Jshect major issues with Wellbutrin/Deplin and klonopin addiction

[Altostrata]

Any of the B vitamins, including folate, can be stimulating. Megadoses are not the body's normal intake.

 

Methylfolate is another thing where a little bit can be good, and a lot is too much.

[Jshect]

http://mthfr.net/methylfolate-side-effects/2012/03/01/

Well that definitely could be partially what I'm going through right now. I am desperate, so I will probably try some of their products to offset side effects. The problem is which ones to buy? The heart palpitations definitely respond to magnesium, so I think the electrolytes are a good idea. I don't really know about the other supplements. I hate just spending a hundred dollars on supplements, but I know the fellow who runs this site is an expert on MTHFR.

[Altostrata]

I'm pretty familiar with that site, as I'm heterozygous for two MTHFR variations.

 

Having looked into it, I don't think much of MTHFR "treatment." MTHFR variations are normal, it's not a disease.

 

You can get niacin very inexpensively elsewhere. As for everything else he suggests -- it's all trial and error, which means there's no real protocol. I wouldn't bother "balancing" supplements for MTHFR.

 

Deplin is a megadose, 7.5mg (7500mcg). it may be too activating for you, reduce it gradually to where you are comfortable. It may very well be a normal amount of methylfolate, such as 400mcg, is enough for you. It may be you don't need methylfolate supplements at all -- if you eat enough fresh green vegetables, which are full of it.

 

I would not buy any marked-up supplements from an online specialist.

[Jshect]

I'm actually on 15 mg of Deplin. The extremely ironic thing, which complicates things extraordinarily, is that I get more PVC's when I lower the dosage. The PVC's drive me insane. The anxiety is brutal, but it doesn't make sense that lowering the Deplin would do that. Usually, it's the reverse. Yes, I bought some Niacin tonight, and it really relaxed me. I haven't been that relaxed in ages. I wish I could talk to a doctor and specialist of some kind, who understands this stuff. Perhaps my next move should be a gradual reduction of Deplin. Do you have any advice on tapering Deplin. Especially since, it ironically causes heart palpitations. Also, is there anything I could try for the cramps and pain, I'm in now, which could be caused by the Deplin. 

[Jshect]

The Deplin is in a capsule. I could open it into 15 ml of water and gradually taper it down, like I did Wellbutrin. Excellent.

[Jshect]

But how to keep the PVC's at bay. Magnesium supplements worked with my other tapers. They did not work when I tried to get off of the Deplin. Of course I didn't taper it. Probably, Mg with other electrolytes involved in pumping the heart would help i.e. Potassium and Sodium.

[Meimeiquest]

I think the PVC's are from overactivation of your sympathetic nervous system.

 

I have become quite the supplement queen (whether that is good or bad I don't know). Niacin was my first supplement trial (my gateway drug you could say) and helped my off the wall anxiety immediately. A big part of that anxiety was from a methyl folate trial.

 

I have been tested for MTHFR mutations and none were found. I have a low homocysteine level, in the 8's (that might be a relevant blood test for you). But I reacted horribly to methyl folate. Oddly, when I was poly drugging I did a 30-day trial of Deplin and it had absolutely no effect.

 

So, some thoughts that are worth what you're paying for them: Some think the balance of methyl and folic acid (they work differently in gene regulation) is critical, so it is often a mistake to combine them. So they would recommend taking plain folate or folic acid. I personally take 800 mcg twice a day. It was a tough go at first, increased anxiety, but slowed the brain chatter significantly once I settled in...I had to taper up gradually. Niacin can be a big help, but it can also tax the liver. Vitamin C helps with that...I take a total of 2000mg/day. Inositol can be calming for some people, there is a thread on it. Taurine really helped my heart symptoms, but is not helpful to everyone. There is also a thread on it. Both are much cheaper purchased as loose powder than in capsules. The concern that many, including me, have is that they may just be delaying the brain's adjustment to a drug-free state.

 

I don't follow her protocols, but Dr. Mullan has an e-book that gives some fairly clear explanations of genetic and epigenetic expression. She is a big MTHFR "treater," so take it for what it's worth. Www.nancymullanmd.com. She works off Amy Yasko's protocols. My personal opinion based on nothing is that MTHFR, especially heterozygous changes, is no big deal unless your epigenetic control fails. And, as I said, I have no evidence of any problems there but my family is rife with mental illness. My nephew has recently been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and had some sort of genetic work up. MTHFR normal, but other mutations were noted.

 

Anyway, good luck as you keep working through this. You've come so far!

[Meimeiquest]

Are you thinking of Ben Lynch's electrolyte solution? My daughter is on it for totally different reasons. I think taurine is the biggest player in it. You could get taurine alone easily. You also might want to give Epsom salts a whirl. I have recently found soaking my feet in a bucket with one cup does as much good as four cups in the tub and obviously much cheaper. Sweet potatoes are a great source of potassium.

[Jshect]

Can anyone explain why I get the palpitations (PVC's) when I go off or taper stimulating medications? It usually happens when you go on them and you get relief when you go off of them. This would be so much easier if I could just simply go off the meds and the PVC's would go away. It's bizarre. 

[Altostrata]

Remember our earlier discussion of this? It's because your nervous system is in an uneasy, uncomfortable dependency on the combination of things you're taking, and when you change any of them, the relationships between the rest change.

 

If you are taking 15mg Deplin, you are taking 15000mcg of methylfolate. That is a very large amount.

 

You can reduce it by pouring some of the powder out of the capsule, such as 1/4 of the powder, reducing by 25% at a time. This may not be a big enough change to cause PVCs.

 

What are all the drugs and dosages you're taking now? Why are you changing the Deplin rather than the others?

 

It's good you've discovered niacin counters some of the adverse effects of the Deplin overdose. If I were you, I'd stop worrying about MTHFR and concentrate on minimizing your drug burden.

[Jshect]

I'm only on three meds now. I'll change my profile soon. I'm on Deplin 15 mg, bystolic 2.5 mg, and Klonopin .25 mg.

I'm writing about Deplin because it's turning out to be even trickier than some of the other meds to lower. It may also be the main culprit. All of this craziness started when I got on Deplin 4 years ago. It kicked everything into overdrive. I was on meds for ten years before and nothing major happened. Those symptoms for too much Methylfolate may be the impetus for the pain, mania, and PVC's I have been experiencing. When I got off of Loxapine and Wellbutrin I thought I would be done with the pain and pvc's, but I'm not. That's why I was looking at those supplements that help you deal with pain and palpitations. This may be a troublesome taper. If anyone has any solid suggestions for reducing PVC's please let me know. Magnesium has been helpful. I read potassium and sodium can also help. Slight variation can mess with your hearts electrical system. Ah, almost there. I wonder if anyone else on this forum has had issues with Deplin.

[Jshect]

Yes, unfortunately these PVCs cause me immense anxiety. I just can't get used to them.

[Jshect]

Also, does anyone know of any functional doctors or naturopaths I could skype with. Regular doctors don't seem to know s### about this stuff. A natural path may understand why methylfolate is causing me problems and also other problems I have had nearly my whole life such as brain fog and extremely poor mental stamina (issues I have to deal with when I get off these meds). The doctor at MTHFR is a functional doctor, but that website is one giant sales pitch... our whole medical industry is ****. The naturopaths are supposed to be the good guys, and they'd have you buy several hundred dollars worth of their products every month for MTHFR.

I want to rid myself of these PVCs, but you can't trust them. Please guys, any suggestions for dealing with PVCs (or palpitaitons in general) is greatly welcomed. When I deal with them, I can get off two of my meds. The last is going to be Klonopin and that's just going to be riding out a month of hell. Now I want to deal with the PVCs and get off Deplin and Bystolic. 

[Jshect]

When I start to get PVCs I now take Magnesium, Potasium and CoEnzyme10 (I believe) This works pretty well so far. I lowered the Deplin from 15 mg to 14.5 mg. I may also start to taper the Bystolic. I am not sure which one causes me the pain and I start a new job soon, which will be affected by the pain, so I may be wild and taper both. I know I should do just one, but I'd rather have PVCs than pain at a job.

[Altostrata]

I doubt that anyone is going to know anything about Deplin and why you are getting PVCs when you change the dosage. Naturopaths tend to be nicer people than doctors but they'll shine you on just like them.

 

I would be frightened of the PVCs, too.

 

The PVCs may be a legacy of your prior drug cocktail. Your system got used to reacting to drug changes in a certain way, now it has a tendency to do that.

 

Given you were on so many drugs and now you're down to 3, you must have tapered fairly quickly to go off them, and reduced more than one at a time. Your system might not have caught up with the new drug intake yet.

 

What was the last drug you went off before you started changing Deplin, and when did you go off it?

 

Do you take CoQ10 only after the PVCs start? How much do you take?

 

Other than the PVCs, what is your current daily symptom pattern? Do the PVCs occur only when you make a change in your drugs?

 

Please put the current drugs you take in the Drug Interactions Checker http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html and copy and paste the results in this topic.

 

Please do NOT plan on going off Klonopin quickly.

[Wellness]

Jshect

Congratulations on being off so many drugs.  That is a true heartwarming story.  Here are a few comments.

 

You reduced the clonazepam very rapidly and it is very possible that you are experiencing withdrawal symptoms.  I doubt very much that a SSRI is going to touch the depression that is typical of benzo withdrawal.

 

Another lesser know symptom of benzo withdrawal is pain.  While you were working out, you could have injured and not known because the pain would have been masked by the clonazepam.  Joint, and muscle stiffness and spasms are very common.    While the pain subsides over the coming months, you may want to stick to non impact gentle exercise, like swimming or aquafit.

 

I think you were extremely lucky to be able to go from 2 mg clonazepam to 0.25 mg with only a handful of symptoms.   The anxiety, depression, insomnia, and pain I could attribute to benzo withdrawal.

 

The suggestion that you hold at 0.25mg clonazepam is really very sensible.  If you decrease you could see an increase in symptoms. Regardless of your course of action, I would expect the symptoms you have described to last for at least several months.  Until you are off the drugs for a year or two, don't let anyone diagnose you with anything, doctors are trigger happy when it comes to diagnoses.

[Jshect]

This sucks. The pain is bad. It's in my feet, ankles, Achilles tendon, calves, hamstrings, occasionally abs and back. It comes and goes. It's pressure sensitive. When I lay in bed, whatever part of my body that is touching the bed starts to hurt and twitch. How long should I wait before I taper again? Any advice on the pain. The worst is that my sister, who handles our finances, doesn't want to hear anything about medication or pain. It's so frustrating.

[Altostrata]

Don't complain to your sister about your problems or, if you do, don't expect any sympathy.

 

Please answer these questions:

 

....

Given you were on so many drugs and now you're down to 3, you must have tapered fairly quickly to go off them, and reduced more than one at a time. Your system might not have caught up with the new drug intake yet.

 

What was the last drug you went off before you started changing Deplin, and when did you go off it?

 

Do you take CoQ10 only after the PVCs start? How much do you take?

 

Other than the PVCs, what is your current daily symptom pattern? Do the PVCs occur only when you make a change in your drugs?

 

Please put the current drugs you take in the Drug Interactions Checker http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html and copy and paste the results in this topic.

 

Please do NOT plan on going off Klonopin quickly.

 

Are you taking fish oil and magnesium?

[Jshect]

The last drug I went completely off was the Loxapine. I went off that rather quickly too, because I thought it was responsible for the remainder of my pain.

If there are no PVCs, i take 100 mg CoQ10, If there are PVCs I'll take 200 or 300 mg. 

Now, I am holding steady at .25 mg Klonopin. I've cut back to 13.6 mg Deplin and a half of a pill of bystolic, so 1.25 of a 2.5 mg pill.

Cutting back on the Deplin and Bystolic is going rather well.

I take fish oil and magnesium.

The worst regular symptom is the strange pain. I try to do very little, to not cause pain. It sucks because I want to start hiking.

Aleve does help with the pain, but only temporarily.

 

Thanks being here guys, I really appreciate it

[Altostrata]

When did you go off loxapine?

 

Does the CoQ10 stop the PVCs when you take 200mg-300mg?

 

Did you change the Deplin dosage and Bystolic dosage at the same time?

 

Please answer the remaining questions. Are you keeping notes on paper of your daily symptom pattern and drug dosage? You need to do this.

 

....

 

Other than the PVCs, what is your current daily symptom pattern? Do the PVCs occur only when you make a change in your drugs?

 

Please put the current drugs you take in the Drug Interactions Checker http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html and copy and paste the results in this topic.

 

Please do NOT plan on going off Klonopin quickly.

[Jshect]

Hi guys, I am now ready to start tapering the Klonopin again. All I am on is the klonopin. I am also on vitamin, but as far as psychiatric drugs, just Klonopin. I haven't taken CoQ10 in a while. I take magnesium and potassium, B2 and B12 because I'm deficient, sometimes other electrolytes if I'm feeling PVCs. Here's the post I put on the benzo section:

 

This has been hell, but I am down to .25 mg Klonopin. The last taper from .375 to .25 was horrific. I've had insomnia, anxiety, depression, pain (muscle spasms, my ankle feels like it's in a lock, very bizarre. the pain is pressure sensitive so I constantly have to shift around in bed.), nausea.

 

I've found a few things that helped: inflammation and pain: ginger, turmeric, baswallia, 

                                                         anxiety and sleep: ease pearl and spirit pearl (eastern medicine formulas)

 

I may do a micro-taper now. I read about it on benzo buddies. 100 days seems kind of long. I might create a suspension for 50 and see how I do.

 

Any advice?

[Fresh]

Hi Jshect ,

 

On 5 March , you wrote:

"The last drug I went completely off was the Loxapine. I went off that rather quickly too, because I thought it was responsible for the remainder of my pain"

 

What date did you cease that? How did you taper? Please add this information to your signature so that it can be seen clearly at a glance.

 

Please answer Alto's questions posted 5 March:

Posted 05 March 2016 - 10:42 AM

"When did you go off loxapine?

Does the CoQ10 stop the PVCs when you take 200mg-300mg?

Did you change the Deplin dosage and Bystolic dosage at the same time?

Please answer the remaining questions."

 

 

"Posted 07 April 2016 - 07:51 AM

Hi guys, I am now ready to start tapering the Klonopin again. All I am on is the klonopin."

 

So have you stopped taking deplin and bystolic in the past month?

Please update your signature.

 

No one can offer you advice until we are clear on what's been going on.

 

bw , Fresh

[Jshect]

Sorry, I believe I last took the Loxapine in February, so I've been off it around 2 months. It seemed to be a combination of the CoQ10 100-200mg plus the electrolytes that helped contain the heart palpitations. I started lowering the Deplin by .04 mg a day. Now I just occasionally lower it by .02. I lowered the bystolic by increments of 1/4 pill. When I would lower the Bystolic, I would generally hold off on the Deplin taper.

Now, the only psychiatric meds I am on are Deplin and Klonopin.

I am taking some herbs. The Eastern Practitioner has given me some herbal formulas that work excellently: Ease Pearl- anxiety, Spirit Pearl- insomnia, bamboo pearl - pain. He says they don't have any major interactions or withdrawal symptoms. 

I'm so desperate now, I don't know if I can take another sleepless night with pain, anxiety, and nausea, I really don't.

I just can't even imagine myself tapering again, but I know I have too. The micro-taper sounds good, I wish I would have done that all along, though I can't fathom making this final taper 100 days. 

I'm on .25 mg Klonopin. How many days do you think I should take to taper this?

Also, I am trying to start an account with benzo buddies, I registered and they never sent me the confirmation password. It's been 24 hours now. 

[Jshect]

Does anyone on here recommend and place for impatient treatment, or partial-day treatment, if things get bad?

I hear mainly bad things about drug treatment centers though.

[Fresh]

Could you provide some dates please.

 

If you've just been decreasing deplin and bystolic (beta-blocker), and ceased loxapine (anti-psychotic)6 weeks ago , it's not adviseable to

start tapering klonipin yet.

 

You might go to the "Members' Only Benzo Forum" for advice on tapering klonipin.

[Jshect]

I'm sorry, I will try to find the dates. I just get tired of thinking, talking, taking, or doing anything associated with these medications. I cannot believe I was put on these barbaric substances to help "cope" with mental illness. I've been in hell, in pain with insomnia and gut-wrenching anxiety. It's like these medications have become my identity. I need to get off of these and put this part of my life behind me.

[Fresh]

Have things gotten worse since you stopped taking loxapine?

 

I understand how annoying this whole thing is. Consider doing your signature like an investment in your health.

The better clear summary you can provide , the better position the moderators are in to understand what

might be going on for you. There's no point anyone making suggestions without a solid basic understanding

of your unique journey. And it's a bit much to expect readers to pour through your thread ;looking for clues.

 

Don't stress , you can put approximate dates , just write (approx) next to them.

[Jshect]

Yes, I am scatterbrained, I had a very good summary of my experience (that needed to be updated) which, I in a momentary lapse of judgement, deleted. I'll go through and update it. Let me ask a question here that I asked in the benzo section, as I really need an answer:

 

"What is the deal with the scientific literature on Benzo and Klonopin tapering. My sister is a research professor and she read through a variety of studies which lead her to conclude that You can just make .25 mg cuts to Klonopin every week of two until you are off and that shouldn't be a problem. My psychiatrist seems to think similarly. They think my withdrawal symptoms are psychosomatic and related to depression. I don't think so. The writings in the forums, in the guides and from the users, seem to mirror my own horrific experience. Why is there such a disconnect between our experiences and the scientific literature? can anyone provide me with studies showing that you need to do extremely slow tapers and that the withdrawal symptoms are horrific so I can show them?"

 

Unfortunately, my sister handles my finances now, and her and my psychiatrist want me to go on more medicine. I think I have to comply, after all my sister has my money. So just like voting, I'm going to have to chose the lesser of two evils. I can go on an SSRI or buspar and lamictal. Does anyone have any good, scientifically backed writings to convince them that pharmaceuticals are not the way?

 

Yes, things have gotten worse since I got off the Loxapine. Unfortunately, the Loxapine seemed to interact strongly with the Klonopin. When I taper from the Loxapine, I often get intense Klonopin withdrawals. I tapered successfully off of Wellbutrin (I'll check when) maybe 5 months ago. When I tapered off of it the pain I had for years got better, so I delightfully started exercising again. Then I started getting other bad pain. I panicked and tapered rapidly off of the Loxapine (unfortunately I have a tendency to do impulsive things like that occasionally), I didn't want to but I had told I would cut the Klonopin on, I believe February 15th. So I did, and that was when things got really bad. I wonder if I should ask my psychiatrist if I could go back up to from .25 to .375 mg Klonopin? It's been since February 15th so I don't know if I should ask to do that, or hold and see if things get better. Oh what a mess.

[Jshect]

Yes, I'm so stupid. I tapered off bystolic and loxapine while tapering off of Klonopin. Bystolic can reduce the muscle spasm and pain. Perhaps I should go back on one of those, what do you guys think? I'm sorry I didn't check in here. I'm reading 5 million different things. Unfortunately, I was not aware just how bad benzo tapering can be. UGG!

[Altostrata]

jshect, you've come a long way from being on -- was it 7 drugs???

 

Surely your sister must see that was a very bad idea.

 

After all your drug changes, if I were you, I'd hold on making any more changes for a while. You might tell your sister and your psychiatrist you intend to stabilize on your current cocktail and Eastern medicine (true) and get back to them if you think you'll need anything else.

 

What is Buspar and Lamictal supposed to treat?

 

The medical literature that educated them is incomplete regarding adverse effects of drugs. If I were you, I would not argue about tapering with either your sister or doctor. If you're complaining to them about anxiety, etc., their solution is always going to be more drugs. So why are you complaining to them? They're not going to fix you any other way.

 

Why does your sister think you need psychiatric help? Why does she manage your finances? You might start a topic in Relationships to discuss this.

 

Very good to hear you've finally minimized your drugs and the palpitations have stopped.

[Jshect]

Just for now take my word that I have to let my sister in on my issues. I'll try to think of how to best describe our situation and write it in relationships. She is a brilliant lawyer and research professor, whose right about so many things, she tends to think she's right about everything. ANy medication side effect is psychosomatic to her and not related to the medicine. She trusts the peer reviewed literature. Please, just give me the name or a link to something, with peer-reviewed sources, that could convince her how bad benzo withdrawals are. I read through some of the Ashton Manual and that didn't even seem to do it justice. I'll read more. This is a ******* nightmare.

I read through some of the studies through Google scholar and they were obviously trying to downplay the dangers of benzos. You go on benzo forums and you hear more stories like mine. It's like two different worlds. I tried to create an account on benzo buddies and it never sent me the confirmation link. I had it resent to no avail, and I tried to create a new account and it said you can't register twice from the same computer.

Yes, I've got to check in with you guys before I make meds changes. I'm just scatter-brained and a lot of the time I just make changes, and I don't think to ask you. I have a lot of issues like that. My memories not great, or at least it fluctuates.

[Jshect]

 

What is Buspar and Lamictal supposed to treat?

 

 

My psychiatrist just asked if there were any drugs that I had good experiences on. Lamictal made me very upbeat and chatty, though it had side effects like increased anxiety. My communication was never clearer though on Lamictal. But... I don't know. I don't know what to do. It's just crazy. How can two people, so intelligent, as my sister and my psychiatrist, get so fooled by the medical industry. What did they teach her in medical school? Is it seven years of lies? There must be some good to some of these medications. How could they be so deceived?

[Altostrata]

That question -- about so many people being deceived by psychiatric drugs -- is the basis of a huge amount of commentary and a "crisis" in psychiatry itself. It's because of very effective propaganda by the pharmaceutical industry.

 

About tapering, see this book: "The Antidepressant Solution" by Joseph Glenmullen, MD, a Harvard psychiatrist.

 

See papers here http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/317-important-topics-in-journals-and-scientific-sources/

 

2001 Antidepressant discontinuation syndromes: common, under-recognised and not always benign

 

Guides to tapering off psychiatric medications

 

However, you may not be able to convince your sister or psychiatrist no matter how many papers you show them. People have a religious belief in the drugs.

 

The best way to convince them you don't need drugs is to say you're doing okay as you are, and act like it.

[ChessieCat]

"There must be some good to some of these medications."

 

It sounds like you might have a small bit of doubt.

 

Video:  Irving Kirsch:  Emperor's New Drugs:  Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect (1 hour 20 minutes)

 

Video:  Ex-Big Pharma Rep:  We’re Trained To Misinform -The Drugs ARE Dangerous (6 minute video)

Interview:  Confessions of an Rx Drug Pusher (51 minutes Gwen Olsen - ex pharmaceutical representative)

 

 

This is very interesting:

 

Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect by Irving Kirsch (link to full article)

Abstract:

Antidepressants are supposed to work by fixing a chemical imbalance, specifically, a lack of serotonin in the brain.  Indeed, their supposed effectiveness is the primary evidence for the chemical imbalance theory.  But analyses of the published data and the unpublished data that were hidden by drug companies reveals that most (if not all) of the benefits are due to the placebo effect.  Some antidepressants increase serotonin levels, some decrease it, and some have no effect at all on serotonin.  Nevertheless, they all show the same therapeutic benefit.  Even the small statistical difference between antidepressants and placebos may be an enhanced placebo effect, due to the fact that most patients and doctors in clinical trials successfully break blind.  The serotonin theory is as close as any theory in the history of science to having been proved wrong.  Instead of curing depression, popular antidepressants may induce a biological vulnerability making people more likely to become depressed in the future.

Excerpt:

How Did These Drugs Get Approved?
....
The FDA requires two adequately conducted clinical trials showing a significant difference between drug and placebo.  But there is a loophole:  there is no limit to the number of trials that can be conducted in search of these two significant trials.  Trials showing negative results simply do not count.  Furthermore, the clinical significance of the findings is not considered.  All that matters is that the results are statistically significant.
....
(NB:  emphasis in abstract and excerpt are mine)

[nz11]

Sorry to read of your plight.

 

cc posted an excellent response while i was typing mine. But still gonna post mine too.

 

Perhaps your sister might like to read 'Anatomy of an epidemic' by R Whitaker, or

Psychiatric drug withdrawal ' by P Breggin

 

As a lawyer she might enjoy/be enlightened/be 'soul wrenched' by reading the court deposition attached to the 3 billion dollar fine which GSK was hit with. Its freely available.

GSK smashed all ethics to smithereens. Or those of Peter Breggin who has represented thousands in court for the iatrogenic psychotropic drug harms.

 

Read 'Deadly medicines and organised crime' By P Gotzche.

 

Sadly no one knows a drug like the person who has or is taking it and if a person has never been exposed to this stuff then its almost impossible for them to concieve of the horror show that awaits.

 

These drugs have no right to be called 'medicines' its an insult to the word 'medicines'.

 

Is your sister aware of the lack of ethical behaviour of those who disingenuously claim that they have our healthcare as priority when in actual fact the only thing they are interested in is wealthcare! Poisoned literature is being used as propaganda.

 

"When it comes to dead bodies in current psychotropic trials, there are a greater number of them in the active treatment groups than in the placebo groups. This is quite different from what happens in penicillin trials or trials of drugs that really work."

David Healy, professor of psychiatry at Cardiff University, Wales, 2008.

 

In the 1960's amendments to medical requirements were put in place with the intention to never have another  horrifying thalidomide debacle ever again.

Sadly good intentions have been abused.

 

One of those amendments was that companies demonstrate their products worked in well controlled clinical trials.

Randomised controlled  trials have now become a nefarious tool of abuse by pharmaceutical companies managing to hypnotize doctors and regulators and everyone else. Using statistical sig to fool and hide adverse events.

As a result trial procedures conceal rather than reveal problems.

 

Statistical significance has been turned inside out here is one example only two trials with statistically significant positive results are needed to allow  a pharmaceutical company to put a drug on the market. It's  irrelevant that 202 drug trials were done and 200 trials showed negative results. Yet when the two positive results are investigated data manipulation is rampant.

 

And here's another while dead bodies are piling up in the active drug cohort, and zero dead bodies in the placebo cohort, a simple misscoding of a dead body that places it into the placebo group and a push of the statistical button then abracadabra all dead bodies vanish from the study. They have become statistically insignificant. When billions or bust are at stack it is obvious what the behaviour will be isnt it.

 

Furthermore drug companies refuse to share key information. In addition drug companies have rewarded key academics handsomely to author studies and act as key opinion leaders. Those key opinion leaders and academics manoeuvre themselves so that they become part of a clinical practice guidelines committee pushing their companies drugs as a first line of therapy. Its well documented.

 

Hazards of treatment are kept hidden, covered over by Pharma marketing spin.

The family who complain of a loved one who put a bullet through their head,or others heads, or crashed a plane or jumped off a bridge or hanged themselves or cut their wrists are told that it is anecdotal, such an event is not statistically significant, the science doesn't support the existence of such a risk.

 

"At meetings in the 1950s and 1960s, entire symposia were dedicated to the hazards of new treatments, where now it is as difficult to find mention of a treatments hazard at major academic meetings as it would be to find snow in the Sahara." Healy.

 

Any literature that wants to reveal drug hazards or talk about addictiveness of drugs opens itself up to be sued.

 

Ghostwriting, concealed conflicts of interests, obstruction of legitimate concerns about drugs dangers, and the marketing of diseases to market a medicine are now the norm for pharmaceutical companies.

 

 

Most studies are now sponsored, designed and analyzed in addition to being efficiently written or ghostwritten by pharmaceutical companies.

 

If you were an employer would you hire a person who had behaviour resulting in the amassed fines such as those in Table 4 below yet we dont give it a second thought to trust them with our brains and body.

 

Note the size of these fines and see the units ..millions ...so that is 7.8 billion GSK has been fined. And Pfizer 3.9 billion etc

(Would you like to read about how Lilly set the behaviour template (what does your sister think of this) for those that followed; see,

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7571-☼-nz11-climbs-onboard/?p=215836

 

 

I like to give myself little assignments (while i try to recover from being pharmaceutically assaulted) and i am currently working on and typing up a CV ....no not mine ...

GSK's .............from all the info i've been accumulating.

 

Here's a small excerpt :

• Sept 2014. Fined $489 million for paying over $500 million worth of bribes in China. GSK used a network of more than 700 middlemen and travel agencies to bribe doctors and lawyers with cash and sexual favours. Employees were told to lie to investigators. "There is always a big boss in criminal organisations, and in this case GSK is the big boss.” 2014 Under investigation for bribery in Iraq, Jordan, Poland and Lebanon. May 2014 UK serious Fraud office and US Department of justice announce they have opened separate investigations against GSK.
• 2015, International team revealed that GSK committed fraud, hid side effects in paroxetine’s ghostwritten Study 329. “What they have found is that the fraud and corruption is far worse than anyone ever expected.” 29 July 15, GSK under investigation for bribery in Romania. 

Wanna read  a bit more:

• 2013 A world leader ....topped the list of repeat offenders with total criminal and civil penalties of $7.56 billion since 1991. In the  BMJ 18 Dec 2013 Sidney Wolfe had this to say:.

”These escalating patterns of repeated criminal violations and civil settlements to resolve serious allegations of civil lawlessness hardly bespeak corporate integrity for GSK. We are forced to conclude that neither the current level of penalties nor corporate integrity agreements are effective and that there is a pathological lack of corporate integrity.” 

 

If GSK were an individual they would be unemployable!

       

Looks like they are going to hold this  number one spot for some time.

 

 

It has now become incredibly dangerous to see a psychiatrist (Breggin, Gotzsche).

 

"I believe the SSRI era will stand as one of the most shameful in the history of medicine." Healy.

 

"It is difficult to know what kind of partnership you can have with an organisation that breaches the fundamental norms of science and threatens to sue those who point this out." Healy

 

As Alto points out for some its difficult to break the attachment and fixation to the white coated religion no matter what is presented to them.

Until of course one has tried some of the doctors rosey red apples for themselves...and been iatrogenically harmed. Then its a whole new story.

[nz11]

How can two people, so intelligent, as my sister and my psychiatrist, get so fooled by the medical industry.

 

"Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they are fooled."  Mark Twain.

 

Fooling people has been going on for quite some time.

 

"Ladies, if you desire a transparent, clear and fresh complexion, use Dr Bourdon's French Arsenic Complexion Wafers"

Advertisement in  The Union- Gazette 1899. 

 

I read somewhere that advertising is the best way to sell goods especially if they are useless.

 

Perhaps another way to put it is the best way to peddle drugs is to use an indoctrinated middle man who is paid kickbacks and handsomely reimbursed, given lots of free food and the occasional free trip, a free deskpad, pens and a wall clock!