Mimi79: Will I survive?

[Mimi79]

Hi again, dear @Shep

Still have some questions. 
First, do you think it will be more bumpy switching back to Ativan from Valium than  the other way around?

I thought I would be easier…

 

And when you say Valium is a self-tapered drug, does it mean I no longer need to replace each dose of Valium by the Ativan equivalent, that I could just stop it and it will self-tapered?

 

Thank you again

 

 

[Shep]

4 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

First, do you think it will be more bumpy switching back to Ativan from Valium than  the other way around?

I thought I would be easier…

 

I hope it's easier, Mimi. Crossovers and back again can be tricky, but over time, the side effects from the Valium will fade out. Anytime you bring in a new drug, it can cause upticks. But they fade in time. 

 

4 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

And when you say Valium is a self-tapered drug, does it mean I no longer need to replace each dose of Valium by the Ativan equivalent, that I could just stop it and it will self-tapered?

 

 

Since you're at the start of a crossover and are only taking 0.2 mg Valium, yes, it's safe to just stop. 

 

Let us know how you do over the coming days. 

 

 

 

[Rosetta]

Hi, Mimi,

 

I hope you are doing all right.  I see that you switched.  I hope you are coping well with that.  
 

Thank you for your sweet note on my thread.  I was so excited to see it!  Thank you!  I’m doing ok.

 

Rosetta

[Hanna72]

Dear @Mimi79

Thinking of you. 
Stay strong, focused and keep it slow and simple.

Rooting for you always 🙏

[Mimi79]

@Shep

I am actually in the middle of my first COVID and I would like to know if there is a big risk of having a wave from it? And if so, will it be short lived? 
Thanks!

[Shep]

There's a risk of a wave from any illness, so it's important to rest and do self care as much as you can. If you're adding in additional medications, be sure and use the drug interaction checker to make sure it would conflict with what you're already taking.

 

Drug Interactions Checker

 

Now is a good time to stop tapering and go into a long hold until you completely recover from Covid. 

 

While withdrawal isn't understood by most people in our lives, Covid definitely is, so now would be a great time to reach out to friends or family to get some help with groceries and other things, if possible. Anything to make your life a bit easier as you recover. 

[Rosetta]

Hi, Mimi, I’m sorry to hear that you have Covid.  I hope it’s very mild for you.  Thinking of you! 🧚‍♀️

[Mimi79]

Thank you @Shep and @Rosetta for your support, it means a lot to me. 
After the first few days of COVID, I’ve been hit by a sudden awful wave of fatigue. A kind of fatigue I’ve never had in my life. It was unbearable. I couldn’t take care of my child, home, make food, etc… After 10 days without any improvements, I’ve ask for a short sick leave to my doctor, working was  impossible. At the same time, I’ve developed a blepharitis of my right eye. 
After an acupuncture treatment, a miracle happened, most of this awful fatigue went away.
But I had to take an antibiotic for my blepharitis (doxycycline). After few days of feeling great, and as my antibiotic treatment went on, I started to have some mild depressed feelings. Now it’s been 5 days of increasing depression and today it is worst to a point I am barely functioning.

I’ve stopped the antibiotic just in case, 2 days ago, but for now no improvements. 
I haven’t touch my withdrawal. 
Why do I have this wave? I don’t understand because I was feeling so great after my acupuncture treatment. I don’t understand the root of this wave. Antibiotic, post COVID depression, etc???

I am so scared!

What can I do to help?

Thank you for your help and encouragement.

Anne-Marie

[Shep]

It's impossible to say what causes waves with so many variables, as well as how unpredictable waves are in general. Plus Covid has lingering effects that are entirely unpredictable. 

 

Taking sick leave sounds like a great idea and since you're also dealing with Covid, being able to message the "I'm too sick to work right now" goes over much easier within the context of Covid than with psychiatric drug withdrawal, so I would get as much downtime from work as you can. 

 

Also, make sure you're not going into catastrophic thinking. While you're not working, perhaps spend some time on the non-drug copings techniques thread and make sure you're not spiraling into catastrophic thinking.

 

Many of us on the forum have had Covid and recovered. There's no reason to think you won't bounce back from this. 

[Rosetta]

Sending you a big hug!  I hope you are starting to get some energy back. How are you feeling?  Did the fear go away?  I hope so!

 

🧚‍♀️

[Mimi79]

Hi dear @Rosetta,

Thank you for your kind words.

Yes I am a bit better. The awful post viral fatigue seems to be gone for good, I am starting to resume my usual running training. I am back to work too. 
On the other hand, I still have some W/D symptoms, lingering low grade depression, but it seems to improve slowly. I am still very fragile, though.

I hope I will feel better, I am planning to go “south of the border” beginning of July, first time I will travel outside Canada since COVID hit. I Don’t want to feel bad.

I hope you are ok, dear Rosetta. 
Have a nice evening!

Anne-Marie

[Rosetta]

Thank you, Mimi.  I’m sorry that you still have lingering effects, but I am sure they will pass.  I hope you have a nice trip. - R

[Mimi79]

@Rosetta Thank you for your reply.

Yes, our little family trip to Ogunquit, Maine, was wonderful. We stayed one full week there, with my brother and his family. 
I felt surprisingly well, because the week before, I was in a wave. The wave ended as soon as I saw the ocean! 

Unfortunately, when I came back home, my symptoms came back too.

I am trying right now to resume my Ativan taper, but it is awful! I am starting to feel very discouraged, I have this feeling that I won’t be able to succeed and regain my life. 
God, it is so hard…

I read that you had a bad wave too few weeks ago. I really hope that you’re feeling better.

 

Have a nice day!

Take care of you…

 

Marie

 

 

[Rosetta]

You will succeed!  That intense doubt is one of symptoms of WD.  You must ignore it!  Thinking of you, R

[Mimi79]

I need some insight of my fellow survivors! I am at a bad place and I don't know what to do next. I will try to summerize my very long journey.
I started my taper after a very low dose/short use of lorazepam. In fact, I was using it twice a week for 3 months when I got hooked on it. So I started a very careful and slow taper. The first few months were not so bad, at one point I was even able to go back to work and was living my life almost normally, but I was tapering very slowly, dry cutting with a scale, so in my first year I was only able to taper from 0.3mg A to 0.18mg A. The second year of my taper, things started to be more and more difficult. I was alterning between waves that last 1-2 months and windows of few weeks, with very long hold of numerous months in between, in hope to stabilize. Now I am in my third year of this awful taper. During the last 12 months, I've only been able to taper from 0.18mg to 0.14mg A, with suffering. I am holding the same dose since last november and I have some very short windows (5-10 days) followed by long waves of 4-6 weeks.  So, the more I taper, the lower I go, the worst my symptoms are. Even with this very long hold, I dont see any sign of stabilization. When I feel better for 1-2 weeks, my hope get slammed again with an inevitable wave.
So I would like to hear from you, to try to understand what I am doing wrong. Some people says that the lower you get, the better you feel. This is really not my case! And at first the long holds were helping me, but it doesnt anymore. What should I do, and is it normal? I am more and more hopeless and tired. Thank you for sharing with / helping me.

[Shep]

@Mimi79 Have you been holding both the mirtazapine at 42.5 mg and Ativan .14 mg since November 2022? Do you feel like you've completely recovered from having Covid and that it didn't go into long Covid, which can have some of the same symptoms of withdrawal? Do you feel like you may have reached tolerance? 

[Mimi79]

@Shep Thank you very much for your help! 
Yes, I have been holding both the Mirtazapine and Ativan since November 2022. As if I have reach some sort of tolerance, I really don’t know, as even if I read all the thread about it, I still don’t really know what it means and if it is something real. But I can say that since I came back to work in last December, I’ve never been able to stabilize, my longest windows lasted maybe 10 days and it was during my holiday in July. 
 

About my COVID, it think that it is over. I’ve experienced a very great fatigue during 2-3 weeks after I got it, then I woke up one day (after an acupuncture treatment) and it was over. I came back to my « w/d normal » level of energy. So no, I don’t think this is a lingering issue from COVID, but who knows!

 

I’ve had two short round of antibiotic (no fluoroquinolone), in June and in July, and I saw a little uptick in symptoms during those days, but I don’t think this is the reason.  I was already feeling crappy before that.

 

The only link I can see, is that when I don’t work, I tend to feel better, but as soon as I have a little bit of stress (it really don’t take much), it seems impossible for me to stabilize. But unfortunately, I cannot stay in sick leave forever. 
 

There is another thing, I am still dosing twice a day, not more often, and I don’t think I have interdose withdrawal, but maybe it doesn’t help for my stability?

 

If I am in tolerance, what should I do? 

Thank you

 

Marie

 

 

[Shep]

11 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

Yes, I have been holding both the Mirtazapine and Ativan since November 2022. As if I have reach some sort of tolerance, I really don’t know, as even if I read all the thread about it, I still don’t really know what it means and if it is something real. But I can say that since I came back to work in last December, I’ve never been able to stabilize, my longest windows lasted maybe 10 days and it was during my holiday in July. 

 

11 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I’ve had two short round of antibiotic (no fluoroquinolone), in June and in July, and I saw a little uptick in symptoms during those days, but I don’t think this is the reason.  I was already feeling crappy before that.

 

Was your 10-day window in July before or after you were treated with an antibiotic? 

[Mimi79]

3 hours ago, Shep said:

Was your 10-day window in July before or after you were treated with an antibiotic? 

It was 3 weeks after my first round with doxycycline and 2 weeks before I took Macrobid for an UTI. So it was in between.

This window was during my 3 weeks holiday, so I wasn’t working. 

[Mimi79]

@Shep Is « tolerance » a real thing with benzo withdrawal?

[Shep]

18 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

@Shep Is « tolerance » a real thing with benzo withdrawal?

 

Yes, tolerance to benzos is real. Many people find, over time, the need to increase the dose. There's tolerance and there's a concept called tolerance withdrawal, which can be more complex and debatable, especially when it comes to polypharmacy for those who are tapering the benzo last (as recommended) because some of the current symptoms may be late-onset waves from prior drug tapers. These threads may help parse through this:

 

Tachyphylaxis, Reaching Tolerance or as It's Lovingly Known “Poop-Out”

 

"Benzo Tolerance withdrawal" during tapering - does it exist?

 

Tolerance is different than dependence. Dependence on benzos generally sets in around 2 - 4 weeks of taking the drug. So even if the drug is helping with sleep, for example, at the one month mark, someone may suffer withdrawal by stopping it too suddenly, even though they haven't reached tolerance yet. 

 

Interdose withdrawal can also complicate things. Relieving symptoms may be more a matter of when you take the drug than simply how much the daily dose is. 

 

23 hours ago, Shep said:

Was your 10-day window in July before or after you were treated with an antibiotic? 

 

20 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

It was 3 weeks after my first round with doxycycline and 2 weeks before I took Macrobid for an UTI. So it was in between.

This window was during my 3 weeks holiday, so I wasn’t working. 

 

You may want to hold for a few more weeks and see if you can settle into a more recognizable baseline. Right now, how much of your symptoms are work-related and how much are connected to prior illnesses and treatments is unknown. 

 

Are you able to schedule a day off during the week? If you have any leave time, you may want to see if you can strategically take advantage of it so you give your body some much-needed down time. Going into work on a Monday knowing you're off that Wednesday can take some of the pressure off. If you can do this a couple of times a month, you may find your work/life balance easier. Just a thought, especially if this is an option for you. 

 

 

[Mimi79]

@@Shep Thank you again for your help.

 

I will hold few more weeks before panicking, as you propose, to see

if things settle a bit more.

But If I am in tolerance, what can I do about it?

Unfortunately, I can take days off work. I am working in an hospital and it is very rigid about our schedule, particularly during the summer. I know it would help, but for now it is impossible. 

 

Marie

[Shep]

On 8/18/2023 at 8:35 AM, Mimi79 said:

But If I am in tolerance, what can I do about it?

Unfortunately, I can take days off work. I am working in an hospital and it is very rigid about our schedule, particularly during the summer. I know it would help, but for now it is impossible. 

 

This is from one of the links posted earlier:

 

On 7/5/2020 at 3:43 PM, brassmonkey said:

Tolerance from benzodiazepines Is similar to poop-out, but more often is accompanies by withdrawal symptoms and an inclination to take more of the drug.

 

To counter poop-out or tachyphylaxis from an antidepressant, typically doctors will increase dosage or switch to another drug (but they are becoming more and more reluctant to increase benzo dosing because of the addiction implications). By changing drugs or increasing the dosage it is hoped that a few more receptors can be affected. The results from this are uneven, and it often stops being effective after a while.  

 

Tapering out of Poop-out or tolerance is the second option and it can be a very frustrating process because there may be no visible results for quite a while.  There is not a lot of information available on time frames because Poop-out is not a well-documented phenomenon.   Once improvements have started to apear they will increase in fits and starts.  Progress can be monitored by comparison with the poop-out baseline.

 

And I'll add that a main problem with updosing to help with tolerance for a benzo is it's best done within 2 - 4 weeks of the last reduction, but you've been holding for much longer than that. 

 

If your symptoms are too much for your current job, are you able to switch to something less taxing? It wouldn't be forever. Just for this season. Or are you able to hire someone to help out with the usual household chores, such as cleaning the house/apartment? Anything to lighten your load so you can rest when you're not working. 

[Mimi79]

Hi everyone.

Did a direct switch to Valium last week. It went pretty well. But only 7 days after the switch, I decreased a little to much and now I am in hell. I went from 1mg to 0,8mg of Valium, only few days after the switch. 
Bad idea…

Little tip, be patient, don’t do the same mistake as me…

[Mimi79]

Hi everyone,

I need some help or insight.

I did a switch from Lorazepam to Valium on February 7th, I switch from 0,11mg lorazepam to 1mg Valium. 
At first it was a bit rough, but after 5-6 days, I started to feel a lot better. I was functional. 
One week after the switch, so on St-Valentine’s day, I drop to 0,8mg of Valium. Realizing few days later it was too much too soon, I went up to 0,9mg of Valium and I am trying to stabilize there since then. 
So tomorrow, it will be 2 weeks since I updosed to 0,9mg. 
Is it normal that I am still feeling very bad? My usual pattern of 2 good days for one crappy day doesn’t seem to come back. It is only crappy or very crappy days…

Do I have to be worry about this, is this normal? 
I wonder if it is the new «  normal me » on Valium. I hope it is not. I’ve had so much hope in this switch.

I have to add the fact that I have a lot of stress at work and in my personal life right now. 
So thank you for giving me your two cent.

 

Have a nice evening everyone…
 

[Rosetta]

Hi, Mimi,

 

I’m not here to answer your question, because I don’t know the answer.  I don’t have any experience with carefully updosing or carefully switching and what to expect.  Sorry.   Nonetheless, I’m just here.  I don’t check in often, but I saw your post, and I wanted to say hi.  I’m sorry that you are feeling bad.  
 

Hang in there!  I hope it all gets better soon, Mimi.

 

🧚🏻‍♀️Rosetta