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Alua

Me too. Weird intrusive thoughts are my most disturbing symptom. I find myself laughing at the ridiculous nature of them at times. I had them since I started ads and they are probably less since I started tapering but at times they come on thick and fast in a concentrated motion. So inexplicable that it is without doubt a side effect of the drugs. It's probably more common than realised as most people don't want to talk about it for fear of judgement. I have had two people tell me this week they have homicidal and suicidal thoughts for years but have never told anybody before. X

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RubyTuesday

Hi there,

 

Some of you may know that RxISK has added a section focused on understanding protracted withdrawal - the intent is to discuss the possible biological mechanisms of withdrawal and devise theories of what may be wrong in the brain.  

 

There is a discussion forum here and I have added the comment below. I would encourage anyone with their thoughts about what is causing this to help provide information in understanding the complexity of withdrawal to add their thoughts. Note: it's not a forum for coping strategies, that's more the role of this message board. Rather it's goal is to focus on what is causing this in the brain. 

. I especially experience this whenever I think of something in the future that I have to remember to do – regardless of how insignificant the task. I suddenly feel like shrinking into a ball and conceding that I am unable to do this basic chore. However, re-running the thought after that reaction usually produces a less intense response. And it almost never prevents me from doing whatever task it was. As the sympathetic nervous system regulates the fight/flight response – our immediate responses to threats in our environment – the symptom must be associated with the biology of that part of our nervous system.

I believe the sympathetic nervous system has, in its natural state, “chemical sentries” that tamp down responses to non threatening changes in the environment – that enable us to distinguish between actual menace and benign change. Whatever chemical apparatus is involved with that defense mechanism is seriously jeopardized by what ever disregulation is occurring in withdrawal.

 

 

here is my theory for why this occurs. i saved this post on my email until I had time to sit down and reply. I have noticed this as well.

my frontal cortex, that normally handles such tasks as paying bills and related things, is damaged, CBI, from psych meds.

as a dancer and as a mom, I know that when the frontal cortex is not up for the work assigned to it, I fall back into a more primitive part of my brain that is motion oriented and is capable of incredible physical feats without sustenance. this is the part of us that evolved in the jungle. it is very powerful and is capable of pushing us through emergency situations, which in effect are created artificially by having to operate with a diminished frontal cortex, so to speak. I may not be using the correct terminology but I think you get my drift. anyway, this action then compensated for my the more primitive brain comes at a cost. the cost is the amped up adrenaline. so then we are having these extreme adrenaline reactions to simple tasks like paying a bill, or making a mental note to make that phone call or answer that email or whatever. our nervous system is out of balance and over-exhausted. it just takes time to balance out.

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manymoretodays

CBI= complex brain injury?  Chemical brain injury? 

 

I think a lot of the resultant neuroemotions AND physical discomforts post medications is due to the whole autonomic nervous system trying, trying to revise itself.

 

Just me......I get depressed if I think/feel I have a brain injury rather than a healing nervous/autonomic system.  It sounds so fixed.  Man, it's so complicated..........thankful that there are folks trying to figure it all out.

 

Thanks for sharing.

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RubyTuesday

CBI = Chronic Brain Impairment

according to P Breggin, all psych meds cause CBI

but I believe it is totally reversible due to neuroplasticity

however, that doesn't mean it is easy

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SalvadorAlcantara

Neuro-Emotional Technique (NET) is a proven blend of the latest scientific research and centuries-old Eastern healing techniques. NET acknowledges the relationship between the body’s emotional health, environmental toxicity, nutritional balance and structural integrity. It is a methodology used to normalise unresolved physical and/or behavioural patterns in the body that has enabled patients worldwide to enjoy better health and emotional and physical wellbeing.

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Polly1974

Hello everyone

 

Would it be OK to ask a question here?

 

My original OCD fear has increased to a level that is unbearable during my withdrawal from all my prescribed drugs (see signature).

 

Could this terrible increase be classed as a neuro emotion too?

It is so unbearable compared to pre meds.

 

It would give me hope to know that this is possible and that's its going to go back down again when my brain heals more.

 

I'd be most grateful to anyone kind enough to reply and give me some hope

 

Thanks so much

polly

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KarenB

Hey Polly,

 

I think 'yes' your OCD is definitely amplified by the neuro-emotion effect.  One of the aspects of neuro-emotions is that they are persistent and intrusive, much more so than 'regular' emotions - which sounds like the fear you are experiencing. 

 

It's also worth noting that OCD is often a response to a traumatic situation.  So right now when you are in the trauma of w/d, your old coping mechanism is coming out to play again.  So you've probably got that going on anyway, and then it's magnified by the neuro-emotion effect.  

 

I don't have OCD, so others may be able to help you with more detail about how people have learned to manage OCD in a drug-free way.  This may be a good question for your own thread.  There is also this thread, which you may have already found:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3882-ocd-obsessive-thoughts-compulsive-behaviors/ 

 

I know some people have tried things like Emotional Freedom Technique (this has worked for me in other areas) and counseling. 

 

I hope that helps for a start, others will know more.

KarenB

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RubyTuesday

it has been well documented that withdrawal can bring on a reaction much worse than the problem you were originally medicated for

if the reaction is unbearable, look into micro tapering or on this forum it is called "why taper by 10%?". and you can always reinstate and then taper more slowly. it is very common to taper too fast and then have to slow down.

I am off Seroquel now and tapering off of Lamictal.

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Polly1974

Thanks so much both

I'm really grateful for your kind replies. This has given me some hope.

 

Thank you

Polly

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Mort81

Karen is right its amplified . I had OCD as a teenager and anxiety/panic in my mid 20's but completely controlled it and it weakened to nothing. During WD ive had it pop up now and again and felt a bit helpless. My thoughts run wild at times and I feel the Neuro emotion reaction. Its very aggravating because I know I don't care but my mind and body are telling me different still way too sensitive that everything is magnified.

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Mort81

Even my reaction to debates or scary movies, sound etc..... Its completely off at the moment. Overtime it should continue to weaken as our systems strengthen. Pain in the a---!!

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Polly1974

Thanks so much Mort

 

I really appreciate your response, thanks for being kind and giving me some hope.

Hope your coping OK with everything

Polly

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Mort81

No problem Polly, im doing okay, some days better than others. Being so sensitive is tough but all I can do is look forward to better days and acknowledge the progress Ive made.

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Newbeginning

I have a question: has any of you developed the neuro-emotions while tapering very slowly, or is this just a result of tapering too fast for most people? I did not have these symptoms before, but now I do. Makes me wonder if I should reinstate and cut less?

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Skyler

I have a question: has any of you developed the neuro-emotions while tapering very slowly, or is this just a result of tapering too fast for most people? I did not have these symptoms before, but now I do. Makes me wonder if I should reinstate and cut less?

 

Please start reading this thread from the beginning, you will find your question is answered.

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Newbeginning

Thanks! I skipped only a few. Guess it was in those :) I appreciate your reply!

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KarenB

I had big neuro-emotions while tapering at 10% (way too fast for me) and very minimal neuro emotions now that I am tapering at 0.4%. 

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Newbeginning

Wow that's great to now. Thanks KarenB! I will try slowing down and see if things improve. Blessings :)

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Coopergirl1

Hi you guys! Can an intrusive thought come during a normal action and make you feel your action was bad too? Thnx so much

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KarenB

For sure.  I think that neuro-emotions really mess with our perspective, causing us to misunderstand many things including our own actions and those of others. 

 

Recognising these thoughts for what they are when they show up, and learning to separate them out can help a lot.  It gets easier with practice.  

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Coopergirl1

I appreciate your response so much Karen, thank you!

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elbee

I've now read this entire thread, and it's interesting to read about people's different takes on this. One common theme that appeared to me is whether an emotion is "real" or not and/or is the emotion "really me" or not. It seems like some people think of a neuro emotion as something along the lines of a "misfire" emotion (brain just kind of going skewy?). Others have talked about neuro emotions as those that might have a kernel of truth, but gets amplified. Still others have talked about it as perhaps "pent up" emotions that get "released" after having been suppressed as an effect of the meds they were on. All of these takes seem to make sense to me. 

 

How do I personally relate to the idea of neuro emotions?

 

I can relate to the idea at some level I think as what I feel when I'm in the throes of a panic attack. Incredible generalized fear, impending doom . . . emotions that just don't seem to match up to the reality of the moment. And generally, this "mis-match" creates such horror . . . it feels so awful!

 

Maybe I can relate to it from past drinking, saying something that was perhaps rooted in a kernel of truth, but in that moment seems intense and important and for whatever reason I'm compelled to express. Or perhaps in the drinking context, it's been something I've sat on, not expressed and let build up that through alcohol finds it's way to the surface.

 

I think I most relate to neuro emotions with some of the therapy type work I've been doing, and through my involvement/participation with Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families (ACA/ACOA). I've been able to identify that sometimes I feel emotions VERY INTENSELY, where I have felt "triggered" (experiencing emotions that are rooted in the past). I'm feeling something in the present as an adult, but I'm feeling it as though it were me as a little kid. Again, in this context I'm experiencing emotions that of course feel very real, that have some element of "truth" to them, and that definitely feel amplified so that they don't really appear to match the context of the situation. Experiencing emotions in this way makes me feel crazy and out of control, and left wondering what the hell is going on with me!?!?

 

And it could be that I simply haven't experience neuro emotions (yet?) in ways that some others have experienced them. But those are my thoughts.

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FightingForHope

This thread is so helpful, the same way that Breggin's book Medication Madness has been helpful to me, in understanding and forgiving myself for the things I did while on psych drugs, and learning to trust myself again. I think I experienced similar distortions of emotion while I was ON the meds, not just during withdrawal.

 

Hello Rhiannon,

I agree with you this thread is so helpful in understanding; I am pretty sure that I too experienced some serious distortions of emotion while I was ON the meds, as well. My emotions were heightened, and for the longest time I wasn't really myself, sad as that is to say. Also, I unsuccesfully tried tapering/quitting a few times before, and had the same neuro-emotions I'm having now, so I am familiar with them, I just was not sure before that it wasn't me.

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FightingForHope

 

That's the thing for me too--most of my emotions are not unsurprising in the context of my life, they're just so intensified. Plus I don't feel well and strong enough right now to make the changes in my life that would change the conditions that contribute to those emotions.

 

And I'm not really certain how much, or what, I need to or should do, because frankly I still don't trust my judgment, rightly so. I know that during my long hold spells when I get to feeling pretty well, my judgment is better. So I know it's being affected by withdrawal and I know from past experience that it's drastically affected by the drugs themselves.

 

So I'm just holding the course, so to speak. And meanwhile time is passing and my remaining years are passing and I'm getting older and having to face that I may never have even the simple things I have always hoped for.

 

Hello Rhiannon,

I feel the same way; a lot of my emotions are not all completely unwarranted, they are just so intense and impossible to handle. And I don't feel well enough or sane enough right now to make the necessary changes, or take any action. I'm not even sure they are necessary changes, because I don't trust myself and what I am feeling and thinking right now. So I too am "holding the course", and "getting older and having to face that I may never have even the simple things I have always hoped for" as you say. I feel like time passes and life slips ... Which only adds to my impatience and the intensity of my neuro-emotions and misery.

 

I know this is an old post, so I hope things are much better for you now ... I am fairly new and learning/reading my way around the site still... there is a lot, mercifully. Thank you for your insights!

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FightingForHope

I've now read this entire thread, and it's interesting to read about people's different takes on this. One common theme that appeared to me is whether an emotion is "real" or not and/or is the emotion "really me" or not. It seems like some people think of a neuro emotion as something along the lines of a "misfire" emotion (brain just kind of going skewy?). Others have talked about neuro emotions as those that might have a kernel of truth, but gets amplified. Still others have talked about it as perhaps "pent up" emotions that get "released" after having been suppressed as an effect of the meds they were on. All of these takes seem to make sense to me. 

 

How do I personally relate to the idea of neuro emotions?

 

I can relate to the idea at some level I think as what I feel when I'm in the throes of a panic attack. Incredible generalized fear, impending doom . . . emotions that just don't seem to match up to the reality of the moment. And generally, this "mis-match" creates such horror . . . it feels so awful!

 

Maybe I can relate to it from past drinking, saying something that was perhaps rooted in a kernel of truth, but in that moment seems intense and important and for whatever reason I'm compelled to express. Or perhaps in the drinking context, it's been something I've sat on, not expressed and let build up that through alcohol finds it's way to the surface.

 

I think I most relate to neuro emotions with some of the therapy type work I've been doing, and through my involvement/participation with Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families (ACA/ACOA). I've been able to identify that sometimes I feel emotions VERY INTENSELY, where I have felt "triggered" (experiencing emotions that are rooted in the past). I'm feeling something in the present as an adult, but I'm feeling it as though it were me as a little kid. Again, in this context I'm experiencing emotions that of course feel very real, that have some element of "truth" to them, and that definitely feel amplified so that they don't really appear to match the context of the situation. Experiencing emotions in this way makes me feel crazy and out of control, and left wondering what the hell is going on with me!?!?

 

And it could be that I simply haven't experience neuro emotions (yet?) in ways that some others have experienced them. But those are my thoughts.

 

Hello again elbee :)

 

I can relate almost entirely to the way you describe experiencing these intense emotions mis-matched to reality, which is what I personally think of as neuro-emotions ... Just yesterday I had another extremely intense bout of something very like this:

 

"I'm feeling something in the present as an adult, but I'm feeling it as though it were me as a little kid. Again, in this context I'm experiencing emotions that of course feel very real, that have some element of "truth" to them, and that definitely feel amplified so that they don't really appear to match the context of the situation. Experiencing emotions in this way makes me feel crazy and out of control, and left wondering what the hell is going on with me!?!?"

 

I feel like a kid, reacting and feeling the events around me as I might have done as a kid, but worse, and as you say in an amplified way. The worst part is I can't hide it, and people at work or outside pick up on it and must think me crazy, because 1) the changes in me are obvious if one knows me somewhat, and 2) I am definitely not a kid. All of which also adds to my not-so-mild-anymore sense of being picked on and looked upon unfavorably. It's so awful I feel like disappearing! I have been feeling this way since I began my taper, yesterday and at times quite badly, in fact. I struggle with identifying whether what I am feeling is rooted in something real and pertinent to my life and my past, or is a complete fabrication, I suspect the latter.

 

Other intense feelings that arise at times seem like pent up emotions that blow up, others like grand structures built on top of a kernel of truth- perhaps previously unaddressed ...  some feel simply like overreactions to something I might more easily brush off (or not?) ... I seem to go through all kinds, it's very confusing, and my thoughts scatter :wacko: 

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FightingForHope

I struggle with identifying whether what I am feeling is rooted in something real and pertinent to my life and my past, or is a complete fabrication, I suspect the latter.

 

I apologize, I actually meant "the former"!

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elbee

Hey FightingForHope,

 

I've had some success addressing those old, triggered emotions through EMDR. I don't know why it seems to work for me, but it does. As I've been doing it, things that used to trigger me like that don't, or don't as much. But there is still more. I had that sensation of "deep/old" feelings come up today . . . that "little kid trying to navigate an adult world" feeling. I'm also involved in ACA, and that program / support has been really useful to me.

 

So what I'm finding is that while these emotions don't match up to my reality, there does seem to be a basis for them (from a repressed memory / trauma perspective, anyway). But at the same time, this all seemed to come out of nowhere. The end of last week I was actually feeling really great, and then this past Sunday it shifted on me. It's frustrating not to be able to point a finger at any one thing and say, ahh yes, this is what set me off. Perhaps that's neuro emotions? :) Anyway, I just try to let the emotions out as they come up and roll with it.

 

Based on your description, it sounds like we may be having some similar experiences. Thanks for sharing yours!

 

LB

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FightingForHope

Hey FightingForHope,

 

I've had some success addressing those old, triggered emotions through EMDR. I don't know why it seems to work for me, but it does. As I've been doing it, things that used to trigger me like that don't, or don't as much. But there is still more. I had that sensation of "deep/old" feelings come up today . . . that "little kid trying to navigate an adult world" feeling. I'm also involved in ACA, and that program / support has been really useful to me.

 

So what I'm finding is that while these emotions don't match up to my reality, there does seem to be a basis for them (from a repressed memory / trauma perspective, anyway). But at the same time, this all seemed to come out of nowhere. The end of last week I was actually feeling really great, and then this past Sunday it shifted on me. It's frustrating not to be able to point a finger at any one thing and say, ahh yes, this is what set me off. Perhaps that's neuro emotions? :) Anyway, I just try to let the emotions out as they come up and roll with it.

 

Based on your description, it sounds like we may be having some similar experiences. Thanks for sharing yours!

 

LB

 

Hi elbee,

 

I'm not familiar with EMDR, but I can see how these emotions would have a basis in a repressed life event or past trauma; it's interesting to hear that's what you're finding out. It is puzzling how they come out of the blue, I don't know whether I have a trigger either; my last horrible episode came right after a short period of feeling better than I had in a long time, as a matter of fact. It was a pretty intense one too, and it took me a couple of days to dig myself out ... today was a better day, after resting a lot and finally getting a much needed decent night's sleep. It seems that these neuro-emotions won't let up until they've done ALL the housekeeping in there! Every unresolved emotion bubbling up to the surface ... or at least the key ones? I wonder.

 

Anyway, I wish you continued success with your therapies and support! And thank you as well for sharing; it's helpful to hear.

 

All the best!

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Help777

Any advice on how to manage neuro anger? It hits so quickly and fiercly. Meditation doesn't help. I end up rumaging through closets and crying, screaming, throwing so much out. It feels like an inner restlesness where i am going to explode or implode. It ends with me sobbing on the floor for 30 mins until i am so utterly exhausted that I start to calm down. Then i am just so, so sad. Anyone relate? What helps?

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RubyTuesday

I can totally relate. with anger, gratitude helps. after I calm down, I massage my head, and if, for example I have just freaked out because I lost my car keys, I say a short prayer that I am thankful that I own a car. when I get angry that I have lost 14 years of my life to psych meds, I thank God that I got to get off them and remind myself that I know I will feel much better next year.

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Swede

What are the differences between intrusive-thoughts-neuroemotions and intrusive-thoughts-OCD???

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moonstoneblue

I've had bad anger today. I came home and changed my clothes ready to hoover and clean the house and my parents said they were watching tv, so I kinda flew off the handle and felt angry. I felt extremely stressed and everything. I was stressed out because I needed to clean and had to cook dinner. My mums unwell so she's unable to do much. I feel bad. I'm worried I'll do the same when I return to work. A little bit of stress turns into something huge. My chest feels like it's going to explode.

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Help777

Does anyone experience a rage attack that would seem like a panic attack in that it is short lived, follows a similar pattern except instead of panic it is an anger or rage that lasts for about 20 mins and then it leaves your body just as quickly as it came on? If so, what helps?

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SkyBlue

Help, yes. Absolutely yes. I have ripped a shirt almost right off my body (tore the sleeve right off at the seam). 

 

 

What helps = only time. 

Sometimes talking to my immediate family who is with me at the time. They assure me that I am safe and won't let me become unsafe.

 

I have this at night also (wake up, heart pounding, in a total rage, wanting to break things). So when I'm in a period 

where this is happening regularly, removing my computer from my room so I don't destroy it.

 

Also, does anyone know what this might be? (What is causing it-- cortisol?) 

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FightingForHope

Help, yes. Absolutely yes. I have ripped a shirt almost right off my body (tore the sleeve right off at the seam). 

 

 

What helps = only time. 

Sometimes talking to my immediate family who is with me at the time. They assure me that I am safe and won't let me become unsafe.

 

I have this at night also (wake up, heart pounding, in a total rage, wanting to break things). So when I'm in a period 

where this is happening regularly, removing my computer from my room so I don't destroy it.

 

Also, does anyone know what this might be? (What is causing it-- cortisol?) 

 

I also have anger when I wake up in the middle of the night or early morning - around the times they say cortisol beings to spike, so maybe it is related?

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SkyBlue

Very interesting! It sounds like it could be related. 

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