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JanCarol - undiagnosed! Off all "bipolar" drugs!

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Thanks Andy!  Yes, I'm quite thrilled that the YouTube rabbit hole brought me to his channel!  I'm really happy with the brush technique and crave it.


I think I'll go do it now!


Sun, today for me, how about you?


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Hi JanCarol, 


Thanks for your message the other day. 


Ive just read a bit of your thread. You’ve done really well to be a success story, a great inspiration to all. 


In your last post you were talking about acupuncture. I want to go back to the acupuncturist too. I want to see if my acupuncturist  can do the NADA protocol for me. 


A friend of mine used to practice it on people who were going through drug n alcohol rehabilitation. I wasn’t on any meds at the time and I didn’t know anything about withdrawals but I went n had it done as it was so relaxing, good for sleep.


In one of your posts you were a bit stressed about housework. Have u ever checked out FlyLady on the Internet? She’s really good, she gets you to do little things every day so u no longer have to spring clean. I haven’t been following her lately but I want to ge back into that too. 


I have a lot of little things i want to incorporate back into my life.


You’re a great writer by the way. 


Have a happy day☀️☀️☀️



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Hey @Carmie- thanks for stopping by.  The NADA protocol is a detox protocol, and we don't recommend detox while in withdrawal.  It might be fine for addiction recovery, but might be too stimulating for withdrawal.  We've got articles about that here - generally acupuncture, we want soothing, not stimulating treatments.  (much to the chagrin of many acupuncturists!):  acupuncture


Thanks for the FlyLady tip.  I suspect I'm too far gone for "a little each day" when each day is spent keeping my head above water - there really isn't much left over for "extra projects."  So the backlog - it will have to wait until the miracle of "more energy" (whatever that is) comes to roost in my body.


I'm here to report - Phenibut taper.  (I will update previous post on this, as well)


PVC's are back.  The ear sensor on my HeartMath monitor no longer works.  HeartMath cautions that people with PVC's might not be able to get the HeartMath monitor to work.  And sure enough, my heart is too wobbly for the ear sensor to pick it up.  I can still use the thumb sensor, though.  Sometimes I can actually feel the two parts of my heart lub-dub-dubbing in different time signatures.


The plus side to tapering Phenibut, is that my dreams - and my memory of them - is returning.  I now have some subconscious imagery and relationships to chew on during the day.  These dreams are nourishment to me - when I have something like this to wrap my head around and contemplate the different ways they come together - it helps my process immensely.


I'm getting over strep throat - it's almost made me sleep like a normal person (only more so - hypersomnia, but when you're sick, that's actually good.).



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Thanks JanCarol, 


I knew the liver point was detoxing but I was going to ask him to omit that one. 


I checked out the link you gave me but I’ll have to do more research to see which acupuncture points will be best. I went to an acupuncturist for the majority of last year. I’m hoping to go again soon. He’s really nice n will do pretty much anything I ask. He helped a lot with my low blood pressure at one stage. 


Hope all goes well with your tapering. I’ve never heard of Phenibut so I checked it out. Boy, there are so many evil meds on the market. 


Glad you’re keeping your head above water.


Sending hugs🤗


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On 4/17/2018 at 10:17 PM, JanCarol said:

My brother calls us Religious POW survivors.

@JanCarol, I was looking up "spiritual emergence" and came across some of your posts from April as I watched a film tonight about spiritual emergence and some of it seemed to correlate with the WD experience. However! Kept reading your posts and this particular one resonated as I was adopted and raised by a hyper-religious mother. I love the phrase "religious POW survivors" as that is definitely what my brother and I are too.  And I had tendonitis for several months instead of weeks as well. 🙂


Much of what you say are things I've recently thought about and this esp. is knocking around my skull: are these neuro emotions or my native state? I am unsure... although the depth of depression I feel now seems more than it ever was. But it could also be the age I am at (perimenopausal) or that I have no work and spend too much time alone. I want to come out the other side of this withdrawal with a deeper relationship to spirituality but it may be all the other activities I do to support that and not WD. I dunno. Thanks for these posts whatever the case.

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Hey FarmGirlWorks - thanks for stopping by!


1 hour ago, FarmGirlWorks said:

I want to come out the other side of this withdrawal with a deeper relationship to spirituality but it may be all the other activities I do to support that and not WD. I dunno. Thanks for these posts whatever the case.


Yeah, withdrawal is a lot like "Shamanic Death."  All the unnecessary stuff is taken away from you, your ego is reduced to ash, and it's up to you to build what is next.  You get all of the "doing" taken away, and are left with "being," and that's often not a very comfortable place.


Looking into Spiritual Awakening, Spiritual Emergence is an excellent direction to take.  It is hard being alone, and - I have to say that the Spiritual Journey I've been on has not really given me fellowship.  I have y'all, here on SA, who understand - and I'm trying to cultivate Community (but they don't understand the Withdrawal and post-drug side of things).


You've been off about a year - this is about when your "native state" starts coming through.  The good things come through too - the things that got left behind when you were drugged.  We were younger then, and didn't think that a feather falling out of a tree was a special moment - but now, oh my!  Look!  A feather fell out of the tree, just for me....  so your sensitivity to Beauty is increased as well as your sensitivity to "Ugh and Ick."  Noise, clutter, Drama - you will no longer have tolerance for the things that get in the way of your Spirit.


So from my perspective - cultivating your Spiritual self is an excellent (maybe the best) way to heal from withdrawal.  I just wrote about Practice, here, and I see you have a regular Practice to help cultivate your Dance with your own Soul.  Sometimes it feels pointless - it's always more fun when it's shared, but really - only you can dance with your own Soul.  I really don't have any suggestions, other than to accept the miracle that is now you.  You survived it!  

This caused me to want to Give Back.  So I offer Shamanism to the community - not as a teacher, but as a navigator, opening the conditions for folks to Experience their Inner Wisdom for themselves.  As they say in Shamanic circles, "Holding the Space" for them.  


It sounds like you are doing great - keep Dancing!


And I hope you see the Sun today!

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I look forward to finding out what my native state is. Even though I have 17 years in the program part of them were on psychiatric medication. Although when I first got clean and sober I was only on a little bit of Clonopin, really for about eight or nine years before the whole big mess of poly drugging started.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/12/2018 at 4:17 PM, Carmie said:

I’ve never heard of Phenibut so I checked it out. Boy, there are so many evil meds on the market. 


Yeah, except this was a gentler way to calm the clutching badger in my heart than blood pressure drugs or a benzo.  And it's been taken away.  (naturally Phenibut is awful as a recreational drug, but my dose was 1/5-1/10th of what they take for a "high")


If I can't calm this thing, they will talk about stronger drugs, or ablation or surgical fixes, and after my "luck" with surgeries, I hate the idea of going under the knife ever again.  It is tempting to just get a bunch while I am in the USA and hope I can smuggle it in past Customs - but - bringing a banned drug to Australia is a sure fired way to get on TV, and not in a good way.


I have breathing, yoga - and I noticed about 5 years ago that - this thing was stronger than any breathing practice or yoga technique I can do.  It's stronger than cardio fitness will help with.  But when I described that to the docs, they just shrugged, not realising that my 42 years of yoga practice is um, usually amazing, and that I'm used to being able to control my breathing and heart rate at will.  And when that doesn't work - it is somewhat alarming.


On 6/14/2018 at 9:12 AM, FarmGirlWorks said:

was struck over and over by it is a "life's work" and just isn't over when you complete the 12 steps or whatever...


OH YEAH FGW - this is what i mean when I say (frequently) that life comes in windows and waves.  The withdrawal is done and dusted - but - still - I have relationships, life issues, health issues.  Every day that I'm not fighting, is a day I'm losing ground.


Yes, I get jealous when I see other people who seem so effortless in their ability to get the kids from school, work a full time job - but I also see a lot of people who are in relationships and jobs that are killing them - and they might even know it, but believe that this killing job or toxic relationship "is the right thing to do" or can't see a way out of it - and so - I watch them die.  I will never accept a killing job or toxic relationship again.  I don't have time or energy for it.  So - maybe I'm not jealous, because these people may not be as effortless as it looks from the outside.


We all live with a society that is killing itself and the planet at breakneck speed.  To be sensitive and "not fit in," as I see it, is a good quality to have in times like these.  And Sandra Ingerman was talking about dreaming into the future - to imagine what our descendants will be like, how will they heal from illness or injury?  She was asked, "isn't this just fantasy - fluffy unicorns and rainbows and science fiction?"  And Sandra said something about - what is the harm in dreaming a better future?  Maybe it will help to imagine this world as a better place?  This goes along with what I have read in John Perkins' book, "The World is As You Dream It"


On 6/14/2018 at 9:12 AM, FarmGirlWorks said:

It's for nothing if I just to get back to my pre-drug state which was not working most of the time.


Exactly!  I don't like who she was! (me, not you, I didn't know you then!)  I was a selfish, self-centered, greedy, grabbing, manipulative, self-righteous (insert noun here).  

Now that I am - as you say:

On 6/14/2018 at 9:12 AM, FarmGirlWorks said:

reduced me. I was going to say to "nothing" but there could be lots more that could be taken away. (Sudden fear there).


Nothing is not a bad thing.  Yes, it could be worse, more could be removed.  The removal will continue until you get it.  I'm still losing things (I think).  I have an image of Self that is still unkind, still self-destructive - there is always more to be learned.  I cling to these last threads of Self, as if that's all I have - but from all that I've learned, I know (intellectually, not emotionally or experientially) that letting go of that Self-ish-ness will be a great gift to myself and to others.  But I still cling to it, and it's the centre of my "problems" right now.  The weird thing is - that I can see that,(just like my friends who can see their killing jobs and toxic relationships) but there's still , stubbornness, a holding on to let go of.


On 6/14/2018 at 9:12 AM, FarmGirlWorks said:

Frankly, it is not the creativity (that will come back, I am sure) but the discipline and follow-thru that needs to be cultivated...


Oh yeah.  I'm afraid my disciplines are still very simple.  A little yoga, a little meditation. Dancing with my Soul in my body - that's a quote from a great yoga teacher (to the stars!) Shiva Rea.  She says that Practice is like Dancing with your Soul.  I say that only you can do it - and sometimes it's like wrestling with your soul.  Yesterday I HAD to go to the gym.  Why did I perceive it like that?  I didn't have to traipse through war-torn streets, there was fresh clean water at the drinking fountain, I was not harassed or confronted in any way (people were friendly), I had my own good music to listen to.  But why is it a struggle to go to the gym?  Why is this part of my Dance with my Soul - less than pleasurable?


It turns out - it was thinking about going to the gym that was less than pleasurable, the gym itself was fine, and it was good to move my body, and the magnesium bath afterwards was heavenly.  So why do I spiral myself up like that, and think that the gym is not pleasurable?

The same thing applies to "I have to cook this meal," or "I have to make some juice," or even "I have to write in my journal."      :P


So - it's not just the discipline - one foot in front of the other, one step at a time - but also the attitude towards that Practice.


On 6/14/2018 at 5:07 PM, manymoretodays said:

Thank you JanCarol for the space


I'm happy for this discussion to continue - my focus is about Spiritual Awakening and Emergence, surviving extreme states & emotions - and - striving to be the Best Human Being I can create.


I'm not a 12 Stepper (though I have some near & dear to me), but I'm happy for this to take place as long as folks are here talking about it (hunh, as soon as I say that, the well will dry up, but okay!)


On 6/14/2018 at 9:11 PM, DMV64 said:

I look forward to finding out what my native state is.


Hey D - it's nothing to hurry towards.  Because really - we never actually get back to our native state.


Think of is as a train wreck or a war.  We can get out of it, and survive - and even thrive! - but are we ever really the same again?  


In my case - I don't want to be the same again (and I think FGW was expressing a similar feeling) - but I do want to address the issues as they come up, and try to approach my Practice, my relationships and my Life in such a way as to honour this gift I've been given. 

My pre-drug state - I didn't see life as a gift.  Now - I do.  It's this attitude that keeps me going, keeps me trying, keeps me going to the gym (and journalling) even when I don't understand it all.  I don't need to.  I just need gratitude for what I've been given.

Edited by JanCarol

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Posted (edited)

I found a spot in "Finding Meaning" that we could resurrect..........and it hasn't been posted on since August of 2014.   


Soooo.......with that being said I'll go ahead and move some of these more recent posts specific to AA..........if you are looking for them.


I know JC has said she doesn't mind the hijack/not hijack as it has to do with spiritual awakenings and further development of such........ maybe we can do some cross posting or something.  I know of some other members who have more to say as well as far as benefits to non benefits of traditional AA.........when I run across something,  I will try and copy it over to the new/old/resurrected thread above.


I just use a lot of discernment with AA at this point.  It HAS been a nice touchpoint for me........ to finding some other means of spiritual awakenings that need not be done in solitude.  I do a fair amount in solitude as well.


It has helped me a lot with W/D.  It did take awhile to find those who were good fits and understood...... a least even a little bit about my W/D.  


And I just Love my new medal/amulet with not only Bill yet Bob too on the face.  My trusty bill/bob head pocket gizmo guide to the Universe and Meaning.  B) 


Sunday, sunday.........


Love, peace, healing/inrecovery, and growth,


Edited by manymoretodays

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What an inspiring post!
I love how you wrote that only you are in charge of your moods.
I wish I could do what you do.
After about 30 years of being on various low dose SSRIs or SSNRIs I was diagnosed with bipolar 2. My gut instinct is that what started as depression/anxiety flipped due to the meds.
I wish I could do what you did, but for now I am feeling well on Lamictal. But your post gives me hope that maybe someday I will be also able to take control of this myself without meds. But I'm told once you're bipolar you need meds for life. It's all rather confusing.

I'm curious what type of magnesium and how many milligrams you take.

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Thanks MMT - that last post really belonged on a 12 step thread, and I really appreciated FarmWorksGirl's response!


FWG - "Badger" is truly an American thing - I may live in Australia, but I'm a born "Yank" (Aussies call every American a "Yank" whether they are Northern or Southern or Western.  AND for slang, like Kristine so deftly used, as rhyming slang, they call us "Sepo" for "Septic Tank" because it rhymes with Yank.  That's how twisted Aussie slang is!)


I have a special relationship with Badger, and right now, Badger and my heart have been having a long discussion.  You'd probably have to read my old thread to find it.


On 6/19/2018 at 10:54 PM, Serenity23 said:

But I'm told once you're bipolar you need meds for life. It's all rather confusing.


Yeah, I was told that too.  I was told that by my best friend - who was a doctor!  It took me a few years to believe her, but when I couldn't get better, I thought - it must be true.


You can do what I do.  Only you can control your moods.  All the drugs do is dampen down the spikes.  When they do that, they damp down the spikes of pleasure, too.  If your "Bipolar" was induced by drugs, then it is not really "Bipolar," it is drug induced symptoms.  90% of people diagnosed as "bipolar" got there this way.  There are a few (very few, half of 1%) who have traditional bipolar, the 20-30% of America that are on mood affecting drugs are not that.  Now it seems like everybody and their dog is bipolar.  And "bipolar II" (that's what I "was" too), is a junk diagnosis = diag-nonsense to get insurance and classify someone as more dangerous, more sick, more "broken brain" more diseased than they really are. 


Have you read Robert Whitaker's "Anatomy of an Epidemic?"  In it, he describes how - depression used to be a once-in-a-lifetime thing.  Everybody had it - but it cleared up and went away.  Whitaker makes the case that since we started drugging depression, it has become chronic.  Even bipolar and schizophrenia people used to get better and go back to work.  Now with the drugs - not so much.


You cannot tell how much someone is suffering when they are on mood disabling and psych disrupting drugs.  That's not the real you.  The real you lies beneath the drugs, which are a layer, like a blanket of cotton wool, to wrap you up and "keep you safe" from the scary emotions.  But emotions never killed anybody (it's the reactions that are dangerous).  When you learn to respond instead of react - you get better.  Your life gets easier.  You find yourself not attracted to the dramas and the spikes.


I know I used to love the dramas and the spikes.  I wanted my life to be better than anything I saw on TV or in the movies.  I came close (in a bad way), but when I let go of that - the need to feel something whether good or bad - the need to make things happen so that I could feel.  The excitement of driving things to a frantic and desperate level.  The desire to control it all, laughing maniacally - "I will prevail!!!"  Yeah, pretty dramatic.


Then there's the deep, unrelenting fatigue and depression.  That's why I got the "Bipolar II" diagnosis.  Years where I could barely rise and take care of myself, my job, my house.  Maybe even decades, because I danced on that line of functionality for decades.  I could work a few years, then crash, then marriage went bad, deeper crash.  Then freedom and hard work for a few more years - and then crash.  I still struggle with functionality, and I'm fortunate to be supported by my husband.   But - depression is your body telling you something.  


It may be that your depression is really fatigue - your body is so tired from being artificially "antidepressed" - many people suffer a form of adrenal fatigue, or end up diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue or Fibromyalgia.  It may be that your life weighs down on you so heavily that it is Pressing upon you, making you DePressed.  I didn't understand how much of my marriage was DePression until it was over.  I still marvel at how bad it got, and how much damage was inflicted by our unhappiness, and continued to learn about "what happened" in that situation 20 years on.


Many of the extreme emotions are reactions to the environment.  Trauma, bullying, pressure, stress.  The rest of the extreme emotions are there because you feed them.  There is pleasure in those extremes.  So I figured - would I rather be numbed completely - or would I rather level out those spikes myself?  You can do it, and it's not easy work, but it is oh-so-rewarding.


The other thing I decided was - I was unhappy and miserable on the drugs.  I reckoned I had 30 years experience at being unhappy and miserable, and would do fine to be unhappy and miserable without the drugs.  But what happened was different - as I came off the drugs, I came alive and found things about myself that had been dead and buried on the drugs.  I've engaged with myself, and I'm learning to like her!  (that, too, is hard work!)


Your story sounds very much like a drug induced "bipolar."  That's not really bipolar. That's a drug induced condition (which the DSM has a category for, but for some reason practitioners don't like to use it).   You don't need "drugs for life."   You can do it - but it is not a cake walk.  If it's something you want, commit to it, do it oh-so-slowly and oh-so-carefully and oh-so-gently, and you will walk away from psychiatrists forever.


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