alizarin: Debilitating Insomnia Help

[alizarin]

A good doctor of any type is hard to find.

 

Next time you see that psychiatrist, you might firmly and respectfully disagree about her opinion of "psychological insomnia."

 

Any doctor can prescribe Remeron or Klonopin, it doesn't have to be a psychiatrist.

 

Crossing over to Restoril makes no sense at all.

I agree that good doctors are hard to find. In my quest, I've yet to find one.

That's the first time I hear anyone use such a vague 'diagnosis', what does that even mean? The insomnia is now psychological, really? Sadly, I've been everywhere from sleep specialists to therapists, to psychiatrists... now I've been referred to a hypnotherapist (by the psychiatrist). Should I even bother?

 

I don't even know, truly, what the root of my insomnia is. If only I did. I can only assume it's Lexapro w/d but again, I can't be sure.

 

I'm 36, I don't want to have to go on disability. I just want my life back!

 

Right now, the dp/dr is horrid and I fear that all this sleep deprivation is causing me permanent brain damage as I can't problem solve or come close to thinking creatively like I once did. I've developed this bad habit recenty where I subconsciously keep thinking of the past, every second, I arrive at a past memory of times when I was "well", when I could do some such thing, etc. I can't make this stop and it's hurting me a lot.

[alizarin]

I would never C/O to Restoril from Klonopin. I declined her offer, of course, and she was a bit upset as a result. Her reasoning for the C/O is that Klonopin is not a "sleep drug".

No, it's mostly for anxiety but that's besides the point! I don't even want to imagine all the w/d symptoms I'd have to go through to do that kind of C/O. It's just not worth it and totally nonsensical.

[Wildflower0214]

I am also suffering from insomnia.

Mine is because of those electric pulses all over my body that I can't seem to get to go away. I pray you find an answer and soon. I can't tolerate anything that would help me.

so, Im here at the moment. I can't even remember where I am half the time. U are not alone!

Be well.

[Wildflower0214]

Yes! Do the hypnotherapist! Don't stop trying. There is also neurofeedback which works for some, also I was looking into something called SleepTracks. It seems pretty interesting. I'm not sure it would work for me as being sleepy enough is not the issue for me. It's "crawly electric" sensations.

[alizarin]

Update: I noticed, as it was the only med that was changed, that the drop to zero of anti-thyroid medication has severely impacted my insomnia for the worse. I was told to drop the anti-thyroid meds on Tuesday and resume with only one on Sunday. As directed by my endocrinologist, I began taking 1 pill (50mgs) on Sunday and these last two nights have been the worst for me in terms of sleep. I can literally feel my body is anxious whereas when I was in hypo state and although I was tired, I was actually sleeping more. Again, this is the only medication that was changed. I've kept the Remeron and Klonopin exactly the same as suggested here on SA (although I really want to taper off both). I'm in so much pain and suffering that I don't really see the point in sticking with the Remeron. I mean, what's wors than no sleep, negative sleep?

 

I used to rely on my mind as it was sharp and rigorous. Now I'm petrified that half a year of insomnia has caused me brain damage.

[alizarin]

Hi,

 

Being "sleepy enough", as you said, is also not an issue for me. Neither is sleep onset. What is, however, is sleep maintenance. Once I wake up from whatever minutes of sleep I managed to have, I cannot fall asleep again. It's been like this since May 8th, 2014.

Yes! Do the hypnotherapist! Don't stop trying. There is also neurofeedback which works for some, also I was looking into something called SleepTracks. It seems pretty interesting. I'm not sure it would work for me as being sleepy enough is not the issue for me. It's "crawly electric" sensations.

[alizarin]

Please, someone answer: will reinstating Lexapro help with sleep? Please, from anyone who has been on the drug and reinstated in the past!

 

Also, will switching from Remeron to Seroquel help me sleep?

 

I know these are unpopular questions to ask here, but I am losing grasp on reality and in need of guidance.

[Wildflower0214]

I don't believe the Lexepro will help.

And I don't believe that switching drugs is wise.

 

I'm awake as well. Second night this week. And when I do sleep it's minimal. I can't seem to tolerate anything that helps others either.

 

Epsom Salt baths, valerian, kava kava, Gaba, passion flower, ltheanine, insolitol, melatonin, these things seem to help people.

Most I react to.

 

Have you looked into neurofeedback? it is supposed to work well. Seriously, look it up. Most notice a difference after one session.

I have no idea what is causing this. I will pray for you. Just hold on. Hold on. Don't give up

[Meimeiquest]

Please, someone answer: will reinstating Lexapro help with sleep? Please, from anyone who has been on the drug and reinstated in the past!

 

Also, will switching from Remeron to Seroquel help me sleep?

 

I know these are unpopular questions to ask here, but I am losing grasp on reality and in need of guidance.

At this point in your hypersensitivity, I don't think anyone can predict what will happen with any medication change you might make. I believe low-dose Seroquel is intended to act as a strong anti-histamine. You could search the archives here on low-dose lamotrigine....it has been used as a not-altogether-predictable treatment for serious WD symptoms. I am really sorry for your troubles.

[alizarin]

At the end of my rope, cannot cope with crippling depression and insomnia any longer. Total lost sense of identity, uncontrollable crying spells, willing to do anything for some sleep.

Will take Seroquel tonight out of desperation. Never imagined reality could reach such blackened depths.

[Petunia]

I'm so sorry that withdrawal has brought you to this point of desperation, I've been at that place, so I know what its like.  Unfortunately, we're not able to advise you about new medications for symptoms, only about how to taper current medications.  From my own past experience, I can say that adding drugs and taking rescue doses irregularly made my situation much worse in the long run.  But that was before I found this site and didn't know any different.

 

At this point in your hypersensitivity, I don't think anyone can predict what will happen with any medication change you might make.

 

 

Stability is important, so if you decide to add another drug, please take it regularly and do let us know how you are doing.  If you start taking seroquel, it will need to be carefully tapered when you want to stop taking it.

 

I hope you find some relief soon

[alizarin]

Spat out Seroquel last night in a final moment of uncertainty. It seems that's all I'm composed of. I suppose there's also anhedonia and massive depersonalization/ derealization.  Additionally, there's the added bonus of not being able to distinguish between 'neuro-emotions' and my own sentiments. If I listen to a song and cry, is that sadness mine or a result of pills? I know there's articles on SA regarding this but it's not so easy for me to distinguish. Prior to meds, I was a somewhat melancholic persona and I believe it's perfectly normal to be sensitive. I do know I was not crying daily. And I perfectly am aware of the fact that prior to my hyperthyroid symptoms, I didn't even know what a panic attack was. As a matter of fact, I never had a panic attack upon Graves' diagnosis. I suppose I can state that I'm aware of what a panic attack is now, at least I can thank psychiatry for the knowledge.

 

If the depression is this gruesome now, I can't fathom what it will be like when I taper the Klonopin to a considerable amount. Ultimately, I don't even know if I will honestly survive this ordeal.

[Meimeiquest]

I know it is all black now, understandably so, but I am sure a controlled taper of anything will be easier than the instability you are going through right now. Just try to get through this one day at a time, the rest will be easier.

[alizarin]

I know it is all black now, understandably so, but I am sure a controlled taper of anything will be easier than the instability you are going through right now. Just try to get through this one day at a time, the rest will be easier.

When should I begin a taper?

[Meimeiquest]

IMO, when you are well enough to be settled working again.

[Wildflower0214]

Spat out Seroquel last night in a final moment of uncertainty. It seems that's all I'm composed of. I suppose there's also anhedonia and massive depersonalization/ derealization. Additionally, there's the added bonus of not being able to distinguish between 'neuro-emotions' and my own sentiments. If I listen to a song and cry, is that sadness mine or a result of pills? I know there's articles on SA regarding this but it's not so easy for me to distinguish. Prior to meds, I was a somewhat melancholic persona and I believe it's perfectly normal to be sensitive. I do know I was not crying daily. And I perfectly am aware of the fact that prior to my hyperthyroid symptoms, I didn't even know what a panic attack was. As a matter of fact, I never had a panic attack upon Graves' diagnosis. I suppose I can state that I'm aware of what a panic attack is now, at least I can thank psychiatry for the knowledge.

 

If the depression is this gruesome now, I can't fathom what it will be like when I taper the Klonopin to a considerable amount. Ultimately, I don't even know if I will honestly survive this ordeal.

I did not sleep at all last night, skin is burning, body jolts everytime I fall asleep. I'm scared. Can't take meds to help or any supplements. We both need a miracle. I'm becoming weary.

[alizarin]

IMO, when you are well enough to be settled working again.

How will I ever be able to sleep again in order to be able to work? I apologize for the seeming redundancy, but if I'm not "well enough to be settled working again" by March, I'll be out of a job. Not simply a job, I suppose, my entire career. Everything I strived for in college will be pulverized.

[alizarin]

Slept the usual 45 minutes, and as I woke, took half a magnesium pill and 2 Calms Forte in (vain) attempts to fall asleep again. Decided to have breakfast, experiencing major DP/ DR. I suppose the almond milk with a tinge of coffee triggered the nausea, although I was already nauseated in bed. The DP/ DR refuses to vacate and is coupled by immense fear. I feel as though my time is quickly dissipating, and I've no strength to endure further months of insomnia. 

 

If I no longer have the mental capacity and coordination necessary to create, I should just accept that it might be my time. I'd only be obliterating my memory, all that I'm merely composed of, which pathetically aches for the comfort of my dead mother.  When my thoughts oscillate elsewhere, I imagine scenarios where I'm ferociously screaming at everyone who has ever physically or verbally assaulted my soul, and I want them to at least realize their faults. Otherwise I just long for a silenced mind and a restful body, neither of which will emerge in this reality.

 

I didn't know what I was doing when I CTed the Lexapro. Had I known, I would have never touched it. Honestly, I would have never even attempted to taper it, had I known it would destroy my sleep. Sleep was the one comfort I had been afforded all my life when things became difficult. I could tolerate deaths, losses, cruelties, and a myriad of other scenarios I can't disclose here, because I always had an exit. Now, the torture is incessantly cyclical and I'm finding that with each passing day, I see no point to this conflict.

[Wildflower0214]

I'm so sorry. Please hold on.

[bubble]

Dear Alizarin,

 

I feel for you very much. As I said, we are approximately the same age and I also took Lexapro and suffered a lot after I stopped taking it. I reinstated but after 40 days when things got unbearable. I think we all agree with what Meimei wrote: 

At this point in your hypersensitivity, I don't think anyone can predict what will happen with any medication change you might make.

 

Just please don't give up hope. Everything that is happening to you no matter how awful is just a temporary state. It will inevitably change. Is your sleep pattern the same all the time or are there any variations? I honestly don't know what effect reinstating a tiny amount of Lexapro would have at this point. Petu had a bad experience. reinstating usually affects acute withdrawal symptoms such as anxiety and a whole set of physical symptoms. Insomnia belongs to the group of symptoms associated with protracted withdrawal along with anhedonia which take the longest to fade away. Have you noticed any however slight improvement or at least a change in you pattern of insomnia?

 

I will go back and study the whole of your thread but I'm quite tired now. I just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about you. You will make it.

[Meimeiquest]

I have been thinking of you, too. I worked nights early in my life and wasn't careful with sleep...I have never been where you are but I do know a taste of sleeplessness virtually to the point of trauma. And especially trying to make decisions in that state...it is very hard and we would certainly take it away if we could.

 

Here are some thoughts: While no one on the internet can predict what a med change might do, if you kind of go inside yourself and feel like one is needed, that might be the right thing to do. By making a dosing mistake, I raised my dose once when the collective wisdom was to hold still, and it totally "unstuck" me. But no one could predict that. It could have been disastrous. The only thing I am sure of is that if you decide to change something, do it in tiny bits, so you don't throw yourself one way or the other.

 

How do you spend the 23 hours you are awake? That would be so tough. I think it might help to try to do really awake things in the middle of the day, and more quiet things in the dark. You need to somehow get back to a circadian rhythm. You can get amber glasses to decrease blue light in the dark hours and that helps some people. When you are in bed, make sure your room is totally dark.

 

Is there any chance you could get some massage therapy? Being stuck home alone must be so lonely. I think the touch would be helpful. I had one recently free from my chiro's therapist. I just started crying in the middle. If I were to do it regularly, I would tell the therapist that I am going thigh a hard time, and I might cry...please just keep on going if that happens. You, of course, can do whatever you want, but I think they give you choices on how much talking, etc. you want.

 

Another thought I have is something I haven't done, cognitive behavioral therapy. Many here have greatly benefitted, and I think it could really help you in meeting your March goal.

 

Post when you can, we are thinking of you.

[bubble]

I  just found this one old post by Alto. I know you must have tried all the supplements but just in case

 

 

The orthomolecular folks swear by large amounts of niacin at night for sleep. Niacin can cause flushing and maybe itching, which some people find intolerable. Niacinamide is gentler. I get niacinamide in 100mg tablets (Source Naturals) and take 100mg in the morning and another 200mg at night, on the theory it will contribute to relaxation into sleep.

 

 

Here is the whole thread

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/43-vitamin-b3-niacin-niacinamide/

 

Also see this although you probably have: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/189-melatonin-for-sleep/

[alizarin]

Bubble, Meime, JDM: appreciate your concern.

 

At this point, I'm just making calls. Last night, I called my best friend of 15 + years, having had a perplexing falling out with years back. I apologized, took the blame without even caring, and was just appreciative to hear the person's voice. Person has gone about life, which I'm glad about, and actually succeeded tapering 8 mgs of Klonopin in person's 20s. But person could not quite understand my situation, which is alright as long as ends are on good terms. Also attempted to do the same with another acquaintance, but she's a bit sarcastic and catty so it's difficult to know if my apology was accepted. Again, all blame on me, it does not matter. I have one more person on the list to go, who will also be difficult due to similar temperament, but I need to try.

 

After that's done, I need to organize other areas of my 'previous life' and that's it. There's nothing left for me to do. I have never been religious, though I'm certainly tolerant of others and their beliefs, so there's no heaven or hell for me to worry about. It's merely the loss of a (precariously woven) gossamer of memories: my mind. I refuse to tolerate torture for much longer.

 

As for questions...

 

 

Have you noticed any however slight improvement or at least a change in you pattern of insomnia?

No improvement. Sleep is between 45 minutes -1 hour per night. I believe I was getting a few more minutes when my thyroid turned hypo (as a result of overmedication). Otherwise, no change. Bubble, thank you so very much for taking the time to read and respond to my inquiries.

 

Meime's questions:

 

How do you spend the 23 hours you are awake?

Answering this is a bit painful, as it forces me to process and consciously confront the extent of loss in vitality and quality of life. My 23 hours of 'living' primarily consist of thinking, mostly flashbacks of things I have done, people I have known, conversations I have had. I have developed this habit of constantly rewinding life in my mind to when I was healthy and progressing towards goals. I cannot escape doing this. But for most of the day, I simply think (and think, and think) about my past. When my head feels as if it's exploding, I do have to take painkillers, as the migraines have worsened due to insomnia. There are other tasks I try to complete but cannot disclose here as it would reveal too much, so for that I apologize.

I need to depend on others for rides and am out of financial savings, so no to CBT or massages.

 

Right now, I am either contemplating the reinstatement of Lexapro or going on a low dose (anti-histamine) Seroquel. This is unpopular here, I realize, but I am beyond desperate. Promise not to ask AD related questions here anymore. Meime, thank you very much for your concern and time.

[alizarin]

I find it so strange how insomnia hit me 1.5 years after stopping Lexapro. Perhaps it was bound to happen later on anyhow, but it's quite an enigma, at least to me.

[alizarin]

I  just found this one old post by Alto. I know you must have tried all the supplements but just in case

 

 

The orthomolecular folks swear by large amounts of niacin at night for sleep. Niacin can cause flushing and maybe itching, which some people find intolerable. Niacinamide is gentler. I get niacinamide in 100mg tablets (Source Naturals) and take 100mg in the morning and another 200mg at night, on the theory it will contribute to relaxation into sleep.

 

 

Here is the whole thread

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/43-vitamin-b3-niacin-niacinamide/

 

Also see this although you probably have: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/189-melatonin-for-sleep/

Bubble,

 

I have not tried it due to fear of heart palpitations. I take magnesium, Calms Forte, fish oil, and I need to take a B12 (in the morning, it doesn't activate me) as I'm vegan.

 

Edit: Also, no melatonin as it makes me nauseous. My nausea is, at the moment, masked by the effects of Remeron. So is lack of appetite and GI symptoms. But the nausea is triggered even under Remeron by certain drinks if they contain sugar and some supplements. I'm gluten/ dairy-free but I recall one afternoon, a neighbor brought me some organic coconut water and it made me incredibly nauseous, then I checked and of course it contained sugar. It was a pleasant treat, though, as I restrict myself from mostly everything these days.

[Altostrata]

Taurine is good for palpitations, too, see our discussion about this in Symptoms.

 

Are you sensitive to fructose?
 

[alizarin]

Taurine is good for palpitations, too, see our discussion about this in Symptoms.

 

Are you sensitive to fructose?

 

Hi Alto,

 

Thank you for visiting my thread. I did read about taurine but have to tried it. I can always give it a try when I reduce the Remeron and Klonopin as I will definitely be needing all the help I can get. I'm sensitive to fructose, yes. Today, I had one Ritz cracker and within seconds, was going through some heavy DP/ DR. I can only tolerate extremely clean (all organic) whole foods, mostly vegetables and some fruits as well as quinoa. Petrified of seeing a gastroenterologist.

[mammaP]

Hi Alizarin, I totally empathise with you. Withdrawal insomnia is different and unrelenting. I've 

struggled with it too. I know the feeling when you feel like you could just die from sleep deprivation

and even dyeing would be a welcome relief!  I never found anything that significantly helped me except

magnesium glycinate and taurine together at night. I still have periods of total insomnia lasting a few days

but do get some sleep most nights. I tend to sleep in 90 minute blocks and if I get 2x 90 minute sleeps that is

a good night but I can cope with that.  I then get a few days when I just crash out and sleep, again in 90

minute blocks but up to 4 times a day, then that stops and I am ok with my 90 mins twice a night for a while. 

I can function on that but it would be amazing to get a good nights sleep! 

 

I just want to reassure you that this will pass, it will get better. When it is this bad I find that going to bed and 

sleeping for even just a few minutes is best, at least you will be getting some sleep however little, whatever time

it is. If your eyes are closing, let them. I hope you can get some much needed sleep very soon. 

[Altostrata]

alizarin, you may be interested in the various special diet topics in the Symptoms and Self-Care forum http://tinyurl.com/3hq949z
 

[alizarin]

Being concerned about insurance and having sufficient poison to conduct AD and benzo tapers thoroughly, I asked the psychiatrist I (sporadically) see if she would, when and if necessary, assist me with the legal documentation for disability. I'm 36, disability is the LAST thing I want. I would much prefer to keep my career and activities, I'm just ensuring I have a realistic plan if my ideals falter. She was quite eager to mention that she could definitely help me and ensure I'd be put on disability due to what she'd state. So I'm assuming it will be quite a dramatic and incredulous document listing all the mental diagnoses I must have, like "psychological insomnia", the latest addition to my repertoire of illnesses.

Truly, if I could just sort this sleep issue, I'd tolerate any withdrawal symptom and return to work. I already did when I thought I was going through benzo tolerance. Brain zaps, constant vertigo, migraines that warranted an MRI, DP/ DR, panic attacks, fear, intrusive thoughts. I endured these while working and I was OK. Absolutely not jovial like a cheshire cat, but it was tolerable. Not with insomnia. Once the insomnia attacked, it seems I've been trapped in a David Lynch film ever since. I also wasn't experiencing ideations before. I now experience them daily.

 

I was given Propranolol 4/5 days before I stopped sleeping. One of its side effects is sleeplessness. The propranolol and more of the anti-thyroid med I'm taking now were, at the moment of my insomnia onset, the only meds that were altered. This is important to me because it makes the insomnia issue more difficult to decipher in terms of its cause.  Was the insomnia triggered by the med change or the Lexapro withdrawal. I know I was still experiencing withdrawal at the time, so was it a combination of both? I ruminate through this daily.

 

The uncertainty of not knowing if sleep will ever come again as it once did is what triggers panic. My birthday is approaching and over half a year of my life has been WASTED in the name of insomnia. Furthermore, I've still a Remeron taper (more insomnia) and finally, 2 mgs of Klonopin (1 mg which was given to me without my consent in the hospital).

[alizarin]

alizarin, you may be interested in the various special diet topics in the Symptoms and Self-Care forum http://tinyurl.com/3hq949z

 

Thank you, Alto, I've read them.

[alizarin]

Hi Alizarin, I totally empathise with you. Withdrawal insomnia is different and unrelenting. I've 

struggled with it too. I know the feeling when you feel like you could just die from sleep deprivation

and even dyeing would be a welcome relief!  I never found anything that significantly helped me except

magnesium glycinate and taurine together at night. I still have periods of total insomnia lasting a few days

but do get some sleep most nights. I tend to sleep in 90 minute blocks and if I get 2x 90 minute sleeps that is

a good night but I can cope with that.  I then get a few days when I just crash out and sleep, again in 90

minute blocks but up to 4 times a day, then that stops and I am ok with my 90 mins twice a night for a while. 

I can function on that but it would be amazing to get a good nights sleep! 

 

I just want to reassure you that this will pass, it will get better. When it is this bad I find that going to bed and 

sleeping for even just a few minutes is best, at least you will be getting some sleep however little, whatever time

it is. If your eyes are closing, let them. I hope you can get some much needed sleep very soon. 

Thanks for your reassurance.

I cannot sleep in the manner you describe. But thanks for the suggestions.

[alizarin]

To anyone with experience with protracted w/d: What is the average for protracted withdrawal in terms of years for insomnia? One, two, three...?

[Altostrata]

We don't know. Your thyroid situation could also be involved.

[alizarin]

Was reading the Remeron taper thread. There's no way I'll be able to come off Remeron and then a strong benzo dose. Not a chance.

[alizarin]

Last night's sleep of a whopping 35 minutes was the worst I've slept thus far. Furthermore, the Calms Forte/ Magnesium combination is no longer easing the night anxiety after too much time being awake. I'm running out of homeopathic cocktails for anxiety, unless fish oil helps at night (I've always taken it in the day for depression), as I've read here, and it requires activation via vitamin E.

 

Sick of not being able to do a damn thing because of this crippling anxiety. No one can help me. I want out of this nightmare which is my reality.