it will lessen, you can call one of the withdrawal charitys on the UK.....battle against tranquillisers are really good and will give you phone support

 

im so sorry its so hard, it wont stay like this xxxxxx

[LoveandLight]

Iggy can you not recieve pm?

[Muddles]

I would like to talk.

[Iggy131313]

Muddles darling, I have PMed you my number.....call me tomorrow day time, ill also charge my landline so we can talk cheaply.....Im sure you know that my name is caroline, you call me tomorrow, dont be shy, we can have a long talk, it can really help x

[Muddles]

Thanks hun...will do. x

[Iggy131313]

so yesterday...I coped, had a friend of freds over, akathisia was there in the background but I was able to control it with thoughts...when its weak like that im able to think about how we are closer to a cure than ever before....that if we can start to understand the mechanism we are on the way to solving the mystery,,,,that helped

 

then the parents of the kid came and I had a aglass of wine with them...as always NEW company can stop the symptoms, its a weird one, if im with someone i know very well, soeone whos company i am used to it doesnt help...but someone NEW comes in to the equation and the brain chemistry changes.....that happened last night

 

so at 9pm I had a puff.....what a stupid time to do that, I take my dose at 9pm and its also when serotonin can start to peak...of course the aka got bad then but I dont know what it was.....and I ate too, so it wasnt clever...

 

had a bath and went in the bedroom....another weird one as I KNEW when i left the bedroom it would get worse, I wanted to lay on the bed, where the aka would be controlled in a quiet place, but i went downstairs to boyfriend, took my book and sat on the chair, aka got worse, this wasnt becasue i thought it would i KNEW it would as even the THOUGHT of being in the living room kicked it off

 

so I went back upstairs, it was too late by then but it came down a little and I read for 10 minutes but then forced myself to sleep, shaking my legs and rocking my body as usual

 

I woke up a few times in the night, with that awful hell akathisia and terror running through my vains, poor freddie fell out of bed and the dog was barking, dealing with those things while combatting the awful sensations is no fun

 

woke at 7.30 for school run this morning with the usual terror...sat and smoked...tried to reasuure myself of what it is...its a reveation that 5ht2a is stimulated in cortisol release, i told myself i understood what was happening and that it would pass soon.......got up and got fred ready for school, did the school run and chatted to some mums as usual

 

and now im home, the nausea is here, and estrogen is on the rise so no surprises there..but again, probably better that this time last cycle....but its going to get worse and worse over this next week...this is always my worst week....ad coming up to the time in my cycle where I was totally bed ridden again

 

no weed today, see if i still get bad with the aka at night..i mean all the way through this I have still had aka but not every day and not as severe..but the upregulation from the ibuprophen has made everything more intense..but again, the lsd spacey stuff I havent had for a while, but the sickness is back and the aka at night is out of this world bad

 

i continue to research the serotonin system as a whole.......I came across a study done by a centre in america dedicated to serotnin related diseases....i wonder if we contacted them that they ould help us

 

what annoys me, and also gives me hope is that it would be more than possible to check the receptor densitys in all of us....by using assays...receptor density assays...they could measure the receptors of each kind in the brain...5ht1a, 5ht2a,5ht2c all the ones that matter....also d1, d2, d3.....this is possible using binding lingands......sometimes when I lay down and try to visualise being cured as a kind of meditation, I imagine how easily in the future this problem would be fixed.....

 

so on the agenda today is more research, some cleaning, picking up my son and taking him back to football, a promise of a level of pirates of the carrabian on the xbox and he wants my boyfriend to attack me so he can defend me.....good day for Freddie, little angel

 

and while all this is going on I will talk positivly to myself, I will remind myself I am now is my rising estrogen week and hold out hope that this time next cycle more downregulation would have happened in response to my dose stability and I can start to plan a tiny taper which will help me....

[Iggy131313]

So the research continues, Im making a start on my paper properly and need case studies......if anyone would like to take part and be a case study that would be great, obviously you will be annoymous.....im particularly interested in people who had onset after months off the drug...

 

as far as I can see ''withdrawal syndrome'' is not one big syndrome......its split into 2 (quite likely far more) but from what Im seeing 2 main categories....

 

1) 5ht1a desensitisation......symptoms can include but are not limited to....severe anhedonia and loss of emotions, pssd, lack of ability in decision making, cognitive problems..

 

the onset of this set of symtpoms usually occurs while taking the drug, and worstens on discontinuation.........there can be a trigger including severe external stressors that lead to the onset....

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21976495

 

the ultimate desensitisation or downregulation of 5ht1a autoreceptors leads to disinhibbited serotonin flooding the brain, and inhibiting dopamine...it seems that in the case of anhedonia the part of the brain that dopamine is being inhibited is the dorsal anterior cingulate cortex......

 

http://www.nih.gov/news/health/oct2014/nimh-17.htm

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC117593/

 

 

again, anything that raises serotonin on the post synaptic receptors will worsten the emotional blunting

 

the reason things get worse when the drug is discontinued is that ssri's (and the other drugs that hit 5ht1a) act as agonists or partial agonists at 5ht1a....when they are discontinued that agonism stops, therefore symtpoms increase.

 

the drugs that seem to be the most common in causing thhis set of symtpoms are

 

PROZAC

PAXIL

MIRTAZAPINE

LEXAPRO

ZOLOFT

BUPROPION

 

All of these drugs have potent action as an agonist at 5ht1a...causing downregulation.......

 

I have seen natural reoveries from this.....I have seen people at 10 years off suddenly start to have windows, but it does appear (and thanks btdt for that information) that 5ht1a autoreceptors dont have the capacity to rebound as fast as other receptors......im not saying it doesnt happen, it quite obviously DOES

 

ive seen people use buspar, cannabis, trazadone and other 5ht1a partial agonnists to try and counter the effects...some find complete relief....others make themselves far worse by downregulating further......its incredibly risky

 

the cure would be to find a way to UPREGULATE 5ht1a PRE SYNAPTIC receptors......ive found studies saying the st johns W upregulates 5ht1a but it seems that is only post synaptic, which would make the issue worse, not better......would 5ht1a antagonism work? Im not sure, it figures that using the brains feedback loop by denying activation at the 5ht1a sites would cause upregulation but i havent looked deeper into this as yet

 

 

The second set of symptoms (and the ones I suffer from) mechanism of action seems to be

 

 

2) Upregulation of 5ht2a 5ht2c and 5ht3......symptoms include....akathisia, terror, anxiety, panic, dp/dr, heart issues, vision changes (retinal distrubances floaters, bruxism, hormonal changes (lactating etc), PGAD, visual, auditory and olfactory hallucinations, dystonia, myoclonic jerks, vivid dreams, loss of sleep, ocd.......and we go on and on

 

the onset of symtpoms in this case is usually delayed.....often by an average of 5 months with sufferers experiencing no symptoms or mild symptoms up until that point......indicative of upregulation (i have posted several studies on this in relation to TD)

 

several parts of the brain are here inhibited by activation of 5ht2a/and 2c from the midbrain to the striatum...in particular the VENTRAL TEGMENTAL area......all as a result of hyperactivation at those post synaptic 5ht2 receptor subtypes

 

There are several drugs that have no affinity for the  D₂ receptor, but do cause akathisia. The most well known are the SSRIs. It has been suggested that SSRIs induce akathisia (and parkinsonism) by indirectly stimulating serotonin (5-HT)_2A receptors, which results in inhibition of DA release.^1,11 This is in line with the hypothesis that atypical antipsychotics give rise to less akathisia than classical drugs by blocking these serotonin 5-HT_2A receptors.^1,11,13

 

it has been found that chronic mdma (ecstacy) users have upregualted 5ht2a

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11850153

 

also that PTSD sufferers have upregulated 5ht2a

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lDD5WWzAJ5EC&pg=PA426&lpg=PA426&dq=ptsd+upregulated+5ht2a&source=bl&ots=lzRtIJQns6&sig=Yx39BenvRbMvUQB6QAo7MMhrOTk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AUw6VeSMM83uaojqgLAP&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=ptsd%20upregulated%205ht2a&f=false

 

and from my own experinces of cannabis enduced upregulation of 5ht2a I can assure you, its relevant

 

once again, as the drug is stopped, receptors upregulate and symptoms begin.....

 

anything that raises serotonin will worsten the symtpoms and things that reduce serotonin will mitigate the symtpoms, but serotonin levels are most likely normal...its the density of the receptors that is too many (THATS WHAT SENSITISATION IS) and that why you can go onto ANY anxiety forum, go to the drugs section and see hundreds of people saying...I had no start up effects last time, why do I have them now....this is becasue these people, once exposed to an ssri have already upregulated 5HT2A/2C and are reacting more to the re introduction of the drug....the more one goes on and off, the higher the number of these excitory receptors.....kindling, as I explained a few posts ago........##

 

now, basically all the drugs act on these receptors......some more towards 5ht2c (prozac) and others more 5ht2a (celexa) but nearly all will cause downregulation.....DOWNREGULATION is good....its the upregulation we need to worry about#

 

so we are looking at

 

PROZAC

CELEXA

PAXIL

ZOLOFT

EFFEXOR

CYMBALTA

LEXAPRO

MIRTAZIPINE (although this downregulates 5ht2a and c it does so vis functional selectivity t being an antagonist and not an agonist, still the end result is the same)

TCAs

 

im not sure about gabapentin/lyrica as I havent been able to look deeper into the mechanism of action as yet

 

again, I have seen many natural recoveries, without something to force these receptors down, its going to take a looong time for things to settle and i dont belive it will ever go back to pre ssri levels (if one is very kindled, im not speaking for a milder withdrawal) but even in the worst cases I have seen and I have communicated and still speak to people 10 years off who have symtpoms, every single case improves and continues to do so at 10 years off......healing really does never stop...although I would call it downregulation not healing

 

 

THERE IS NO TREATMENT FOR THIS....HERE I SPECULATE ON WHAT COULD WORK IN THEORY.....I BEG NO ONE TO TRY...BUT I WELCOME SUGGESTIONS AND ADDITIONS TO THIS RESEARCH

 

the treatment for this would be a 5ht2a/c antagonist...via functional selectivity.......an agonist would cause an adverse reaction and severe suffering...an antagonist would blcok the receptors giving instant relief and would help long term by downregulation (god bless functional selectivity)

 

this is why people have found relief from APs....via the 5ht2a blocking, but APs are not the answer for ANYTHING........mirtazapine carrys a huge risk of desensitisation of 5ht1a casuing the symptoms in (1)

 

so we are left with needing a specific 5ht2a/c antagonist....from my researh there are 2 options Ritanserin and Ketanserin....Ritanserin being the most viable as it acts only on 5ht2a/c

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1349760

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritanserin

 

I have copywrited all this research.......please feel free to give me feedback

[ladybug]

Iggy, I noticed you mentioned that your worst time is usually during and after your period. I am intrigued as I have a similar experience. My worst days seem to be day 5-16 of my cycle. For some reason, once I start ovulating the cloud suddenly lifts and this lasts until about day 21-23 of my cycle when the PMS kicks. However, the time after my period is MUCH worse than what I experience during PMS. I get fatigue, depression, heightened anxiety, sleep disturbances and stomach issues. I haven't been able to find out what happens to our hormones during this period that might explain these symptoms. Have you found anything in your research that might shed some light on this? It seems most women have the opposite experience.

[Iggy131313]

Hi Ladybug, thanks for stopping by....

 

most women not in withdrawal have the opposite experience hon, the key is estrogen...estrogen starts to rise around day 3 of menstruation and continues until ovulation...google ''hormones during menstrual cycle'' and you will see estrogen starts to rise sharply around day 3/4 ...

 

estrogen acts like an ssri increasing serotonin and inhibiting its reuptake....http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12794307

 

my best days as when alot of women experience PMS (pms is low serotonin....once again showing that serootnin makes us far far worse.....not becasue the levels are too high or too low, but becasue the recepter density is too many).....culminating in my best time being the few days before my period starts...ive seen many many women in withdrawal say the same...christiana, lmac, myself, ive forgotten the user names of others as I speak to them personally and dont want to use there real names without permission..

 

so when our period kicks in, on day one estrogen is at an all time low its not too bad...but as estrogen starts to rise it gets worse and worse and worse as serotonin is raised and also the reuptake is inhibited...its basically like having an ssri at a low dose....

 

I have always experinced this and have always known that estrogen does this as I have a male friend who was a body builder and he has severe akathisia (oxygenman from pp) we speak everyday and he knows about hormones......however theres no answer for it......as progesterone also raises serotonin but not to the same extent....

 

hope that helps a little my friend......

 

lots of love from

 

miss bloomin know it all haha xx

[Iggy131313]

Im greatly worried, what im upset about is I realised last night that my boyfriend no longer takes away my symptoms

 

Ive always had the thing where for some reason NEW company takes the symptoms away, it doesnt work with someone im used to...its chemical, but i dont know why

 

so I spent some time speaking with Muddles on the phone in the morning (that was lovely muddles, your a beautiful girl and your going to heal) and then reacted to that...ive had the exact same reaction many times before.....if I get over excited about something (i was very animated and passionate was i not hon? lol) so the over excitement sent me into a dizzy whoozy stoned type feeling....kind of mania with saceynessness....ive had it severeal times when i become over excited or really busy or very passionate about something......i spent the rest of the day researching.....

 

went to pick fred up from school and could feel the akathisia building, a friend asked if freddie wanted to go to hers for tea and i agreed, i went over there for an hour to settle him in and have a chat....i was feeling so bad, the aka and terror were building and making me suffer (4pm, always gonna happen)

 

i left there and came home trying to tell myself im in my worst week etc etc, it will settle down, we might have answers soon blah blah blah

 

got home and called a friend who is 11 years off, he is still quite severe and was as bad as me, he is one of my main supports in this and a beautiful man...we spoke for about 2 hours and during that time i felt a little better

 

the aka was there but i was keeping it at bay as much as possible, the nausea was SO bad....and i reminded myself that meant that its not only that the upregulation has not settled yet from the reaction but also that the estrogen is acting more at all those 5ht sites...

 

had a bath and begged boyfriend to take me out, if i stayed in the aka would be worse, i knew that...so he agreed and we went and sat outside a local tapas bar

 

the aka was bad, i wasnt able to fully distract or escape from it, we ordered some wine and i sat and pretended to be ok listening to him talk about his day at work....he deserves that.....

 

after an hour 2 men sat on the table and i started up a conversation with them.....we sent the night from then with these guys having a great laugh, they were taking the p*** outof me which i enjoy greatly and all the symptoms stopped for a couple of hours....i was drunk on wine and lemonchello

 

on gettin home i could feel the aka of course, i tried a puff on a joint and it got a bit worse, but i couldnt say for sure it was that....half an our later i had another and this time i COULD say for sure it was that...so no more for a few days, maybe a week

 

i went to bed and fell asleep straight away, however did have wakings during the night with aka and terror as usual

 

I had a nightmare about my ex in laws phoning david healy and laughing with him....it was nasty, then i awoke with the knowledge that my boyfriend no longer stops the symptoms, this is very upsetting, it was always going to happen at some point but i love him and i need the symptoms to stop before they destroy what life i had managed to make

 

so right now im sat in bed smoking (fire risk lol) in half an hour i am going to collect my baby boy from his friends and take him to a kids party....my ex husband then will collect him as its his weekend......

 

i can feel the aka right now, and i found it interesting that serotonin and cortisol are related, i knew there was something there......

 

god knows how im gonna cope over this next week...its not day 7 of my cycle and the next 7-10 days will be my worst which is bad as its already been so hard...

 

looking back to last ycle in this setback days 9 and 10 i was bedridden and after that it was extreme too.....this is bad and im scared

 

hopefully it wont be as bad soon i just need this dose to redownregulate that upregulation that happened..if only i hadnt missed a dose...if only

[Iggy131313]

I was talking to a mum the other day about my sympotms, she said if she takes cold medicines etc (raises serotonin) she goes in her words ''insame'' with anxiety loos of slseep etc

 

this peaked my interest, I asked her if she had ever been on an ssri, she said no, so I asked if she took alot of ecstacy when she was younger, which she did

 

look at this study

 

http://www.maps.org/images/pdf/2002_reneman_2.pdf

 

look at the diagrams at the bottom, see the upregulation in EX users of mdma which act on the same system? THIS IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO US...WE HAVE CHRONICALLY UPREGULATED 5HT2A/C RECEPTORS....IT ACTS ON THE SAME SYSTEM

 

I wish a dr would do an assay, this could be tested..this could be SHOWN

[Muddles]

Thanks for listening to me yesterday. Lovely to speak to you.

 

Looks like you're going to have to trade the boyfriend in then!

 

I had an adverse reaction to a cold/flu medicine whilst on mirtazapine - it sent me absolutely nuts and lasted a while.

[ladybug]

Thanks for the info, Iggy!

 

I am also unable to take cold/flu medicines and also antihistamines. I know diphenhydramine was the precursor to Prozac so I suppose it makes sense. Any time I take Benadryl I get very sensitive and begin to "feel" noises and get electric zaps in my body from them. I also get myoclonic jerks from it as well. So on the rare occasion I get an allergic reaction I have to suffer through it. I began reacting this way to Benadryl even while on a full dose, before I began tapering, it's just gotten worse as I taper. Strange that others in WD seem to be able to take it with no issue.