Kiasofia: Recovering from the damage done by Escitalopram and tapering Lamictal

May 11, 2021

Thank you so much for this forum! It feels nuts that the best source of information is an internet forum, but after what I've been through, I have no doubt that only fellow users are worth listening to.

Here is my (long) story.

My AD story started at age 18 in 2002, but it would take the events of 2019 to make clear to me what that story actually is. As a teenager I felt disconnected and a sense that life was pointless. After graduating high school and having no idea what to do with my life, I didn't want to be alive anymore. I was taken to a psychiatrist and learned that these feelings were due to a chemical imbalance that could be fixed with an SSRI. Like insulin for diabetes. I walked out with a prescription for Citalopram and a feeling of joy. My condition was taken seriously and there was a cure! The placebo effect is an understatement. I felt better before even taking my first pill.

Three years later, in 2005, I was in the tropics and crashed. The theory is that my chronic upset stomach meant I wasn't retaining the meds. When I returned home, a wreck, I was switched to Lexapro/Escitalopram. I became extremely suicidal, but at the time no one realized the medication caused the suicidality. At the time it was seen as a worsening of my condition, that the meds weren't able to prevent. After a suicide attempt I was hospitalized and treated with Lamictal in addition to Escitalopram. Two months later I "woke up" and felt like myself again. Looking back I think that either the Lamictal was able to snap me out of the condition Escitalopram put me in, or I'd been on Escitalopram long enough (3 months) that I'd adjusted to its' debilitating effects. Perhaps both. I was then (mistakingly) diagnosed with Bipolar 2.

14 years later, October 2018, I was running low on Escitalopram while on vacation, so I decided to ration and take half of my 20 mg pills. I didn't notice anything, so just continued with that for half a year. Then I came across Lost Connections by Johann Hari. The book completely resonated with my experience with depression and made me question whether the meds were actually doing me any good. The author repeatedly states the importance of a slow taper, with the help from a professional for anyone considering stopping their meds. So I went to my doctor to ask for a 5mg prescription for Escitalopram, so I could reduce from 10 mg. (Reading this forum makes me realize that that in itself would have been a very fast taper.) However, my doctor could assure me that 10 mg Escitalopram was a very low dose and there was therefore no need to taper further...

So in april 2019 I quit Escitalopram while remaining on Lamictal 200mg. I suffered brain zaps (as I did whenever I forgot to take my meds) and dizzyness but was ok for a few weeks. Then depression symptoms worsened along with the stresses of starting a new job and moving. (I could not have chosen a worse time to quit meds..) I had a constant lump in my throat, extreme anxiety, insomina and crying spells that were out of control. I couldn't think straight and was having crying spells at work, so September 2019 I went to my doctor who granted me sick leave, while urging me to get back on my meds. She referred me to a psychiatrist so I'd be in more capable hands... The psychiatrist said restarting meds couldn't hurt and told me to start back up again with my last dose (10 mg). By then I had been off Escitalopram for 6 months..

Two days after restarting Escitalopram (October 2019) I became extremely suicidal. I also suffered a feeling of horrible inner restlessness and racing thoughts (later diagnosed as akathisia). I stopped taking Escitalopram, but that made no difference. My parents took me to the ER where I was given 15mg Oxazepam. After 30 min I felt so much better. Akathisia, suicidality, depression - all gone. It lasted about 5 hours. Then I was back to being deranged. I was given 5 tablets so I could take one a day and make it to my follow up appointment with the psychiatrist. I didn't take the Oxazepam when I went to see her, so she could see the state restarting Escitalopram had put me in.

Since I was suicidal, she had me hospitalized. I desperately wanted to be euthanized. They offered ECT instead. The thought of being put under appealed to me, so I accepted. The 200 mg Lamictal I was on was cut to 100 mg since it could interfere with the ECT treatments. After 6 treatments I "woke up" and felt normal again. I was given 3 more treatments.. I felt euphoric. I had no anxiety. It was amazing. Everyone was overjoyed to have me back to normal... Never mind that I couldn't find my way around my old neighborhood where I'd lived for 12 years.. A week later I crashed and was given 2 more ECT treatments and put on lithium (December 2019). Lithium was considered the medication with the best track record for maintaining the effects of ECT...

I didn't bounce back to euphoria and instead remained petrified by what these quacks had done to me. I was (and still am) terrified of what quitting Escitalopram at 10 mg did to my brain and the following damage of restarting it, quitting after a few days and then 11 ECT treatments and lithium. I have amnesia but it's hard to remember what I don't remember, so I don't know how much has been deleted. It's only when people mention things we've experienced together, that I have no memory of, that it's uncovered. Or when I see pictures of myself that I feel I've been photo shopped into, since I can't recall being there.

I was released from hospital December 2019 and told to quit Lamictal once I felt stable. Then I could quit Lithium after 6 months if I was feeling stable. By now I knew beyond any doubt that this was dangerous advice and that psychiatrists are truly clueless. I felt so helpless. I was terrified of being on the meds and terrified of what would happen when I went off them.

February 2020 I was able to get an appointment with a therapist who a friend recommended. The therapist turned out to be a psychiatrist who is disillusioned by her field and trying to make the best of it and help those she can. She has been a true god send and I've been seeing her for over a year now. She is horrified (but not surprised) by what I have been through and believes the only thing wrong with me is being wrongfully treated with ADs at a young age. She had me read Joanna Moncrieff's book A Straight Talking Introduction to Psychiatric Drugs. That helped me sort out what I've been through and assured me that I only "need" to be on medication because my brain has adapted to that state. Not because of a genetic chemical imbalance. She helped me taper off lithium and we're in the process of tapering lamictal. She hasn't tapered anyone off these meds before, but she's open about her lack of knowledge and we're learning together.

I will be writing a new post about my lamictal taper so far and asking some advice for dealing with the remaining tapering, but for now this post is long enough!

May 14, 2021

Hi @Kiasofia,

Welcome to SA. Glad you found us. Sorry to hear what happened to you starting at such a young age, but this is unfortunately a familiar story. Although the treatment was unlucky, it is very fortunate that you found a therapist who is interested and willing to help. Many people have a difficult time with this.

Generally we recommend reducing the dose about 10% per month until you are off. Note that it is 10% of your last dose, not the initial dosage. To understand why, please check out the link. You are of course welcome to taper faster, but tapering quickly can result in some pretty severe withdrawal symptoms that can last quite a long time (months to years). Tapering slowly helps minimize both symptoms and symptom severity, ensuring you can remain functional while you get off the drug. Reducing more quickly than 10% can be too fast for many people, and as you get to lower doses you may want to slow the reduction even further, since receptor occupancy of these drugs tends to decrease more rapidly at lower doses. Here are some tips on tapering lamictal.

How are you doing now? Do you still have any symptoms of withdrawal from the lithium or escitalopram? Is lamictal the only drug you are taking? Some other drugs can interfere with metabolism and can also have psychotropic effects (antibiotics, steroids, some supplements, coffee, nicotine etc.). It would be very helpful if you could create a drug history in your signature like this one. This link will take you directly to the signature. Signatures generally look like this:

Example:

2001–2002 paroxetine
2003 citalopram
2004 paroxetine
2008 paroxetine slow taper down to 2016 Aug off paroxetine
2016 citalopram May 20mg Oct slow taper down
2018 citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg

This will allow any moderator or member to quickly see your history and where you are in your taper, and thus be able to help more easily without too much reading (most people here are volunteers and have other jobs). Thanks for posting your story and happy you found us : )

Edited May 14, 2021 by DataGuy

May 16, 2021

Thank you for reading my long post! It was therapeutic to write, but not ideal for a quick overview! Let me know if I should make further changes to my signature. I am doing quiet well now. I think the last withdrawal symptoms from Escitalopram (waves of anxiety and feeling disconnected) stopped around April 2020, a year after first quitting. It's been over three months since I came off Lithium and had no withdrawal problems during the taper, or since then. I dare to hope I'm in the clear there. 35 mg Lamictal is the only drug I'm on now. No alcohol, caffeine or nicotine either.

Since I started tapering from 50 mg Lamictal to 35 mg I've started feeling more withdrawal symptoms though. This could be due to a less than ideal tapering scheme. My psychiatrist is helping me taper, but within the limits of available doses. Up until now I tapered unevenly (phasing in a lower dose on different days). That went well from 100 mg to 75 mg to 50 mg. I held at 50 mg for four months so I could taper off Lithium.

Mid March I resumed the taper by phasing in 25 mg, but then some withdrawal symptoms came. Not horrible withdrawal symptoms, but enough to know this wasn't the way forward. I've since read up on why an uneven taper is bad for the central nervous system... Instead I got 5mg pills and have been cutting them in two so I can reduce by 2.5 mg at a time.

Since 2.5 mg is less than 10% I'm considering a linear taper (rather than the 10% of current dosage method) until I get past 25 mg. After that, I don't see how to cut available pills (25 mg, 5mg, 2mg) to make reductions that are 10%. So now I'm pondering a liquid taper once I'm past 25mg. I have the chewable tablets so they will easily dissolve. It's getting the math right that concerns me.. I foresee needing guidance once I start the liquid taper, but for now I guess my only question is: Is it unwise to do a linear taper even if the doses are less than 10% reduction?

Again, thank you for your time and this forum. More than getting advice, I just appreciate the existence of a forum where my experience with medication and psychiatry is validated and I'm not alone!

May 16, 2021

Hello Kia. From looking at your drug sig, it is good that you are making small reductions. If I were you, I would wait a longer time between reductions. It looks like you waited 6 days, 12 days, and 20 days between the previous 3 cuts. The reason is, it can take several weeks for your brain and body to feel the effects of the dose change. If you keep making cuts so frequently, your nervous system could become more and more destabilized, and you could end up with significant withdrawal that could take a long time to recover from. Here is a quote about this: "Removal of lamotrigine can cause a nasty rebound of "alerting," i.e. anxiety, restlessness, and sleeplessness."

Here is a link that gives specific instructions on how to taper and dose Lamictal. You can get or make a liquid, which makes dosing it at any amount very easy.

Tips for Tapering lamotrigine

6 hours ago, Kiasofia said:

Is it unwise to do a linear taper even if the doses are less than 10% reduction?

I'd say that as long as the cuts are not greater than 10%, that would be OK, assuming you allow about 4 weeks in between each reduction.

May 17, 2021

Thank you for your advice! I was planning to do a minimum 3 week hold at my current 35 mg dose, but will extend to 4 weeks minimum.

The tapering down to 50 mg went so easily, I was really hoping the finishing line was not too far in the distant future. But I'm realizing I need to just forget about the finishing line and take it slow. The thought of reliving the terror of withdrawal terrifies me. I'm often tempted to just stay on lamictal indefinitely. But then that also terrifies me. It's also infuriating to be taking a drug that I only ever "needed" because of side effects of an antidepressant, and that only "helps" me because I'm addicted. That being said, I'm grateful to have made it this far and that I wasn't put on a bigger cocktail of medications.

I'll read through the liquid tapering thread again. Maybe I won't find it as overwhelming as the first time. These 16 years on Lamictal I've always found their taste gross. I swallow them, but can still taste them. I'm not looking forward to drinking that taste! So I plan to go for the 2.5 mg taper plan until I'm past 25 mg.

May 18, 2021

@getofflex gives good advice. You want to taper based on your symptoms. As soon as they start flaring up more than usual you want to keep an eye on them and maybe slow down your taper. This is what is known as a "symptom-based taper". Everyone will need to taper at a different pace, so the 10% reduction recommendation is just a guideline. Some need to go much slower.

Good luck @Kiasofia. Look forward to your updates.

Edited May 18, 2021 by DataGuy

May 19, 2021

On 5/17/2021 at 4:10 PM, Kiasofia said:

Thank you for your advice! I was planning to do a minimum 3 week hold at my current 35 mg dose, but will extend to 4 weeks minimum.

Good - I would do that too.

On 5/17/2021 at 4:10 PM, Kiasofia said:

The tapering down to 50 mg went so easily, I was really hoping the finishing line was not too far in the distant future. But I'm realizing I need to just forget about the finishing line and take it slow.

Great idea. I know it's trite, but as the old saying goes "slow and steady wins the race".

On 5/17/2021 at 4:10 PM, Kiasofia said:

I'm grateful to have made it this far and that I wasn't put on a bigger cocktail of medications.

Great attitude. It helps to see the positive side of things.

June 16, 2021

Just an update.

I held at 35mg for 4 weeks and then reduced to 32.5 mg. The last two weeks at 35 mg I was feeling quite good. No withdrawal symptoms. The first week of 32.5 also went well. Feeling upbeat and optimistic. Then day 8 and 9 some anxiety and worry crept in in waves. Day 10 I had a terrible headache and nausea and just lay in bed moaning. The same thing happened a month ago, but I thought it was a bad reaction to an Epsom salt bath. Now I'm thinking it was withdrawal build up instead. It was exactly on day 10 of lowering the dose then too.

I was physically better the next day, but have been getting waves of feeling depressive, teary, anxious, lump in throat. It comes and goes and feels very much like a cloud passing in front of the sun. It can blow over in an hour and I feel bizarre that I was so beside myself and now I'm fine. I'm disappointed that a 2.5mg reduction is even noticeable and concerned about the way forward. I will be holding for 4 weeks at 32.5mg and then see.

I know I'm no where near that point: But is there any sense of when people tapering lamictal make the jump to 0? I understand it's a weaning process regardless, but shouldn't going from 1 mg Lamictal to 0 mg be easier than going from 1 mg Lexapro to 0 mg? Considering that 10 mg Lexapro is a strong dose, while 10 mg Lamictal is not? Just trying to understand the mechanisms of all this. I've been learning so much from this site and getting a much better understanding of what I've gone through/am going through! I'm so grateful it exists!

June 16, 2021

@KiasofiaHi, You are a inspiration, you are doing so well with all you went through.........

I am also on Lamictal. I will be following your taper. I'm at 37.5 mg. I am holding and until I taper of off of Lexapro. These are nasty drugs. I somehow ended up on a small cocktail, trying to find my way out of a fast taper off of Prozac last summer, crashed (didn't know it was WD and the pdoc was clueless). With all that was going on we were tapering Lamictal. Doc didn't know how to do that either, I was dropping every 2 weeks. Needless to say my brain is still trying to stabilize. It is hard to control the anger and frustration, if the doctors new what they were doing with we would not be in this mess.

You are strong and will sail through ridding yourself of this last drug.......

Greatful

June 17, 2021

Thank you for your kind words @Greatful. I've been struggling with crying spells and feeling irritable and hopeless today. So your words of encouragement were much needed! Are you using 5 mg pills to make 37.5 mg? Just trying to learn what I can about how people taper. I've been looking into the brassmonkey slide taper and considering getting the 2 mg pills for a more gradual taper, if they can be cut to make 1 mg. Or else figure out the liquid..

I read your story and can't believe (well actually I can) that your doctor suggested a "drug holiday". I try not to be bitter and angry, since they're not helpful emotions, but I just don't understand how doctors can be so clueless. The damage they do... I saw you've also done a CYP-test. I had one done and it helped prove that I had an adverse reaction to Lexapro. But from what I've been learning on this site, I don't think my genetics mattered as much as being told to take a high dose of a potent drug while my brain was frazzled by withdrawal..

I also try to meditate and practice mindfullness. The concept that "we are not our emotions" is easy to grasp when it comes to neuro-emotions. I feel completely taken over. But sometimes I think it's important to have a good cry. I think I have a lot of unprocessed sorrow that has been numbed by drugs for almost twenty years.

Again, thank you so much for your encouragement and best wishes for your recovery!

June 17, 2021

On 6/16/2021 at 2:27 PM, Kiasofia said:

I'm disappointed that a 2.5mg reduction is even noticeable and concerned about the way forward. I will be holding for 4 weeks at 32.5mg and then see.

Yes, it can be discouraging how such a minor dose change affects us. I suggest you listen to your body, and don't change the dose again until you have several weeks of stability. It might take more than 4 weeks.

On 6/16/2021 at 2:27 PM, Kiasofia said:

But is there any sense of when people tapering lamictal make the jump to 0?

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/25039-managing-the-endgame-taper-under-construction/?tab=comments#comment-536418

June 17, 2021

8 minutes ago, getofflex said:

listen to your body,

I will. Thank you @getofflex 😊

June 17, 2021

I really wish I would have stopped the Lexapro right away when I had such a bad reaction to it. I thought I should give it a chance. You know the typical response is you have to give it time. I was on it years earlier. Something in my gut was trying to tell me not to do it, that I didn't do real well on it the last time. I was so desperate for something to stop the pain.

I had the genetic test done years ago (and new one recently), (the new one shows mood stabilizers,) I had the information wrong in my head. I thought I was a slow metabolizer for lex so I thought a low dose of lex might be okay. I requested a got a copy of my old test(while I waited to get the new one done) Well It turns out I have a gene that metabolizes ultra fast, not slow, and a increased risk of adverse reaction. Needless to say my pdoc had this information. I really wonder if I would be in this mess if 1. he would have recognized that I probably was in WD to begin with, and 2. we should have tried to go up a little on the Prozac and stabilize.

Oh well you read all this on my thread.

Did you have any brain zaps or brain numbing when you were on lex?

I really wonder if some of my systems I am experiencing now are to do with Lexapro.

It is so good to see you are off of lex and are past WD with it. AND you are doing just fine without them........

It gives me hope that I to will be off of these drugs after over 20 years of use...

I do use the 5mg tabs of lamicatl for right now. I cut one in half. Weight to make sure even dosing everyday. I'm scared to do anything wrong. I am so sick of feeling awful. I have been dealing with this for over 6 months

Hang in there, you are do a awesome job and are a true inspiration.

June 17, 2021

Hi Kia Sofia, What is the name of the psychiatrist turned therapist you saw? Is she in England?

June 19, 2021

Hi @sleepylex. She's in Norway, but there seem to be several initiatives in the UK now that share her way of thinking. Perhaps you can find someone to help through these pages:

http://cepuk.org/support/

https://www.btpinfo.org.uk/about-us.html

June 19, 2021

On 6/18/2021 at 12:41 AM, Greatful said:

Did you have any brain zaps or brain numbing when you were on lex?

I would take lexapro in the morning and if I ever forgot, I would know by the afternoon, because I got brain zaps. When I quit the drug I also got brain zaps every now and then for a few weeks. I just found it a bizarre phenomenon, but it didn't bother me much.

On 6/18/2021 at 12:41 AM, Greatful said:

It is so good to see you are off of lex and are past WD with it. AND you are doing just fine without them........

Yes! When I was going through WD, in an unbearable fog of anxiety and depression, I wondered if the chemical imbalance theory was true after all. Maybe I really did need to be on meds. Or maybe my brain was now dependent on meds and couldn't manage without them. The experience helps me navigate what is happening now. A well meaning friend was telling me that it's no shame to take meds, and I shouldn't be upset if I can't get off lamictal after all since some people need these meds, like insulin for diabetes.. It's good to be completely confident that this is not true, but dependency is very real and I know the road ahead wont be easy and will be longer than I hoped.

Today I've had waves of depression and hopelessness, but feeling better now and hoping it has passed.

I'm cutting 5mg pills, but not weighing them and since they don't have a line and are so small, it's definitely not exactly 2.5mg. I dream of getting tapering strips like they have in the Netherlands. How amazing to have a ready-made micro taper! It would sure free up a lot of my time spent ruminating about doses and tapering methods!

I'm considering my next taper being getting 2mg pills and reducing from 32.5mg to 32mg for a longer hold. To get a break from pill-cutting and get a more exact dose. Either way I'll continue with my pill cutting and 32.5mg for at least another week to not make reductions or changes.

June 20, 2021

23 hours ago, Kiasofia said:

I'm considering my next taper being getting 2mg pills and reducing from 32.5mg to 32mg for a longer hold. To get a break from pill-cutting and get a more exact dose. Either way I'll continue with my pill cutting and 32.5mg for at least another week to not make reductions or changes.

I think this is a good idea. Much better to go too slow than too fast. Actually going slower may help you get back to feeling normal more quickly, paradoxically, in addition to keeping you more functional during the taper. I believe these pills are also designed so they can be dissolved in water.

June 22, 2021

On 6/20/2021 at 10:23 PM, DataGuy said:

I believe these pills are also designed so they can be dissolved in water.

Yes they are. I'm considering making a liquid and stabilizing at 32.5 or maybe a slight up dose to 33 mg is a good idea... I've been feeling depressed, hopeless and a lack of initiative for the last week now and a bit dizzy too. With windows of feeling ok. I can laugh if I see or hear something funny.

I got a measuring cup that has marks for 5, 10 and 15ml and a 1 ml syringe. So if I fill the cup to 5ml and dissolve a 5mg pill then 1 ml equals 1 mg?

My psychiatrist says once I'm stabilized, then the next drop wont necessarily be as bad as this one was (that's her experience with seroquel at least). Realistically I assume tapering will just get harder and harder even with smaller decreases, but I hope there's a chance I'm wrong.

June 22, 2021

1 hour ago, Kiasofia said:

I got a measuring cup that has marks for 5, 10 and 15ml and a 1 ml syringe. So if I fill the cup to 5ml and dissolve a 5mg pill then 1 ml equals 1 mg?

Yes, @Kiasofia, that should be right as long as the dissolved pill is evenly distributed.

1 hour ago, Kiasofia said:

My psychiatrist says once I'm stabilized, then the next drop wont necessarily be as bad as this one was (that's her experience with seroquel at least). Realistically I assume tapering will just get harder and harder even with smaller decreases, but I hope there's a chance I'm wrong.

Yes, but you want to make sure you are stable, which means holding for a bit longer after you feel better. The whole idea of tapering slowly is to avoid becoming destabilized in the first place, which means listening closely to your symptoms and not allowing them to intensify or get out of control. For some people it does get harder as they get further down, but some have few problems. Hope you are in the latter category.

June 22, 2021

3 hours ago, DataGuy said:

as long as the dissolved pill is evenly distributed.

Yes, I read it's important to keep stirring while extracting the amount. It' doesn't seem fool proof though and I'm not sure I'd end up with a more exact dose than my half cut pill? I think even weighing the pills isn't exact since the drug isn't distributed evenly? Again I dream of tapering strips...

3 hours ago, DataGuy said:

The whole idea of tapering slowly is to avoid becoming destabilized in the first place

I definitely feel destibilized...and dizzy. Is a slight updose to 33mg worth considering? Otherwise I'm thinking "keep it simple" and just keep splitting 5mg and staying at 32.5 for a while.

Also, just trying to learn, if anyone has thoughts on taking lamictal in the morning vs evening or splitting the doses, I'm interested in hearing experiences. I wont be making any changes myself (keep it simple), but I ended up taking only an evening dose as a result of being hospitalized and having my morning dose stopped. Ideally I would think splitting the dose would have been better for withdrawal, but maybe it doesn't matter with lamictal due to a fairly long half life? I read a thread about someone being advised to split the lamictal dose, but they were suffering side effects, not to help withdrawal, if I understood it right.

June 23, 2021

Yes, an updose might be worth considering @Kiasofia. When did you start feeling destabilized and dizzy? Can you describe the progression and time course of your symptoms?

I don't think you need to split doses. As you said, the half-life on lamotrigine is 29 hours, so you should be ok for the day. There was something I read about people taking their blood pressure meds at night having better results, but can't remember the journal article. Will have to search for it later. Might be irrelevant to your situation, but I think there is probably an advantage to taking sedative meds before bed rather than in the morning.

Edited June 23, 2021 by DataGuy

June 23, 2021

I was feeling good until day 8 of the taper (7 june). Then some anxiety and depressive symptoms on day 8 and 9. Day 10 I was knocked out with nausea and a headache. The next few days I alternated between feeling good and feeling anxious and depressed throughout the day. From June 16 until yesterday I was feeling depressed and anxious for most of the day, with a few windows of feeling ok. Today I've been feeling mostly ok. So there's a chance I could be stabilizing... I'll give it a few more days before I consider an updose.

I'm glad to hear taking lamictal in the evening makes sense, and a split dose likely doesn't make a difference for withdrawal. It's been so nice not starting my day with taking medication, after having that as a morning routine for almost two decades. In retrospect I'm glad my morning dose was just cut, as far as shortening my tapering journey, although it was incredibly irresponsible of the psychiatrist to do it. He was clueless, of course, and claimed I could just quit the remaining 100 mg once the lithium was working, since they do the same thing anyway (stabilize mood).... I'm just imagining what would have happened if I'd listened to him, considering what a 2.5 mg drop was able to do!

June 23, 2021

@KiasofiaHi, stopping by to see how you are doing? I am still so amazed at your strength and motivation to get off these brain changing drugs. You will get past this little bump in the road. You are strong. You have proved it by the years of pain you went through and survived.

I am seeing a new pdoc next week. I am really worried if she will be on board with me tapering off the Lexapro. My therapist suggested to ask her what her knowledge was of the current information on wd. If she is not, could she recommend someone from the practice that I might see, or look into it and learn. I should also be upfront that at this time I am not looking to add or increase any of my meds. I'm a little nervous. I hope I am not in a window when I see her.. not sure if it will be a in person visit or if they have started to see patients in the office. If it is in office I will bring some information with me.

Once again I want to express you are a inspiration.

Can you share what you would tell yourself when you where in the window of depression and anxiety. I can relate when you said you where struggling with the fog of depression and anxiety and wondering if maybe you did need the meds or if your brain was now dependent on them....

Thank goodness the depression gone tonight. Be when it returns I will think of you fighting your way through it.

You give me hope that I will be able to live a life without ad. After 20 years thinking you need them, it is scary.

Take care

June 24, 2021

Ok @Kiasofia, sounds like a good plan. Yes, always best to avoid vacillating up and down with your doses if you can. And you're right, doctors in general are still pretty clueless about this and were outright incompetent for decades. Hard to comprehend.

June 25, 2021

Yesterday was a good day, free of anxiety and depression and today was pretty good. Some waves of anxiety, but hardly worth mentioning. Compared to how I was feeling until Wednesday, it's a world of difference. So looks like I can avoid updosing for now. Thanks for weighing in @DataGuy!

Thanks for checking in @Greatful and your kind words. They help a lot. I try to deal with the current waves of depression and anxiety by telling myself the emotions are "just passing through" and try to watch them like a passing train. But I can still get overwhelmed and I think it is good to cry, if possible, rather than suppress the need. It also helps that it's not constant so I'm able to recognize them as neuro-emotions. Unlike when I crashed after quitting lexapro and I was in the fog for months and couldn't see it ever ending. Then I didn't feel like the emotions could "pass through" since it was so constant. So listening to the body and tapering slowly is key. I hope you have a good experience with your appointment next week, I read some good advice on talking with doctors on this site, but now I can't find it. Maybe you've seen it? It's important to remain calm to avoid triggering their instinct to prescribe more drugs..

June 30, 2021

Hi, stopping by to see how you are doing?

I met my new doctor yesterday. I think it went really well. She has a lot to digest with my drug history. She is willing to work with me to get off these drugs. She said she has had other patients that were sensitive to going off meds and how they were going slowly. She even mentioned a scale. I told her I have one and I am using it now to get my odd meds that I brake in half to be constant in weight. She talked about liquid. I am not sure what route I will take.

Looks like you are going to go the liquid route?

Hope all is well

July 1, 2021

That's really sweet of you @Greatful! I'm doing much better. Shorter waves of anxiety and depression now and then, but that can just as much be life situation as withdrawal. It doesn't feel as intense and overwhelming as it did up until a week ago, and I'm not feeling dizzy. So I'd say I've more or less had a good week, but will need to hold for a bit more.

I've been researching liquid taper and micro taper on this site as well as on the Lamictal withdrawal group on Facebook. There are some good videos there and an example of a taper schedule. I found it very helpful to see a concrete plan of how someone has liquid tapered this exact drug and what a micro taper schedule can look like, even though mine will be much slower. I've attached it in case your curious.

I'm thinking that a micro taper could be right for me. I will be asking for a prescription for 2 mg pills (in addition to the 25 and 5 mg) and then take as much of my dose in pill form as I can, and the rest in liquid. So for starters I will take 32 in pill form and taper 0.5 in liquid.

I'm so happy your appointment went well! I'm truly impressed she knew about scales and liquids! I think you're in good hands then. Someone who listens and knows that withdrawal can be hard is the most important. And then use SA to get more knowledge when making decisions. Wishing you the best!

Lamictal taper spreadsheet.xlsx

July 10, 2021

@Kiasofia I briefed over your into again. I don't think it will ever cease to amaze me what all you have gone through and how far you have come.

I hope all is going well for you☺️

July 10, 2021

Awww! Thank you @Greatful. I needed that. I've been feeling down this past week, a bit dizzy again and some anxiety. There are some life stressors happening and that is definitely triggering me. I've been feeling angry and irritable as well, and those aren't emotions I'm used to having. So it seems I hadn't stabilized after all, was just a window. Starting to get impatient...and missing how stable I felt at 35 mg. I've said it before, but it's unbelievable that such a small drop is this destabilizing.

As of 8. july (two days ago) I've been taking 32mg by pill and 0.5 mg liquid. I just feel that my pill-cutting skills are very poor and worry that the varying pill size from day to day is in itself destabilizing....but maybe changing things makes it worse...at least now I know I'm getting a minimum of 32 mg every day...and am ready for a liquid microtaper once it's possible to reduce more.

I hope you are ok? As ok as anyone in our situation can hope to be at least❤️

July 10, 2021

They had me move my lex to noon around the end of June. Since then I have felt awful. I do think it helped with my sleep though. I was sleeping very restless even though I was on sleep aids. The Lex is to stimulating. Now my anxiety is up during the day. I had a pretty big bout of depression and increase anxiety after the Lex move.

I really am struggling on how horrible these drugs are on your system. When you read the stories from other members, I can't believe how most doctors have no idea what these drugs do to your whole body. When will it be realized in the Medical community. At least the Psychiatrist should be up on the latest data! And how they prescribe it for everything, aches, pain, ect. Sorry for the rant, I am so frustrated.

How long did it take you to stabilize when you ct'd Lex. I have been off of Prozac for 8months and Seroquel ct'd 3 1/2 months. I don't know if you read my thread?

I am sure you have and still do at times but "I want my life back" Please tell me the symptoms lighten up as they come and go🙄

I will keep reading your into from time to time for some SISU 😊 You have a lot of SISU ( My heritage is from Finland) So you probably know that means fortitude, determination, strength of will.

I do tell myself I just have to make it through today.

Take care of yourself

Someday we will be writing our success stories‼️

July 10, 2021

25 minutes ago, Greatful said:

At least the Psychiatrist should be up on the latest data! And how they prescribe it for everything, aches, pain, ect. Sorry for the rant, I am so frustrated.

I have this rant on a regular basis. It's just unforgivable. I was reading a post on Mad In America and it said that if those who prescribe these drugs, understood the harm they are doing, they wouldn't be able to live with themselves. So they live in denial instead. And if it wasn't for these drugs, why would we even need psychiatrists? Either there is something neurologically wrong with our brain, if so we need a neurologist. Or we have hormonal or nutritional issues and need someone who is good at blood work. Or we have an emotional problem and need a psychologist.

Sorry to hear you've been feeling awful. It seems strange to me to move your dose to noon...

34 minutes ago, Greatful said:

How long did it take you to stabilize when you ct'd Lex.

It's hard to say with all the crazyness that happened, but a year after I quit I wasn't having any withdrawal. I think I was feeling better even before that, but I was so scared of the situation I was in that it was hard to tell.

If it wasn't for tapering lamictal I would be fine now for sure. I might have to accept that I need to do a long hold on this dose, since my life isn't exactly taper-friendly at the moment, and the messy taper since March has been destabilizing.

45 minutes ago, Greatful said:

Please tell me the symptoms lighten up as they come and go

For sure! It comes in waves and cannot compare to how I've been at my worst. We will get back to feeling like ourselves again. I'm sure of it. But it's a scary journey to be on.

I had to look up sisu! Finnish is very different from Norwegian even though we are neighbors. It's a great word/expression😊 One day at a time!

Take care❤️

July 26, 2021

@Kiasofia How are you doing? I hope everything is okay🤗

I am still waiting to stabilize a little more. 😞

Have ever looked at this other site. They have a lot of information. They have a area that talks about drug trials and how they get approved by the FDA. This is what I found about Lamictal https://www.theinnercompass.org/learn-unlearn

During both trials submitted to the FDA for the approval of the anticonvulsant Lamictal (lamotrigine) for treating people diagnosed with bipolar disorder, the researchers changed their primary way of measuring the drug’s effectiveness many times, including once more after the trials were completed. The FDA medical review noted that the drug would have failed to beat placebo if not for the final, last-minute change in what the researchers were measuring.

Source: U.S. Food and Drug Administration. “Medical Review: Lamictal.” (June, 2003)

It is a pretty big site so you will have to click around to see what interests you.

https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/page/wondering-where-start

I thought as a fellow Lamictal user, I would relate to how so a little amount can set you off. Sometime in May I

tried to go up on the the Lamictal to 50mg, I think it was the next day after 2 up doses I went cycling through emotions, extremely depressed for like a 1/2 hour, then I switched to extreme rage. Back and forth for awhile and I also got a good headache. I decided that I was not going to up dose. Then in June I missed 12.5mg pill (from my pill box) I took the 25mg tablet, didn't notice that I had done that until I went to feel the pill box several days later, well that week I went through a really bad couple of days. Now today some how I dropped the 25mg tablet and took the 12.5mg tablet. Found it on the counter 4 hrs later. I couldn't understand why I was starting to feel so off, my brain was acting very disconnected d/r was getting worse. Found the pill on the counter and took it. These things are powerful!

Thanks for letting me chat🤗

'

July 27, 2021

Hi @Greatful! Thanks for chatting😊 I'm familiar with Inner Compass Initiative and like SA I'm so impressed with the wealth of information there. I joined their Facebook group a few weeks ago and watch the discussions that are hosted there.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/innercompassconversations

I find comfort in being a part of a community where my negative experience with these drugs is normal. So many friends and family members are happily taking their antidepressants and believe they are life saving. I feel cut off from them, as a result, and find comfort in the withdrawal community.

I'm mostly doing well. I 'm starting to feel more like I was at 35mg. Less angry, irritable, rarely crying, not feeling so hopeless, able to do what I need to do. Some anxiety and depression creeps in now and then, but it's not bad. Yesterday I started a sloooow microtaper with the goal of getting to 32mg by September. I'm reducing by 0.05 mg every 4 days and really hoping I wont notice it/that it will be tolerable. I'm just doing it so I can get to a dose that doesn't involve cutting tablets or using liquid. And then I want to stay there for a few months and let my central nervous system rest. It has been through a lot these past two years!

I really want to be free of meds NOW, but the feelings of utter despair I've been having, remind me so much of the horror from quitting lexapro. From all I've been reading I realize that holding for a few months or even a year is not the same as giving up, but can instead increase the chances of success. I'm not aware of any side effects at the moment and it is less than 1/4 the dose I was on from 2005-2019. And less than 1/2 of my 2019-2021 dose.

We'll see what happens...but that's where my thoughts are now anyway.

How are you doing these days?❤️ I saw you posted a video on EFT tapping😊 A friend lent me the book by Nick Ortner and I find it fascinating. So tapping is now a part of my morning and/or evening ritual. I use their app called "The Tapping Solution" which has some free sessions.

July 27, 2021

@Kiasofia I am doing a little better. I had a pretty rough week or so. I don't know they all blend together. I really want to try cut a 1% or 2%of my lexapro. I still think I am having stimulation from it. I still fight so much with nausea and having very little appetite. I think it is from the Lex. I suppose it all could be W/D from the xanax I lowered to fast in May. This can be so frustrating. My husband tells me all you can do is try and see what happens. It terrifies me, I don't want to it to get really bad, like last spring. It feels like my brain is really trying to think straight again. Comes and goes just like the rest of W/D symptoms.

Are you trying to get to 25mg tablets? Do you notice any blunting with Lamictal? When I started dropping by 50mg last winter( didn't know any better and doc. was okay with that fast of reduction every 2 weeks) I would notice in about 12 to 24 hrs that the front of my brain would feel loser or like a knot was loosening. My thinking would feel clearer. Crazy

I can really relate to wanting to be off these meds. I am excited to see if my thinking, brain panic, and D/R will clear. I am so tired of trying to make my brain think with common sense. I am also terrified of how it will be without meds. I have been on them so long. My hubby keeps reminding me I wasn't so good on them. I guess they are a false sense of security. Like the meds won't let you get bad ha ha

Keep me posted on how let me know how it goes.

Take Care of yourself and know you are thought about. Not ever alone♥️

July 28, 2021

14 hours ago, Greatful said:

Are you trying to get to 25mg tablets? Do you notice any blunting with Lamictal?

I was really hoping to get to 25mg before withdrawal became bad, but 32.5mg has been rougher than I was prepared for. I take 25+5+2mg pills and then 05.mg liquid. (Since Monday 0.45mg liquid) So if I can succeed at micro tapering off the liquid down to 32 I think I'll be less frustrated to be stuck on this dose for a while. I'm not aware of any side effects, like blunting, but many in the Lamictal Facebook group mention it and they feel they can think clearer the lower they get.

In fact my decision in 2019 to get off these drugs was purely based on the conviction that they were unnecessary, not because of side effects. I didn't even realize my desire to sleep 12-14 hours was a side effect of lexapro... If I'd known my zombie-like existence was drug induced I might have tried to go off years ago. But at the time I was convinced I needed to fix my chemical imbalance. So who knows. I'm very glad to now wake up rested after 7-8 hours sleep and I don't need (or want) coffee anymore. I thought I had poor genetics that made me need an insane amount of sleep and still be groggy. But it was lexapro. I figured since I have family members who also sleep crazy amounts it was surely genetic. But guess what else I had in common with them...SSRI use! I also lost weight when I quit lexapro and sweat less. Another thing I've noticed is I don't have dry eyes anymore. I think reducing lamictal has helped with that. And less dry mouth now than I had at 50mg lamictal.

So I'm glad to be off and have come this far. I just wish I could have done it without going through a nightmare. But I guess that's how we grow... I'm not eager to repeat the whole nightmare though, so that's why my end date for lamictal tapering will remain open. I'd rather taper very slowly over many years than risk ending up a wreck desperate enough to go on more drugs.

Thank you for thinking of me! Sending you warm wishes❤️

August 10, 2021

Update: After about two weeks of tapering to 32.35 I got a bad headache and some anxiety. It could be any number of things. Too much sun? Too much sugar? But I feared it was withdrawal and I now know that tiny reductions can be noticeable. So I'm back at 32.5 as of August 8th and holding for a while longer. Maybe I can try again in a month or two and taper even slower. I would love to get to 32 mg...but can't handle any more WD now. I'm hoping that once 32.5 mg becomes the new normal for my body and brain and not 1/3 of the dose it's used to, that tapering can happen a bit faster. But who knows when that will be....and either way I'm preparing myself that I might need to do a very slow taper regardless.

I really appreciated this thread and reading Rhiannon's journey:

Kiasofia: Recovering from the damage done by Escitalopram and tapering Lamictal

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