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JanCarol

JanCarol - undiagnosed! Off all "bipolar" drugs!

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JanCarol

Thanks Andy!  Yes, I'm quite thrilled that the YouTube rabbit hole brought me to his channel!  I'm really happy with the brush technique and crave it.

 

I think I'll go do it now!

 

Sun, today for me, how about you?

 

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Carmie

Hi JanCarol, 

 

Thanks for your message the other day. 

 

Ive just read a bit of your thread. You’ve done really well to be a success story, a great inspiration to all. 

 

In your last post you were talking about acupuncture. I want to go back to the acupuncturist too. I want to see if my acupuncturist  can do the NADA protocol for me. 

 

A friend of mine used to practice it on people who were going through drug n alcohol rehabilitation. I wasn’t on any meds at the time and I didn’t know anything about withdrawals but I went n had it done as it was so relaxing, good for sleep.

 

In one of your posts you were a bit stressed about housework. Have u ever checked out FlyLady on the Internet? She’s really good, she gets you to do little things every day so u no longer have to spring clean. I haven’t been following her lately but I want to ge back into that too. 

 

I have a lot of little things i want to incorporate back into my life.

 

You’re a great writer by the way. 

 

Have a happy day☀️☀️☀️

 

 

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JanCarol

Hey @Carmie- thanks for stopping by.  The NADA protocol is a detox protocol, and we don't recommend detox while in withdrawal.  It might be fine for addiction recovery, but might be too stimulating for withdrawal.  We've got articles about that here - generally acupuncture, we want soothing, not stimulating treatments.  (much to the chagrin of many acupuncturists!):  acupuncture

 

Thanks for the FlyLady tip.  I suspect I'm too far gone for "a little each day" when each day is spent keeping my head above water - there really isn't much left over for "extra projects."  So the backlog - it will have to wait until the miracle of "more energy" (whatever that is) comes to roost in my body.

 

I'm here to report - Phenibut taper.  (I will update previous post on this, as well)

 

PVC's are back.  The ear sensor on my HeartMath monitor no longer works.  HeartMath cautions that people with PVC's might not be able to get the HeartMath monitor to work.  And sure enough, my heart is too wobbly for the ear sensor to pick it up.  I can still use the thumb sensor, though.  Sometimes I can actually feel the two parts of my heart lub-dub-dubbing in different time signatures.

 

The plus side to tapering Phenibut, is that my dreams - and my memory of them - is returning.  I now have some subconscious imagery and relationships to chew on during the day.  These dreams are nourishment to me - when I have something like this to wrap my head around and contemplate the different ways they come together - it helps my process immensely.

 

I'm getting over strep throat - it's almost made me sleep like a normal person (only more so - hypersomnia, but when you're sick, that's actually good.).

 

 

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Carmie

Thanks JanCarol, 

 

I knew the liver point was detoxing but I was going to ask him to omit that one. 

 

I checked out the link you gave me but I’ll have to do more research to see which acupuncture points will be best. I went to an acupuncturist for the majority of last year. I’m hoping to go again soon. He’s really nice n will do pretty much anything I ask. He helped a lot with my low blood pressure at one stage. 

 

Hope all goes well with your tapering. I’ve never heard of Phenibut so I checked it out. Boy, there are so many evil meds on the market. 

 

Glad you’re keeping your head above water.

 

Sending hugs🤗

 

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FarmGirlWorks
On 4/17/2018 at 10:17 PM, JanCarol said:

My brother calls us Religious POW survivors.

@JanCarol, I was looking up "spiritual emergence" and came across some of your posts from April as I watched a film tonight about spiritual emergence and some of it seemed to correlate with the WD experience. However! Kept reading your posts and this particular one resonated as I was adopted and raised by a hyper-religious mother. I love the phrase "religious POW survivors" as that is definitely what my brother and I are too.  And I had tendonitis for several months instead of weeks as well. 🙂

 

Much of what you say are things I've recently thought about and this esp. is knocking around my skull: are these neuro emotions or my native state? I am unsure... although the depth of depression I feel now seems more than it ever was. But it could also be the age I am at (perimenopausal) or that I have no work and spend too much time alone. I want to come out the other side of this withdrawal with a deeper relationship to spirituality but it may be all the other activities I do to support that and not WD. I dunno. Thanks for these posts whatever the case.

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JanCarol

Hey FarmGirlWorks - thanks for stopping by!

 

1 hour ago, FarmGirlWorks said:

I want to come out the other side of this withdrawal with a deeper relationship to spirituality but it may be all the other activities I do to support that and not WD. I dunno. Thanks for these posts whatever the case.

 

Yeah, withdrawal is a lot like "Shamanic Death."  All the unnecessary stuff is taken away from you, your ego is reduced to ash, and it's up to you to build what is next.  You get all of the "doing" taken away, and are left with "being," and that's often not a very comfortable place.

 

Looking into Spiritual Awakening, Spiritual Emergence is an excellent direction to take.  It is hard being alone, and - I have to say that the Spiritual Journey I've been on has not really given me fellowship.  I have y'all, here on SA, who understand - and I'm trying to cultivate Community (but they don't understand the Withdrawal and post-drug side of things).

 

You've been off about a year - this is about when your "native state" starts coming through.  The good things come through too - the things that got left behind when you were drugged.  We were younger then, and didn't think that a feather falling out of a tree was a special moment - but now, oh my!  Look!  A feather fell out of the tree, just for me....  so your sensitivity to Beauty is increased as well as your sensitivity to "Ugh and Ick."  Noise, clutter, Drama - you will no longer have tolerance for the things that get in the way of your Spirit.

 

So from my perspective - cultivating your Spiritual self is an excellent (maybe the best) way to heal from withdrawal.  I just wrote about Practice, here, and I see you have a regular Practice to help cultivate your Dance with your own Soul.  Sometimes it feels pointless - it's always more fun when it's shared, but really - only you can dance with your own Soul.  I really don't have any suggestions, other than to accept the miracle that is now you.  You survived it!  

This caused me to want to Give Back.  So I offer Shamanism to the community - not as a teacher, but as a navigator, opening the conditions for folks to Experience their Inner Wisdom for themselves.  As they say in Shamanic circles, "Holding the Space" for them.  

 

It sounds like you are doing great - keep Dancing!

 

And I hope you see the Sun today!

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DMV64

I look forward to finding out what my native state is. Even though I have 17 years in the program part of them were on psychiatric medication. Although when I first got clean and sober I was only on a little bit of Clonopin, really for about eight or nine years before the whole big mess of poly drugging started.

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JanCarol
On 6/12/2018 at 4:17 PM, Carmie said:

I’ve never heard of Phenibut so I checked it out. Boy, there are so many evil meds on the market. 

 

Yeah, except this was a gentler way to calm the clutching badger in my heart than blood pressure drugs or a benzo.  And it's been taken away.  (naturally Phenibut is awful as a recreational drug, but my dose was 1/5-1/10th of what they take for a "high")

 

If I can't calm this thing, they will talk about stronger drugs, or ablation or surgical fixes, and after my "luck" with surgeries, I hate the idea of going under the knife ever again.  It is tempting to just get a bunch while I am in the USA and hope I can smuggle it in past Customs - but - bringing a banned drug to Australia is a sure fired way to get on TV, and not in a good way.

 

I have breathing, yoga - and I noticed about 5 years ago that - this thing was stronger than any breathing practice or yoga technique I can do.  It's stronger than cardio fitness will help with.  But when I described that to the docs, they just shrugged, not realising that my 42 years of yoga practice is um, usually amazing, and that I'm used to being able to control my breathing and heart rate at will.  And when that doesn't work - it is somewhat alarming.

 

On 6/14/2018 at 9:12 AM, FarmGirlWorks said:

was struck over and over by it is a "life's work" and just isn't over when you complete the 12 steps or whatever...

 

OH YEAH FGW - this is what i mean when I say (frequently) that life comes in windows and waves.  The withdrawal is done and dusted - but - still - I have relationships, life issues, health issues.  Every day that I'm not fighting, is a day I'm losing ground.

 

Yes, I get jealous when I see other people who seem so effortless in their ability to get the kids from school, work a full time job - but I also see a lot of people who are in relationships and jobs that are killing them - and they might even know it, but believe that this killing job or toxic relationship "is the right thing to do" or can't see a way out of it - and so - I watch them die.  I will never accept a killing job or toxic relationship again.  I don't have time or energy for it.  So - maybe I'm not jealous, because these people may not be as effortless as it looks from the outside.

 

We all live with a society that is killing itself and the planet at breakneck speed.  To be sensitive and "not fit in," as I see it, is a good quality to have in times like these.  And Sandra Ingerman was talking about dreaming into the future - to imagine what our descendants will be like, how will they heal from illness or injury?  She was asked, "isn't this just fantasy - fluffy unicorns and rainbows and science fiction?"  And Sandra said something about - what is the harm in dreaming a better future?  Maybe it will help to imagine this world as a better place?  This goes along with what I have read in John Perkins' book, "The World is As You Dream It"

 

On 6/14/2018 at 9:12 AM, FarmGirlWorks said:

It's for nothing if I just to get back to my pre-drug state which was not working most of the time.

 

Exactly!  I don't like who she was! (me, not you, I didn't know you then!)  I was a selfish, self-centered, greedy, grabbing, manipulative, self-righteous (insert noun here).  

Now that I am - as you say:

On 6/14/2018 at 9:12 AM, FarmGirlWorks said:

reduced me. I was going to say to "nothing" but there could be lots more that could be taken away. (Sudden fear there).

 

Nothing is not a bad thing.  Yes, it could be worse, more could be removed.  The removal will continue until you get it.  I'm still losing things (I think).  I have an image of Self that is still unkind, still self-destructive - there is always more to be learned.  I cling to these last threads of Self, as if that's all I have - but from all that I've learned, I know (intellectually, not emotionally or experientially) that letting go of that Self-ish-ness will be a great gift to myself and to others.  But I still cling to it, and it's the centre of my "problems" right now.  The weird thing is - that I can see that,(just like my friends who can see their killing jobs and toxic relationships) but there's still , stubbornness, a holding on to let go of.

 

On 6/14/2018 at 9:12 AM, FarmGirlWorks said:

Frankly, it is not the creativity (that will come back, I am sure) but the discipline and follow-thru that needs to be cultivated...

 

Oh yeah.  I'm afraid my disciplines are still very simple.  A little yoga, a little meditation. Dancing with my Soul in my body - that's a quote from a great yoga teacher (to the stars!) Shiva Rea.  She says that Practice is like Dancing with your Soul.  I say that only you can do it - and sometimes it's like wrestling with your soul.  Yesterday I HAD to go to the gym.  Why did I perceive it like that?  I didn't have to traipse through war-torn streets, there was fresh clean water at the drinking fountain, I was not harassed or confronted in any way (people were friendly), I had my own good music to listen to.  But why is it a struggle to go to the gym?  Why is this part of my Dance with my Soul - less than pleasurable?

 

It turns out - it was thinking about going to the gym that was less than pleasurable, the gym itself was fine, and it was good to move my body, and the magnesium bath afterwards was heavenly.  So why do I spiral myself up like that, and think that the gym is not pleasurable?


The same thing applies to "I have to cook this meal," or "I have to make some juice," or even "I have to write in my journal."      :P

 

So - it's not just the discipline - one foot in front of the other, one step at a time - but also the attitude towards that Practice.

 

On 6/14/2018 at 5:07 PM, manymoretodays said:

Thank you JanCarol for the space

 

I'm happy for this discussion to continue - my focus is about Spiritual Awakening and Emergence, surviving extreme states & emotions - and - striving to be the Best Human Being I can create.

 

I'm not a 12 Stepper (though I have some near & dear to me), but I'm happy for this to take place as long as folks are here talking about it (hunh, as soon as I say that, the well will dry up, but okay!)

 

On 6/14/2018 at 9:11 PM, DMV64 said:

I look forward to finding out what my native state is.

 

Hey D - it's nothing to hurry towards.  Because really - we never actually get back to our native state.

 

Think of is as a train wreck or a war.  We can get out of it, and survive - and even thrive! - but are we ever really the same again?  

 

In my case - I don't want to be the same again (and I think FGW was expressing a similar feeling) - but I do want to address the issues as they come up, and try to approach my Practice, my relationships and my Life in such a way as to honour this gift I've been given. 


My pre-drug state - I didn't see life as a gift.  Now - I do.  It's this attitude that keeps me going, keeps me trying, keeps me going to the gym (and journalling) even when I don't understand it all.  I don't need to.  I just need gratitude for what I've been given.

Edited by JanCarol

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manymoretodays

I found a spot in "Finding Meaning" that we could resurrect..........and it hasn't been posted on since August of 2014.   

 

Soooo.......with that being said I'll go ahead and move some of these more recent posts specific to AA..........if you are looking for them.

 

I know JC has said she doesn't mind the hijack/not hijack as it has to do with spiritual awakenings and further development of such........ maybe we can do some cross posting or something.  I know of some other members who have more to say as well as far as benefits to non benefits of traditional AA.........when I run across something,  I will try and copy it over to the new/old/resurrected thread above.

 

I just use a lot of discernment with AA at this point.  It HAS been a nice touchpoint for me........ to finding some other means of spiritual awakenings that need not be done in solitude.  I do a fair amount in solitude as well.

 

It has helped me a lot with W/D.  It did take awhile to find those who were good fits and understood...... a least even a little bit about my W/D.  

 

And I just Love my new medal/amulet with not only Bill yet Bob too on the face.  My trusty bill/bob head pocket gizmo guide to the Universe and Meaning.  B) 

 

Sunday, sunday.........

 

Love, peace, healing/inrecovery, and growth,

mmt

Edited by manymoretodays

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Serenity23

What an inspiring post!
I love how you wrote that only you are in charge of your moods.
I wish I could do what you do.
After about 30 years of being on various low dose SSRIs or SSNRIs I was diagnosed with bipolar 2. My gut instinct is that what started as depression/anxiety flipped due to the meds.
I wish I could do what you did, but for now I am feeling well on Lamictal. But your post gives me hope that maybe someday I will be also able to take control of this myself without meds. But I'm told once you're bipolar you need meds for life. It's all rather confusing.

I'm curious what type of magnesium and how many milligrams you take.

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JanCarol

Thanks MMT - that last post really belonged on a 12 step thread, and I really appreciated FarmWorksGirl's response!

 

FWG - "Badger" is truly an American thing - I may live in Australia, but I'm a born "Yank" (Aussies call every American a "Yank" whether they are Northern or Southern or Western.  AND for slang, like Kristine so deftly used, as rhyming slang, they call us "Sepo" for "Septic Tank" because it rhymes with Yank.  That's how twisted Aussie slang is!)

 

I have a special relationship with Badger, and right now, Badger and my heart have been having a long discussion.  You'd probably have to read my old thread to find it.

 

On 6/19/2018 at 10:54 PM, Serenity23 said:

But I'm told once you're bipolar you need meds for life. It's all rather confusing.

 

Yeah, I was told that too.  I was told that by my best friend - who is a doctor!  It took me a few years to believe her, but when I couldn't get better, I thought - it must be true.

 

You can do what I do.  Only you can control your moods.  All the drugs do is dampen down the spikes.  When they do that, they damp down the spikes of pleasure, too.  If your "Bipolar" was induced by drugs, then it is not really "Bipolar," it is drug induced symptoms.  90% of people diagnosed as "bipolar" got there this way.  There are a few (very few, half of 1%) who have traditional bipolar, the 20-30% of America that are on mood affecting drugs are not that.  Now it seems like everybody and their dog is bipolar.  And "bipolar II" (that's what I "was" too), is a junk diagnosis = diag-nonsense to get insurance and classify someone as more dangerous, more sick, more "broken brain" more diseased than they really are. 

 

Have you read Robert Whitaker's "Anatomy of an Epidemic?"  In it, he describes how - depression used to be a once-in-a-lifetime thing.  Everybody had it - but it cleared up and went away.  Whitaker makes the case that since we started drugging depression, it has become chronic.  Even bipolar and schizophrenia people used to get better and go back to work.  Now with the drugs - not so much.

 

You cannot tell how much someone is suffering when they are on mood disabling and psych disrupting drugs.  That's not the real you.  The real you lies beneath the drugs, which are a layer, like a blanket of cotton wool, to wrap you up and "keep you safe" from the scary emotions.  But emotions never killed anybody (it's the reactions that are dangerous).  When you learn to respond instead of react - you get better.  Your life gets easier.  You find yourself not attracted to the dramas and the spikes.

 

I know I used to love the dramas and the spikes.  I wanted my life to be better than anything I saw on TV or in the movies.  I came close (in a bad way), but when I let go of that - the need to feel something whether good or bad - the need to make things happen so that I could feel.  The excitement of driving things to a frantic and desperate level.  The desire to control it all, laughing maniacally - "I will prevail!!!"  Yeah, pretty dramatic.

 

Then there's the deep, unrelenting fatigue and depression.  That's why I got the "Bipolar II" diagnosis.  Years where I could barely rise and take care of myself, my job, my house.  Maybe even decades, because I danced on that line of functionality for decades.  I could work a few years, then crash, then marriage went bad, deeper crash.  Then freedom and hard work for a few more years - and then crash.  I still struggle with functionality, and I'm fortunate to be supported by my husband.   But - depression is your body telling you something.  

 

It may be that your depression is really fatigue - your body is so tired from being artificially "antidepressed" - many people suffer a form of adrenal fatigue, or end up diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue or Fibromyalgia.  It may be that your life weighs down on you so heavily that it is Pressing upon you, making you DePressed.  I didn't understand how much of my marriage was DePression until it was over.  I still marvel at how bad it got, and how much damage was inflicted by our unhappiness, and continued to learn about "what happened" in that situation 20 years on.

 

Many of the extreme emotions are reactions to the environment.  Trauma, bullying, pressure, stress.  The rest of the extreme emotions are there because you feed them.  There is pleasure in those extremes.  So I figured - would I rather be numbed completely - or would I rather level out those spikes myself?  You can do it, and it's not easy work, but it is oh-so-rewarding.

 

The other thing I decided was - I was unhappy and miserable on the drugs.  I reckoned I had 30 years experience at being unhappy and miserable, and would do fine to be unhappy and miserable without the drugs.  But what happened was different - as I came off the drugs, I came alive and found things about myself that had been dead and buried on the drugs.  I've engaged with myself, and I'm learning to like her!  (that, too, is hard work!)

 

Your story sounds very much like a drug induced "bipolar."  That's not really bipolar. That's a drug induced condition (which the DSM has a category for, but for some reason practitioners don't like to use it).   You don't need "drugs for life."   You can do it - but it is not a cake walk.  If it's something you want, commit to it, do it oh-so-slowly and oh-so-carefully and oh-so-gently, and you will walk away from psychiatrists forever.

 

Edited by JanCarol
correct tense

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healingspiral

love reading your story and the aftercare/things you do now to take care! thank you!!!

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Rosetta

Hi JanCarol, 

I was just thinking about you.  Hope all is well!

Rosetta

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Rabe

Loved reading that JanCarol!!! Thank you! 💜

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JanCarol

Hi All!

 

I don't like to announce when I am taking International Travel - it's a safety and vulnerability thing.  But now that I am back, I can say - I've been travelling in the USA, see family & friends, and to take a Healing Ceremonial 4-day Retreat into the hills of Kentucky with a dear friend.

 

Jet lag has corrected my delayed cycle sleep.  Last night I stayed up to 11:30, and slept till 7:30.  The night before was rougher, fell asleep at 9:30 and was up every hour, but didn't want to get up.   But for the most part, I am sleeping at night, and much less productive than usual.  The late nights are when the "good stuff" happens, and I suppose in the name of health I can try this for awhile, but at some point I will likely get frustrated with my low output, and pull an all-nighter to get something done - and then - wham.  Out of whack again.

 

However - I'm fighting the "self fulfilling prophecy," just because it has happened before, doesn't mean it will happen again.  Perhaps I will find a way, instead, to be more productive in the daytime.

 

Unlike other jet lag events, I am feeling well rested, and seem to still have a choice.  Sometimes the jet lag gives me no choice, and I drop where I am standing.  No choice.  Though I overdid a bit yesterday, and dropped between 7-8pm while hubby was at yoga.  Woke up to have dinner - and - that's why I stayed up as late as 11:30 instead of the 10 pm bedtime.

 

So - I'm baaaaaack!  Thanks to all of you who visited and expressed caring - and I hope that your journeys are going well, that your windows are bright, and your waves have tubes that you can surf.

 

And - as always - I hope you see the Sun today!

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FarmGirlWorks
On 6/20/2018 at 6:29 AM, JanCarol said:

When you learn to respond instead of react - you get better.

I just re-read that previous post and this resonated deeply. I am not sure how to respond (I'm in a deep depression) but I am pretty sure I am reacting by being fatigued and stressed. Dunno.

 

Welcome back!

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JanCarol

Hi FGW!

 

8 minutes ago, FarmGirlWorks said:

I am not sure how to respond (I'm in a deep depression) but I am pretty sure I am reacting by being fatigued and stressed. Dunno.

 

Oh, this sounds more like depletion than the emotional issues I'm talking about. 

 

Are you on the floor and cannot rise?  Then maybe you're not meant to!

 

Does it feel like, as you walk across the room to try and accomplish something, that you are moving through hip-deep (or deeper) mud?  

 

This is your body's way of telling you that rest and rejuvenation, nutrition and parasympathetic response is what you need.

 

Here's my favourite vid on the topic of depression:

 

So many of us who have been drugged have been artificially propped up for years.  That trellis that Rhi was talking about - after so many years it becomes rotted and riddled with termites, and it can no longer hold up the vine anymore.  Dr. Anne-Marie Chiasson says that all of us - especially women - over 40 - are depleted, and what she prescribes for this is grounding.  We need to draw our energy from the Earth (not the computer, or the TV, or even books - but time in Nature, tai chi, yoga, drawing energy up from the Earth itself) in order to replenish.  And in the case of those of us who have been drugged, it may take 3-5 years of Deep Rest in order to replenish our resources.  In that 3-5 years, you learn so much about self care, balance, maintenance, nutrition and replenishing choices - that after that period of Deep Rest, they can become incorporated into your daily life.

 

I may always struggle with the line of "how much is too much?" in my life.  But at least, now I am aware of it, and do not anticipate that I will ever "go down," like I did in the past, for years at a time.  At most, I "go down" (as I did earlier this year) for a month or so.  Not long enough to "seek medical attention," but long enough to adjust my routine to compensate for the need to Deep Rest, again.

 

Responding is almost more about relationships.  Someone at the supermarket yells at you and calls you an idiot because you bumped into them (this happened to me) - do you snarl back (react) or puff up, "What's your problem?" and take it personally?  These are all reactions.  A response is more like, "Oh, I'm so sorry," and realizing that they snarled - not at you - but at themselves, and you don't need to take it personally.  Response means taking a breath for perspective.  If you want to address them with just a little tweak (a response with a bit of bite) you can say something like, "Oh, I'm so sorry you're having a rough time."  Responding to let them know that their anger has more to do with their own issues.

 

But that deep breath, in responding, is vital.  It puts in a break between your immediate reaction, and a thoughtful response.

 

I still say stuff I regret, I am no Buddha!  But at least I am more mindful than I was when I got into this mess decades ago.  And because of that gift - I wouldn't trade the mess for anything.  I have learned what I've learned - from the mess itself.

 

Remember:  sun - today!  (and put your feet on the good, clean Earth, if you can!)
 

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FarmGirlWorks
4 hours ago, JanCarol said:

And in the case of those of us who have been drugged, it may take 3-5 years of Deep Rest in order to replenish our resources.  In that 3-5 years, you learn so much about self care, balance, maintenance, nutrition and replenishing choices - that after that period of Deep Rest, they can become incorporated into your daily life.

I was hoping you would wisely expound on depression -- thank you. The above resonates with me as I have an inner/gut knowing that I will move from this place at 53ish... and I started this journey last year just after I turned 50. So, the timeline makes sense to me. There is a transformation/transmutation rumbling deep inside and often this year it has been painful physically but mostly psychologically. However I can see that a few body pains/tightness are shifting. If the body shifts, so does the mind.

 

4 hours ago, JanCarol said:

But at least, now I am aware of it, and do not anticipate that I will ever "go down," like I did in the past, for years at a time.  At most, I "go down" (as I did earlier this year) for a month or so.  Not long enough to "seek medical attention," but long enough to adjust my routine to compensate for the need to Deep Rest, again.

I dream of that -- months instead of years. Today I was beginning to write "my story with alcohol" for my AA sponsor and realize that I've been depressed for most of my life and have used exercise, reading/tv, alcohol, and then pharmaceuticals to self-soothe. So the video (fantastic) was right on target for dropping that Story and the exhaustion that comes from trying to figure out how to continue that Story even if my gut doesn't want to. I have a lot of ego around The Story and think that is what is being (slowly) dissolved thru kundalini and AA. 

 

You're the best!

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bubbles
Quote

I was talking to a friend over lunch, she had dropped off from 1/4 dose of her SSRI a month ago.  I warned her that - the symptoms of withdrawal take many months to work out.  I don't know how well she heard me ("I'm fine, I'll be right as rain" I hear this a lot, until it's no longer "right as rain"), but I told her to give herself permission to have symptoms for up to 3 years. 

 

I saw this in another thread, but thought I'd respond to it here. How did she take that 3 years? Was it doctor recommended?

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JanCarol

G'day all!  Came here to post Phenibut tapering, but first - 

 

On 4/17/2018 at 12:29 AM, JanCarol said:

So - stuff in my house, stuff outside my house, all of this tangle of darkness is bothering me, and I feel helpless to do much about it. 

 

The Ceremony made clear the chasm of communication between hubby and myself.  I cannot say it enough (some of you have met him) Hubby is a great man, gentle of spirit, an excellent organizer of trips & kitchens.

 

So - the garden - he has chopped a lot of the trees, and  after the Ceremony, we have talked about what we need.  Everything is a compromise, but it feels a lot less powerless, a lot less helpless.  I'm pretty useless in the garden, but I can pay attention to little things - like chopping out a path that's overgrown, or moving rocks to the bases of the coffee trees to keep Mr. Turkey from digging them up.  He got a basil plant, which inspired him to dig up another garden bed.  This garden bed will absorb a lot of the trees from the big cutting, as in Hegel Kultur, you bury trees to support the soil.

 

So - I do my little lame tasks, and I make sure he's got good music for his tasks.

 

Every day now, I do something in the kitchen, whether that's fry up chicken livers for my breakfast this week, or make bone broth or kefir, squeeze orange juice, or cut pineapples.  It's not the mainstay of the cooking, but at least I'm contributing to my self-care.  (honestly, except for the fruit, these are tasks he'd be hopeless at, anyway)

 

The anger has disseminated, and the kitchen has been ordered (more tasks coming with that).  My original anger was about the trees and the stagnant, unused (unusable due to broken pump) water tank.  In making the kitchen, we compromised, and repair of the water tank is coming.

 

In so many ways - I thought of this as I stood in the kitchen for 45 minutes today (that's hard work for me!) with my chicken livers - I am better than I have ever been since coming here to live.  I do more for myself and for him than I've been able to do in decades.

So - the anger was useful, and painful, and I had to go through that.  The Ceremony helped make a lot of it clear and opened my heart to the way to communicate better with Hubby.  I'm still not a Buddha and lose it a lot with him.

 

(example:  I got the car washed.  They used perfumes.  It stinks.  When I drive it below 60 kph, I put the windows half down to air it out.  When he drove, I asked him to do that, as the purfume is poisonous and sickening.  He pushed the button for the drivers side, and - as it has an automatic feature, it went ALL the way down.  So he pushed to raise it, and it went all the way up.  I told him he could interrupt the automatic feature to achieve half-way, but he just looked at me helplessly.  I had to reach across him and show him how to lower the window half way.  It's hard for me not to rip him a new one when he can be so thick sometimes.)

 

On 4/20/2018 at 6:58 PM, Shep said:

I was thinking of second attention (mindfulness) as an end-all state, a goal that had no exit into something more or higher, but this is lending itself to a way of shedding personal identity ("your old patterns") and having a teacher - a state of Grace -  as both a method and a map to something much more meaningful. Very useful information! 


Actually, Buddhism (the science of Mind) and the Vedas have spelled out the levels of Attention & Transformation so much more clearly and accurately than I ever could do.

I tried to read some of it in the 90's, and - it's interesting.  When you read the stuff - you can only understand up to the point you have developed, and observe that there is something Beyond that.  But then it's discouraging to realise that there are 100 verses AFTER that....and that it is all spelled out, accurately described, by someone who has Experienced that.  "Okay, I recognise myself here, I've got this one, and look, here's the next one - I don't quite understand it, but - there it is, I know what to look for now."  THEN:  "OMG there are dozens of steps beyond that, too!"

So I haven't gotten to my Phenibut Tapering notes - but I'll post this for now.

 

And yes, saw the Sun today, and saved $300 on handles for the new kitchen cabinets.  Yes!  It's being built, hubby goes for first build inspection tomorrow.

 

 

 

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JanCarol

G'day!

 

I took Carmie's advice and went to FlyLady.  Egads.

 

I felt shamed, judged, scolded - very much like my Mom made me feel.  Oh no, FlyLady is not for me.  Then she wants you to buy her stuff while she's scolding people who "don't commit."  Oh no, no thank you.

 

Sorry Carmie, but I did give her a look.

 

Bubbles responds to my post elsewhere:

On 7/28/2018 at 12:53 PM, bubbles said:
Quote

I was talking to a friend over lunch, she had dropped off from 1/4 dose of her SSRI a month ago.  I warned her that - the symptoms of withdrawal take many months to work out.  I don't know how well she heard me ("I'm fine, I'll be right as rain" I hear this a lot, until it's no longer "right as rain"), but I told her to give herself permission to have symptoms for up to 3 years. 

 

I saw this in another thread, but thought I'd respond to it here. How did she take that 3 years? Was it doctor recommended?

 

OK. She has been on Paxil / Arapax for less than a year.  I cried when I found out that she went on it.  I was like, "why didn't you call me?" and "why THAT drug?"  (supposedly it had no interactions with the NSAID she was taking for pain, I'm like WHATEVER - I thought they were DONE prescribing Paxil...)

 

(RANT MODE:  why is it more acceptable to take these kinds of problems to a Doctor, than it is to call your friends and ask for help?)

I managed to get a "Dear Doctor" letter to her practitioner, and because I used science-y talk, and references, the doctor was impressed.  But of course - our SA techniques of crushing and weighing tablets or making liquid were not accepted.  So it was 1/2 tablet, then 1/4 tablet - but with longer holds than the doctor would normally have suggested.

 

So her taper went like this:  2 months on 50%, 3 months on 25% - then she forgot to take it and CT'd off of that - only a month ago.  (from a mod perspective, this is a nightmarish taper - and - I get to watch my friend do this!).  

 

So this was a doctor supervised taper - sort of.  She's my friend, she has access to me.  She didn't listen to me, but she did understand that if she was making larger cuts, she needed longer holds.  But she didn't have the patience to hold as long as she should have.

 

How did she take the news that it might be 3 years of symptoms?  She doesn't believe me.  She's only one month out, and you know there's a "honeymoon period."  She said "oh yeah, I've been moodier lately."  

Paxil is a real bear to come off of, I'm hoping because this was her first time putting her hand in the badger hole, that she might come out okay. But Paxil has some nasty teeth.  

So another one to pray for a smooth, successful ride.

 

OKAY, finally, Phenibut tapering notes:  Cut to 125 mg on 26th July.  My dreams are buried again, I sometimes wake up reaching out for something - dancing, smiling, something - but can never remember what it is.  The PVC's continue to get more intrusive.  I have an appointment with the new, snotty Orthomolecular doc later this month (she scolded me for being on a "banned drug" and was in general quite judgy, but I don't have anyone else to manage my thyroid right now)...but I doubt she will have helpful suggestions that I haven't already come up with.  Diet, breathing, exercise, meditation, magnesium....yea.  Got that.  Not interested in her melatonin solution, though may try it again out of desperation.

 

Sleep is slipping - I've been watching it happen.  One night it was pain.  Another night it was getting up at 5:30 to see the lunar eclipse.  Gradually, the sleep slips until now it is 2 am to 10 am, or even noon.  And there's the "got nothing done again today" feeling that causes me to spend "just a little time" on the computer after hubby goes to bed.  And so the sleep slips into delayed cycle again.

Mood is mostly good - I don't have the anger of a month or two ago, and I feel more hopeful about the way things are shaping up in my life.  I need to reach out and offer my shaman services to other venues.  Scary, but - perhaps that's what is next.

 

I saw the moon rise over some beautiful mountains - the Glass House Mountains - on the night of the full moon.  Breathtaking!

 

MoonoverGlassHouse.jpg

 

Here's the whole range (from the ocean, so these two mountains are on the left)

picture-new-glass-house-mountains.jpg

 

I hiked around the big one - 3rd from the left - the day after the moonrise (it's considered bad form to climb them, but white people still do).  These are less than an hour from my house, and about the same distance from Saint Steve Irwin's Australia Zoo.  (in fact the road to get there is Steve Irwin Way, named in his honour.)

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manymoretodays
1 hour ago, JanCarol said:

I felt shamed, judged, scolded - very much like my Mom made me feel.  Oh no, FlyLady is not for me.  Then she wants you to buy her stuff while she's scolding people who "don't commit."  Oh no, no thank you.

 

This made me out loud laugh.  I've been to FlyLady........some good ideas.  I'm trying to get my white board going.......with erasable colored pens.........to prioritize some of the stuff I am so behind on.  Make a weekly list.  Give myself colored stars when I totally complete something........any task that needs to be done yesterday.

 

Well......if that did not work out for you.........I will send you my copy of Don Asletts,  How to clean practically everything.  COD.  B)

Must have been during my obsessive Effexor days that I cleaned like the crazy woman I am.  No longer obsessive on the cleaning though.

I even went to a cleaning supply place and got special equipment and potions to clean with............which of course I still have some of.  Gallon jugs of dilutable lavender scented potions.  The best spray bottles ever.  Chamois(?) cloths to dust with.  My special lambie wool duster for the ceilings and such.  

Me and Betsey Ross cat just scoop the dust now and top it with whipped cream and cherries for desert.

 

Hope your new Orthomolecular doc is a great one.

I did a short sleep night myself last........got to get out of this low down funk fatigue ugh.

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth baby growth.......I can feel my synapses in recovery now.......

mmt

Edited by manymoretodays

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bubbles

@JanCarol

 

I'm sorry that your friend didn't listen to you. Neither did my friend. :( Hopefully my example is planting the seed and another time she'll try more slowly.

 

With regard to a water taper, I think doctors can be concerned about accuracy. Still, there is no reason why your friend's doctor couldn't have prescribed decreasing amounts and used a compounding pharmacy - there are loads of them around, and it's not difficult, albeit more expensive.

 

FlyLady - yes, I agree. I do try to do it, but I use an app and skip her stuff entirely. The app is Home Routines. I think I paid for it, but it wasn't much. You can do it your own way with a notebook though and skip her entirely. I like the concept of it. There is also a lovely lady on youtube (Diane in Denmark) who used to be a FlyLady consultant (?) and I like her stuff. I haven't ever bought anything from her (and not sure why I would - initially FlyLady was all "make do with what you have" for the control journal etc. I did make a control journal (and I did a recipe one too) and it is really useful.

 

Love your photos. That part of the country is truly beautiful.

 

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bubbles
Quote

How did she take the news that it might be 3 years of symptoms?  She doesn't believe me.  She's only one month out, and you know there's a "honeymoon period."  She said "oh yeah, I've been moodier lately."  

 

I think this honeymoon period is what shoots us in the foot, as it were, because it's seen as "you got off it successfully" and then "relapsed". Frustrating. No research into it, either.

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AbbyElfie

JanCarol - I just wanted to say hi and congrats on your successes! I was struck by where you mentioned healing being a spiritual process as much as a physical/mental, and I have always been drawn to shamanism. Ever since I participated in 2 ayahuasca ceremonies I've felt a deep connection to it. Since being in withdrawal, however, I've experienced a real spiritual crisis - my OCD obsessions have latched on to my spiritual practice in recent years (since I was about 25, I'm 28 now) and convinced me that I'm 'damned' and permanently cut off from god or the divine. It harks back to my long-time fears of hell and damnation, but is so pronounced during withdrawal that I've been convinced of dark presences at times and sensations of being possessed. It's very hard for me to engage in any spiritual practice as such now, as (it's very hard to explain) I've developed a deep fear that it's not who I am and I'm lying to myself and everybody else. Yet I know having a spiritual connection is the only reason I was able to start tapering and will get through it.

 

So yeah, I just wanted to say it's good to hear others who have interest in the shamanic path. It's very difficult to find support from professionals who approach withdrawal in an integrative way, although I know that's what I need.

 

Much love to you and happy to hear of your amazing healing x

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JanCarol

Hi MMT Bubbles and Elfie!

 

First, I came here today because - @FarmGirlWorks talked about the NADA protocol.  I think it was her.  And - lo and behold, a Madness Radio episode came up about it from Sept 2016.  Looks amazing!  I take back my cautions - like she said, except for the liver point (which is the detox point), it sounds relaxing and soothing, and helpful to people in stress and distress.  (what is the difference between stress and dis-stress?)  I like that - the way they do it at the Freedom Center is - everyone gets their needles put in, and they sit around in a circle and have a meeting (not quite 12-step - but a peer mentoring thing) while the needles are in for 45 minutes.

 

MMT writes:
 

On 8/2/2018 at 2:25 AM, manymoretodays said:

Must have been during my obsessive Effexor days that I cleaned like the crazy woman I am.  No longer obsessive on the cleaning though.

 

The only time I've had a pristine house was when I was manic.  It was nice having a pristine house, but the manic part left a lot to be desired.

 

On 8/2/2018 at 2:25 AM, manymoretodays said:

Hope your new Orthomolecular doc is a great one.

 

Well, no, she's a bully.  And she refuses to think outside of her boxes, slots, etc.  

 

I talked to my GP about her, and she smiled and said, "How do you like her?"  I said, "I think she doesn't have very good social skills."  My GP informed me that this doctor used to work at her practice, but they had to let her go because people didn't like her.  I said, "She might be brilliant, so I'm willing to tolerate some meanness if she can help," and my GP smiled and said, "Why can't you be brilliant and nice?"

 

Good point.

So - trepidation about seeing this doctor, I keep hoping to get notice from my old orthomolecular doc that she's found a practice to work in.

 

Other good news - I passed my tests at the cardiologist. (hubby said, "all that study has done you good!" 😉)  Yes, I have bigeminy ectopic PVC's (fancy words to explain that the bottom of my heart beats twice sometimes).  The best news is that when I exercise, it gets better.  So more cardio for Jan - which is hard to do with knee pain - but at least I know the cardio is good for me instead of dangerous.

 

On 8/2/2018 at 10:23 AM, bubbles said:

Still, there is no reason why your friend's doctor couldn't have prescribed decreasing amounts and used a compounding pharmacy - there are loads of them around, and it's not difficult, albeit more expensive.

 

This might be one of the disadvantages of having a PBS (Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme) and MIMS and the TGA, in Australia.

MOST doctors will not prescribe anything not on the PBS.  Compounding just doesn't occur to them.  It's only the expensive doctors in "natural specialities" that will do it.  If you read my little story about my GP and my ortho-doc - I would LOVE to get my GP to manage my thyroid, but:
1.  Natural Dessicated Thyroid is not TGA approved, and 

2.  Compounding pharmacy - her practice just doesn't support it!

 

These are ways that Pharma control the Aussie market....  PBS, MIMS and TGA.  At least our PBS gets to negotiate for fair prices from Pharma, unlike Medicaid in the USA.

 

...and FlyLady?  Apps?  Oh no, thank you.  I won't do anything that requires my phone to send out "internet" or "location" or "data" of any kind.  It's bad enough that it's emitting thermal radiation, and seeking towers all the time while in proximity to my body.  I don't want it interrupting me for every app it wants and all the crap that the apps want.  Oh no, sir, no apps, sir!

 

On 8/3/2018 at 12:24 AM, AbbyElfie said:

I have always been drawn to shamanism. Ever since I participated in 2 ayahuasca ceremonies I've felt a deep connection to it.

 

Aya is one thing, shamanism another.  If you were fortunate enough to participate in a Shamanic Aya ceremony, you are a lucky one.  However - receiving shamanic services from a shaman, and practising shamanism yourself are two different things. 

 

First off - anyone who survives an Aya Ceremony - is a brave soul.  The possibility (especially for "people like us") of confronting madness and Eternity and - what all, coupled with the surrender to strangers - whether in the jungle or whatever - who give you a brew guaranteed to dissolve your mind and ego - well.  That's a Thing.  A big Thing!

 

As for shamanism - you write:

 

On 8/3/2018 at 12:24 AM, AbbyElfie said:

Since being in withdrawal, however, I've experienced a real spiritual crisis - my OCD obsessions have latched on to my spiritual practice in recent years (since I was about 25, I'm 28 now) and convinced me that I'm 'damned' and permanently cut off from god or the divine. It harks back to my long-time fears of hell and damnation, but is so pronounced during withdrawal that I've been convinced of dark presences at times and sensations of being possessed.

 

OCD, really?  That's just dark rumination.  Why are you in a hurry to diagnose the symptoms of withdrawal from a drug?  Obsessive - probably.  Compulsive?  Perhaps.  But A "Disorder?"  I'm sorry, but stop feeding the psychiatric trolls.

 

You are 28 now.  In Shamanic terms, this is a vitally important time in your life.  At 28, there is an event which happens in human development, where all the forms of childhood and adolescence are blown wide open, and you begin to form yourself as a proper adult.  There are Rites of Passage for childhood to adolescence, I believe there should be a Rite of Passage for 28-30.  Well there is one - but we usually live it and experience it the Hard Way.  

There is no Easy Way - but the easiest way is to allow the old to fall away.  This includes all the judgy rumination (I was raised fundamentalist Christian, complete with - a ton of baggage from that - and yes, I still have issues - but - they have no power over me.), and moving from Fear to Love.  I recommend studying St. John of the Cross' "Dark Night of the Soul" who talks about the crisis of dying to your ego - and utilising your "Seven Deadly Sins" (what Carolyn Myss calls "Shadow Passions") and balancing them with the "Seven Graces."  that's one formula.

 

There are others.  My best one is the thread of Gratitude.  I can be in the deepest, darkest, driving of despair (it is my default, to go into Depression and Despair) - but if I can find one thing to be thankful for (my sweater is warm, my teeth are clean, I am breathing) then I can start stringing those Gratitudes together like pearls, and climb my way out again.

 

I am not a counselor, but I welcome folks to my website to learn about shamanism and how it can help personally.  It is not a religion.  It precedes all religion (some say that all religion was developed through shamanic practice of ecstatic trance and Vision), and, when done well, will only enhance whatever your religious beliefs are - or transform them into a form which is More Real to you.  If your beliefs are fear based - then it will be a hard path, as you will need to face those fears and integrate them into Powers.  If your beliefs are about Jesus and Christ, you will find shamanic practices that can enhance and support those beliefs - and - like St. John of the Cross, there are plenty of shamanic courses to take within the Christian faith.  It is a mystical practice, but your Spirit remains your own.


Because I was abused in a cultic fashion (there was no cult, but there was surely a Guru, teachings, and more Gurus), I like the self-control that shamanism offers.  What I experience in my own being is mine, and mine alone.  What you experience in your own being is yours, and yours alone - and yet - they are connected and can synergise together to create something else beautiful.  But I don't need to influence your experience, and you don't need to influence mine.  Knowledge (Gnosis) comes from Direct Experience.  People who have been through withdrawal are excellent candidates, as they understand about surviving distressing states.

 

When I work in my Shamanic Group - I don't encourage people to seek out their traumas, to dive into the Dark Night of the Soul, to pursue the Shamanic Death.  If those Initiations are meant to happen, they will happen without my help.  Instead, I encourage people to seek out Support, and this support helps you to gain the confidence you need to learn and grow.  Support can come in the form of Animal, Plant, and Stone medicines, Ancestors, and more Supernatural type Support - depends on your belief - that may take the form of "light beings," angels, God, Apostles, Saints, Deities.  When you are in direct experience with these - then - it's easier to face the day.  "Ah!  There is a (insert animal presence here) in my heart, I can go on."  "Ah!  I am a perfect DNA form created by the endless pyramid of ancestors - the pinnacle of my own evolution."  "Ah!  I have felt the Presence of Love, it is all worthwhile."

As for possession and dark presences - I'm not a big fan of "possession."  In my experience, nearly all darkness (I'm sure there are exceptions - but I've never met them) comes from within.  Your fear.  Your disgust.  Your insecurity.  Your failures (and your response to them).  I can say the same:  My fear, my disgust, my insecurity, my failures.

 

But these Shadows are Powers.  If you press on them, suppress them, they will sabotage you at every step until you learn what they are teaching.  (C.G. Jung)  If, however, you allow them to happen - and feel them, and experience them - and survive them and integrate them, you will become Whole.  It's an endless process, there is always more to learn and integrate.

 

On 8/3/2018 at 12:24 AM, AbbyElfie said:

It's very difficult to find support from professionals who approach withdrawal in an integrative way, although I know that's what I need.

 

All you can do is "What's Next."  What I'm hearing from you is that ACT might be of huge benefit for you.  Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.  It's becoming more common in Australia and the US - though I haven't a clue about Ireland.  There's a great summary document, here: https://www.matuaraki.org.nz/uploads/files/resource-assets/ACT-acceptance-and-commitment-therapy-the-matrix.pdf   It focuses a lot on using your 5 senses and mindful awareness.  The first book I ever read about it was called "The Happiness Trap" by Dr. Russ Harris.

On the first page of the PDF, it shows the Matrix - which is - am I moving TOWARD something I want?  Or moving AWAY from something I don't want?  It's far more desirable, healthy to move towards something valuable, than it is to spend your life running away from things that are fearful or terrible.  There's also a couple of creatures - Spikey, who cringes in fear at all negative stimulus (guess what, we all have stressors) - or Bouncey, who lets the events happen, and moves on.

 

AND - I learned something new about myself.

 

I always default to Depression.  Sometimes it's even Suicidal Ideation.  It doesn't take much to set me off.  I broke a nail.  That's it.  Just end it all, I'll never have fingernails again and (insert hours of negative rumination here).  OH eff, there's no milk in the fridge.  It's over.  I'm too tired to go to the shops, and (insert time spend being useless and flopping around that could've been spent going to the shops).....Oh dang, I dropped it on the floor, and it rolled under the couch.  "This always happens to me!  Why am I so (insert self deprecation and beating self up here)?"

Always.  It's like a default mode.  All it takes is a "trigger" (I hate that word) and bam, slam, I'm on the floor again.

 

Well - I saw this video yesterday, and here is a little clip from it:
 

 

You can see the whole video here: 

 

Here's the thing - you can't fall off the floor - so why get up?  This taught me exactly why I default to depression and despair.

 

Now - the shamanic question:  what to DO about it?

 

See the sun today!

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AbbyElfie

Hi @JanCarol,

Thanks for your detailed and informative reply! I should have been more specific - I took part in two shamanic ayahuasca ceremonies with a shaman, as well as several soul and power animal retrirvals in the last few years. My own 'practice' as such has only extended to drumming and certain meditations in that sense, I originally focused mainly on Buddhism but have been drawn to various practices. The ayahuasca experiences were invaluable, the first one especially was only intensely difficult for a short period before breaking through to what I thought was heaven at the time. Unfortunately I had also quickly coming off medication just three months before as I had no clue about withdrawal back then. I was in a state of pretty much bliss for about two weeks, then a month later ended up in hospital. Still wouldn't change it for all the world.

 

In terms of the ocd, I use the term more so to describe the meat of my symptoms. I was diagnosed with ocd however when I was 18, obsessive compulsive fears have been recurring since I was young but reached a sudden severe state when I was 16. To the point where I was hospitalized several times thereafter, and was the reason for going on medication to begin with. 

 

Thank you for the links and book recommendations, I hear The Happiness Trap is very good. I'm also a big fan of Carl Jung and have been reading a lot about archetypes and shadow work. 

I think it's great you have identified the depression default mode. Acknowleding that with acceptance and without striving for its opposite is both insightful and admirable. I can relate to the thought pattern you describe. 

 

Fear has driven so much of my life, yet there are times when it's been starkly the opposite - periods of intense bliss and freedom. It's the extreme cognitive dissonance that is difficult to integrate. It's interesting what you say about 28 being an age where your child and adolescent form blows apart - that is exactly what it feels like. I have no identity except one that seems fractured, I literally said to my friend yesterday that it was like a second, worse puberty! So that all makes total sense. And puts my mind at a bit more ease, I am trying to respect the process and interfere as little as possible. 

 

Great to hear your feedback and thoughts, I'd love to check out your website. 

 

Hoping you're having a good weekend :)

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manymoretodays

Thanks JanCarol,

Great video.........I can so relate to the 2nd one.  Just going to slink on out to the neighborhood BBQ despite myself.  I might have overdid a bit with the social outings/visits and things this week too.

 

........and correction.......my cleaning obsessions started with Nardil.......my MAOI...........my journey into multiple drug trials began shortly after my 2 week CT/ withdrawal from that one(I must have been on it for about 5-6 years).   As well of some of my absolute lowest of lows.  This stuff presently is easier in some respects.

........and on we go..........

 

No sunshine here at present.......major wildfires to the South and then blowing in from California as well.  It's nature.  One must respect nature!

.......and a me too........will take a look/see at your shaman explorations blog.

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth baby growth,

mmt

 

Edited by manymoretodays

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FarmGirlWorks

@JanCarol: I watched the second video and am conflicted. YouTube is such a fickle mistress. Yes, all of those behaviors I have now with the exception of attracting better friends into my life. And I know that there has to be a deep transformation to move to some happiness, some sadness instead of the safety of all sadness, all the time. My concern is with WD -- I feel unable to shift my perspective and am sometimes just fighting to stay alive (in an intense state of internal akathisia right now). The other thing is that while self-sabotage was described, there was no "solution" or path offered. I dunno.

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bubbles

 

Quote


On 8/2/2018 at 8:23 AM, bubbles said:

Still, there is no reason why your friend's doctor couldn't have prescribed decreasing amounts and used a compounding pharmacy - there are loads of them around, and it's not difficult, albeit more expensive.


 

Quote

 

This might be one of the disadvantages of having a PBS (Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme) and MIMS and the TGA, in Australia.

MOST doctors will not prescribe anything not on the PBS.  Compounding just doesn't occur to them.  It's only the expensive doctors in "natural specialities" that will do it.  If you read my little story about my GP and my ortho-doc - I would LOVE to get my GP to manage my thyroid, but:
1.  Natural Dessicated Thyroid is not TGA approved, and 

2.  Compounding pharmacy - her practice just doesn't support it! 

 

These are ways that Pharma control the Aussie market....  PBS, MIMS and TGA.  At least our PBS gets to negotiate for fair prices from Pharma, unlike Medicaid in the USA.

 

...and FlyLady?  Apps?  Oh no, thank you.  I won't do anything that requires my phone to send out "internet" or "location" or "data" of any kind.  It's bad enough that it's emitting thermal radiation, and seeking towers all the time while in proximity to my body.  I don't want it interrupting me for every app it wants and all the crap that the apps want.  Oh no, sir, no apps, sir!


 

 

 

Hmmm, my regular GP uses compounding all the time, and was quick to suggest it when we started to do weird things with my SSRI dose. He does have to do a bit of a complicated manual prescription instead of just clicking on the right selection, so there's a learning curve.

 

Apps - I use them. :) I turn off the notifications though. I'm plugged into my phone all day anyway, it might as well work for me.

 

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JanCarol
On 8/15/2018 at 11:44 AM, bubbles said:

Hmmm, my regular GP uses compounding all the time, and was quick to suggest it when we started to do weird things with my SSRI dose.

 

Hey Bubbles - your regular GP is AWESOME, may you always have access to that!

 

It's that learning curve that has my other docs - the corporate pressure of "by the book" is strong - saying, Um, no.  We don't prescribe compounded.

 

You got a good one!  Good for you!

 

but Apps - you go girl.  I don't like my phone being that plugged in, and - I try  not to even be in the same room as it!  I'm not trying to be elusive, it just feels - better that way.  It interrupts me when it's meant to - but when it's meant to is "when I catch it."  Not all the time!

 

There was a lot of writing about "The Economy of Attention."  In it, the new currency is not cash, or time - but attention.  The market struggles to grasp every piece of our attention - and by "dinging" us every so often, gives us the dopamine hit to salivate - and do it again.  By breaking our attention up, it makes us less effective humans, as there is not time for thought or project to go deeply - unless you ignore the interruptions, somehow.  I wish I could remember the writer - went looking for him recently - and found that in the past couple of years a LOT of people are writing about the economy of attention.

 

I spend a lot of effort trying to expand my attention, to deepen my attention, be aware of my attention and learn from my attention.  The intention of attention.

 

So much media - even TV - is designed to "bust that up" and interrupt thought streams.  Yeah, I don't need that so much.

 

I was at a baseball game in Indiana.  I was sitting next to a girlfriend of mine.  She showed me her phone device, and it was showing that a mutual friend of ours lived within 5 blocks of where we were - the baseball stadium (Historic aside:  this was the stadium used in "A League of Her Own," and they've maintained it in movie set condition).  I looked at her phone, and realised that her phone knew where she was, her phone knew where he was.  Her phone wanted to connect the two of them (Facebook in particular, "would you like to message him?")

"Egads," I said, "Girlfriend you are too connected!  I'm not sure I should be sitting next to you."

 

And that's just the tip of the iceberg what these phones can do.  Yeah, I keep my phone on a tight leash.  

 

On 8/12/2018 at 12:06 PM, FarmGirlWorks said:

here has to be a deep transformation to move to some happiness, some sadness instead of the safety of all sadness, all the time. My concern is with WD -- I feel unable to shift my perspective and am sometimes just fighting to stay alive (in an intense state of internal akathisia right now). The other thing is that while self-sabotage was described, there was no "solution" or path offered. I dunno.

 

Hey FGW!

 

"Happiness" is a trap - to go in pursuit of it is to fail, because life comes in windows and waves, and the depth of the despair correlates to the times of bliss.  So - the "safety of sadness" - in the laws of the universe there must be an opposite, and the potential is there for you.  The ecstasy of joy or bliss.  In exact measure to the depths of despair.

 

This is not bipolar.  It's human.  Those who feel most deeply - feel most deeply.  The antidepressants take that away - to smooth out the spikes.  And yes - we may have been really really spikey at times - jumping from intensity to woe, connectedness to isolation.  But I suspect that's human too - to learn to smooth your own spikes instead of relying on a chemical to knock them flat.  And that's something that our current culture isn't teaching - it's kind of scary sometimes.

 

But we can do it - we've seen what the chemicals do, and know we have to do it on our own.  And it is doable.

 

I wrote of my "easy triggers" earlier this week (Triggers, grrr:  I am not a gun!), and here I am again, seeing, learning, growing, writing, working, surviving again.  Still.  Sometimes it's one blink at a time.  Sometimes you get a view of the sky - or a glimpse of the horizon.  And it's just enough.

 

AbbyElfie covered these opposites - 

 

On 8/12/2018 at 7:03 AM, AbbyElfie said:

Fear has driven so much of my life, yet there are times when it's been starkly the opposite - periods of intense bliss and freedom. It's the extreme cognitive dissonance that is difficult to integrate.

 

I reckon it's the flexing of opposites that makes us learn and grow.

 

It's true of muscles.  In order to use the biceps you must use triceps.  

 

In tai chi, we say, "in order to go right, you must first go left."  

 

In order to jump, we must squat down.

 

In order to fly, a bird must jump.

 

I reckon the deeper the squat, the higher the flight (but it might depend on what kind of wings you have).

 

You can do this!

 

 

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bubbles
11 hours ago, JanCarol said:

Hey Bubbles - your regular GP is AWESOME, may you always have access to that! 

 

It's that learning curve that has my other docs - the corporate pressure of "by the book" is strong - saying, Um, no.  We don't prescribe compounded.

 

You got a good one!  Good for you! 

 

I wonder if it is something about my area. Lots of compounding pharmacies nearby? I can think of three immediately in a reasonable distance and likely there are more.

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JanCarol

It's been a long time since I've written, it's been an absolute impossibility to do so.

 

I went away for a weekend seminar to become a Tai Chi Instructor.  The instruction was easy, as I practice Tai Chi regularly, and knew the Tai Chi For Health form that I am responsible for.  It was delightful to meet these other ladies - but stressful, too - they were mostly "normal."  My own challenges are invisible.

 

I was in that hall for 8 hours a day, 2 days in a row.  I had to eat when they ate, sleep when they slept, socialise when they socialised.  I had to listen carefully, which was stressful, since i am hearing impaired and live in a country where the vowels sound mangled to me.  The weekend was hard on me, and I ended it with a UTI.  That took me out of commission for a week afterwards.

 

But I have also had to take that teaching and try and establish my own class.  I'm fortunate that I have a yoga studio I can work out of, and Sensei is supportive at karate.  So far I have one student, 100 brochures.  Hubby did a photo shoot, and a dear friend made a digital drawing of my best pose.

41300431_224923325049622_386260724484774

 (I made a lot of funny faces that didn't look good on camera, I'm thrilled to have a real artist "fix me up" with this!)

 

In other news, I did another taper of Phenibut to 100 mg, on 5-Sept.  PVC's still an issue, even though the cardiologist has cleared me from harassment for 2 years (hooray!)  He says that cardiovascular exercise decreases the PVCs, but with my pain and injuries, that is difficult to achieve.  I still do yoga, karate, tai chi and walking.  So there is some cardiovascular in there - but I haven't had the time/ability to get to the gym for months now.  I do feel better when I can get to the gym at least 2x a month in between other activities, but with travel, seminars, sickness, and starting my own tai chi class - there's really no space for it in my limited energy field.

 

Here's an example of how erratic my heart is.  This is a record of my heart "resonance" meditation, from HeartMath.  As you see, some days are awesome (mostly green) but most days are - all over the place:

EmWaveSept2018.jpg

 

Sometimes I can feel my heart pounding and wibble-wobbling away, and yet I'm in the green.  The red seems to come when I'm "thinking thinking" or "planning planning" (see, I still do mindfulness!)

 

I think I could probably drop the Phenibut away with minimal effects, but it pays to be careful.  After the 3 days of travel for the tai chi seminar, I messed up my supplement trays upon return, and set a morning tray in my evening spot.  One night away I was too tired to take night supplements, I just went straight to bed.  Then, upon returning home, I made this mistake, and ended up having morning supplements 2x a day.  This meant - no magnesium (or Phenibut) for 5 days before I caught it, and wondered why I wasn't sleeping at night, and why I had so much pain.

 

Ah.  The magnesium, it does good things.  And the Phenibut is probably still a factor, too - as I was grumpy, crabby, out of sorts during those 5 days.  I said to hubby, "I just don't feel right.  I know it will pass, but man!  I am so grumpy!"  Sure enough - it was probably the Phenibut.  So - yes, let's taper slowly, shall we?

 

And - it's so easy to make mistakes, and mistakes have their prices.  For those of you who think that a little faster taper might help, or maybe you want to CT something - remember that if tiny changes (mistakes) can take away a week of my life - big changes can mess with you for months!

I'm recovered now, from the UTI, and from the supplement errors, and from the disruption in my schedule.  It doesn't take much, though, to knock me off my tuffet!

 

SO - in other news, I promised @powerback that I would report on my microbiome.

I got the report back - no parasites (what a surprise!  I thought that they always found parasites!) - my main problem is a deficiency in e. coli!  Most people have too much, well, I don't have enough.

 

From the report (which I will type, paraphrased, rather than photocopy due to compromising information):  

 

E. coli coliform - deficient - thrives in low body temps (like hypothyroidism), exposure to anti-fever or analgesia, especially paracetamol, can decrease E. coli count.  Fructo-oligosaccharide (FOS*) can also decrease them. 

 

* I'm still learning what FOS are, and how I get them in my diet.  Anyone who is smarter than me is welcome to chime in!

 

Deficient E.coli will make it hard to synthesise essential amino acids (especially tryptophan, phenylananine & tyrosine), vitamins (especially folic acid and K2), and Coenzymes.  Metabolism requires these factors.  Depletion of tyrosine and phenylalanine can cause depression and affect decision making.  

 

(My doctor looked at my supplement list - she snorted about it the last time she looked at it, and now it makes sense to her.  I am supplementing exactly these things that I am having trouble metabolising - though I do not supplement these particular aminos - yet.  She is no longer snorting at me, and seems to be treating me now, as a partner in my health, whew!  No more bullying, thanks!)

 

Overgrowths:  Streptococcus/Enterococcus - can lead to lactic acid buildup, lower the colonic pH, decrease production of volatile fatty acids.  Can lead to intestinal permeability (called "leaky gut" (report says this requires further study).  High lactic acid bacteria positively correlate with nervousness, memory loss, forgetfulness, and sleep patterns. High lactic acid can contribute to muscle pain.  High lactic acid can affect production of primary bile acids, and contribute to fat malabsorption (I have had bouts of white poo).

 

Yeasts (like candida) were undetectable.  (YAY!)

 

So I had handed the doctor a list of my symptoms - and most of these symptoms were described by my gut biome.  Maybe when this is balanced, maybe, just maybe, the tinnitus will be better, too?

 

She gave me a 2 month protocol, which was delayed when I got a UTI and had to get antibiotics (again).  I started the protocol 5 days ago - oregano oil, things to help my gut "shed" bacteria, and when I have been through 2 weeks of cleansing, I will start building up again.  $400 worth of supplements! 

 

I would normally arrange the supplements myself, but that is a special challenge here in the Land Downunder, so I submitted to her exact protocol. (where does one buy E.Coli probiotic?  I got it from Compounding Chemist!)  It is the first time my gut biome has been directly addressed, and I'm going to give this protocol a fair shake.

 

So far, no "detox symptoms" - no raging gut, no excess pain, maybe a bit more headache-y.  I love the taste of the oregano oil - spicy!  I actually crave it (though after 2 weeks, I might get tired of it).  She said that my main symptom might be fatigue (oh, but I'm used to that!).

 

I'll give it a go, and report back here.  It's a new science, this "gut biome" stuff.  I understand they do poo transplants in the USA, they do them here, too - but I think they will try this first - I think they save the poo transplants for the really extreme cases.  I'm only the walking wounded.

 

A long report - but a good one.  I'm now a tai chi teacher, the phenibut taper is going well, the cardiologist gave me a release for 2 years, and the functional medicine doctor is addressing my gut biome.  

 

And I saw the sun today!

 

 

 

 

Edited by JanCarol

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Shep
20 hours ago, JanCarol said:

A long report - but a good one.  I'm now a tai chi teacher, the phenibut taper is going well, the cardiologist gave me a release for 2 years, and the functional medicine doctor is addressing my gut biome.  

 

And I saw the sun today!

 

Excellent update, JC! So glad things are going so well.

 

Loved the pic! 

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JanCarol

More of the Story . . .   (continued from: here)

 

So in 1998, after meeting my Birth Family, I decided yes, my friend was right.  I was bipolar. 

 

I went back to the counselor that helped me survive my "mania" in 1995, and sought psychiatric help.  Even my Zen-friend said, "Maybe you need professional help?" because she was beginning to get frustrated with me.

 

Looking back, I was probably depleted from renovating and moving into the house, and dangerously dissociated from the Yogi's invasion of my soul.

In 1997, I discovered that Yes was touring again.   (I knew about the reunion at San Luis Obispo in 1995, but had just left my husband, and was struggling to make a crust.  A trip to California - even though all my online buds were going - was out of reach)

 

I had been on a fan BB (Bulletin Board in ASCII) called "Notes from the Edge" since 1990, as I was working for the music department at the University, and with their computers I could access it, download and print it, and read it at home.  It kept me up to date on all of the Yes news, and introduced me to people who are still my friends.

 

When the internet went WSIWYG and graphic, then there were new forums, new conversations.  There were instant messengers and ways to get to know people.

 

I fell in love with a YesFan from England.  That made it possible for me to extract myself from the Yogi. 

 

I still bought into the "bipolar" thing.  In fact, if you didn't accept that I was "bipolar," you couldn't be my friend.  I had a broken brain, I was partially disabled (only able to work 20 hours in a good week) and struggling, and if you blamed it on anything I was doing - diet, lack of exercise, SAD (yes, I did do worse in winter), rumination, bad attitude - I would dis you.  You couldn't be my friend.  That's how thoroughly I bought into it.

 

In 1998, Yes toured with Open Your Eyes and I saw 3 shows, and made a bunch of friends.  In 1999, they toured with the Ladder - and there were these guys from Australia.  I had a block of good seats in Cincinnati, that I maxed out a credit card to get - so that I could sit with all my mates in good seats in the Taft Theatre.  The Aussies bought 3.  I had planned to see 5-6 shows on this tour, because I could work in between shows, had a decent car and could stay cheaply.  Yes fans are like Dead Fans - with better living conditions.  In Milwaukee, I met the Aussies, and delivered the Cincinnati tickets.  In Chicago, we stood in a cold line for "first come first serve" seating, and they had no idea what cold was.  In Detroit, the people I was with were drunken.  I had been hoping for a ride to the venue, but the people I'd planned to go with were drinking a Grateful Dead liqueur called "Jerry's Blood" and I didn't want to get into a vehicle with them.  So I called the Aussies (and a Scot) and caught a ride with them.  I still thought of them as "the Aussies," and was sad when they went back home, without thinking much about it.

 

The guy from England turned out to be a player, and so that ended, but - in the world of Yes, I had found a haven that had 10 guys for every girl, and I could take my pick.  At least we liked the same music, and many of us had that connection to Extreme States, Psychedelics, and Spirituality as expressed in the Music of Yes.  Or maybe I didn't want any relationship at all - I was working, almost maintaining my house (with a roommate), faithfully taking my drugs, and "doing okay."

About those drugs - I remember getting into a fight with a nurse practitioner.  I was a poverty patient, getting my mental "health" on charity from the hospital, which was still privately owned (since has corporatized).  The nurse practitioner was an idiot.  She wanted to keep upping my dose of Depakote, but I found that the Depakote made it harder for me to work and be productive.  When I complained, she said, "You are getting agitated, I think you need more, not less."  

I had a good therapist on my side, and she was able to recommend that I get 10 minutes a month with a real psychiatrist who helped me find a drug solution that was less intrusive.  By then I was on Effexor and Mirtazapine.....

 

But sometime before I quit the Depakote, I took $$$$ from Eli Lilly to test a "new bipolar drug" which turned out to be olanzapine.  I took my Effexor and Depakote as prescribed (sorry, I am skipping around a bit), and they measured liver and other blood functions.  Then at the end of the 6 weeks, they did a 72 hour trial of olanzapine or placebo to test how it affected my liver.  I got the placebo (thank God!).  And I took my check and paid some debts.  And bought some concert tickets, too.

 

So in 2000, Yes announced a Masterworks Tour, where they would be playing only long, symphonic pieces.  One of the Aussies said he was coming, and I put my hand up to host.  At the time, I was dating a YesFan from Michigan, but apart from the Detroit concert, I would host the Aussie.  

 

He was coming for just 4 shows (a very short tour, when you've travelled 14,000 miles), and I was hosting him for 3 of them, driving him around, sharing motels when needed.  The shows were great - until we got to Cincinnati.  That concert was cancelled, Jon Anderson (lead singer) was sick.  Cincinnati was cancelled, and the following night, Indianapolis was cancelled too.  This man from Australia had come all this way for - only 2 shows, and - what could I do, but offer to entertain him?  We had our first real date the night of the Cincy show, where we walked the riverfront and ate Skyline Chili, looking at gardens and the Roebling Bridge (a miniature prototype of the Brooklyn Bridge).  We talked all night.  We fell in love.  We lay under the Newport Kentucky Peace Bell when it sounded at noon, and headed to Indianapolis (which was also cancelled).

 

Failing that, I took him to my favourite Indiana forests and hills, introduced him to my friends and community.  He proposed to me.  He had been a bachelor for 45 years, had never proposed to anyone, but he proposed to me.  He had already received the "bipolar" talk - it was essential for us to travel together that he would accept and expect my "bipolarness."  He had met my Lil Sis, who had a diagnosis of "Borderline Schizoaffective Disorder" and he dealt with her anxieties very well.  I couldn't say yes (I had that guy in Michigan, remember?), my life was a mess - I was in debt, I had tax issues, my house was in no condition to sell or rent.  I just couldn't do it.  I told him I loved him, and I cut off a large braid of my waist-length hair.  I told him by the time that hair had grown back, I would have an answer for him - but please, hold the braid, and think of me, and let's work towards this.

Romantic, eh?  Well it was!  It was a surprising, whirlwind romance.  I had given up ever being mated - after the Yogi, everything else was so pale.  I was happy in my community, my town, my friends.  I wasn't expecting this.  He was fervent and devoted, organised and capable.  He was a renaissance man - able to build, create with his hands, loved to solve problems with his mind and computers - and a musical genius.  I had never met a man like him.  

So - when the Towers fell on 9/11, and I saw America go mad, and the Patriot Act passed, and blood in the eyes of my fellow Americans, I found it was possible to leave my home and community, and I filed for visa.

I moved to Australia in August of 2002, and haven't looked back.  BUT - the Australian Medical System had a very different protocol for my "bipolar disorder...."

to be continued (sorry this was so rambling)

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