☼ frasier23: Zyprexa cold turkey what now

[frasier23]

I going on the med free route and besides insomnia from zyprexa I have problems with random thoughts that usually dictates stories and tries to include me sooner or later. Exhausting since i always need to be prepared and im wondering if anyone has

lost this symptom without medicine? they appears before bed and just after awake when eyes closed.

[Shep]

Yes, I did have quite a lot of visual hallucinations, but only a few of the audio ones, which for me are the worst.

 

So I really didn't "avoid" psychosis so much as I "ignored" it. I just reminded myself that this was just a withdrawal symptom and nothing to be afraid of. I used mindfulness techniques. For example, mindfulness teaches that you can let your thoughts pass without interacting with them. I used that same technique for hallucinations. I simply let them pass without interacting with them.

 

After all, it's not real and it won't hurt you. It's the anxiety that's the worst because they happen quite unexpectedly and you have to second guess whether it's real.

 

How are you feeling now? 

[scallywag]

Further to Shep's point about hallucinations and ignoring them, I once was given an expression that helps me put intrusive thoughts in their place: "It's just neurons firing."

[frasier23]

update.

having sleep/dark holes in two sessions. 1hr+2hr i believe its hard to reallyknow. I. also having so much intrusive thoughts which creates dreams even though im not sleeping. so sometimes during night i "wake up" from a dream but its just my intrusive thoughts that almost put me into psychosis feeling. its no good sleep hopefully it get better.

[frasier23]

when i was in hospital and put on trilafon and immovane I had 1-3 nights with good sleep and immediately my libido came back etc. that was due to medicine and i know i will not have that sleep in a long time naturally. cant cry anymore think i lost it due to sleep deprivation. just yawns. thats why im confused regarding medicin. maybe i need to treat my psychotic symptoms with medicine?? how will i otherwise feel that poweř from restorative sleep / whatever i had from the medicine

[Shep]

update.

having sleep/dark holes in two sessions. 1hr+2hr i believe its hard to reallyknow. I. also having so much intrusive thoughts which creates dreams even though im not sleeping. so sometimes during night i "wake up" from a dream but its just my intrusive thoughts that almost put me into psychosis feeling. its no good sleep hopefully it get better.

 

 

I still have very strange experiences when I first start to fall asleep. It's this hypnagogic state of consciousness where it can definitely feel a bit psychotic with stream of conscious thinking. 

 

It's hard to tell what is real and what is dreaming, especially if you've been struggling with insomnia for weeks or months. And it's easy to get swept away in the intrusive thought stream. 

 

But the fact that you realize this, the fact that you're writing about it, means you are not psychotic. You have too much self awareness. 

 

I really think this is sleep deprivation. You've brought up a fear of psychosis before, but from what you're saying, you are aware that these episodes are really tricks of the mind due to sleep deprivation. 

 

The more you can relax before sleep, distracting by reading or listening to music, the less fear you will have and the less the intrusive thoughts will put you into that "psychosis feeling". 

 

It really does get better. 

[frasier23]

Shep. problem is i didnt register my sleep that much much during spring. But i believe my sleep didnt get better from med free until my last psychosis thats why im now worried it wont get better and i should reinstate. I wonder how my sleep will ever finds its way back.

[frasier23]

Also even if I have psychotic symptoms as intrusive thoughts i guess they can dissappear with or without medicine?

[Shep]

Hi, frasier. Intrusive thoughts are not a symptom of psychosis. They are just like any other thoughts, but usually they are dark and make us uncomfortable. But they are not a sign of psychosis.

 

Try to distract yourself from them. Watch TV, go for a walk in nature, listen to music, read, etc. 

 

If they are happening when you are trying to fall asleep, try listening to a guided sleep meditation. If you go on YouTube and look up "guided sleep meditation", you can find a lot of them. 

 

You may also want to look into using Melatonin - please see the links provided to you earlier in your thread. 

 

[frasier23]

Another night with 1+2 . Had lots of intrusive thoughts between 6-10. at breakfast i thought about dinosauries looking into my window. Hopefully this goes away.

[Shep]

Hi, Frasier. You said you "thought about dinosaurs looking into my window." Was it just a thought and not a hallucination? 

 

I know the intrusive thoughts and insomnia are difficult right now, but there are some suggestions given throughout your thread to help, so feel free to read over everything and ask questions if you need to. 

[frasier23]

is this equivalent to normal tinnitus?

[frasier23]

Thanks shep i might use this as sort of log as well. Its kind of intrusive thoughts but you see an animation of dinosaur looking into the windows.

 

last night 0hrs.

[frasier23]

21th 0hrs

22th 0hrs less thoughts 6-10

 

Thinking of what todo since its same situation as a week ago when i tried Theralen again. Just gave me a few days of sleep nothing else. My head is so awake and head tinnitus takes focus when trying to sleep. Guess I try natural a few more days if my body can stand it. Have had a lot of strange feelings in it every time i go without sleep

[KarenB]

It is very common in w/d.  Some of the discussion in these threads might be of use to you:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9671-intrusive-thoughts-and-increased-panic/

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9809-neuro-emotions/

 

What about having some guided meditations ready to turn on when you notice the thoughts starting? 

[frasier23]

23th 2hrs I believe har to know since its just holes. Have been waking up with anxiety and cold feets past days. Guessing its from sleep deprivation. Still confused if I should continue on this route or not.

[Shep]

Frasier, have you thought about using Melatonin? This could help you get at least a few hours of sleep and keep you from completely decompensating from sleep deprivation.

 

Please note as an online forum, we are limited in what we can do for you.

 

Since insomnia was the reason you went on these drugs, you may struggle with insomnia even more, so if you do need to take something, I would try the melatonin first. Remember to start at a very low dose and follow the guidelines listed on the very first post of this thread: 

 

Melatonin for sleep

 

 

Here's how to re-establish your sleep cycle with melatonin:

 

- Start with .25mg-.50mg melatonin for 3-4 days.

 

- Take at the same time, nightfall (but, given that it's summer, not later than 8 p.m.), every night.

 

- If needed, gradually increase by .25mg for 3-4 days at a time.

 

- Use the lowest effective dose.

 

- Try to turn lights off or keep lights low after sundown. Your bedroom should be quiet and dark. Darkness triggers natural melatonin production. Artificial lighting, including staring into the computer, can give the wrong signal to your pineal gland.

 

- Keep to a very regular schedule -- this is what your circadian rhythm needs.

 

- Do NOT take melatonin regularly at any time but nightfall or you might scramble your sleep-wake cycle.

 

 

 

You may also want to run a fan or use some form of White Noise to help with the tinnitus.

[frasier23]

My worry is that I completly decompensate.. What happens then? zhould i be worried? how could it happen without me sleeping.. Dont have melatonin.

 

Isnt melatonin just a milder form of drug. Guess sleep cycle will break when its taken away?

[Shep]

I understand your concern. You're striving to be completely drug free and we definitely respect that here. But melatonin is not a milder form of a drug. It's a hormone. Please read the first post in that Melatonin thread. As Alto explains it:

 

Darkness triggers melatonin, the nighttime sleep hormone made by the pineal gland to signal our brains that it's time to sleep. The natural human sleep-wake cycle is from nightfall to dawn. (Sunrise starts cortisol, the daytime activity hormone, which in excess causes the awful anxiety, depression, and insomnia of withdrawal syndrome.

 

She goes onto to say:

 

According to what I've read and conversations with doctors I trust, your body does NOT get dependent on it and does NOT compensate by reducing natural melatonin output. Of all the difficult choices available to us, melatonin is relatively safe.

 

 

Although anything can carry risks, decompensating due to lack of sleep also carries a risk. So this is definitely something to look into.

[FeralUrban]

I have no idea, but my 10 days off of Venlafaxine caused ringing noise in my entire head. It was one among the many weird things that happened. When I reinstated it went back to "normal" tinnitus. My thought was it just the volume of the sound had been turned way up.

[frasier23]

I know we talked about this earlier but still dont under stand why not sleep pills like Immovan cant help recreate sleep cycle or is it a fake sleep cycle that just outcompetes the real?

[Shep]

Yes, you could say drugs like Imovane cause a type of "fake sleep".  Imovane, or any benzodizepine drug, can cause re-bound insomnia, making your sleep progressively worse.

 

Plus it causes dependency in as little as 2 weeks. So it's actually worse than a "fake sleep" because you can become trapped on the drug, not able to come off, meanwhile it's making your sleep worse.

 

Because Melatonin is a hormone (not a drug), it creates a calm stage for your mind to go into, a quiet natural sleep. This is why we recommend it here.

 

 

[frasier23]

Because I createad a sleep pattern on nitrazepam/theralen which i could feel every night. 1-2+2-3hrs. This was created of 1 month use and I Had this sleep pattern for a couple of months until it broke when I changed sleep environment.

 

Was this a fake zleep pattern? and how was my natural sleep affected by it during the time i didnt take any meds but was on the medicine built up sleep pattern?

[nz11]

frasier what are your thoughts on doing a drug sig.?

[frasier23]

made a quick one

[nz11]

Wow great job the mods will love you!

[AliG]

Frasier.  When you say " fake sleep pattern" do you mean non- restorative with no deep REM sleep ? I struggled for a long time with W/D insomnia and it was tempting to try the sleep drugs but I knew in time the normal sleep cycle would return.
 
My take on this is that you can keep putting off the pain with more drugs or deal with it for good - naturally . There are quite a few natural options to explore - Melatonin has been discussed a number of times here , as it's been so helpful to quite a few of us here, particularly those dealing with long term sleeping problems. I have seen it to be one of the most consistently helpful supplements as well as the fish oil and magnesium, which are staples in recovery.  Alto took Melatonin for 3 years to help with her insomnia. It has helped quite a few here.
 
There are also other tools that have helped some of us including guided sleep meditations, relaxing music, keeping lights low , staying off computers/ phones etc, eye- masks, block out blinds and one that I've just found - bedtime yoga . 
I think it's just finding what perhaps works for you at this time. It takes some effort but is ultimately worth it in the long term.
 
Guided Meditations, Calming Videos, Sleep Hypnosis

 

5 Minute before Bed Yoga

https://youtu.be/FscDZp1L4Nw

 

Ali

[frasier23]

fake sleep pattern I mean the pattern that were created by sleep pills. (if it is considered to be a fake pattern) Because i created a sleep pattern with sleep pills which were the same for months until i changed sleep environment. Think it had some rem sleep and maybe deep sleep. why it felt fake was because it was the same all time. Always same hours etc..

[Shep]

Hi, Frasier. What do you mean by "I changed sleep environment"?  Did you move into a new apartment or house?

[frasier23]

yes i think it was due to an 1w vacation where the room where really light. thaats also why i felt the sleep cycle felt fake since it was so easy to break it.

[Shep]

During withdrawal it doesn't take much to break a sleep cycle.  But now that you're back home, you can make your bedroom dark and cool, the perfect environment for sleep.

 

You may want to try doing a sleep re-set with Melatonin.  You can find this in most grocery and health food stores. What it does is help you fall asleep, so at least you're getting a few hours of sleep a night. This is all it takes to prevent really serious consequences such as insomnia-induced psychosis.

 

Also, it can get you out of the mindset of having a fear of sleep, or rather, a fear of not sleeping.

 

Just a thought.

[frasier23]

feels hopeless since the sleep pattern i broke were at least a start. Nowadays i cant feel if i goto sleep or not something i always did before. alternative to insomnia indusced psychoais is to take meds for a while. Can sleep be back during meds? doctors keep telling this all the time.

[frasier23]

another night with unknown sleep probably 0.

 

starting to not care anymore since i dont want back on zyprexa and maybe its not even possible. I wouldnt have the motivation to even taper it.

 

So im stuck with natural route and to be honest i dont know if it will be any better. It was one year since I CT Zyprexa and i think the insomnia would be gone now.

[Shep]

thanks, what i was thinking of is if natural sleep progressed during aid of seroquel. been without sleep to long now and im wondering around medicine and still have some healing so i later can taper whatever medicine?

 

 

 

Hi, frasier.

 

The above post is copied from what you posted on my Intro thread, but I think it's best to keep all of the information related to your taper and recovery here on your own thread.

 

I think you're asking if it's okay to go back on a medication for sleep now and then taper it later? Is this correct?

 

If so, that is a possibility, but so far going back on medication hasn't helped you in the long run. Also, please keep in mind the effect that "kindling" plays, as going on and off medications makes the central nervous system more fragile. Please see this thread for more information: 

 

Limbic Kindling -- Hardwiring the brain for hypersensitivity

 

 

 

 

So im stuck with natural route and to be honest i dont know if it will be any better. It was one year since I CT Zyprexa and i think the insomnia would be gone now. 

 

 

Yes, your CT off Zyprexa was a year ago, but since then you've been off and on a number of drugs, including nitrzaepam, theralen, and trilafon. 

 

All of these drugs can cause major sleep problems, so it's not just your Zyprexa cold turkey, it's all of these other medications, as well. 

 

As you continue to stay off these drugs, your sleep will get better. Also, please read over your entire thread, as we've listed a number of non-drug methods of handling your insomnia. 

[frasier23]

Unknown sleep again but with a difference. It felt as i had been sleeping when i watched my clock at around 3-4. Less thoughts before sleep but much more images 6-10 and less thoughts. almost felt like thoughts were getting weaker and overtaken by images. Maybe it has to do with sleep deprivation

[AliG]

Frasier. I can't help thinking that if you perhaps focused on other things that the sleep problem would start to recede slightly. I understand  how very debilitating it can be as I suffered from it in a major way for close on 2 years, but I can't remember focusing on it . My thoughts were about accepting what was happening and moving on. If I couldn't sleep then I just made the best of it . I knew it would eventually right itself. I watched a lot of reality TV in the early morning hours and posted some slightly crazy posts here, but I didn't stress ever. I was frustrated and extremely tired but looking forward to a natural return of sleep eventually - drug free.

 

I think that attitude helped and I'm 95 % there.  I've gone from 6 nights awake to 6 nights sleeping / perhaps 1 night awake a week.

I've told you already what helped but the main thing was " NO STRESS".

 

I guess I had a huge faith in the process and never had any doubts and didn't look for a quick fix.

I get the pain /fatigue and nothing works right when sleepless but try to hang in there and find what works for you. Please explore all the options available particularly in Symptoms & Self - Care.

Ali