KarenB: slow Effexor taper

[AmyK]

Karen, I hope you feel a bit better today.

It will not be like this forever. I know it's so discouraging sometimes, happened a lot to me lately, but you are doing so well. Dont think about how long it will take, just keep going in a slow way.

Many hugs,

Amy

[Buffy]

Hi KarenB, thabks for sharing your journey. I hope that you feel a bit better soon.

 

Effexor was the worst drug I have ever been on. It was the bipolar drug for me. Dr CP kept upping the dose (whilst I was inpatient) to 675mg. Well as you can expect, I snapped. I went out and booked a $3000 holiday and then walked in traffic :/ so they cold turkey'd me off it. I had never been so sick in my life (until my recent med drop attempt). 3 weeks on sui watch, and I suspect that withdrawal had a lot to do with later issues.

 

Keep up the good, yet frustrating work. I hold on to hope it will be worth it.

[KarenB]

Thanks Nick, Amy and Buffy, 

 

My sleep is starting to improve, so that's a relief.  I've been away from here a lot this week, cause everything seemed to happen at once - injured cat, sick daughter, me in a wave (and with an infected finger-nail), family visiting - too much!  But it's all easing up now.  Just trying to get my self a bit more 'outward' after a week at home and watching movies. 

 

Yoga yesterday helped a lot, and riding round town on my (electric!) bike - no worries getting up the hills now! 

 

I'm still holding, wanting to see some improvement before I taper again. 

[bubble]

Great to hear the wave is passing and wishing you more healing.

 

(I feel somewhat responsible for your long hold so it better works

[KarenB]

Nope - I read the line at the bottom of my signature - and it's me who is responsible .  I'm still glad I'm doing it - one way or the other I had to give it a chance.  I have plenty of time for experimentation!  Wow, how upbeat does that sound for someone in w/d? 

[bubble]

[scallywag]

Karen, I saw your post in Chris14's thread:

One mistake I've made (often) is to be feeling so good and start to do more and more things till I get exhausted and then crash. I still need to learn to find that happy pace in the middle somewhere. So my tip is to look out for that .

Boy oh boy, have you been watching me throughout my life? I'll be carefully considering a new rule for myself: one year with stable health routines (food, exercise, meditation, meds) before I take on other-focused projects.

[KarenB]

Hee hee, it's possibly just human nature, this trying to do more more more.  A few years back I started to work with the idea of making healing my central work/project/focus.  I wanted to re-position it as a valid part of my life, and give it the appropriate energy and time.  Because really, our healing should be as important as our job, or cleaning our house, or any other thing we do.  Probably more important, but I know that at the beginning of my adult life, I kept it very peripheral and that led to not getting the care I needed. 

[scallywag]

I'd be in big trouble if I gave my health the same priority I give house-cleaning.

[KarenB]

!!

[brassmonkey]

Tapering is like housework, do it and six months later you have to do it again.

[scallywag]

My attitude exactly, brass.

[KarenB]

Old doctor left town, and I have a new and very lovely doctor who listens and does not appear to judge.  I feel very comfortable with her - honestly I've never met a doctor like her.  She is happy to prescribe what I need to continue tapering slowly, and asked questions about how I gauge my stabilisation and when to make reductions.  She described it all as 'fascinating.'

 

Anyway, she gave me a blood-test, and it seems I am extremely low in iron (9 on their scale, instead of between 50 and 120).  This might explain my exhaustion, and apparently contributes to tinnitus (which I've had an increase of lately).  It could also explain my hair-loss and weak nails.  Although w/d can also explain all these, I guess that the low iron just makes it all worse. 

 

It's frustrating because I eat a lot of good iron foods every day (meat, apples, beetroot, nuts/seeds, bananas whole grains, leafy greens, eggs, honey etc), and take a good vitamin C to help absorb them.  So I've started a gentle herbal iron tablet.  Will report progress. 

 

In my head I'm saying 'Bad protracted w/d!!    Go sit in the corner...'

[scallywag]

I could feel myself relax reading what you wrote about your new doctor. She sounds absolutely wonderful!

 

Iron, huh? Well you needed a new research project.

[KarenB]

Pasting Brassmonkey's thoughts about w/d normal:  

I see WDnormal as the overall baseline of where you are in general. The place you are when you're not feeling good, but you're not feeling bad. Sorta a rolling average of the past couple of months between the windows and waves.  Watching the level of WDnormal is a good indicator that things are improving.  Over time you should be seeing a raising of the standard for WDnormal.  So how you're feeling now is better than say six months ago. It changes very slowly but is a really good indicator.

 

 Many people have the idea that stability is feeling good again, when in fact it's feeling the same level of blah day after day with no big swings to the better or bad. When a person does a drop in dose there will be a corresponding increase in WD symptoms over the next few days.  These symptoms will resolve themselves over the following several weeks and return the person to a slightly raised baseline of discomfort. The time frame and severity are dependent on a huge number of factors and end up being unique to each individual.  But the pattern remains.  This is why paying attention to your WDnormal is very important.  It is also referred to as listening to your body.  After a drop in dose and the symptoms have resolved to WDnormal the person then should wait a couple of more weeks to let things really settle out (there are a lot of little unfelt changer still going on) before considering doing their next drop.

 

During that waiting time people may think that they're not doing anything and want to get on with it.  When in fact doing nothing is very proactive.  It's those little unfelt things that need to be finished up before the next step can be taken.  It's letting the glue harden, the paint dry, the cement cure.  The things that need to be complete before the path is safe to walk on again.  If these details are ignored then they start to pile up and compound each other, then somewhere down the line the foundation slips out from under us and the whole thing collapses.

[KarenB]

Taking iron has definitely improved my energy levels.  I'm taking nettle tea too, and hoping to stop the pills at some point.  But for now will continue enjoying easily gotten energy.

 

I decided to go see a local health coach/homeopath, just for something novel to do, with the idea that I might get some fresh perspectives and a little help.  I realise we have to be careful who we see in w/d because they just don't get w/d and can inadvertently make it worse.  So my idea was to visit her, then run her ideas through my SA-knowledge sieve.  I'm so glad I went.

 

I'd been taking MSM for maybe 6 months since reading how it helped Fresh improve her symptoms, but at a minimum dose and not noticing any benefit.  The health coach suggested notching it up quite a bit, which I did gradually.  Two nights after I started taking it, I fell asleep like a child.  As in no tossing and turning, no waiting to sleep.  Then I slept through the night.  It happened the next night too, and for the handful of nights since then. 

 

It's too soon to let myself be too excited, but it sure has surprised me.  I've never had sleep come so easy like that.  I've leveled off at 3000mg per day, since when I went higher I got too activated and had w/d symptoms worsen.  She also pointed out that I was taking a very minimal dose of fish oil and magnesium, so my next plan is to slowly work up each of those.  She had other thoughts too, but mostly it felt very nice to be heard and cared for.  I enjoyed the way she wove so many different aspects of life and health together - it very much tied in with how I have been viewing things lately. 

 

Will update on whether the sleep continues to come easily.

[LexAnger]

Dear Karen,

It's delightful to hear you are sleeping like a child! I am so happy for you that you found someone helpful in a way and taking MSM and iron provided good results!

 

You are in my prayer for continuous great sleep and smooth build up of iron level.

 

Lex

[nick1990]

Good stuff Karen ! Your certainly on your way HUGS!!!

[bubble]

Hello Karen. Great to read such positive updates

 

Sleeping like a baby....I ordered MSM immediately Might not do the same trick for me but I have been waking throughout the night every 2 hours for almost 3 months now. There's been some improvement in the sense that sometimes I wake after 3 or even 4 or 5 hours but any further improvement would be most welcome. And the energy too for you I can't help thinking the hold also started working its magic  

[downtongirl]

Karen what is MSM?

[dowdaller]

Methylsulphonylmethane (MSM) is a naturally occurring source of sulphur, one of the major building blocks of glycosaminoglycan's.
Glycosaminoglycan's are key structural components in cartilage. 
MSM powder is ideal for those individuals who find it difficult to swallow capsules or tablets.

 

Karen what is MSM?

[downtongirl]

Oh ok...and did you start taking this to specifically help with sleep?

[bubble]

and then if you google more you will see that it seems to help with other conditions:

 

https://www.verywell.com/the-benefits-of-msm-88324including 'mental disorders':

http://www.puremsm.com/details.htm

 

If I had time to google further, I'm sure it would explain how it really does it

[KarenB]

Thanks lovely people,

 

I didn't start taking MSM specifically for sleep.  At first I just took it 'cos Fresh reported it helped with w/d symptoms, and I have a lot of respect for her knowledge.  Then, when I saw the health coach, she said she has seen it improve the health of many people she's worked with - once it is taken at a high enough dose, which can vary from person to person. 

 

I'm not being very scientific here, I have not read any studies etc, I'm just seeing how it goes for me.  It's another thing our bodies need a fair amount of, and I guess once they get it the can function better generally.  As with everything though, start low and go up slowly. 

[nz11]

wow never heard of msm so did a google

http://www.nzhealthfood.com/msm.html

MSM is a sulphur compound. Sulphur is essential for normal functioning of the body's growth and repair mechanisms. Sulphur from MSM powder is especially important to the cellular structure of hair, nails, skin, (having a role in the formation of keratin) and connective tissues (being important in the formation of collagen, B vitamins and amino acids). Sulphur also helps support immune system function.

 

Well if this helps with sleep and its 'safe' then i think i might try some myself.

 

Thanks KB

nz11

[KarenB]

There are differences in brands and quality.  The one I've got is from South Africa (my health coach buys it in) and it's called 'Real MSM' by Thresh-hold.  On the back it says:  '1000g pure, four times distilled OptiMSM (methylsulphonylmethane), Magnesium stearate, and silicon dioxide.'

 

Thinking I should start an MSM thread, but I've been reluctant because I'm not really wired for reading through studies and evaluating if they are reliable etc.  Perhaps if I start one, someone else will add those.  My sleep is still very good, apart from the one night the wind picked up every loose thing outside and threw it round the place. 

[elbee]

Hi Karen, I just wanted to drop by your thread and thank you for your posts in my thread. I read through your thread and it's great to see the progress you've made so far. Congrats!

[KarenB]

Hey thanks Elbee, good times eh?

[elbee]

Yup, magical!

[scallywag]

Hi Karen -- I loved the Michael Leunig cartoon you posted in Alexanders thread about herbal therapy for life-ache! So true.

[KarenB]

Yes - it's the sort of idea that can carry one through a lot of life's less pleasant experiences.  I'm glad you put it here, cause I thought of it but couldn't be bothered

[KarenB]

Update:  After holding for 8 months, I finally felt ready to make reductions.  During that 8 months I sorted out my sleep issues (I've been sleeping brilliantly since taking a supplement called MSM).  I sorted out my PMS issue and some minor hormonal and digestion issues.  I also worked on doing short meditations (in the neurosculpting tradition) each evening before sleep, in order to build up my self-belief and a feeling of robustness. 

 

I'm using the Brassmonkey slide method, making weekly cuts.  So far I've done one cut of 0.5% which went great, so the following week I cut 1% which is also going pretty well.  Depending on how things progress I think I'll make two more weekly 1% cuts, then hold for a bit.

 

Right now I feel stoked.  I've had only minor symptoms and my sleep has remained really good.  I know it's early days, but yay anyway.  I like this feeling that I can actually do this! 

[LexAnger]

Hi Karen,

So happy you are feeling so much better and the tapering schedule works great for you!

Wish you best luck and a smooth journey down the road all the way to the finish line!

 

Hugs,

Lex

[nz11]

Good going KarenB

you are keeping me in suspense so whats your new current dose ...128mg? Maybe i missed a drop.

 

You really are doing it.

I think Brassmonkey was onto a winner.

 

nz11

[scallywag]

Hooray Karen! Glad your long hold has yielded stability.  Resolving sleep and hormonal cycle issues must be a HUGE relief.

[brassmonkey]

Hi Karen-- I'm so glad things are going well.  It sounds like you've done the leg work to get everything in place and your taper is off to a good start.  Best of luck with it.

 

(((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))

 

Brass