RM123: in need of help

[RM123]

Hi all, I’m so grateful for websites like these. 
 

I was on Mirtazapine for over a year at 15mg/day for sleep. Can’t remember exactly how long. I’m so stupid I stopped cold turkey. I just didn’t want to be on them anymore.  I did not keep record of timeline but I believe after 8-12 or more weeks of stopping all of a sudden I couldn’t sleep. However, I’ve been going through a lot of relationship issues that has caused me emotional pain and anxiety which I though it was that until I researched withdrawal. I panicked and took a dose of 7.5mg and 15mg here and there. It wasn’t working like it used to so I decided to go on 7.5mg everyday for last two weeks. Panicked and up it to 15mg for a few days. Now back to 7.5mg. I’m so scared. I can’t sleep. Some night I can’t sleep at all. In the last week I sleep for four hrs and automatically always up same time every night (4hrs of sleep). I don’t know what to do. I jus want to come off again and deal with the insomnia. No other symptoms except for what I’m feeling with my personal issues.  I shouldn’t of come back on and just went with insomnia. Should I just stop it all together again since I cannot sleep anyway? 

[RM123]

I got so caught up with the mirtzapine (I think I was on it for a year or more) and the insomnia withdrawal (that’s what I read about wd on it) I did not think to mention I also came off fluoxetine a few weeks before Mirt cold turkey (I couldn’t find Info of insomnia effects on this from wd) I was on it fluoxetine no issues for 10years. 60-40-20-10 mg taper over the years (not a 10%). I really can’t remember. I was on 10mg for a good year I believe. I had some brain zaps for the first week or so but that went away. 
 

Again my insomnia started happening after 8-12 weeks coming off mirt so that would be 14 weeks coming off fluoxetine. 
 

I really have screwed up and I made such a big mistake. Right now the only issue I’m having is insomnia. I feel like an idiot posting on here about this. I’m so ashamed. 

[Gridley]

Welcome to SA, RM23.

 

There is no need to be ashamed or kick yourself.  All of us on this forum have made mistakes, often big ones, and all will recover from them.  The important thing is that you are here now, in the right hands.

 

You've gone through a lot of dose changes, and this has sensitized Your system, and the cold turkey of 15mg, along with the previous cold turkey of Fluoxetine,  has put you in withdrawal. You will heal but it will take some time for your system to stabilize.  

 

What is withdrawal syndrome.

 

Glenmullen’s withdrawal symptom list.

 

When we take medications, the CNS (central nervous system) responds by making changes over the months and years we take the drug(s). When the medication is discontinued, the CNS has to undo all the changes it made. Rebuilding the neurotransmitter production and reactivating the receptor and transporter cells takes time -- during that rebuilding process symptoms occur.  

 

You mentioning going off the Mirtazapine, and are happy to help with that.  However, it is very important that you not cold turkey and that you taper slowly.  We recommend tapering by no more than 10% of your current dose every four weeks.  Some have to go more slowly.

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

This link is specifically about tapering Mirtazapine and includes information on how to obtain the small, nonstandard doses you'll need for your 10% taper.

 

Tips for tapering off Remeron (mirtazapine)

 

But before you begin tour 10% taper you need to stabilize and let your system catch up with all the changes you've gone through.  I suggest you hold where you are at 7.5mg every day taken around the same time.  At the end of one month let's evaluate how you're doing and feeling.  It may take a it longer for you to stabilize.  Please keep us updated and do not hesitate to ask questions here on your thread.

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

Insomnia is one of the most common withdrawal symptoms.  Here are some links that might help you with your insomnia.

 

Tips to help sleep - so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Relaxation exercises, guided meditations, calming videos, sleep hypnosis

 

Trick and tips to fall asleep faster

 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2017/02/16/tips-tricks-fall-asleep-faster.aspx?utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20170216Z1&et_cid=DM133787&et_rid=1889748952

 

This link contains helpful information, including insomnia and also non-drug coping skills.  

 

Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

 

Some members have found Melatonin helpful with insomnia.   

 

Melatonin for sleep   

 

It's best to start at a very low dosage, such as .25mg, and gradually increase if needed to the lowest effective dose.

 

This is your Introduction thread, where you can ask questions, post updates and connect with other members.  We're glad you found your way here. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RM123]

@Gridley thanks so much for your reply. I’m so glad I found SA. I’ve been reading these forums for the last two days literally non stop that I haven’t been able to focus on anything else I need to do. I’m really worried. 
 

Thanks for all the info. I have come across this your info during my reading here. 
 

I don’t know what to do. I have not went back on  fluoxetine but I went back on mirt as I got really scared and felt like that was the culprit to my insomnia. I also thought it was my relationship issues which have really broken me. I don’t want to go back on fluoxetine
 

I feel like i went backwards coming back on mirt and don’t know if I reinstated too late, and too much (7.5mg) that I should just come off again cold turkey as it only been 1-2 weeks I believe. I’m lost. Can reinstating help with my insomnia? Do I stay on 7.5mg?  I know I’m supposed to do 10% reductions but if this doesn’t help my insomnia why be back on it. I should of just went with the wd since I was already 2-3 months in. 
 

ahhh I’m a mess 
 

 

[Gridley]

@RM123

 

We take a conservative harm-reduction approach to tapering.  Because of your many dose changes and two previous cold turkeys, your system is very sensitized.  In terms on how long you've been on the Mirt this time around., I count X number of days taking 7.5 and 15 here and there, 2 weeks of daily dosage at 7.5, then15mg for a few days then 7.5 for however many days you've been on it now.  That's a considerable number of days and very close to the one-month mark where you're at danger of withdrawal from a too-fast taper.  Add in the fact that your system being very sensitized from two cold turkeys and many dosage changes and inconsistent dosing and a too-large reinstatement, and that's why I would not take risks and would recommend holding at 7.5mg until you stabilize, then doing a 10% taper.  You are of course free to taper however you choose.

 

It would be helpful if you would do a drug signature starting with your CT of Mirt including date and dose, then dates (how many days) of your subsequent dosage changes, concluding with how many days you've now been on 7.5.  Approximate is fine. Here's the link.

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 

Regarding reinstatement, it might work or, because of your sensitized system, it might make things worse.  I would lean against it.

 

You're not a mess.  You're struggling like the rest of us and you will make it through this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Gridley

[RM123]

@Gridley thank you again for your support and advice. I will hold at 7.5 until I stabilise and hopefully that helps my insomnia. I will taper from then on at 10% which will take me two years if my math is correct. 
 

and for the fluoxetine? Continue to stay off? 
 

I will update my my sig. 

[RM123]

Anyone else chime in? 

[RM123]

I know I haven’t reinstated fluoxitine but has anyone reinstated mirtzapine and got their sleep back. I really want to get my sleep back. I think I slept for 4-5hrs last night but I always just automatically wake up after 4-5hrs wide awake and cat back to sleep. It’s ruining my life  :,( 

[RM123]

20 hours ago, Gridley said:

 

Regarding reinstatement, it might work or, because of your sensitized system, it might make things worse.  I would lean against it.

 

You're not a mess.  You're struggling like the rest of us and you will make it through this

@Gridley I already reinstated as said in my first post. So you would lean against it? Should I stop taking now?! How can it make me worse? How did I know? My head is feeling “foggy” but I’m not sure if that is because of the lack of sleep. What are the symptoms to look out for? I really need advice. I’m starting to panic. If I get bad sides so I just come off again?

 

Im such a mess and this is taking up all my time I’m doing nothing else but researching this 

[Gridley]

22 minutes ago, RM123 said:

 I already reinstated as said in my first post.

By reinstatement, I meant try a different dose, which I would advise against.  Sorry for the confusion.

 

My advice remains the same:  Make no changes and continue taking 7.5mg as we discussed, then stabilize, then taper.  Please don't panic.  You will be fine and have a good plan in place.

[RM123]

2 hours ago, Gridley said:

By reinstatement, I meant try a different dose, which I would advise against.  Sorry for the confusion.

 

My advice remains the same:  Make no changes and continue taking 7.5mg as we discussed, then stabilize, then taper.  Please don't panic.  You will be fine and have a good plan in place.

@Gridley Is there any signs I should look out for? Like I said my mind is feeling a bit “foggy”. I feel like I failed panicking and going back on Mirt to get my sleep back. But maybe it could be the CT fluoxitine as well. Do I leave the fluoxitine?  Im just guessing at this point.  I should of stayed off both Mirt and Fluoxitine.

[Gridley]

18 minutes ago, RM123 said:

my mind is feeling a bit “foggy”.

You're in withdrawal, and "cog fog" (cognitive fog) is a very normal symptom of withdrawal and nothing to be concerned about.  There may be other symptoms that crop up.  That is natural in withdrawal.

 

It's very possible, or even likely, that some of your withdrawal symptoms stem from the fluoxetine CT as well as your CT of Mirt. as well as other factors I've mentioned with the changing dosages of Mirt.  

 

Stay off the fluoxetine.  You've made many changes and don't need to make another one.  Your system needs simplicity and stability now.

 

The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

 

We have all, myself certainly included, made mistakes with these drugs.  It's not a failure and there is no cause to kick yourself or judge yourself.

 

One of the best things you can do for yourself now is to remain as calm as possible and not overthink the situation.  Blaming yourself and second-guessing with what-ifs put stress on the nervous system.  Acceptance of your actions and of the current situation will go a long way toward helping you heal.

 

 

 

[RM123]

@Gridley thank you for the advice and support. It really helps. I agree hope my system stabiles soon. 
 

I slept 1hr each night for the last two days. I’m really worried this lack of sleep will cause other health issues!!! Please help
 

In the last two days one slight movement of my body and I woke up just over an hr of falling asleep. Before that I would sleep for 4-5hrs and then wake up from movement. 

I’m ready concerned. This is affecting my whole life. My ability to perform. 

[Gridley]

6 hours ago, RM123 said:

 

I slept 1hr each night for the last two days. I’m really worried this lack of sleep will cause other health issues!!!

Insomnia is one of the most common and one of the worst withdrawal symptom. It is unpleasant, for sure,, but we just have to live with it.  It'll get better.   I did give you some techniques and suggestions in an earlier post.  Apace, one of our moderators, has had to deal with insomnia and has come up with suggestions in a recent post that contains a lot of wisdom:

 

"As Gridley has said, and I must echo, there is, unfortunately, no "silver bullet" to withdrawal or any of its symptoms, including insomnia.  If there were, SA would be a much smaller site than it is at this point.  Sadly, it continues to grow as more and more people get caught in the psychiatric medication "web."

 

As Gridley said and you by now clearly understand, insomnia and disordered sleeping is a hallmark of psychiatric medication withdrawal.  It starts earlier than that with many studies making it clear that SSRIs (and other psych meds) frequently suppress REM sleep for those who take the meds.  https://www.sleepio.com/articles/sleep-aids/antidepressants-and-sleep/  Given this as a backdrop, it should be no surprise that coming off the meds can wreak havoc on sleep.  The good news, however, is that the brain works hard to achieve homeostasis and, all other things being equal, the brain will return to a place where sleep becomes, as it should be, a matter of routine.  How long that takes for any one person is impossible to predict.  Having "only" been on an SSRI for 2 years is a positive fact in your recovery, as there are plenty who were on 5-10x longer than that who have healed their lives and their sleep successfully.  But there is no easy formula to apply.  If I could tell you that being on the meds 2 years meant X months of recovery I'd gladly tell you that.  It just doesn't work like that.  It should be a positive and mean a shorter recovery, but there is no certainty.

 

So, what do you do?  In no particular order, some of the things to try:

 

• Don't place too much significance on sleep.  Rest should be the key and when your body absolutely needs to sleep it will.  The anxiety that comes with lying awake and saying "I must sleep" is far worse than the not sleeping.  It's hard but it can be done.
• Try a journaling practice before bed -- get out the things that are on your mind and add 3 things you are grateful for from the day
• Get a sleep ritual in place so that you do the same thing day after day and start to repair your circadian rhythms
• Take a warm bath with epsom salts few hours before bedtime and add in a cup of chamomile tea
• Use lavender essential oils in a diffuser at bedtime
• Exercise early in the day so that you aren't activated near bedtime
• Get outside and get some sunlight early in the day so that your rhythms are reestablished
• Make sure you have a consistent bedtime 
• Try not to be too activated in the couple of hours before bed and, of course, no caffeine
• Add a meditation practice
• Try yoga
• Go for walks in nature

Most insomnia is the result of the body being "hyperstimulated."  It is very hard to calm down an overstimulated body, especially when it is the result of chemical cascades that come as a result of medication use and withdrawal.  But, it can be done to a certain degree and the skills learned will provide valuable as your body improves over time.  

 

From my own perspective, my sleep is still not great, but it it better than it was.  I went through many stretches of 2 or 3 days with zero or an hour or two a night of sleep.  At this point, I have the occasional sleepless night, but most nights I'm good for at least 5 and usually closer to 6 hours.  By "normal" people standards that's not great, but it feels pretty good when compared to 0 or 2-3 hours a night.  As the saying goes, "in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king!"

 

Try not to let it become the dominant factor in your life.  Over time, it will get better and you will heal.  Just do your best to continue to live your life what your brain is repairing itself."

 

 

 

 

[RM123]

Thank you for that @Gridley. I will bare all of this in mind. This is all reassuring to hear. Has anyone reinstated and got their sleep back? 
The day before I didn’t sleep. Last night I think I slept 3hrs. I’m the last 96hrs I’ve had around 6hrs sleep. That’s sounds horrible when I put it like that. I’m worried this lack of sleep will make me more ill. 

 

Im so upset because I’m still young and since I have been sleep deprived I have developed eye bags. I look 20 years older and it makes me really sad. 

 

I just want my sleep back. I’m praying for a miracle 

 

[RM123]

When I go back to work everyone is gonna notice my eye bags and it’s makes me really set conscious on top of everything else. 
 

I feel with this lack of sleep my body won’t cope much longe and I’m worried. 

[Gridley]

5 hours ago, RM123 said:

 

I feel with this lack of sleep my body won’t cope much longe and I’m worried. 

I know it's very uncomfortable, but you will survive with very little sleep.  Read again what Apace wrote in the previous post I sent you.  And he recovered and is sleeping now.  So, yes, you will recover.  

[RM123]

Merry Christmas to @Gridley and all. I thought I wouldn’t post on Christmas Day. My sleep is getting worse. I did not sleep last night. The rest of the week I’ve been sleeping one hr a night. I go to bed and one sudden move wakes me up and I can’t go back to sleep. 
 

PLEASE IM DESPERATE. I’m so scared I won’t be able to focus on what I need to do in life. I’m scared that my lack of sleep will make my health worse. How do I do my work? How do I exercise with such little sleep. This is the worse possible time for this to happen because I have of work I need to do. 
 

I feel as if I need to see my Dr. but I’m scared because I did not tell them I came off my medication cold turkey and now I’m suffering with this insomnia. I don’t know what to do because I don’t want to be put on more medication. I just can’t sleep. I look horrible and so sick with my eye bags. 

[RM123]

Just been researching magnesium and fish oil and I will try it to help with my sleep. 

I have been taking the same supplements for years. Immunance, B12, Lysine,  NAC, echinacea. 
 

and then I read this from Alto
 

“My policy on mixed supplements is that if your system is hypersensitive, when you take a mixed supplement and have a bad reaction, you won't know which ingredient gave you the bad reaction. This supplement contains 2 B vitamins that can cause anxiety; a lot of people with withdrawal syndrome react badly to B vitamin supplements.“

 

Tbh the more I keep reading the more overwhelmed I am, I just can’t keep up and don’t know what to do. Are my supplements affecting me too? There’s just to many variables it too overwhelming

 

Can someone please answer my last two posts. I’m so lost. 

[Gridley]

@RM123

 

I'm sorry you're feeling so bad and scared.  It will get better is all I can say.  I wish I could give you a solution but it will get better in time.  You need to stabilize after your cold turkeys and dose changes on the Mirtazapine.  That will take some time but healing is happening in your brain, though you can't see it.

 

Supplements that you could tolerate when you weren't in withdrawal are often no longer tolerable in withdrawal.  If you are on a multiple vitamin, you might consider stopping it because, as Alto wrote, the B vitamins in a multivitamin can be too activating for your sensitized system.

 

Please re-read the post I sent you on Saturday with the suggestions about sleep that Apace made.  I know the situation feels overwhelming but you will get your bearings.

 

 

 

 

 

[RM123]

3 hours ago, Gridley said:

@RM123

 

I'm sorry you're feeling so bad and scared.  It will get better is all I can say.  I wish I could give you a solution but it will get better in time.  You need to stabilize after your cold turkeys and dose changes on the Mirtazapine.  That will take some time but healing is happening in your brain, though you can't see it.

 

Supplements that you could tolerate when you weren't in withdrawal are often no longer tolerable in withdrawal.  If you are on a multiple vitamin, you might consider stopping it because, as Alto wrote, the B vitamins in a multivitamin can be too activating for your sensitized system.

 

Please re-read the post I sent you on Saturday with the suggestions about sleep that Apace made.  I know the situation feels overwhelming but you will get your bearings.

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you so much for caring and always replying back to me @Gridley means more than you know. 

Im scared of what will happen to me if I keep getting 1hr or less of sleep a day.

 

@gridley can you help me with what I asked in my other post

 

“PLEASE IM DESPERATE. I’m so scared I won’t be able to focus on what I need to do in life. I’m scared that my lack of sleep will make my health worse. How do I do my work? How do I exercise with such little sleep. This is the worse possible time for this to happen because I have of work I need to do. 
 

I feel as if I need to see my Dr. but I’m scared because I did not tell them I came off my medication cold turkey and now I’m suffering with this insomnia. I don’t know what to do because I don’t want to be put on more medication.” Will the drs help me? 

[Gridley]

4 minutes ago, RM123 said:

m scared of what will happen to me if I keep getting 1hr or less of sleep a day.

 

 

 

RM, this is catastrophic thinking.  This is something a therapist, like a psychologist, could help you with.  No, you don't know what's going to happen, and it's natural to be scared.  It's not good for you to imagine all the possibilities of what might happen.  That is very stressful and saps your energy.  It is also living in the future, which is unknown.  You can only live today, making reasonable plans for the future but not creating things that may never happen.

 

11 minutes ago, RM123 said:

 

@gridley can you help me with what I asked in my other post

 

Please tell me which post you're talking about.

 

12 minutes ago, RM123 said:

Will the drs help me? 

 

Unless the doctor is a therapist who can help you by talking with you, which is what psychiatrists used to do, the only tool the doctor has is more drugs.  If you could find a psychologist, that could be a big help.  Psychologists don't prescribe drugs.

[RM123]

2 minutes ago, Gridley said:

 

RM, this is catastrophic thinking.  This is something a therapist, like a psychologist, could help you with.  No, you don't know what's going to happen, and it's natural to be scared.  It's not good for you to imagine all the possibilities of what might happen.  That is very stressful and saps your energy.  It is also living in the future, which is unknown.  You can only live today, making reasonable plans for the future but not creating things that may never happen.

@GridleyYou’re right. And I need to stop it. I’m just trying to figure out if having that much sleep will affect my health long term because if so I need to figure out what I need to do to prevent that and get help. Sorry that’s why I’m asking. I’m really sorry if I’m being a pain.  I read that lack of sleep can really deteriorate my health so that’s why I’m worried. I’m so tired and feel “weird” when I’m out in public from this lack of sleep. I need to be ok around people and not feel like this. 

 

6 minutes ago, Gridley said:

Please tell me which post you're talking about.

I was talking about “PLEASE IM DESPERATE. I’m so scared I won’t be able to focus on what I need to do in life. I’m scared that my lack of sleep will make my health worse. How do I do my work? How do I exercise with such little sleep. This is the worse possible time for this to happen because I have a lot of work coming up that I need to do”
 

I really need to focus and function with the work I have coming up that is very important to me and that why it’s the worst possible time to have this. It’s so important to me. I can’t screw this up. With the lack of sleep I can’t think and concentrate. 

10 minutes ago, Gridley said:

Unless the doctor is a therapist who can help you by talking with you, which is what psychiatrists used to do, the only tool the doctor has is more drugs.  If you could find a psychologist, that could be a big help.  Psychologists don't prescribe drugs.

I was thinking about seeing the Dr because I’m so concerned about my lack of sleep. I’m desperate and I don’t know what to do so was wondering if the Dr could help. Would it be pointless to tell them my insomnia issues. I’m so desperate to sleep again I’m contemplating on taking drugs they give me to help me sleep. At the same time I feel it will set me back being on more drugs. I’m just looking for some experienced guidance and again I’m sorry if I’m coming off as annoying. I’m just worried. 
 

I started CBT-I my second session is in the new year. 

4 hours ago, Gridley said:

Supplements that you could tolerate when you weren't in withdrawal are often no longer tolerable in withdrawal.  If you are on a multiple vitamin, you might consider stopping it because, as Alto wrote, the B vitamins in a multivitamin can be too activating for your sensitized system.

I can stop the Immunance which is a multi. But what about my other supplements. NAC, Lysine, Echinacea which are all for my immune system. 

[RM123]

This is the only place I have to talk about this. I let it all out here. So thank you @Gridley for being patient with me and answering my questions. I honestly have no one else to talk to about this. This is my safe place. 

[Gridley]

46 minutes ago, RM123 said:

I’m just trying to figure out if having that much sleep will affect my health long term because if so I need to figure out what I need to do to prevent that and get help.

.

I'm not a doctor, so I can't tell you if the lack of sleep will have long-term effects on your health.  You might consider going to an M.D.who specializes in sleep issues and ask him that question.  That will at least give you some hard facts.  If you don't want drugs, you can tell the doctor you don't.  It's your body and your decision.

 

Regarding the supplements, I don't know what NAC is.   Our general advice on supplements is to start lower than the recommended amount and work up.  Here's a link on Lysine that I hope will give you some guidance.  Echinacea is a pretty innocuous herb (I take it sometimes when I'm coming down with something).  Again, the conservative approach would be to take less than recommended.

L-Lysine - Symptoms and self-care - Surviving Antidepressants

 

 

[RM123]

I feel so hopeless. I just came from the Dr and told them about my sleep issues and that I came off my fluoxitine and mirtazapine reinstating the latter at 7.5mg. I told them about my personal issues as well and that I have not felt any worse in terms of anxiety or depression being off the meds but have developed insomnia. 
 

Dr said if we get your mood better you will sleep. Dr wanted to up my Mirtazapine to 30mg to address my “mood”. Or come off Mirtzapine cold turkey and start fluoxetine again. Dr also said there are more ssri I can use. She would not prescribe melatonin as they don’t prescribe any sleeping pills at all because there is no evidence to back them up and they are very bad for you. Dr doesn’t believe I would have insomnia after 3 months and that it is my “mood” that’s preventing me from sleeping. 
 

I told the Dr I’ve done my research about my cns being hypersensitive, developing insomnia from withdrawal and that I need to stabilise. Dr said I don’t need to stabilise and it would take 6 weeks to feel affects for any medication I take if I were to up my dose of mirtzapine or start fluoxitine.   Dr said yes you could have insomnia and side effects for a week or two after you stop but not longer than that even though I told her about delayed onset withdrawal that can come even 10months after stopping. I also told her about the 10% taper. Dr said all the information you are reading is wrong. Dr said they use proper evidenced based practice and to be careful what I read online.
 

I came out of the Dr confused and feeling so alone in this  I want to give up. 

[mstimc]

Hi RM123

I think you ran into a typical doctor's response.  I had--and have--a lot of respect the doctor who put me on Paxil in 1999.  When I told him I wanted to stop in 2006, he advised me to take a half dose for a couple weeks and then stop.  He is a good and compassionate doctor who is merely coming from a very narrow view of what these meds do.  MD's are trained to treat things they can see or feel based on physical evidence.  It sounds like your doctor is the same.  Having never experienced the effects themselves,  they can't conceive of effects other than what they "should be".  It may come as a shock, but doctors don't know everything about all facets of medications and their effects.

 

On the other hand, my psychologist very much supported a slow taper because he's seen the effects of meds and their after-effects.  The slow taper advice you're getting here is the safest way to go.  

[RM123]

@mstimc thanks for your reply. I just really don’t know what to do anymore. I want my sleep back and question if I will be like this forever. I don’t know how I go on with my day. I force myself. The other thing that bothers me is my eye bags from lack of sleep. I’m still very young and I only got them since my insomnia. I look like an absolute mess. Like I’ve aged years in 3 months. I go back to work soon and everyone will notice my eyes bags. I look so sick. It’s devastating on top of no sleep. 
 

Im fine getting to sleep most of the time. But it’s waking up after 1hr and not being able to go back to sleep. I’m absolutely miserable. 

[RM123]

@Gridley what do you think about my Dr’s appointment as mentioned above. I really can’t cope anymore. 

[RM123]

My sleep seems to be getting worse since I reinstated mirtazapine. I went from 3-4hrs to 1hr a night and yesterday I didn’t sleep at all. 

[Shane88L]

Hi RM123

 

I symphatise with you, and can relate to your insomnia troubles.
My sleep is far better now than it once was after c/t from zyprexa (apparently it is one of the worst drugs), but can I just say that, getting 4 hours of sleep a night, even 3, is ok. You will manage until you begin to be able to sleep more again, which, in time, you certainly will.

I was getting around 3 hours of sleep every night for months after my c/t, and many nights I got zero sleep. I would be awake for the entire night and throughout the next day, then sleep for a measly few hours the following night. My brain would simply not turn off. This pattern went on for months for me. I was more concerned with the other symptoms I had at the time however, the worst being depression with dp/dr, so I didn't worry so much about my inability to sleep believe it or not. 

 

Your sleep will return I believe. From my c/t it has been 15 or so months and my sleep is getting back to normal, finally. 

Regarding the doctors... They really don't have much of any idea of the pain they put their patients through. The entire "be careful what you read online" is their way of manipulating, unfortunately. To a typical unhealthy doctor, a well-informed patient will be more trouble as they will be harder to "manage". The fact that you are doing your own research is healthy, and should be encouraged... It really is a shame that many doctors are this unhealthy... 
I got the entire "spiel" myself by the doctors in the e.r. (as well as my old gp) when I mentioned something related to an illness or information online. Although over a year ago now, I can still remember how condescending they were to me. I still feel somewhat irritated about it.

Anyway, I really symphatise with you, but I truly believe that, once you are off the drugs, your body will recover along with your sleep.

 

Wishing you strength on this hard journey.
 

 

[RM123]

@Shane88L thank you so much for your reply. I feel like crying. This means a lot to me. Your words are keeping me going. It’s reassuring to hear your sleep is far better now. I’m worried that I will suffer for so long as it took you 15 months to get back your sleep. That makes me so scared to know I may have to deal with this for that long. But none the less I’m happy to hear your sleep is back to normal. What did you do to help with your sleep? Did you wake up like I did?
 

I have anxieties and feel low but for me, getting sleep is more important because when I’m rested I can deal with everything else. I also look a mess and the eye bags and circles are really making me feel worse. I look like Ive aged 10yrs in 3 months and when I go back to work everyone will notice. This really bothers me on top of everything else that comes with lack of sleep. 
 

At first I couldn’t get to sleep and I would be awake all night as my brain wouldn’t shut off. I still have that sometimes like last night with no sleep at all. I’ve managed to learn how to get so sleep by not thinking about all my issues an hr before bed and wind down also using sleep hygiene. But it’s the waking up for no apparent reason after 1hr that really kills me and now being able to sleep after that. 

I’m only getting about 1-2hrs sleep right now and sometimes no sleep as mentioned. I was getting 3-4hrs a month ago. 
 

I went cold turkey off fluoxitine and mirtzapine but I reinstated mirtzapine because I panicked when I started not sleeping. Stupid mistake I should of just stayed off of it. I’m kicking myself for going back on and should of went with the cold turkey symptoms and not have to go through all of this again when I decide to taper with 10%. So I don’t know how my body will recover and get my sleep back if I’m on mirtzapine again hence I should of stayed off. 
 

As for the Dr’s sorry to hear you had to go through that too. I completely disappointed and upset by their response and felt like I was left to fend for myself coming out of the practice. 
 

I really don’t know what to do anymore. Suffering is an understatement. 

[mstimc]

1 hour ago, RM123 said:

@mstimc thanks for your reply. I just really don’t know what to do anymore. I want my sleep back and question if I will be like this forever. I don’t know how I go on with my day. I force myself. The other thing that bothers me is my eye bags from lack of sleep. I’m still very young and I only got them since my insomnia. I look like an absolute mess. Like I’ve aged years in 3 months. I go back to work soon and everyone will notice my eyes bags. I look so sick. It’s devastating on top of no sleep. 
 

Im fine getting to sleep most of the time. But it’s waking up after 1hr and not being able to go back to sleep. I’m absolutely miserable. 

RM123

Your sleep will improve as you recover.  I didn't get much sleep either, but I was able to work and do a decent job.  I'm older than you--59--and I've always had insomnia.  It really doesn't affect your appearance as much as your anxiety is telling you.  I think when you do go back to work, you'll feel better.  For me, work was a kind of therapy because it took my attention off my anxiety and OCD for a while.  The big thing for now is don't be so judgmental on yourself, whether its your ability to sleep or how you think you may look to others.  The negative thoughts you're experiencing have no connection to your value as a human being.

[RM123]

2 minutes ago, mstimc said:

Your sleep will improve as you recover.  I didn't get much sleep either, but I was able to work and do a decent job.  I'm older than you--59--and I've always had insomnia.  It really doesn't affect your appearance as much as your anxiety is telling you.  I think when you do go back to work, you'll feel better.  For me, work was a kind of therapy because it took my attention off my anxiety and OCD for a while.  The big thing for now is don't be so judgmental on yourself, whether its your ability to sleep or how you think you may look to others. 

10 minutes ago, mstimc said:

The negative thoughts you're experiencing have no connection to your value as a human being.

 

@mstimc really helped that your talking to me. Thanks you.

 

Even recover if I’m still on mirtazapine? I really don’t know how I manage to get up everyday and stay up until 10pm with 1hr if sleep a night. I feel as if one day I will collapse from being so sleep deprived. How do you know your older than me? Does it show on my profile? But besides that I have never had insomnia until this. And honestly I look completely different. I compared pics of myself before this and now and I have huge eyes bags/circles. It really really makes me upset beyond belief. I look so young before all this. 
 

As for work I do hope it makes me feel

better but I have a job where I really need to be on top of it with my cognitive abilities. This lack of sleep is hindering that. 
 

Your last sentence goes a long way for me. I’m trying to not be so judgemental. I’m so hard on myself. I can’t stop thinking about all my damn issues with this and everything else I have going on. It’s destroying me. But I will try and not let the negative thoughts have any connection to me as a human being. 
 

Thank you 

[Gridley]

9 hours ago, RM123 said:

 

Dr said if we get your mood better you will sleep. Dr wanted to up my Mirtazapine to 30mg to address my “mood”. Or come off Mirtzapine cold turkey and start fluoxetine again. Dr also said there are more ssri I can use. She would not prescribe melatonin as they don’t prescribe any sleeping pills at all because there is no evidence to back them up and they are very bad for you. Dr doesn’t believe I would have insomnia after 3 months and that it is my “mood” that’s preventing me from sleeping. 
 

I told the Dr I’ve done my research about my cns being hypersensitive, developing insomnia from withdrawal and that I need to stabilise. Dr said I don’t need to stabilise and it would take 6 weeks to feel affects for any medication I take if I were to up my dose of mirtzapine or start fluoxitine.   Dr said yes you could have insomnia and side effects for a week or two after you stop but not longer than that even though I told her about delayed onset withdrawal that can come even 10months after stopping. I also told her about the 10% taper. Dr said all the information you are reading is wrong. Dr said they use proper evidenced based practice and to be careful what I read online.
 

 

Yes, this is a typical doctor's response.  Doctors know nothing about withdrawal and don't believe withdrawal exists.  This is what the drug companies tell them.   They don't believe in slow tapering.

 

Coming off the Mirt cold turkey could be very harmful and cause withdrawal with some very unpleasant symptoms that can last a long time.  Increasing your dose of Mirt to 30 from 7.5mg runs the risk of overwhelming your system since it's become accustomed to the lower dose.  Switching to fluoxetine is drug Russian roulette--it might make you worse.  

 

SA and your doctor are coming from totally different perspectives.  Withdrawal insomnia can easily last 3 months and longer.  It doesn't make any sense to me that your "mood" is causing insomnia.  To me, it has to be something stronger than mood--that being a dysregulated central nervous system caused by withdrawal.  Insomnia is probably the most common withdrawal symptom.

 

You don't need a prescription for Melatonin, which is not a "sleeping pill" but can aid sleep.  You can get Melatonin from any place where you buy supplements. Melatonin for sleep   It's best to start at a very low dosage, such as .25mg, and gradually increase if needed to the lowest effective dose.  

 

We can't tell you what to do.  All we can do is explain what we think is going on.  Your sleep will improve as you recover.  It's not a good idea to panic and look for a magic bullet that will restore sleep.  That "magic bullet" can --and has in many, many cases--done much more harm than good.  

 

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Gridley

[mstimc]

35 minutes ago, RM123 said:

@mstimc really helped that your talking to me. Thanks you.

 

 How do you know your older than me? Does it show on my profile? But besides that I have never had insomnia until this. And honestly I look completely different. I compared pics of myself before this and now and I have huge eyes bags/circles. It really really makes me upset beyond belief. I look so young before all this. 
 

 

Your last sentence goes a long way for me. I’m trying to not be so judgemental. I’m so hard on myself. I can’t stop thinking about all my damn issues with this and everything else I have going on. It’s destroying me. But I will try and not let the negative thoughts have any connection to me as a human being. 
 

Thank you 

I thought you mentioned your age range in an earlier post.  Besides, I'm at an age where its a safe bet I'm older than most folks! 😄

 

I can’t stop thinking about all my damn issues with this and everything else I have going on. It’s destroying me. But I will try and not let the negative thoughts have any connection to me as a human being. 

 

What would you tell a friend who said what you just wrote?  You have intrinsic value regardless of your behavioral issues.  The negative thoughts and withdrawal symptoms are not who you are.  Take a minute to list the things that make you a good person--be objective.   One thing I see is tenacity--you come here for support because you want to get better.  My struggles with anxiety and OCD and withdrawal from Paxil were exhausting, demoralizing and just plain awful.  I, too, wondered if I'd ever find a way out.  But I did, partly because of the same determination you have.