alizarin: Debilitating Insomnia Help

[alizarin]

" In my experience stopping SSRIs after 5 years of cumulative exposure can be risky, and I am not advising anyone who has taken the drugs for 10 years or more to try to stop unless they are willing to risk disabling symptoms." S. Shipko

 

That old entry was controversial and questionable, but of course, it scares readers like me into giving up completely.

 

WHY DID MY DOCTOR NOT BOTHER 1 MINUTE OF HIS TIME TO WARN ME, WHEN I HAD MENTIONED I WAS OFF THE LEXAPRO?

 

I can't go on like this, I'm so desperate.

[Petunia]

Hi Alizarin,

I wish I had an answer for you or could make it easier.  But I'm in much the same situation, I was on Lexapro and other SSRI for over 13 years.  Side effects getting worse over the years.  My doctor wasn't much help either.  I would say I'm in the disabling symptoms category, but they are slowly getting better, very slowly.  I've been through several months of little or no sleep, eventually it started to improve.

 

I just read back through your thread and wanted to mention a few things.  In one post you mentioned adding a little coffee to almond milk.  If you are having any caffeine at all, that could be adding to your insomnia, I had to give it up completely.  Fish oil, can be activating for some people, this is something I've experimented with and at the moment I can't take any at all.

 

MammaP wrote about taurine plus magnesium at night.  This is a combination which also helps me, I'm not certain about this but I think they work together with the magnesium calming the body and the taurine slowing brain activity.  If you haven't tried it already, you may want to try it now.

 

There seems to be a consensus here that the best way to handle withdrawal symptoms is by distraction, so I was concerned to read that you spend a lot of your day just thinking, this can make symptoms worse by causing more anxiety and feelings of sadness and loss.  If you can find something to do which keeps your mind occupied, it seems to help.  Anything which holds your attention, even for a few minutes at a time will help.  Some people watch TV or movies.  I spend much of my day playing mindless online games, watching youtube videos, reading about things I find somewhat interesting, listening to talks.  If you can find some things to keep your mind occupied through the day, I think it may help.  Anything which takes you out of your current reality for a while.

 

There is also the very small possibility that reinstating a small amount of Lexapro might help.  It didn't work for me,  I tried reinstating after I had been off over 2 years and it made me feel much worse, suicidal actually, so I'm not recommending it.  But it sounds like you have been considering it.  If you do decide to try, please only reinstate a minute amount at first, less than 1mg maybe.  When I tried it, I used 2.5mg and it was obviously too much.

 

I can hear your desperation and have been there.  I actually felt that way earlier today, I've been in a bad wave for several weeks now and often feel like I can't go on.  But it does get better and it will for you if you hang on.  Focus on getting through one day/night at a time.

[alizarin]

Hi Alizarin,

I wish I had an answer for you or could make it easier.  But I'm in much the same situation, I was on Lexapro and other SSRI for over 13 years.  Side effects getting worse over the years.  My doctor wasn't much help either.  I would say I'm in the disabling symptoms category, but they are slowly getting better, very slowly.  I've been through several months of little or no sleep, eventually it started to improve.

 

I just read back through your thread and wanted to mention a few things.  In one post you mentioned adding a little coffee to almond milk.  If you are having any caffeine at all, that could be adding to your insomnia, I had to give it up completely.  Fish oil, can be activating for some people, this is something I've experimented with and at the moment I can't take any at all.

 

MammaP wrote about taurine plus magnesium at night.  This is a combination which also helps me, I'm not certain about this but I think they work together with the magnesium calming the body and the taurine slowing brain activity.  If you haven't tried it already, you may want to try it now.

 

There seems to be a consensus here that the best way to handle withdrawal symptoms is by distraction, so I was concerned to read that you spend a lot of your day just thinking, this can make symptoms worse by causing more anxiety and feelings of sadness and loss.  If you can find something to do which keeps your mind occupied, it seems to help.  Anything which holds your attention, even for a few minutes at a time will help.  Some people watch TV or movies.  I spend much of my day playing mindless online games, watching youtube videos, reading about things I find somewhat interesting, listening to talks.  If you can find some things to keep your mind occupied through the day, I think it may help.  Anything which takes you out of your current reality for a while.

 

There is also the very small possibility that reinstating a small amount of Lexapro might help.  It didn't work for me,  I tried reinstating after I had been off over 2 years and it made me feel much worse, suicidal actually, so I'm not recommending it.  But it sounds like you have been considering it.  If you do decide to try, please only reinstate a minute amount at first, less than 1mg maybe.  When I tried it, I used 2.5mg and it was obviously too much.

 

I can hear your desperation and have been there.  I actually felt that way earlier today, I've been in a bad wave for several weeks now and often feel like I can't go on.  But it does get better and it will for you if you hang on.  Focus on getting through one day/night at a time.

Petu,

 

Firstly, thanks for taking your time to provide such a detailed response to my thread as it's highly appreciated and valued.

 

You mention (in the present tense) that your side effects are actually getting worse, could you elaborate on that and what you consider disabling symptoms? Additionally, how many months were you without sleep and how did you manage to recover? I don't intend to bombard you with questions but it's becoming quite a challenge to endure each day and I would more than appreciate a bit of insight into your withdrawal.

 

Concerning the advice on supplementation, thank you. However, regarding the taurine, I need to be careful including anything that may lower my blood pressure. When Trazadone lowered it, I suffered vasovagal syncope and entered the ER with facial lacerations and dental trauma, the latter requiring surgery. So since that incident, I'm very precarious about taking anything new that might trigger a similar response. I do, however, take magnesium and am going to change from chelated to glycine once my current bottle is empty. As far as fish oil, it actually helps me! I thought at first it was just wishful thinking but I've been taking it for over a month now and when I combined it with vitamin E (two weeks ago), I felt the difference. It's the only thing that gets me through depression. Klonopin causes depression, hysterical crying, and, coupled with insomnia, it's pulverizing. But the fish oil/ vitamin E combination really does work for me. There is a post in which Alto recommends it for sleep, entitled "Getting Back to Sleep". I tried it last night but did not include the vitamin E. When I say I add coffee, I'm talking about an actual teaspoon, but I can eliminate it as I've been having it again now for the past few days.

 

I have thought about reinstating the Lexapro at a small dose, yes, but only if it would help my insomnia. My major symptoms are insomnia and I believe that triggers the DP/ DR, which trigger the idealizations. I also believe that the Remeron is masking nausea, a severe lack of appetite, and GI issues. These three symptoms were present before July, when I began the Remeron. The nausea was so bad I couldn't be near food. Anything I ate settled poorly in my system, despite eating whole, organic foods and following a vegan diet. I suppose I've that to look forward to once I taper the Remeron. I'm honestly not ready to taper it unless sleep resolves a bit first.

 

Unfortunately, the activities I enjoy require high levels of concentration and sleep is very much a necessity to perform them with even minimal success. But I did live for them and would mention what they are here if it were not too revealing of my identity (so please pardon me for that). I can't stand mundane, idle distractions. It makes me feel like an oxygen thief. All I have left is the thoughts of a time when life was not a poorly staged surrealistic stasis. Also, I find films and even much music (that I once enjoyed) far too stimulating visually and sonically. I don't know if that's applicable to anyone here. Prior to typing these paragraphs, I was listening to songs on Youtube and they were bringing me to tears (so I stopped that activity). I can be such a sad sap.

[alizarin]

Notes to self on sleep aids (sorry, dear reader, but I've insomnia and a benzo brain):

 

1. Try Inositol

2. Switch to Magnesium glycinate

3. I forgot...

[Wildflower0214]

Try the fish oil with the vit e at night

 

Try Lactium

[Petunia]

You mention (in the present tense) that your side effects are actually getting worse, could you elaborate on that and what you consider disabling symptoms? Additionally, how many months were you without sleep and how did you manage to recover? I don't intend to bombard you with questions but it's becoming quite a challenge to endure each day and I would more than appreciate a bit of insight into your withdrawal.

 

 

I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding here, I meant that the side effects when I was taking the Lexapro were getting worse.  Only at the time, I didn't realize they were side effects.

 

I've actually spent a lot of time documenting my withdrawal and slow improvement on my own thread, there is a long list of my symptoms in my first few posts, the link is here:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4278-petu-recovering-from-13-years-of-antidepressant-use/

 

I've had a lot of disabling symptoms, but they have changed over time.  Akathisia, constant dread and surges of terror, dp/dr, inner electrocution feelings, anhedonia, these have been some of the worst, some of them have subsided somewhat.  But I'm still in the waves/windows pattern, so even though I have some better days, I still never have good days and bad days are still common, its just that my bad days are now not as bad as they once were.

 

Its difficult to remember exactly how long I struggled with extreme sleep problems.  It was probably about 5 months.  I can't tell you anything specifically I did to 'fix it', its just been a slow progression of improvement.  Using ear plugs, an eye mask and blocking light from my window, helps me to stay asleep longer once the sun and birds begin.  Keeping my thoughts gently distracted in the evening stops the rumination and allows me to stay calm enough to easily fall asleep now.

 

For me its been a process of trying lots of different things to see what actually helps.  Mostly I think its been time, acceptance and trying to reduce stress.  But in reducing stress, I now have no life. I sometimes get scared that I'm never going to be able to do much more than I do now.  But very slowly I'm finding I'm able to do a few things I wasn't able to do a year ago.  I still can't watch TV, but I'm surprising myself with what I watch on youtube now without it being a problem.  The thought of having a shower or leaving the house terrified me, I still don't like doing either, but I can do them both now without it being a horrifying experience.  But I haven't forced myself to do anything besides what's been necessary for survival, as far as I can tell, its been only time which has brought small improvement, and avoiding things which obviously cause increased symptoms.

[Athena]

Hi Alizarin,

 

First I want to say that I am sorry that you are experiencing severe insomnia, I can relate and I know how such a torture it can be. I am one more alive proof that it does get better (even though I am writing to you during a night of insomnia, they are much less frequent).

 

I am no expert and my brain easily gets overwhelmed by too much information so I am going to tell you what works for me for insomnia.

 

-First the magnesium + taurine does help a great deal for me too. I take the one from New Roots, called Magnesium Bisglycinate. I don't know if you have that specific one where you are, I am in Canada.

 

-I take that along with 1mg of melatonin, about 2 hours before getting to bed.

 

-Right before going to bed I also have a mixture of herbs I make a tea with. I drink one or two cups of herbal tea made with skullcap, lemon balm, oats and sweet basil.

 

-I also have the "mother-tincture" of skullcap (sorry not sure how to say this) and I take about 3ml when I go to bed

 

Aside from what I take, there are things I do that also help. I make sure I go outside during the day to have some sun and vitamin D. When my insomnia was bad I only took gentle walks. Be it 5 or 10 minutes, I believe going to walk outside is so important for multiple reasons. And I could progressively make it longer and more vigorous.

 

Meditation also helps me. I know it is difficult when your head is spinning, but I found really calming music and it helps me relax. Breathing. Deep breathing. Nice thoughts of places you like.

 

Hang in there, it does get better! Tell me how it goes!

[alizarin]

Petu and Athena:

 

Thank you both for your help and the time you've taken to write thoughtful responses.

 

Petu: I have most of the symptoms you've described, although the 'electrocutions' did subside early on. I'm sorry you're dealing with them but I found early on that fish oil helped relieve the brain bolts I was receiving.

 

Athena: I have been meaning to 'step out' and purchase a different type of magnesium and I suppose I'll give the taurine a try although I'm hesitant that the drop in BP might be deleterious.

 

I apologize for the brevity of this response but some days, I feel so exhausted on all levels that it even impairs my ability to coordinate replies.

 

Thank you to anyone and everyone who has tried to help is any way possible. I suppose I'm feeling like the odd case since my symptoms refuse to subside.

[alizarin]

I'm just petrified. It's a fear for my health, these pills I take, my future (if I'll ever get to have one).

 

I'm just really scared.

[alizarin]

Ideations all day.

 

Was told someone will take my position come March, person hopes I never return.

 

 

No ride to pick up taurine. Calms Forte stopped relieving anxiety caused by insomnia.

[Wildflower0214]

I'm so sorry. I'm battling insomnia. I already lost my job. I hope things change soon. For us both

[Meimeiquest]

I am so sorry, once again. This is so not the center of the problem, but I get almost all my supplements from Amazon. I think some people use iherb.

[alizarin]

That girl that used to be responsible, somewhat talented, had strength and drive... she just doesn't exist anymore.

I no longer know who I am or what I'm even here for at this point. If this is my future, I guess I just wait to die.

 

I've got 3 doctor appointments from the 29th to the 31st and I can't even get myself dressed, much less drive anywhere.

What am I even here for? All my dreams evaporated.

[alizarin]

Just received a $879.52 bill from my last ER visit. Apparently, it wasn't covered by insurance because I had a fainting accident due to prescribed medication (Trazadone) at home. They did nothing for me at the ER. They didn't even clean my wounds, I was doing it myself! I'll probably get a separate bill since they did a CT scan of brain and face.

 

I don't have the money to pay this garbage.

[alizarin]

Too much hitting me at once.

[alizarin]

too physically exhausted from sleep deprivation to get blood work done. im j;ust giving up on all this

[Wildflower0214]

Please don't.

[bubble]

All this is really a lot at once! I just want to remind you that however awful this is it is just TEMPORARY. I know it lasts awfully long. But still it is temporary and it will change. And then one day it will pass.

 

Comparing ourselves to what we were before and projecting how we feel now into future are instruments of torture. More than anything else, more than even this dreadful insomnia this kind of thinking is your main enemy at the moment. As Petu so nicely described, you have to try as hard as possible to change the channel. These awful and inhuman experiences affect us profoundly and we in a way have no option but to change. Accepting who we are at the moment, accepting the full catastrophe of it makes it possible to change the experience into something more bearable. I'm also one of the people who preach acceptance. Reading The Power of Now while in the depths of withdrawal influenced me deeply.  

 

It pains me too see you so stuck in this suffering. Maybe we can't change the suffering and stop insomnia. It will definitely take some time. But we can change the way in which we experience it. 

 

You will make it. 

[alizarin]

Right. So.

I have crippling insomnia and no one really knows why, if it's the result of AD WD or med changes during hospital stays.

 

I think it's best to stay out of here as I don't want to seem unpopular with differing views. Really appreciate everyone's attempt to help and the devoted time.

 

I'll check back (in)frequently, thanks again.

[Patoski]

Alizarin it's about how we deal with the symptoms we are suffering at the moment in time I at this moment am suffering from the electronic shock sensations that are going through my body I am coping by going to work in my very busy restaurant I feel like every body can see what's going on with me but I know in reality know body can see in side me when I was suffering from torturous insomnia I practiced relaxation and I put CD by doctor Albert Smith on when I went to bed the insomnia went after 5 months. I went and had my haircut to day at the barbers .my daughter used to cut it because I was frightened to go out of the house so you see it does get better hang in there mate and use the collective wisdom of the site.

[Patoski]

Alizarin it's about how we deal with the symptoms we are suffering at the moment in time I at this moment am suffering from the electronic shock sensations that are going through my body I am coping by going to work in my very busy restaurant I feel like every body can see what's going on with me but I know in reality know body can see in side me when I was suffering from torturous insomnia I practiced relaxation and I put CD by doctor Albert Smith on when I went to bed the insomnia went after 5 months. I went and had my haircut to day at the barbers .my daughter used to cut it because I was frightened to go out of the house so you see it does get better hang in there mate and use the collective wisdom of the site.

[alizarin]

Has anyone had experience with sleep hypnosis?

 

Also, is it common or, at least, not alarming to have developed giant red under eye bags along with darkness? I look scary and it seems I've aged like 6 years in 6 months of chronic insomnia. 

 

The Remeron has not helped at all with sleep since I began taking it in July. So I guess I'm going to start tapering it but I'm afraid the nausea will come back and the GI issues. I've got a petrifying taper of Klonopin to do so, even though I know most here advocate the cessation of ADs prior to benzos, I'm unsure if I should follow this course.

 

Just confused and lost, not sure what advice to take.

[alizarin]

Alizarin it's about how we deal with the symptoms we are suffering at the moment in time I at this moment am suffering from the electronic shock sensations that are going through my body I am coping by going to work in my very busy restaurant I feel like every body can see what's going on with me but I know in reality know body can see in side me when I was suffering from torturous insomnia I practiced relaxation and I put CD by doctor Albert Smith on when I went to bed the insomnia went after 5 months. I went and had my haircut to day at the barbers .my daughter used to cut it because I was frightened to go out of the house so you see it does get better hang in there mate and use the collective wisdom of the site.

Yes, I dealt with electric shocks while I was working full time as a professor. I'm glad your insomnia of 5 months subsided. I'm at 6 months with no end in sight.

Take care.

[Meimeiquest]

Well, I don't see how it could be easier to taper Remeron by taking away the Klonopin first. I think your big decision, and I don't know the answer, is whether to taper anything right now. If you see ANY improvement, you might want to wait for further stabilization. As someone once wrote eloquently, things actually CAN always get worse.

 

There are certainly paradoxical reactions to Klonopin, but I read recently that benzos are one of the most predictable classes of psychotropics. And Remeron is just plain evil from what I've read of people's experiences.

 

But you are N=1, and what is best for you is an individual matter.

[alizarin]

Has anyone had even mild success with sleep hypnosis? I ask because it's the last thing for me to try which I haven't already tried in terms of 'professional help'. Please, if anyone has had an experience with hypnosis, please respond to this.

 

Thank you.

[Wildflower0214]

Petu has, PM her.

[alizarin]

Well, I don't see how it could be easier to taper Remeron by taking away the Klonopin first. I think your big decision, and I don't know the answer, is whether to taper anything right now. If you see ANY improvement, you might want to wait for further stabilization. As someone once wrote eloquently, things actually CAN always get worse.

 

There are certainly paradoxical reactions to Klonopin, but I read recently that benzos are one of the most predictable classes of psychotropics. And Remeron is just plain evil from what I've read of people's experiences.

 

But you are N=1, and what is best for you is an individual matter.

Meime,

 

That's what I'm trying to both explain and avoid, simultaneously. I don't want to get into a debate about whether it's best to taper the Remeron prior to the benzo, and vice versa. I'm trying to explain that whilst tapering the Klonopin, the Remeron would at least allow me to eat.

 

As for benzos being predictable, judging from the symptoms and severely disabling WDs found on the benzo boards, I'm going to have to be unpopular by stating that such might not necessarily be so. Again, I do not want to debate the issue, this is merely from personal and peer related observation.

 

I'm just here to get some help, not to debate those issues, especially considering my mental state.

 

There has been no improvement, and I've been documenting my sleep patterns. They actually seem to be getting worse.

 

I know all about things getting worse (and worse). I've lost everything. A bit more pain and/ or insomnia means nothing in comparison.

 

 

JDM,

 

Thanks, will do.

[alizarin]

Remeron question: are flu symptoms a common side effect? Also, are seizures a potential WD symptom? If so, does fish oil help?

[Wildflower0214]

Remeron question: are flu symptoms a common side effect? Also, are seizures a potential WD symptom? If so, does fish oil help?

I do believe flu like symptoms can be possible. The seizures are more common with benzos. But fish oil can't hurt. Just go slowly, this will minimize the risks.

[alizarin]

Hi,

 

I'm having a particularly petrifying week and would appreciate guidance. How are ideations best handled? I keep trying to tell myself to accept the situation, but something automatically insists on rejecting that and that's how the ideations happen. They are a constant thing atm along with dr/ dp and chronic insomnia. I could really use some help.

[alizarin]

my sleep is at an all time low of 20 minutes and i'm taking remeron, klonopin, magnesium, taurine, and fish oil. suicidal but hospitals make things worse. i need a solution.

[alizarin]

i'll probably just end up in a woman's shelter since my family's all dead. i don't even care whether i live o r die anymore, it's not worth the hassle. it's not like i ended up on meds because i had depression or anxiety or even a drug or alcohol issue. they just threw them at me when i was a kid because of hyperthyroidism.        

[tgirl]

Are you ok?

[alizarin]

no, i can't say that i am. ideations with dp/dr, can't sleep longer than a few minutes.

[alizarin]

no, i can't say that i am. ideations with dp/dr, can't sleep longer than a few minutes.

but thank you for asking, not many people care.

[lobster]

Hello: -) I'm so sorry you are suffering. Please hang in there. This might be a stupid question are you sure your not sleeping but just don't realize it? Because I have done this. In the beginning of my problems my anxiety was so high I would fall asleep and wake up swearing I had not slept at all. This went on for quite a while. I would even fight with my wife because she told me I had and I didn't believe her. I only excepted it when she said I had been snoring. Just a thought. I hope you feel some relief real soon take care of your self: -)