Wolfhound Posted March 14, 2014 Author Share Posted March 14, 2014 Hi Wolfhound, just wanted to stop by and say hello... Hello Rhi, that is really very nice of you!! Thank you and hello to you! Put on trazadone for 8 weeks. Psychic akathisia started on 100 mg. Not a single doctor believed me telling me it is all anxiety in my head. Terrible suicidal urges. Got voluntary hospitalised. Acknoledged adverse reaction, put me off cold turkey. Instalated mirtazapine to block the reaction of trazadone. 5 weeks on mirtazapine.acathisia worsened, suicidal, homicidal urges. Nobody believed. Finally they stopped mirtazapine cold turkey. My heighest dose of trazadone was 200 mg, of mirtazapine 30 mg. Since the c/t, suicidal, acathisia continuing. tried promethazine for sleep. Tried atarax. Currently taking klonopin for 10 days. Good for sleep, but my condition worsening. Unable to tell if it is klonopin or a bad wave. In the former hospital i took twice gabapentin. It should be all my medication. i was offered promethazin for sleep 25 mg and also small amount of quetiapine. Both are antipsychotics, even if ptomethszin very weak. Terribly afraid. Link to comment
flower Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 W, Can't tolerate these drugs either.4 years of being ill and trying to tolerate these drugs has changed who I am.It has come to my Doctor discontinuing both drugs, a choice we both made, I also am having a rough patch but we have to survive.I've tried to taper. now we wait. Thinking of you flower. C/T Celexa and Trazadone on Jan.29th 2014 Prescribed 1mg of Klonopin every 6 hours on Jan.29th Began tapering Klonopin April 18th..stretching time between doses...at first one hour for 2 weeks then a half hour for app.10 days then another half hour 10days later. Presently at .25 three times a day..6 2 and 10pm. Trying to stabilize. Also still taking gabapentin 300mgs 2xs a day.. Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus mammaP Posted March 17, 2014 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 17, 2014 Hi Wolfhound, I'm trying to catch up and checking in to see how you are. I hope that you are feeling some improvement, however small. You are doing great and I'm proud of you for keeping going and getting through each day. **I am not a medical professional, if in doubt please consult a doctor with withdrawal knowledge. Different drugs occasionally (mostly benzos) 1976 - 1981 (no problem) 1993 - 2002 in and out of hospital. every type of drug + ECT. Staring with seroxat 2002 effexor. Tapered March 2012 to March 2013, ending with 5 beads. Withdrawal April 2013 . Reinstated 5 beads reduced to 4 beads May 2013 Restarted taper Nov 2013 OFF EFFEXOR Feb 2015 Tapered atenolol and omeprazole Dec 2013 - May 2014 Tapering tramadol, Feb 2015 100mg , March 2015 50mg July 2017 30mg. May 15 2018 25mg Taking fish oil, magnesium, B12, folic acid, bilberry eyebright for eye pressure. My story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4199-hello-mammap-checking-in/page-33 Lesson learned, slow down taper at lower doses. Taper no more than 10% of CURRENT dose if possible Link to comment
btdt Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 There's a big fad in psychiatry now having to do with blaming P450 liver enzymes for drug intolerance. But there can be many reasons for drug intolerance. However, if you are lacking in specific P450 liver enzymes, while that might be physiologically normal, you can be in big trouble taking psychiatric drugs and some other drugs, too. It has crossed my mind that if we had an issue with this we would it not be a problem noticed before we became adults... I for one think these drugs may cause damage to the liver and further reactions are because of the damage. It is just a thought and no I can't prove it but I can't prove anything else either. WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
Wolfhound Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Btdt, I think it could be my case. I was a healthy child, I had my first antibiotics 6 months ago when all this hell started. So I think I can have some problems with genetic family of CYP450....of course, I did not go for the tests so I do not know it for sure. And of course, the problem can be elsewhere. I have wanted to write more today, but don´t feel like it. Maybe tomorrow. Put on trazadone for 8 weeks. Psychic akathisia started on 100 mg. Not a single doctor believed me telling me it is all anxiety in my head. Terrible suicidal urges. Got voluntary hospitalised. Acknoledged adverse reaction, put me off cold turkey. Instalated mirtazapine to block the reaction of trazadone. 5 weeks on mirtazapine.acathisia worsened, suicidal, homicidal urges. Nobody believed. Finally they stopped mirtazapine cold turkey. My heighest dose of trazadone was 200 mg, of mirtazapine 30 mg. Since the c/t, suicidal, acathisia continuing. tried promethazine for sleep. Tried atarax. Currently taking klonopin for 10 days. Good for sleep, but my condition worsening. Unable to tell if it is klonopin or a bad wave. In the former hospital i took twice gabapentin. It should be all my medication. i was offered promethazin for sleep 25 mg and also small amount of quetiapine. Both are antipsychotics, even if ptomethszin very weak. Terribly afraid. Link to comment
mattinsmom Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Just a stop in to say hello and that I am thinking of you. Current: Lorazapam: 2mg: 4/9/15: 2mg - 1.5mg: already sick/nothing noticed. No changes in sleep noted after illness. Lamictal: 7/27/13 - 8/6/13: 400mg - 500mg(dr order) mouth sores, headache, cognitive/balance, heart palp...8/7/13 - 8/23/13: 500mg - 400mg; symptoms↓...10/10/13: 350mg; fever/flu-like <2-weeks...12/30/13: 325mg; fever/flu-like symptoms <1-week...2/10/17: 300mg; no significant changes noted. Discontinued: Omeprazole: 09/2103 40mg...5/1/14: 20mg... 8/21/14 = 0 Wellbutrin: 11/22/13: 300mg – 225mg...12/6/13 delayed reaction- mood swings, weight↓, heart palp/chest pain, alerting...12/14/13: 187mg; physical symptoms↓, neuro emotions ↑, weight stable...12/20/13: 225mg; physical symptoms return, emotions stable <1-week, weight↓...4/21/14: 187mg; weight↑...5/17/14 (neurologist ordered discontinue asap):168mg; headache, mood swings, ↑weight, sleep flux...5/24/14: 150mg; headache, mood swings, ↓cognitive/balance...6/2/14: 112mg; see above, weight stable, <3-weeks... 6/28/14: 100mg; moody...7/25/14: 87.5mg; family troubles... 8/4/14: 75mg; headaches; moody... 8/9/14: 50mg headaches... 8/12/14: 37.5mg; 8/17/14: 25mg...8/26/14 = 0 Hydroxyzine; 10mg: 5/20/15 *prn 4/5 times then dc'd. Mood changes/rage Buspirone: 7.5mg: 5/20/15 *prn 4/5 times then dc'd. No changes. Link to comment
EternalOptimist Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Wolfhound, hi. I thought I'd just write to say I was tested and found out to have lacking the glutathione pathway and supposedly my detox pathways are blocked and liver doesn't detox well. How to unblock these pathways? Can it be done? Might be genetic. Can't attest to any of this but seems like a plausible explanation to my difficulty with meds, which I never wanted in the first place but ended up on a few nevertheless. Thinking of you and wishing all the best. EO 1989-2004 low doze Xanax nightly. 2004 w/d in hospital c/t with 3 other meds, (trazadone, phenobarbital, risperdal) Tapered off those meds in 7 months. 2010- bad anxiety so tried Valium and klonopin, back to hospital, came home on nothing, got much better. 12-23-2013- hospital for anxiety, depression,insomnia...used low dose lamictal 12 days with mitrazapine. Came home on 15 mg mitrazapine, down to c. 10 mg mitrazapine in c. 3weeks, 7.5 mg in 32 days.. Tapered off mitrazapine March 6, 2014. Took .75 mg April 20 and 1.05 mg April 21st. Ended taper March 6, 2014. Take supplements tho not all daily: fish oil, Vit. C., Vit. D, cal/mag, little multi, mag at night, Been taking homeopathic remedy since June, 2014 via a Homeopathic M.D. (Trained in psychiatry). 1-12, 2018 put on 60 mg cymbalta; 150 lyrica for anxiety and 50 mg trazadone. Tapered of trazadone after 3 months on it and tapered off of lyrica in about 9 months. As of March, 2019, only on 60 mg cymbalta. Link to comment
btdt Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Thanks for sharing if you find any treatment that works please post. Knowing what is wrong is a start to knowing how to repair it... always what I think. Could you tell me the name of the test please? What type of doctor ordered it? Thanks WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
btdt Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Btdt, I think it could be my case. I was a healthy child, I had my first antibiotics 6 months ago when all this hell started. So I think I can have some problems with genetic family of CYP450....of course, I did not go for the tests so I do not know it for sure. And of course, the problem can be elsewhere. I have wanted to write more today, but don´t feel like it. Maybe tomorrow. Wow you have been blessed no antibiotics you entire life I can't even imagine that. I know your not feeling blessed at this time in your life but a good long time with no drugs in you body is seen as a blessing by me I too was healthy as could be tho I did take a few antibiotics as a child for chest - throat infections that was all I ever had wrong with me. We were both lucky to have blessed childhoods I hope we both can draw on the strength of all those years healthy to get over the bad times we have to face. Peace to you... write when you want... no pressure you sure don't need any more pressure WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
EternalOptimist Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Thanks for sharing if you find any treatment that works please post. Knowing what is wrong is a start to knowing how to repair it... always what I think. Could you tell me the name of the test please? What type of doctor ordered it? Thanks Btdt...were these questions addressed to me? 1989-2004 low doze Xanax nightly. 2004 w/d in hospital c/t with 3 other meds, (trazadone, phenobarbital, risperdal) Tapered off those meds in 7 months. 2010- bad anxiety so tried Valium and klonopin, back to hospital, came home on nothing, got much better. 12-23-2013- hospital for anxiety, depression,insomnia...used low dose lamictal 12 days with mitrazapine. Came home on 15 mg mitrazapine, down to c. 10 mg mitrazapine in c. 3weeks, 7.5 mg in 32 days.. Tapered off mitrazapine March 6, 2014. Took .75 mg April 20 and 1.05 mg April 21st. Ended taper March 6, 2014. Take supplements tho not all daily: fish oil, Vit. C., Vit. D, cal/mag, little multi, mag at night, Been taking homeopathic remedy since June, 2014 via a Homeopathic M.D. (Trained in psychiatry). 1-12, 2018 put on 60 mg cymbalta; 150 lyrica for anxiety and 50 mg trazadone. Tapered of trazadone after 3 months on it and tapered off of lyrica in about 9 months. As of March, 2019, only on 60 mg cymbalta. Link to comment
btdt Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Wolfhound, hi. I thought I'd just write to say I was tested and found out to have lacking the glutathione pathway and supposedly my detox pathways are blocked and liver doesn't detox well. How to unblock these pathways? Can it be done? Might be genetic. Can't attest to any of this but seems like a plausible explanation to my difficulty with meds, which I never wanted in the first place but ended up on a few nevertheless. Thinking of you and wishing all the best. EO yes those questions were for you sorry should have quoted. WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
Wolfhound Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Well, I decided to update a little bit. After two horrible hours full of anxiety, suicidality and stomachache I feel a little bit calmer if I can say so. Unfortunately, things have gotten worse last 4 days. A window and wave pattern? If so, where are my windows, haven´t felt like being in a window before....Definitely a change in symptoms but a change that makes me more desperate because the older symptoms are still here, all the suicidal, negative, depressive, intrusive thoughts and images in my head...I am 3 and a half months off. Two days ago I felt a wave of akathisia once more, I haven´t had it for some time and bang! felt like jumping out of my skin again. So my old psychological symptoms are still here and plus I got some joint pain especially in the right half of my body, pressure in my head frome time to time especially in the right half of my head, ongoing tinnitus, ongoing muscle cramps and today I got stomachache after eating my husband´s pizza. I just feel it is a real never ending story. I still cannot get how is it possible that my body and brain are so damaged after being exposed to the drugs for a very limited period of time comparing it to the majority of fellow sufferers here. I struggle so much with acceptance. I keep asking myself about the reasons of all this, why me, I am so bitter about my experience, I am so bitter about the doctors I met when all this began. I am so bitter about myself! I should have recognised it at the beginning and not being like a stupid sheep. I feel so bitter about all this situation I am so afraid about my children. How is it going to affect their childhood, their upbringing, their behaviour? How on earth did I let it happen? I am destroying their lives. I am destroying my relationship. I have known my partner for more than 20 years now and I know I can count on him but how long? How long will he be able to live with such a disabled person? Years? Really? How will I be able to stay at home with three children by myself when I am having problems to prepare them something to eat trembling from suicidality and anxiety? I used to love cooking and preparing healthy food, I used to bake my own home made bread and now I simply can´t. I used to help my parents with a lot of things my father is turning 90 in two months and I cannot help him now I feel so desperate about it I am young I should be here for him he had such a demanding life. And when I look at my symptoms I do not see anything better. I am off the drugs for more time than I was actually on them and nothing. I feel like someone who took the drugs for 3 years, has been 4 years drug free and felt no change. That´s why I am so low these days. I cannot stop crying I should not have written this, sorry. Put on trazadone for 8 weeks. Psychic akathisia started on 100 mg. Not a single doctor believed me telling me it is all anxiety in my head. Terrible suicidal urges. Got voluntary hospitalised. Acknoledged adverse reaction, put me off cold turkey. Instalated mirtazapine to block the reaction of trazadone. 5 weeks on mirtazapine.acathisia worsened, suicidal, homicidal urges. Nobody believed. Finally they stopped mirtazapine cold turkey. My heighest dose of trazadone was 200 mg, of mirtazapine 30 mg. Since the c/t, suicidal, acathisia continuing. tried promethazine for sleep. Tried atarax. Currently taking klonopin for 10 days. Good for sleep, but my condition worsening. Unable to tell if it is klonopin or a bad wave. In the former hospital i took twice gabapentin. It should be all my medication. i was offered promethazin for sleep 25 mg and also small amount of quetiapine. Both are antipsychotics, even if ptomethszin very weak. Terribly afraid. Link to comment
EternalOptimist Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Btdt: I don't remember the test but when feel better, will try to look it up in my records. My doc believes in blocked pathways, a more holistic view I think. I did spit test for 23andme twice but they couldn't get a sample . Maybe try? Can't vouch for validity but My ND ordered it. WH: I am so sorry for your suffering. Recovery takes so long but it does get better. Time is on our side but we have to do it, argh. So not easy. Hang in there if you can. 1989-2004 low doze Xanax nightly. 2004 w/d in hospital c/t with 3 other meds, (trazadone, phenobarbital, risperdal) Tapered off those meds in 7 months. 2010- bad anxiety so tried Valium and klonopin, back to hospital, came home on nothing, got much better. 12-23-2013- hospital for anxiety, depression,insomnia...used low dose lamictal 12 days with mitrazapine. Came home on 15 mg mitrazapine, down to c. 10 mg mitrazapine in c. 3weeks, 7.5 mg in 32 days.. Tapered off mitrazapine March 6, 2014. Took .75 mg April 20 and 1.05 mg April 21st. Ended taper March 6, 2014. Take supplements tho not all daily: fish oil, Vit. C., Vit. D, cal/mag, little multi, mag at night, Been taking homeopathic remedy since June, 2014 via a Homeopathic M.D. (Trained in psychiatry). 1-12, 2018 put on 60 mg cymbalta; 150 lyrica for anxiety and 50 mg trazadone. Tapered of trazadone after 3 months on it and tapered off of lyrica in about 9 months. As of March, 2019, only on 60 mg cymbalta. Link to comment
btdt Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Wolfhound that is how it goes in the beginning all of withdrawal I had a long effect from 2 wks of prozac. There are for sure some questions we cannot answer I wish we could I have been looking for the answers a long long time. Unfortunately I am not brilliant and do not have a gang of researchers behind me. Maybe someday we will but for now it just is not there. It is ok to write what you feeling that is one of the reasons this place exists. Tho you say your not having any windows and waves they do not present the same in this early stage as they do later... it is not a completely gone completely back thing in the beginning having one major symptom be gone could be all the window you get. Such as reduction in akathisia that returns later. I know when it come to akathisia nobody wants to hear it is ever coming back but I will not lie to you that helps nothing. It can come and go and yes I think this is the beginning of the set up for windows and waves which will become more apparent later on. I know when I was in hard withdrawal and found my first bit of information at 8 months I thought a lot about this window and wave thing mind you I had already spent 6 of the previous 8 months mostly in bed.... I could see some improvement. I had been certain before I found that site that I was waiting to die that on one of my trips to emerg they would figure out what was wrong with me and soon after I would be dead... I really believer it. Then I found all this stuff about withdrawal. I could not see windows and waves when I was in early withdrawal not like other people speak of as symptoms leaving and coming back... but there were changes in symptoms like the akathisia would come and go.. getting a bit better or shorter lasting each time... eventually it stayed gone... This twists and turns I can't think of a better way of expressing it than the rubic cube somebody else called it.. this healing pattern... it is all over the map and teaches up how our bodies actually heal from this.. as no doctor will be able to tell you or help you.. that is my experience anyway...they did not know how to help but some how my body knew how to fix itself. I am not saying it is easy I know it is not and all those fears you have are all valid some of them are a bit to the extreme I don't think you kids will be wrecked other people's weren't ... but I get it. I think all of us have had those fears and some worse. I think it is normal to think these things and once in awhile to indulge yourself and express them... often getting it out will allow a conversation about an issue or at least take some of the pressure off. When it comes right down to it I think having the akathisia come back would freak anybody out it did me... I held on till it passed I never wanted it again but it came again.. there are a few things like this that are the worst of the worst... they will eventually end. Mine did. Mind you if it were to come back this minute I would not freak out as bad as I have in the past as I know it will not last forever... i would be pissed sure as it is suppose to be done by now... but I know I could deal with it because I have before.. that kind of confidence comes with experience. It will pass again... and every time it comes back you will be better able to deal with it next time then it will be gone. When these worst of the worst things end there will be other things that come and go... i don't know maybe some of us have to go thru this first part before windows and waves because for me this came later in the process. WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
btdt Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 When akathisia hits we tend to freak out and all the fear comes back fear of everything this is I think normal and we get down too thinking it will not end but it does that is the most important thing I can say to you it ends. If food is starting to be an issue for you be careful what you eat. When I said symptoms change well food is one of the things on the old rubics cube... food sensitivities... could be the next thing... there are many. Hang in there you can do this. WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG Had a car accident in 85 Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89 Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above. One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking. As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/ There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in Link to comment
Nikki Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 WH....right now you are in a low mood, a bad space, and when this happens all we tend to do is think negative thoughts which you are having. The thoughts are like 'static'. Is there anyway you can tell yourself that in these low phases your thoughts go places they would not ordinarily go? When you are feeling better the disturbing thoughts tend to ease up, don't they? Sometimes I have found it helpful to be a little tough on myself by saying to myself. "Stop, thinking like this isn't helping, move on to something else to think about." The genetic factors may be something you have, but think of all the people on this site and many other sites who are going thru hell and not all of us have a genetic predisposition to AD's. The AD's cause problems regardless. Please don't think you are flawed somehow...... When having some negative thoughts can you get out a pen and some paper and just start journaling whatever it is you are thinking and feeling. It may help lift some of the mental weight. I find it helpful. Whatever you do please do not blame yourself which you already did. You and the rest of us trusted the doctors we saw. You had no way of knowing this would happen. As time progresses and you start to feel better your partner will see the change too and it will bring relief to the both of you and the children. Children are very understanding and compassionate. You were hurt by the meds and most of all the Cold Turkey from them. While you are on this site, read the posts from people who are recovering and doing well. This will give you some hope. Above all Believe you will be healed. Make a decision today that you will and are recovering. Set the intention. You are such a sweet person. You have friends here who are very willing to help you out and listen to you. Lots of Hugs Intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1902-nikki-hi-my-rundown-with-ads/ Paxil 1997-2004 Crossed over to Lexapro Paxil not available at Pharmacies GSK halted deliveries Lexapro 40mgs Lexapro taper (2years) Imipramine Imipramine and Celexa Now Nefazadone/Imipramine 50mgs. each 45mgs. Serzone 50mgs. Imipramine Link to comment
EternalOptimist Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 HI, Going to answer btdt's question in her thread. Best 1989-2004 low doze Xanax nightly. 2004 w/d in hospital c/t with 3 other meds, (trazadone, phenobarbital, risperdal) Tapered off those meds in 7 months. 2010- bad anxiety so tried Valium and klonopin, back to hospital, came home on nothing, got much better. 12-23-2013- hospital for anxiety, depression,insomnia...used low dose lamictal 12 days with mitrazapine. Came home on 15 mg mitrazapine, down to c. 10 mg mitrazapine in c. 3weeks, 7.5 mg in 32 days.. Tapered off mitrazapine March 6, 2014. Took .75 mg April 20 and 1.05 mg April 21st. Ended taper March 6, 2014. Take supplements tho not all daily: fish oil, Vit. C., Vit. D, cal/mag, little multi, mag at night, Been taking homeopathic remedy since June, 2014 via a Homeopathic M.D. (Trained in psychiatry). 1-12, 2018 put on 60 mg cymbalta; 150 lyrica for anxiety and 50 mg trazadone. Tapered of trazadone after 3 months on it and tapered off of lyrica in about 9 months. As of March, 2019, only on 60 mg cymbalta. Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus bubble Posted March 19, 2014 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 19, 2014 Dear WH, read your post of course and glad you wrote it. Very busy at work so can just briefly let you know that from evertyhing I see, you are mending. btdt explained that very nicely. we all do that, so it doesn't make sense to tell you not to but just remind yourself once in a while: you are projecting your bad state in the present into the future: if you can't do certain things right now, it doesn't mean you won't be able to do them in the future. It's hard when we can't function up to our standards as mothers, partners, employees... but believe me, those of us like it that we are here any way we are. WE can't shield our children from imperfections and even cruelty of the world which your temporray bad state might be but it will not damage them. Human being are reselient, it will help them to become stronger. It's great that you can cry, the worst grief is then when tears can't come out. Crying is healthy. Don't be afraid of being negative and pessimistic. These states are natural. What is not natural is that contemporary culture is forcing us to always be upbeat, 'happy', its. This forum is an oasis in which it is not considered bad manners to be in bad mood, low, depressed, angry with the world and everyone in it, etc. you are healing and everything will be fine. big hug, bubble Current: 9/2022 Xanax 0.08, Lexapro 2 2020 Xanax 0.26 (down from 2 mg in 2013), Lexapro 2.85 mg (down from 5 mg 2013) Amitriptyline (tricyclic AD) and clonazepam for 3 months to treat headache in 1996 1999. - present Xanax prn up to 3 mg. 2000-2005 Prozac CT twice, 2005-2010 Zoloft CT 3 times, 2010-2013 Escitalopram 10 mg went from 2.5 to zero on 7 Aug 2013, bad crash 40 days afterreinstated to 5 mg Escitalopram 4Oct 2013 and holding liquid Xanax every 5 hours 28 Jan 2014 Xanax 1.9, 18 Apr 2015 1 mg, 25 June 2015 Lex 4.8, 6 Aug Lexapro 4.6, 1 Jan 2016 0.64 Xanax 9 month hold 24 Sept 2016 4.5 Lex, 17 Oct 4.4 Lex (Nov 0.63 Xanax, Dec 0.625 Xanax), 1 Jan 2017 4.3 Lex, 24 Jan 4.2, 5 Feb 4.1, 24 Mar 4 mg, 10 Apr 3.9 mg, May 3.85, June 3.8, July 3.75, 22 July 3.7, 15 Aug 3.65, 17 Sept 3.6, 1 Jan 2018 3.55, 19 Jan 3.5, 16 Mar 3.4, 14 Apr 3.3, 23 May 3.2, 16 June 3.15, 15 Jul 3.1, 31 Jul 3, 21 Aug 2.9 26 Sept 2.85, 14 Nov Xan 0.61, 1 Dec 0.59, 19 Dec 0.58, 4 Jan 0.565, 6 Feb 0.55, 20 Feb 0.535, 1 Mar 0.505, 10 Mar 0.475, 14 Mar 0.45, 4 Apr 0.415, 13 Apr 0.37, 21 Apr 0.33, 29 Apr 0.29, 10 May 0.27, 17 May 0.25, 28 May 0.22, 19 June 0.22, 21 Jun updose to 0.24, 24 Jun updose to 0.26 Supplements: Omega 3 + Vit E, Vit C, D, magnesium, Taurine, probiotic I'm not a medical professional. Any advice I give is based on my own experience and reading. Link to comment
Wolfhound Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Thanks to everyone who wrote me and commented on my post. I have already posted it, so what. Maybe I had not to. Yesterday there were few better hours. I was glad. I did not feel well at all, but it was a little bit better. But towards the evening everything went wrong and akathisia returned, the mother of all evil. Today it is worse once more. MAybe I have neuro emotions and neuro fears, but I really am afraid of my motherhood. I am ok with the fact it is not possible to live up to my usual standart, motherhood was everything for me. I worked part time also, but the children were everything for me and I loved spending our time together, hiking, walking, going to theatres, playing games, I tought them skating, skiing, swimming....so ok, this is not possible. But the problem is that many other basic things are not possible to me....and sometimes I dont feel like being with them at all, I got so stressed being around them and their battles. If somebody here has got three children, you know what I am talking about, it is a demanding job even when one is a healthy woman....and in such a withdrawal state it becomes almost impossible to manage for me....I know they will learn from it too, I have no doubt about it but there are things that must be done and I am at times so down ´that I cannot describe it. Yes, I am projecting into future. But I am simply sure it will take a long time to recover. When I see my reactions and think about it, I do not think everythink will dissapear overnight. That´s reality for me. These days, I try to live in the present moment. I struggle with it being so bitter and angry but at least I give it a try. Thanks everybody for letting me share my feelings. Put on trazadone for 8 weeks. Psychic akathisia started on 100 mg. Not a single doctor believed me telling me it is all anxiety in my head. Terrible suicidal urges. Got voluntary hospitalised. Acknoledged adverse reaction, put me off cold turkey. Instalated mirtazapine to block the reaction of trazadone. 5 weeks on mirtazapine.acathisia worsened, suicidal, homicidal urges. Nobody believed. Finally they stopped mirtazapine cold turkey. My heighest dose of trazadone was 200 mg, of mirtazapine 30 mg. Since the c/t, suicidal, acathisia continuing. tried promethazine for sleep. Tried atarax. Currently taking klonopin for 10 days. Good for sleep, but my condition worsening. Unable to tell if it is klonopin or a bad wave. In the former hospital i took twice gabapentin. It should be all my medication. i was offered promethazin for sleep 25 mg and also small amount of quetiapine. Both are antipsychotics, even if ptomethszin very weak. Terribly afraid. Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus bubble Posted March 20, 2014 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 20, 2014 I totally undertsand that everything is far from easy. BUT you are doing it! And I read a different person than 3 months ago, and in another 3 months (and less, but then it will be clearly visible), there will most likely be the old mom, enriched and strengthened. Was listening to audio book by Jan Kabat Zinn somebody recommended me here and was thinking about you. Also wanted to post something I wrote inspired by Alto early on my journey here. In short: I'm overjoyed (despite for things still being very hard...) hugs, bubble Current: 9/2022 Xanax 0.08, Lexapro 2 2020 Xanax 0.26 (down from 2 mg in 2013), Lexapro 2.85 mg (down from 5 mg 2013) Amitriptyline (tricyclic AD) and clonazepam for 3 months to treat headache in 1996 1999. - present Xanax prn up to 3 mg. 2000-2005 Prozac CT twice, 2005-2010 Zoloft CT 3 times, 2010-2013 Escitalopram 10 mg went from 2.5 to zero on 7 Aug 2013, bad crash 40 days afterreinstated to 5 mg Escitalopram 4Oct 2013 and holding liquid Xanax every 5 hours 28 Jan 2014 Xanax 1.9, 18 Apr 2015 1 mg, 25 June 2015 Lex 4.8, 6 Aug Lexapro 4.6, 1 Jan 2016 0.64 Xanax 9 month hold 24 Sept 2016 4.5 Lex, 17 Oct 4.4 Lex (Nov 0.63 Xanax, Dec 0.625 Xanax), 1 Jan 2017 4.3 Lex, 24 Jan 4.2, 5 Feb 4.1, 24 Mar 4 mg, 10 Apr 3.9 mg, May 3.85, June 3.8, July 3.75, 22 July 3.7, 15 Aug 3.65, 17 Sept 3.6, 1 Jan 2018 3.55, 19 Jan 3.5, 16 Mar 3.4, 14 Apr 3.3, 23 May 3.2, 16 June 3.15, 15 Jul 3.1, 31 Jul 3, 21 Aug 2.9 26 Sept 2.85, 14 Nov Xan 0.61, 1 Dec 0.59, 19 Dec 0.58, 4 Jan 0.565, 6 Feb 0.55, 20 Feb 0.535, 1 Mar 0.505, 10 Mar 0.475, 14 Mar 0.45, 4 Apr 0.415, 13 Apr 0.37, 21 Apr 0.33, 29 Apr 0.29, 10 May 0.27, 17 May 0.25, 28 May 0.22, 19 June 0.22, 21 Jun updose to 0.24, 24 Jun updose to 0.26 Supplements: Omega 3 + Vit E, Vit C, D, magnesium, Taurine, probiotic I'm not a medical professional. Any advice I give is based on my own experience and reading. Link to comment
Wolfhound Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Ok, post it!..and what audio book, if I can ask? I was told to read The power of now... Put on trazadone for 8 weeks. Psychic akathisia started on 100 mg. Not a single doctor believed me telling me it is all anxiety in my head. Terrible suicidal urges. Got voluntary hospitalised. Acknoledged adverse reaction, put me off cold turkey. Instalated mirtazapine to block the reaction of trazadone. 5 weeks on mirtazapine.acathisia worsened, suicidal, homicidal urges. Nobody believed. Finally they stopped mirtazapine cold turkey. My heighest dose of trazadone was 200 mg, of mirtazapine 30 mg. Since the c/t, suicidal, acathisia continuing. tried promethazine for sleep. Tried atarax. Currently taking klonopin for 10 days. Good for sleep, but my condition worsening. Unable to tell if it is klonopin or a bad wave. In the former hospital i took twice gabapentin. It should be all my medication. i was offered promethazin for sleep 25 mg and also small amount of quetiapine. Both are antipsychotics, even if ptomethszin very weak. Terribly afraid. Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus bubble Posted March 20, 2014 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 20, 2014 he speaks about the power of now as well but this one is the same idea delivered more practically and gently than the Power of Now (which is still great). This one is called Wherever you go, there you are. (My boyfriend found it for me online, there's some programme apparently but not sure if this is allowed ;( I wanted to find it on amazon but he was very quick) I was thinking about you while listening to it on the way to work and then remembered my post inspired by what Alto said that we can use this nasty and horrible experience as a chance to grow, it is something that forced us to take a better care of ourselves, meet new people, learn new things - so there is some benefit in it. This is what I wrote back in October when I was starting my 'education'. ALTO: It's important to treat yourself gently in the midst of withdrawal syndrome. You may not be able to handle difficult situations that you've always handled before.Focus on stress reduction, it's very important. Learning how to protect your nervous system from abrasive people is a good skill to learn and will serve you well in the long run.Being pushed to take care of ourselves is, I guess you could say, one of the benefits of this awful condition. It is precisely this clash with 'abrasive people' that has brought me down again. Ever since my Gestalt therapist remarked that I have difficulties dealing with people who have 'aggressive energy' as she put it, I started thinking about it and found it extremely helpful. For the time being I'm just avoiding them since I don't have better coping mechanisms but awareness is, I guess, the beginning of learning. Now it seems incredible that this simple realisation has been evading me for all 36 years of my life. I used to be so strict with myself and felt awfully bad about being such a sensitive person. Now I'm learning to embrace my sensitivity and see the importance and value of being who I am although I would maybe still prefer to be tougher. (Not maybe, I would I'd rather be a hammer than a nail But I'm learning to celebrate myself, as Walt Whitman would say. Also 'being pushed to take care of ourselves' as a benefit of withdrawal is such a valuable insight. There is value and importance in the suffering we are going through. Although it has constantly been present in my consciousness that I've been on and off (mostly on) various anti-depressants for many years, and using every window to taper (but always stay on or quickly go back) I am only now doing the painful math that this has been going on for 13 years! After my first breakdown at 19 I read about transcendental meditation and thought how this is the very thing that would help me; my sister bought me a Jon Kabat-Zinn's book, I've been occasionally taking supplements, started doing yoga, etc. but only now when I am sprawled on the floor in agony did I go through over 100 pages of the book that has been lying on my shelf for years (and recognize and appreciate my sister's well hidden concern and love for me); only now have I started doing 15 minutes mindful breathing before sleeping and taking conscious effort of being mindful of the world around me on the way to work; only now am I studying the benefits of taking supplements in the right way, the importance of a serious focus on tapering; only now am I religiously going up the hill and resuming my yoga classes although every cell in my body would just like to be glued to the bed for what seems like forever (so we made a compromise: one day we lie, next day we push ourselves up the hill to feel that anxiety-relieving and mind clearing endorphin rush because I have learnt that you have to listen to your body and soul when it asks you for rest but not humor it completely)... Current: 9/2022 Xanax 0.08, Lexapro 2 2020 Xanax 0.26 (down from 2 mg in 2013), Lexapro 2.85 mg (down from 5 mg 2013) Amitriptyline (tricyclic AD) and clonazepam for 3 months to treat headache in 1996 1999. - present Xanax prn up to 3 mg. 2000-2005 Prozac CT twice, 2005-2010 Zoloft CT 3 times, 2010-2013 Escitalopram 10 mg went from 2.5 to zero on 7 Aug 2013, bad crash 40 days afterreinstated to 5 mg Escitalopram 4Oct 2013 and holding liquid Xanax every 5 hours 28 Jan 2014 Xanax 1.9, 18 Apr 2015 1 mg, 25 June 2015 Lex 4.8, 6 Aug Lexapro 4.6, 1 Jan 2016 0.64 Xanax 9 month hold 24 Sept 2016 4.5 Lex, 17 Oct 4.4 Lex (Nov 0.63 Xanax, Dec 0.625 Xanax), 1 Jan 2017 4.3 Lex, 24 Jan 4.2, 5 Feb 4.1, 24 Mar 4 mg, 10 Apr 3.9 mg, May 3.85, June 3.8, July 3.75, 22 July 3.7, 15 Aug 3.65, 17 Sept 3.6, 1 Jan 2018 3.55, 19 Jan 3.5, 16 Mar 3.4, 14 Apr 3.3, 23 May 3.2, 16 June 3.15, 15 Jul 3.1, 31 Jul 3, 21 Aug 2.9 26 Sept 2.85, 14 Nov Xan 0.61, 1 Dec 0.59, 19 Dec 0.58, 4 Jan 0.565, 6 Feb 0.55, 20 Feb 0.535, 1 Mar 0.505, 10 Mar 0.475, 14 Mar 0.45, 4 Apr 0.415, 13 Apr 0.37, 21 Apr 0.33, 29 Apr 0.29, 10 May 0.27, 17 May 0.25, 28 May 0.22, 19 June 0.22, 21 Jun updose to 0.24, 24 Jun updose to 0.26 Supplements: Omega 3 + Vit E, Vit C, D, magnesium, Taurine, probiotic I'm not a medical professional. Any advice I give is based on my own experience and reading. Link to comment
Wolfhound Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 And now for something completely different Our apricot tree started to blossom today! (It means we will get no apricots since it is too early...but even if I don´t feel like admiring blossoms, it is nice) Put on trazadone for 8 weeks. Psychic akathisia started on 100 mg. Not a single doctor believed me telling me it is all anxiety in my head. Terrible suicidal urges. Got voluntary hospitalised. Acknoledged adverse reaction, put me off cold turkey. Instalated mirtazapine to block the reaction of trazadone. 5 weeks on mirtazapine.acathisia worsened, suicidal, homicidal urges. Nobody believed. Finally they stopped mirtazapine cold turkey. My heighest dose of trazadone was 200 mg, of mirtazapine 30 mg. Since the c/t, suicidal, acathisia continuing. tried promethazine for sleep. Tried atarax. Currently taking klonopin for 10 days. Good for sleep, but my condition worsening. Unable to tell if it is klonopin or a bad wave. In the former hospital i took twice gabapentin. It should be all my medication. i was offered promethazin for sleep 25 mg and also small amount of quetiapine. Both are antipsychotics, even if ptomethszin very weak. Terribly afraid. Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus mammaP Posted March 20, 2014 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 20, 2014 That is lovely Wolfhound, that you can look at the apricot tree and see it's beauty is very very good progress, and now I have tears threatening to fall because I am so happy to see that. **I am not a medical professional, if in doubt please consult a doctor with withdrawal knowledge. Different drugs occasionally (mostly benzos) 1976 - 1981 (no problem) 1993 - 2002 in and out of hospital. every type of drug + ECT. Staring with seroxat 2002 effexor. Tapered March 2012 to March 2013, ending with 5 beads. Withdrawal April 2013 . Reinstated 5 beads reduced to 4 beads May 2013 Restarted taper Nov 2013 OFF EFFEXOR Feb 2015 Tapered atenolol and omeprazole Dec 2013 - May 2014 Tapering tramadol, Feb 2015 100mg , March 2015 50mg July 2017 30mg. May 15 2018 25mg Taking fish oil, magnesium, B12, folic acid, bilberry eyebright for eye pressure. My story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4199-hello-mammap-checking-in/page-33 Lesson learned, slow down taper at lower doses. Taper no more than 10% of CURRENT dose if possible Link to comment
Wolfhound Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 That is lovely Wolfhound, that you can look at the apricot tree and see it's beauty is very very good progress, and now I have tears threatening to fall because I am so happy to see that. thank so much....yes, i looked at it in the afternoon with a certain feeling actually which is good. Now it is gone i dont know why i started to have worse evenings. Put on trazadone for 8 weeks. Psychic akathisia started on 100 mg. Not a single doctor believed me telling me it is all anxiety in my head. Terrible suicidal urges. Got voluntary hospitalised. Acknoledged adverse reaction, put me off cold turkey. Instalated mirtazapine to block the reaction of trazadone. 5 weeks on mirtazapine.acathisia worsened, suicidal, homicidal urges. Nobody believed. Finally they stopped mirtazapine cold turkey. My heighest dose of trazadone was 200 mg, of mirtazapine 30 mg. Since the c/t, suicidal, acathisia continuing. tried promethazine for sleep. Tried atarax. Currently taking klonopin for 10 days. Good for sleep, but my condition worsening. Unable to tell if it is klonopin or a bad wave. In the former hospital i took twice gabapentin. It should be all my medication. i was offered promethazin for sleep 25 mg and also small amount of quetiapine. Both are antipsychotics, even if ptomethszin very weak. Terribly afraid. Link to comment
Wolfhound Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 he speaks about the power of now as well but this one is the same idea delivered more practically and gently than the Power of Now (which is still great). This one is called Wherever you go, there you are. (My boyfriend found it for me online, there's some programme apparently but not sure if this is allowed ;( I wanted to find it on amazon but he was very quick) I was thinking about you while listening to it on the way to work and then remembered my post inspired by what Alto said that we can use this nasty and horrible experience as a chance to grow, it is something that forced us to take a better care of ourselves, meet new people, learn new things - so there is some benefit in it. This is what I wrote back in October when I was starting my 'education'. ALTO: It's important to treat yourself gently in the midst of withdrawal syndrome. You may not be able to handle difficult situations that you've always handled before. Focus on stress reduction, it's very important. Learning how to protect your nervous system from abrasive people is a good skill to learn and will serve you well in the long run. Being pushed to take care of ourselves is, I guess you could say, one of the benefits of this awful condition. It is precisely this clash with 'abrasive people' that has brought me down again. Ever since my Gestalt therapist remarked that I have difficulties dealing with people who have 'aggressive energy' as she put it, I started thinking about it and found it extremely helpful. For the time being I'm just avoiding them since I don't have better coping mechanisms but awareness is, I guess, the beginning of learning. Now it seems incredible that this simple realisation has been evading me for all 36 years of my life. I used to be so strict with myself and felt awfully bad about being such a sensitive person. Now I'm learning to embrace my sensitivity and see the importance and value of being who I am although I would maybe still prefer to be tougher. (Not maybe, I would I'd rather be a hammer than a nail But I'm learning to celebrate myself, as Walt Whitman would say. Also 'being pushed to take care of ourselves' as a benefit of withdrawal is such a valuable insight. There is value and importance in the suffering we are going through. Although it has constantly been present in my consciousness that I've been on and off (mostly on) various anti-depressants for many years, and using every window to taper (but always stay on or quickly go back) I am only now doing the painful math that this has been going on for 13 years! After my first breakdown at 19 I read about transcendental meditation and thought how this is the very thing that would help me; my sister bought me a Jon Kabat-Zinn's book, I've been occasionally taking supplements, started doing yoga, etc. but only now when I am sprawled on the floor in agony did I go through over 100 pages of the book that has been lying on my shelf for years (and recognize and appreciate my sister's well hidden concern and love for me); only now have I started doing 15 minutes mindful breathing before sleeping and taking conscious effort of being mindful of the world around me on the way to work; only now am I studying the benefits of taking supplements in the right way, the importance of a serious focus on tapering; only now am I religiously going up the hill and resuming my yoga classes although every cell in my body would just like to be glued to the bed for what seems like forever (so we made a compromise: one day we lie, next day we push ourselves up the hill to feel that anxiety-relieving and mind clearing endorphin rush because I have learnt that you have to listen to your body and soul when it asks you for rest but not humor it completely)... Bubble, thanks so much. I cannot concentrate for a long post now but will read it tomorrow. Put on trazadone for 8 weeks. Psychic akathisia started on 100 mg. Not a single doctor believed me telling me it is all anxiety in my head. Terrible suicidal urges. Got voluntary hospitalised. Acknoledged adverse reaction, put me off cold turkey. Instalated mirtazapine to block the reaction of trazadone. 5 weeks on mirtazapine.acathisia worsened, suicidal, homicidal urges. Nobody believed. Finally they stopped mirtazapine cold turkey. My heighest dose of trazadone was 200 mg, of mirtazapine 30 mg. Since the c/t, suicidal, acathisia continuing. tried promethazine for sleep. Tried atarax. Currently taking klonopin for 10 days. Good for sleep, but my condition worsening. Unable to tell if it is klonopin or a bad wave. In the former hospital i took twice gabapentin. It should be all my medication. i was offered promethazin for sleep 25 mg and also small amount of quetiapine. Both are antipsychotics, even if ptomethszin very weak. Terribly afraid. Link to comment
Wolfhound Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 Thanks bubble for the proposals! I will definitely look into them. I am planning to start with Tolle and than move on....hope I find the patience to read. That sounds horrible since I have always been an exorbitant reader. I understand much of the things and proposals...but understanding is not the right thing now for me. I would need to feel it as a part of my life and I am not able of it. Avoiding stress is very difficult. Some stress is avoidable without problems, but some is not. Maybe all of this is of acquired capacity. I feel it is a part of a journey and we are learning many things on the journey...we cannot learn everything in one day. Well, I can´t. Had a slightly better morning. Thankful. Had an awful afternoon and evening. I am tired of these scaty intrusive thoughts and images. Do someone here suffer from constant horrific intrusive thoughts? How do you manage? Thank you W. Put on trazadone for 8 weeks. Psychic akathisia started on 100 mg. Not a single doctor believed me telling me it is all anxiety in my head. Terrible suicidal urges. Got voluntary hospitalised. Acknoledged adverse reaction, put me off cold turkey. Instalated mirtazapine to block the reaction of trazadone. 5 weeks on mirtazapine.acathisia worsened, suicidal, homicidal urges. Nobody believed. Finally they stopped mirtazapine cold turkey. My heighest dose of trazadone was 200 mg, of mirtazapine 30 mg. Since the c/t, suicidal, acathisia continuing. tried promethazine for sleep. Tried atarax. Currently taking klonopin for 10 days. Good for sleep, but my condition worsening. Unable to tell if it is klonopin or a bad wave. In the former hospital i took twice gabapentin. It should be all my medication. i was offered promethazin for sleep 25 mg and also small amount of quetiapine. Both are antipsychotics, even if ptomethszin very weak. Terribly afraid. Link to comment
Muddles Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I have had the scary and intrusive thoughts. Most of them I could not even share on here. Mirtazapine have me OCD from day one...never had it before but is worse in withdrawal. I picture a big stop sign in my head when they come in...it helps a bit. Sometimes I laugh at them because they are so unreal it's a joke - I try to see it as a big joke...like our normal healed brain would ever think such things!! Other times I let them be - accept that they are there but pay no attention to them. This helps but know how awful, disturbing and empowering they are. Think they are worse than the physical symptoms. Hope this helps a bit. Hugs. 2008 - Doctors appointment with stress induced anxiety led to Citalopram prescription. Severe adverse reaction Mirtazapine prescribed - adverse reaction but told to stay on. Poop out - December 2013 15mg Currently on 13.5mg, April 12mg May 10th - 11mg June 10th - 10mg July 8th - 9mg September - 0mg Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus bubble Posted March 22, 2014 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 22, 2014 And now for something completely different Our apricot tree started to blossom today! (It means we will get no apricots since it is too early...but even if I don´t feel like admiring blossoms, it is nice) I hope there are more moments like this (and no more snow or cold to preserve the apricots! I don't know what happened last year, but all fruit was abundant here last year and my brother made some amazing apricot jam). I have to say something else: I got overwhelmed recently with people here who fail to learn and grown, repeat the same things over and over again, are totally self-absorbed, don't even look at others let alone learn from them. I admire Alto and others for all their incredible patience... That's why I find you and some other people so refreshing because you are using this awful experience as an incentive to learn and grow. I hope more healing is happening as well... Hugs, bubble Current: 9/2022 Xanax 0.08, Lexapro 2 2020 Xanax 0.26 (down from 2 mg in 2013), Lexapro 2.85 mg (down from 5 mg 2013) Amitriptyline (tricyclic AD) and clonazepam for 3 months to treat headache in 1996 1999. - present Xanax prn up to 3 mg. 2000-2005 Prozac CT twice, 2005-2010 Zoloft CT 3 times, 2010-2013 Escitalopram 10 mg went from 2.5 to zero on 7 Aug 2013, bad crash 40 days afterreinstated to 5 mg Escitalopram 4Oct 2013 and holding liquid Xanax every 5 hours 28 Jan 2014 Xanax 1.9, 18 Apr 2015 1 mg, 25 June 2015 Lex 4.8, 6 Aug Lexapro 4.6, 1 Jan 2016 0.64 Xanax 9 month hold 24 Sept 2016 4.5 Lex, 17 Oct 4.4 Lex (Nov 0.63 Xanax, Dec 0.625 Xanax), 1 Jan 2017 4.3 Lex, 24 Jan 4.2, 5 Feb 4.1, 24 Mar 4 mg, 10 Apr 3.9 mg, May 3.85, June 3.8, July 3.75, 22 July 3.7, 15 Aug 3.65, 17 Sept 3.6, 1 Jan 2018 3.55, 19 Jan 3.5, 16 Mar 3.4, 14 Apr 3.3, 23 May 3.2, 16 June 3.15, 15 Jul 3.1, 31 Jul 3, 21 Aug 2.9 26 Sept 2.85, 14 Nov Xan 0.61, 1 Dec 0.59, 19 Dec 0.58, 4 Jan 0.565, 6 Feb 0.55, 20 Feb 0.535, 1 Mar 0.505, 10 Mar 0.475, 14 Mar 0.45, 4 Apr 0.415, 13 Apr 0.37, 21 Apr 0.33, 29 Apr 0.29, 10 May 0.27, 17 May 0.25, 28 May 0.22, 19 June 0.22, 21 Jun updose to 0.24, 24 Jun updose to 0.26 Supplements: Omega 3 + Vit E, Vit C, D, magnesium, Taurine, probiotic I'm not a medical professional. Any advice I give is based on my own experience and reading. Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Petunia Posted March 24, 2014 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 24, 2014 Hi Wolfhound, I've been following your thread and have noticed an improvement. Of course, I don't know if you are actually feeling better, or just managing better, but, either way, its a good thing. I am tired of these scaty intrusive thoughts and images. Do someone here suffer from constant horrific intrusive thoughts? How do you manage? I've had this, and still have it happening. At first, for about 4 - 6 months, it was worse. In the beginning, they would stop me from sleeping, so I really didn't get much of a break. They can be overwhelming and terrifying. At first, I would use distraction as a way of dealing with them. It didn't work completely, because they were always there in the background, but by focusing on something else, it enabled me to not pay direct attention to them. Because the intrusive thoughts are verbal and images, focusing on something which uses those brain pathways seems to work best to block them out. So things like watch TV, if you can or doing something on the computer where you have to read, or listen to something, along with looking at something. Interacting with other people can offer some distraction too, as long as its nothing stressful. Keep the mind occupied with something else. The other way I've handled them is by practicing acceptance. At times I've thought that these thoughts and images are like remnants of old emotional wounds which have become trapped in my subconscious and are trying to be released. So for short periods of time, I've let them come up, noticed them and let them go, but not attaching to them. Having the attitude that its an old story that wants to be heard and then forgotten. If the thoughts and images are very frightening, it can be very difficult, especially at first. It took me a long to realize that I could actually face some of these awful thoughts and ideas and have nothing bad happen. It feels extremely uncomfortable though and I don't recommend it. But for me, I'm trying to see withdrawal as a spiritual/growth process and being able to face some of my shadow material seemed like a good idea. There's one other thing I've used which has been helpful, but I'm reluctant to mention it because other people have also tried it and it hasn't worked. I've been taking taurine, 500mg 2 - 3 times a day. Since I've been taking it, the intrusive thoughts have decreased significantly, but that's the only symptom it seems to help with. I take one as soon as I wake up, and suffer with frightening, intrusive thoughts until it starts to work, which is usually about an hour, maybe a little longer. Then they mostly fade away for a few hours. These days, my symptoms naturally start to settle down by noon - middle of the afternoon, so I often don't take another one until just before I go to sleep. But if my thoughts increase during the day, I will take another one. But as I have said, others have tried this and it hasn't helped. There's one more thing which I've been doing, which has enabled me to learn how to detach from my thoughts. But this also isn't for everyone. I've been learning about non-duallity or advaita and vipassana meditation. Like most people, I used to believe my thoughts and be controlled by whatever my mind was saying to me. Now I'm seeing that the content of my mind is like a never ending stream of stories and I have a choice about what I do with them. This also isn't easy, because I've been believing my thoughts my whole life, so its a difficult habit to break. The most surprising thing I've learned is that all thought, apart from the kind of thinking needed to accomplish a particular task, is always about either the past or the future, never about now. Seeing as the only moment we can actually live in is right now, by letting our thoughts of the past or future fill our mind, we are not fully present in our lives from moment to moment. I think this concept is mainly what the book 'The Power of Now' is about, teaching us how to live in our present moments. I like what Bubble wrote above, that she has noticed that some people use this awful experience as an incentive to learn and grow. There is a book called 'Man's Search for Meaning', by Viktor Frankl, I read it years ago, but I always remembered the main message. The human spirit is incredibly strong and can survive incredible amounts of suffering if some kind of meaning can be found in it. (hugs) Petu. I'm not a doctor. My comments are not medical advise. These are my opinions based on my own experience and what I've learned. Please discuss your situation with a medical practitioner who has knowledge of tapering and withdrawal...if you are lucky enough to find one. My Introduction Thread Full Drug and Withdrawal History Brief Summary Several SSRIs for 13 years starting 1997 (for mild to moderate partly situational anxiety) Xanax PRN ~ Various other drugs over the years for side effects 2 month 'taper' off Lexapro 2010 Short acute withdrawal, followed by 2 -3 months of improvement then delayed protracted withdrawal DX ADHD followed by several years of stimulants and other drugs trying to manage increasing symptoms Failed reinstatement of Lexapro and trial of Prozac (became suicidal) May 2013 Found SA, learned about withdrawal, stopped taking drugs...healing begins. Protracted withdrawal, with a very sensitized nervous system, slowly recovering as time passes Supplements which have helped: Vitamin C, Magnesium, Taurine Bad reactions: Many supplements but mostly fish oil and Vitamin D June 2016 - Started daily juicing, mostly vegetables and lots of greens. Aug 2016 - Oct 2016 Best window ever, felt almost completely recovered Oct 2016 -Symptoms returned - bad days and less bad days. April 2018 - No windows, but significant improvement, it feels like permanent full recovery is close. VIDEO: Where did the chemical imbalance theory come from? VIDEO: How are psychiatric diagnoses made? VIDEO: Why do psychiatric drugs have withdrawal syndromes? VIDEO: Can psychiatric drugs cause long-lasting negative effects? VIDEO: Dr. Claire Weekes Link to comment
EternalOptimist Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Hi Wolfhound: Such wonderful feedback here and sounds like u r managing better,,? I'm trying to learn more about myself too thru this. Have a ? Bout mitrazapine w/d...did/do you have severe head pressure such that you're nearly thrown down or just have to lay your head down? Makes walking diff sometimes betw pressure, balance and fatigue/weakness. Thnx EO 1989-2004 low doze Xanax nightly. 2004 w/d in hospital c/t with 3 other meds, (trazadone, phenobarbital, risperdal) Tapered off those meds in 7 months. 2010- bad anxiety so tried Valium and klonopin, back to hospital, came home on nothing, got much better. 12-23-2013- hospital for anxiety, depression,insomnia...used low dose lamictal 12 days with mitrazapine. Came home on 15 mg mitrazapine, down to c. 10 mg mitrazapine in c. 3weeks, 7.5 mg in 32 days.. Tapered off mitrazapine March 6, 2014. Took .75 mg April 20 and 1.05 mg April 21st. Ended taper March 6, 2014. Take supplements tho not all daily: fish oil, Vit. C., Vit. D, cal/mag, little multi, mag at night, Been taking homeopathic remedy since June, 2014 via a Homeopathic M.D. (Trained in psychiatry). 1-12, 2018 put on 60 mg cymbalta; 150 lyrica for anxiety and 50 mg trazadone. Tapered of trazadone after 3 months on it and tapered off of lyrica in about 9 months. As of March, 2019, only on 60 mg cymbalta. Link to comment
Wolfhound Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 Petu I cannot thank you enough for your wonderful post. And I value it so much since I know you are in a wave, it is heartbreaking that you reach out when not feeling well. I am crying. I cannot post now much, don´t feel like it now, will hopefuly tomorrow, but I must have written this. Put on trazadone for 8 weeks. Psychic akathisia started on 100 mg. Not a single doctor believed me telling me it is all anxiety in my head. Terrible suicidal urges. Got voluntary hospitalised. Acknoledged adverse reaction, put me off cold turkey. Instalated mirtazapine to block the reaction of trazadone. 5 weeks on mirtazapine.acathisia worsened, suicidal, homicidal urges. Nobody believed. Finally they stopped mirtazapine cold turkey. My heighest dose of trazadone was 200 mg, of mirtazapine 30 mg. Since the c/t, suicidal, acathisia continuing. tried promethazine for sleep. Tried atarax. Currently taking klonopin for 10 days. Good for sleep, but my condition worsening. Unable to tell if it is klonopin or a bad wave. In the former hospital i took twice gabapentin. It should be all my medication. i was offered promethazin for sleep 25 mg and also small amount of quetiapine. Both are antipsychotics, even if ptomethszin very weak. Terribly afraid. Link to comment
Wolfhound Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 Hi Wolfhound: Such wonderful feedback here and sounds like u r managing better,,? I'm trying to learn more about myself too thru this. Have a ? Bout mitrazapine w/d...did/do you have severe head pressure such that you're nearly thrown down or just have to lay your head down? Makes walking diff sometimes betw pressure, balance and fatigue/weakness. Thnx EO Hi EternalOptimist, thanks for asking. I have mostly psychological symptoms but as far as physical ones are concerned, I feel head pressure especially in the back part of my head and than in the ear area. I have tinnitus as well, so maybe the pressure close to ears is because of this. Fatigue and weakness, yes. Weakness in legs mostly. I don´t have problems with balance but with estimating distances - I have many bruises on my legs because I actually am not able to see something in front of me, well I see it but think it´s more distant than it is in reality.... I know that ADs are messing with our brains but i was very much surprised that I was able to feel it in my head... Hope that was of any help to you, greetings wolfhound Put on trazadone for 8 weeks. Psychic akathisia started on 100 mg. Not a single doctor believed me telling me it is all anxiety in my head. Terrible suicidal urges. Got voluntary hospitalised. Acknoledged adverse reaction, put me off cold turkey. Instalated mirtazapine to block the reaction of trazadone. 5 weeks on mirtazapine.acathisia worsened, suicidal, homicidal urges. Nobody believed. Finally they stopped mirtazapine cold turkey. My heighest dose of trazadone was 200 mg, of mirtazapine 30 mg. Since the c/t, suicidal, acathisia continuing. tried promethazine for sleep. Tried atarax. Currently taking klonopin for 10 days. Good for sleep, but my condition worsening. Unable to tell if it is klonopin or a bad wave. In the former hospital i took twice gabapentin. It should be all my medication. i was offered promethazin for sleep 25 mg and also small amount of quetiapine. Both are antipsychotics, even if ptomethszin very weak. Terribly afraid. Link to comment
EternalOptimist Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Hi EternalOptimist, thanks for asking. I have mostly psychological symptoms but as far as physical ones are concerned, I feel head pressure especially in the back part of my head and than in the ear area. I have tinnitus as well, so maybe the pressure close to ears is because of this. Fatigue and weakness, yes. Weakness in legs mostly. I don´t have problems with balance but with estimating distances - I have many bruises on my legs because I actually am not able to see something in front of me, well I see it but think it´s more distant than it is in reality.... I know that ADs are messing with our brains but i was very much surprised that I was able to feel it in my head... Hope that was of any help to you, greetings wolfhound Hi W. Thanks for replying so quickly. Guess its a bonus to have more Sx in one area than in both. Yes, leg weakness and head Sx validate me, thnx. Even laying down the head pressure is so severe then I have to get up then lay back down, all day long. Feels Ike my head will explode. Sometimes get equilibrium disturbances even laying still. Guess we have to keep wading thru these murky waters. Best to you. EO 1989-2004 low doze Xanax nightly. 2004 w/d in hospital c/t with 3 other meds, (trazadone, phenobarbital, risperdal) Tapered off those meds in 7 months. 2010- bad anxiety so tried Valium and klonopin, back to hospital, came home on nothing, got much better. 12-23-2013- hospital for anxiety, depression,insomnia...used low dose lamictal 12 days with mitrazapine. Came home on 15 mg mitrazapine, down to c. 10 mg mitrazapine in c. 3weeks, 7.5 mg in 32 days.. Tapered off mitrazapine March 6, 2014. Took .75 mg April 20 and 1.05 mg April 21st. Ended taper March 6, 2014. Take supplements tho not all daily: fish oil, Vit. C., Vit. D, cal/mag, little multi, mag at night, Been taking homeopathic remedy since June, 2014 via a Homeopathic M.D. (Trained in psychiatry). 1-12, 2018 put on 60 mg cymbalta; 150 lyrica for anxiety and 50 mg trazadone. Tapered of trazadone after 3 months on it and tapered off of lyrica in about 9 months. As of March, 2019, only on 60 mg cymbalta. Link to comment
Nikki Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 WH.... You actually do sound better and you have been able to send me some lovely pics on FB. You would not have been able to do this a month ago. Your children are beautiful. I have intrusive thoughts too and it is from anxiety which is fueled by meds. You are not alone. Please try to remember (and I need to remind myself all the time) that we are not psychological disasters even though we feel like it. It is the drugs. You are not flawed, none of us are. The worst symptoms for me are the mental/emotional ones. The physical symptoms for me are something I can ignore. Insomnia when it happens is tough to ignore. You are alot stronger than you give yourself credit for...... Will talk to you more on FB....Keep sending me pictures...I love them I pulled up a map of your country to get a better understanding:) Intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1902-nikki-hi-my-rundown-with-ads/ Paxil 1997-2004 Crossed over to Lexapro Paxil not available at Pharmacies GSK halted deliveries Lexapro 40mgs Lexapro taper (2years) Imipramine Imipramine and Celexa Now Nefazadone/Imipramine 50mgs. each 45mgs. Serzone 50mgs. Imipramine Link to comment
mattinsmom Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I'm not in a position to write but I know that you have a hard struggle and I want you to know that I'm thinking about you. Current: Lorazapam: 2mg: 4/9/15: 2mg - 1.5mg: already sick/nothing noticed. No changes in sleep noted after illness. Lamictal: 7/27/13 - 8/6/13: 400mg - 500mg(dr order) mouth sores, headache, cognitive/balance, heart palp...8/7/13 - 8/23/13: 500mg - 400mg; symptoms↓...10/10/13: 350mg; fever/flu-like <2-weeks...12/30/13: 325mg; fever/flu-like symptoms <1-week...2/10/17: 300mg; no significant changes noted. Discontinued: Omeprazole: 09/2103 40mg...5/1/14: 20mg... 8/21/14 = 0 Wellbutrin: 11/22/13: 300mg – 225mg...12/6/13 delayed reaction- mood swings, weight↓, heart palp/chest pain, alerting...12/14/13: 187mg; physical symptoms↓, neuro emotions ↑, weight stable...12/20/13: 225mg; physical symptoms return, emotions stable <1-week, weight↓...4/21/14: 187mg; weight↑...5/17/14 (neurologist ordered discontinue asap):168mg; headache, mood swings, ↑weight, sleep flux...5/24/14: 150mg; headache, mood swings, ↓cognitive/balance...6/2/14: 112mg; see above, weight stable, <3-weeks... 6/28/14: 100mg; moody...7/25/14: 87.5mg; family troubles... 8/4/14: 75mg; headaches; moody... 8/9/14: 50mg headaches... 8/12/14: 37.5mg; 8/17/14: 25mg...8/26/14 = 0 Hydroxyzine; 10mg: 5/20/15 *prn 4/5 times then dc'd. Mood changes/rage Buspirone: 7.5mg: 5/20/15 *prn 4/5 times then dc'd. No changes. Link to comment
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