neurogenesis: Tapering 50 mg quetiapine very slowly

[neurogenesis]

Thank you

I ve never imagined serotonine syndrome can have psychotic features

[Shep]

1 hour ago, neurogenesis said:

Thank you

I ve never imagined serotonine syndrome can have psychotic features

 

Here is more on serotonin syndrome:

 

Serotonin Syndrome or Serotonin Toxicity

 

Even if it didn't go into serotonin syndrome, you may have had an adverse reaction from the combination of the SSRI with St John's Wort.

 

Are you currently taking any supplements? If so, please list the name, dose, and the starting date.

 

 

[neurogenesis]

1 hour ago, Shep said:

 

Here is more on serotonin syndrome:

 

Serotonin Syndrome or Serotonin Toxicity

 

Even if it didn't go into serotonin syndrome, you may have had an adverse reaction from the combination of the SSRI with St John's Wort.

 

Are you currently taking any supplements? If so, please list the name, dose, and the starting date.

 

 

I took in the past lion's mane,quercitin(for at least 6 months) (after my first hospitalization)

Omega 3  few months ago

Curently no suplements

 

 

 

[neurogenesis]

Looking back i think taking lion's mane on antipsychotic is bad ideea couse it s causing neurogenesis witch could involve helping the brain build excesive neurotransmiter receptors responsible for supersensitivity

[neurogenesis]

Im also drinking green tea daily

[OldDodgy]

@neurogenesis

Can I just chip in to wish you well. 
The advice you’ve had is amazing!! 
OD 

[neurogenesis]

At the moment im trying to develop skills that would help me in case i will experience psychosis supersensitivity

I believe there is a natural way of coping with it,anything is possible

I l use and experiment with whatever tools i can get in case the slow taper and holds will fail.

Super high dose of cbd, high doses of taurine , i l try watching moji and eckart tolle maibe i can get some skills against supersensitivity psychosis

I will even try smoking cannabis low dose (at my own risk)  to see if it would make me more aware 

 

The main problem with psychosis supersensitivity is that the mind says things and our body react emotionally  

Have to find a way of not reacting emottionally

There s got to be a way of separating yourself from the supersensitivity psychotic mind.im just trying to prepare for the worst.

[ChessieCat]

@neurogenesis @Nelly

 

I've moved the posts about the scales here to member's Introduction topic from the Great Britain / UK member topic.

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by ChessieCat

[ChessieCat]

I suggest that you post your questions about using your scale in the relevant topic:

 

using-a-scale-to-weigh-and-measure-doses

 

[Shep]

16 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

Super high dose of cbd, high doses of taurine , i l try watching moji and eckart tolle maibe i can get some skills against supersensitivity psychosis

I will even try smoking cannabis low dose (at my own risk)  to see if it would make me more aware 

 

 

Did you read JanCarol's post and check out the  Alternatives for Psychotic Outbreaks thread she linked? I would read that thread, especially the posts that JanCarol made there.

 

I contacted JanCarol and asked her to weigh in on your thread out of concern for you and your belief that you can drug your way out of this using cannabis. Her background includes urban shaman work and she knows more about cannabis and psychedelics than most anyone on this forum. 

 

On 5/9/2022 at 2:23 AM, JanCarol said:

It's not about getting rid of the extreme states (I'm still unclear, you use the diagnosis word "neurotransmitter supersensitivity" a lot - but I hear very little about what you are feeling, what you are experiencing.) but instead it's about expanding your capacity to receive and accept what you are experiencing.

 

From my own experience going through extreme states, what JC is saying here is key. Acceptance will help you through it more than anything. And I'll add - curiosity. If you are curious about something, you're less likely to be afraid of it. This is a brilliant talk about reframing stress. 

 

How to make stress your friend | Kelly McGonigal video (14 minutes)

 

If you do a slow taper, especially a micro-taper of 5% a month with holds, I don't see you experiencing a lot of psychosis at all. That generally comes from a cold turkey or rapid taper which triggers insomnia, so you'll want to do all you can to protect your sleep. Adding in "super high doses" of this and that will likely lead to a lot of paradoxical and unpredictable symptoms, including insomnia. When you go for three or four days and nights without sleep, that's when psychotic symptoms are more likely to develop. The more you feed your thoughts of gloom and doom into them, the worse they care. 

 

So keeping a positive thought instead of this "I have to prepare for the worst" mentality may be helpful in reducing the stress your brain is under. 

 

Anyways, we've given you the advice from years of experience watching people go through withdrawal and from our own experiences with altered states. You'll have to decide what you wish to do for your own taper journey. 

[neurogenesis]

@Shep i see, thank you a lot for support,and especially for the thought that i won t be experiencing a lot of psychosis supersensitivity at all 

I also wanna let you know that i started the taper off 

(Brass monkey slide micro tapering method with 5 percent and 2 week hold )

 

 

[neurogenesis]

Does the energy come back after getting off ?

My dream is to get off the poison safely and get my energy back to workout in gym

(I was a bodybuilder before psychiatry)

 

 

 

[JanCarol]

Hey Neurogenesis (I like your name, it's like Neuroplasticity, except with the potential for rebirth!)

Thank you for updating your signature, this helps, but - 

 

Quote

Quetiapine   once a month from 300mg, 200mg  ,100 , 50mg (april 2021)

 

Getting off 50 quetiapine cold turkey induced me psychosis supersensivity

 

Around the time i quited 50 mg quetiapine i was taking 150mg sertraline ,and taking st john worth

 

Sertraline  150 mg was stoped cold turkey during hospitalization

 

It's still not what moderators (like myself) are looking for.

What month/year were you on the sertraline (thank you for the dosage, that is a pretty high dose) - and how long?  Please put this info next to the drug.  "about that time" do you mean Apr 2021?  Or later?  Or earlier?  Were you on the sertraline before/while you fast tapered the quetiapine?  

Can you simplify this into months/ years for each drug so we know when a drug was started, when it was stopped, how long you were on them?

 

Like: 

April 2020 Depot Shot (list drug)

May 2020  Put on sertraline and quetiapine 300 (I don't know)

April 2021 - Depot shot (again?)

April 2021 - June 2021 quetiapine tapered to 50 mg.

June 2021 Cold Turkey from quetiapine 50 mg  

 

This is a suggested format, I'm not saying I got it right.  This is why we ask for signature, so that we can understand what happened to you, and where you are on your journey.  We consider many factors here at SA.  We like to know as much as we can, and that's why your privacy remains anonymous.

Inquiring Mods would like to know!  😎

 

On 5/9/2022 at 10:02 PM, neurogenesis said:

Thank you

I ve never imagined serotonine syndrome can have psychotic features

Katinka Blackford Newman is an award-winning UK Journalist/filmmaker, and so was able to document quite well her descent into serotonin madness in "The Pill that Steals Lives."  I've read it, it's well written, with lots of good factual information presented in between tales of her descent into insane dissociative states, visions of harm to self and others, paranoid delusions, all the things we call "psychosis," and she received a diag-nonsense of such (among others like "borderline" and "bipolar").  But it was just the SSRI that did this to her.  She was seriously gaslit by the psychiatrists.  If you are able to read (many people in withdrawal struggle with this), I recommend it.  It's a great introduction to how wrong psychiatry can be (and usually is).

You are in the UK, it's probably easy for you to find it in libraries.

 

22 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

lion's mane on antipsychotic is bad ideea couse it s causing neurogenesis witch could involve helping the brain build excesive neurotransmiter receptors responsible for supersensitivity

 

Yeah, not so much.  The main contraindications with lion's mane involve blood coagulation / blood thinners, and monitoring blood sugar.   

If I were you I'd stop worrying about neurotransmitters. 

Doctors don't really understand them.  Even the experts here on SA don't really understand them.  The people that make the drugs don't really understand them either.  There may be 2-3 people on the planet who are beginning to get an inkling of how this stuff works (I've been reading about the "Connectome" which looks not at firing neurons, but the pathways between them).  We just don't know, and those who postulate about them are expressing opinions.  

I call it "fiddling neurotransmitters" = we don't know the interactions between dopamine & serotonin & norepinephrine and all the other MAO neurotransmitters.  We just know that they interact, re-regulate, up-regulate, down-regulate in ways that our understanding is just a glimpse the tip of the iceberg.  (for example, most serotonin is in your gut - and so specialised probiotics or poo transplants may be a more effective antidepressant than the SSRI's - but there's no money in that - the research remains inconclusive.)

ALL of these drugs, as well as street drugs, alcohol, and many supplements "fiddle" the neurotransmitters. 

The goal to healing - is to not "fiddle" them, to let them settle.  

So if you believe that lion's mane affects neurotransmitters (I don't believe so - they are more mitochondria / immune / based), then yeah, it's a bad idea.  I know very little about lion's mane, other than it is claimed to be a "smart drug" and "neuroprotective."  (note:  neuroprotective seems to be about the feeding the myelin sheath around the nerve, not so much about genesis of receptors or transmitters.)

But like I said - I know very little about this particular mushroom (even though I took it for a period of about 6 months in a mushroom immunity/energy blend.)

But here's the thing:  was it the sertraline, the St. John's Wort, the quetiapine, or the lion's mane?  Does it matter?  This is a form of "whodunnit" where you can churn on these thoughts endlessly.  (the other big "whodunnit" is about who hurt you, a therapy topic that many people get tied up in for years)

What does matter is that you ended up where you did, and it's best to focus on how to get out again.  My Dad always said, "If you need to get out of a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging."  The whodunnit doesn't really solve the problem.

 

19 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

Super high dose of cbd, high doses of taurine , i l try watching moji and eckart tolle maibe i can get some skills against supersensitivity psychosis

I will even try smoking cannabis low dose (at my own risk)  to see if it would make me more aware 

 

Ok - see "fiddling neurotransmitters" above.  You cannot drug (or supplement) your way out of a drug injury.  

Careful with the CBD (Shep's warning about paradoxical is very real), and I wouldn't take so much taurine, and I would match taurine to magnesium so that it is not overactivating.  If you eat meat & eggs 3-5x a week, you likely get all the taurine you need.  You will not heal any faster with taurine.  The CBD might smooth some of your symptoms, and be nourishing and anti-inflammatory (as long as you don't react), but unless the taurine specifically helps, it's really acting as a placebo.

And well.  There are some who have been helped by cannabis (especially with "antipsychotics") .  But you didn't answer one of my concerns:  how old are you?  are you male? (I see that you are, but I'm leaving the question here for others who might consider dancing with the cannabis imp).  Is Apr 2020 the first time you were ever psych drugged?

The problem with "at my own risk" is - once Humpty has fallen off the wall, it is so much harder to put him back together again.  It's much better, safer, simpler to prevent him falling off the wall.  And that means avoiding substances like cannabis  (and alcohol, and perhaps caffeine) - at the very least until you are stable, and have been for a few years.

3 KIS's Keep It Simple, Slow, Stable

 

Additionally, you say, again:  

19 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

The main problem with psychosis supersensitivity is that the mind says things and our body react emotionally  

Have to find a way of not reacting emottionally

There s got to be a way of separating yourself from the supersensitivity psychotic mind.im just trying to prepare for the worst.

 

What are you experiencing?  When you say "psychosis supersensitivity," I (and others) have no idea what you mean.  We know that neurotransmitters upregulate and downregulate - and really, they will do that in their own time.  So focusing on this aspect of withdrawal is tripping you up.  Using a psychiatric label to describe symptoms and emotions is not very helpful to you or us, either.

 

Please be descriptive.   What were your symptoms when you say you were at your worst "psychotic"?  Hearing voices?  (I notice you mentioned that)  Hallucinations?  Delusions?  Talking back to the TV when it had special messages for you?  Grand ideas that you could save the world or paranoia that "they" were out to get you?  What are these manifestations* that you call by this (effectively) meaningless psychiatric label?  Use your words (or draw, paint, make music or dance) to describe your experiences.  This is abundantly healing.

*these can happen to anyone, with the right stressors

THEN, look at what your life is now.  You've expressed concerns about sleeping.  Ok, then.  What else?  What are your day-to-day, daily symptoms?

Dr. Joseph Glenmullen's withdrawal symptom checklist

Rate symptoms daily to track patterns and progress

Keep notes on paper

 

Compare.  If your symptoms are bearable right now then give thanks.  You dodged a bullet.  If you have continuing symptoms - they are surely less than you were experiencing before; give thanks.  You are getting better.  You can get better.  Obsessing on the worst will not serve you.  If your continuing symptoms are the same as your worst - then give thanks.  You can catch it before it gets worse than worst (there is always more *worse* if you give it your attention).

There is a dark wolf of brooding anger and fear, and a white wolf of shining hope, love and trust.  Which wolf is stronger?  The one you feed.

 

And emotions - you know, they can't kill you?  They really can't even harm you.  Emotions, feelings, are your body's way of trying to tell you something.  It's not the feelings that derail you - it's the THOUGHTS about the feelings (that's what gets classified as "psychosis" by the p-docs), the RUMINATIONS, and the OBSESSIONS about the feelings.  The ruts of thought which drive those feelings in, make them "sticky."  (hint:  this is where meditative practice is useful)

 

In fact, finding healthy ways to express those feelings / emotions will make you stronger.

 

There is a Zen story of a master who was making a pot of tea when demons come to his door.  They knock and knock and he just ignores them, putting the pot of water on the fire.  The demons start to rattle the windows, as he prepares the tea leaves, and he focuses on his task.  Finally the demons rant and rave and rail and howl, as they shake the walls, proclaiming, "DON'T YOU KNOW WHO WE ARE??"

The monk calmly pours the tea and says, "You have been here before.  You will be here again.  We may as well have a cup of tea."

*
So it's not the demon emotions which are the problem - it's what you think and do with them.  (ASIDE:  The archaic of "demon" is "daemon" which is defined by Oxford as, "an inner or attendant spirit or inspiring force. " = inspiration!  Art!  Music!)

 

Again, as Shep said, "preparing for the worst" is focusing on the catastrophe rather than focusing on the skills (which wolf?).  And her comment about curiosity is key.  I watched curiosity guide her through some of the most bizarre extreme states, and she has come out of her experience of decades of denigration and drugging - to be a whole, happy, productive human being.
 

(another hint:  it takes time!)

And again, the better you can describe your extreme states when you have them (what are the emotions? what do the voices say?  Are there arguments?  how is your perception distorted?  What do you trust?  What don't you trust?) - these descriptions are your roadmap for dealing with them.

You don't want to shove them down or shut them up.  Failure to do so means you will still need to clean those closets out later.  May as well work on them now, when they are present, intrusive manifestations.

The "psychosis" and extreme state thing is hard!  In the medical world it's like the "ends of the earth" a "no man's land" of consciousness.  With that comes shame and shunning and the answers are drug it or shock it or lock it away.  Yeah, who likes that?

The shamanic view is that you, as a human, are experiencing what you are experiencing to learn who you are.  This is not to say there isn't harm and injustice in the world.  But all we can ever do and be is our best.  Humans have been doing it for millennia before pharma, and while modern stress drives us to our limits, our ancestors were stressed too, just differently.  

Whoa, you got me to write an article (sorry).  I see you just posted, I hope this still applies.  Much of what I wrote here is for anyone, not just you.

I hope there's something in there that speaks to you.  I hope it's not overwhelming, I've offered many things, in the hopes that something helps.

And - I hope you see the sun today.

[JanCarol]

Hey Neurogenesis - (can I call you NG?)
 

Bodybuilding is such a good feeling!  I love the deep muscle / all muscles feeling after a good session.  (I'm of the "no strain" school of bodybuilding though).

At home you can do bodyweight exercises to keep physique.  Or even easy weights. But take it gentle.

In tai chi we have a "70% rule."  When doing anything, do 70% of your capacity.  Then you will always improve (you wouldn't at 50%, for example) - and you will never get hurt.

 

Another good rule in recovery is to follow the good feelings.

"Oh that felt good" - like a hot magnesium bath, or a good exercise session, or a walk in the sun, or splashing paint on a page, something that - feels better.  This is a signal in the right direction.

It's called "hedonic rehabilitation," and if it feels good to stroke a fleece or roll on the floor, or dance, it's helping to heal your body, your autonomic nervous system.  

This helps a lot with diet, too.  Start to notice if foods help you - I had a great kelp, edamame, cabbage & sunflower salad from the deli tonight.  Sounds awful, but balsamic, it was fantastic, and I could feel it nourishing.  

Hedonic rehabilitation is not 'do whatever I want' like drinking binge, or sleep deprivation, or lots of chocolate cake - or overexercising -  because - with hedonic rehabilitation, you've got to look at the long term, too.  That workout was awesome, but I had to stay in bed for 3 days after.   And we have to learn about that.  What helps, what doesn't; it's an experiment of N=1 because what works for me is different to what works for you.

Geez, am I still writing?  

Have a GREAT day (and see the sun!)

JC

Edited May 10, 2022 by JanCarol

[neurogenesis]

After the 50 mg colf turkey 1 month later: paranoia and delusions were highly illogical; where people are out there to get me ,they were very intense powerful ,and did not experience them before treatment

I was hidding under bed beacouse i thought there are cameras in my room,i was showing my midle finger to every device in the house couse i was deluaional that it s a hidden camera

My anxiety/fear was trough the roof when when hearing people outside my house couse i thought they were going to get me

The music would also feel too intense would make me overreact and made my hands move like the person who leading a symphony(don t know what it s called)

That s the reason i say it s psychosis supersensitivity couse my receptors were upregulated from 1 year of drugging

 

@JanCarol

 

[neurogenesis]

I only hope that this extreme state witch was caused by antipsychotics it s not permanent 

[neurogenesis]

@JanCarolit s definetly supersensitive neurotransmitters,i read what science says that why i call it like that ,the receptors blocked get s upregulated/supersensitive ,in this state once abruptly unblocked you get overdosed with neurotransmitters causing really bad psychological symtoms,also heart racing 

 

 

[Nelly]

On 5/8/2022 at 11:31 AM, neurogenesis said:

Hello i don t know if im able to do the brass monkey slide microtaper

When  cutting the pill and putting the small parts on the scale it dosen t measure them it s showing 0.000 g

However it can stil measure the cuted pill

@Altostrata @Nelly

Im sorry 

Im not sure what you mean? I crush and then weigh my daily dose of extended release, and split, and take twice per day.

[neurogenesis]

@JanCarol i kinda identified the problematic symtom of supersensivity psychosis...the symtom is a very strong identification with the irrational thoughts.i want to be able to create a separation betwen me and the irrational thoughts

 

smoking cannabis makes me more aware ,generally aware,it does make people more aware ,what does that mean?

It could potentially mean that you could be so much aware of the thoughts that neurotransmitter supersensitivity induces ,it could enable me to sit back and just oberve them as they come and go..instead of  automatically identifying with them and act and feel their FEAR   as it did happened last time i had a very strong identification with the delusions or whatever thought was crossing my mind....cannabis give me a HIGHER PERSPECTIVE/more awarness/it changes your point of view for the better...it could remove the anxiety from the delusional,paranoid thinking,not only that,it would probably make me so aware that i would be able to IDENTIFY  delusional thoughts...delusional thoughts could croos my mind and...i wouldn t care beacouse of awarness ,it could help me create a separation betwen the thoughts im experiencing and myself.it other words it could help me detach from the thoughts that would cross my mind thus creating a boundary,separation

the thoughts without the anxiety ...

It could enable me to think more properly,be aware of what s going on,remove anxiety,identify problems.

Cannabis really makes people  AWARE 

And as i said this awarness could  allow you to identify delusional thinking

On cannabis the state of mind is clearly diferent.

Imagine if cannabis could  remove fear anxiety and allow me to meditate on psychosis supersensivity...and trough the awarness see these symtoms just as passing thoughts that come and go

What a wonderful and briliant plant it could be

 

 

It s a big deal if cannabis would enable that

I always felt like i was much more aware on cannabis,and yes on higher dosage i had paranoia and panick atacks and yes it s risky ..

im just talking about ideeas that could help cope and win.im not saying that cannabis could cure me from neurotransmiter supersensitivity..im saying i could use it as a tool to cope by the awarness it provides.

Im not the only one who experienced awarness from cannabis.

[Shep]

@neurogenesisPlease knock off the talk about getting high to get you through withdrawal. It's wearing out the moderators. We really need you to focus on the symptoms that you have now. It's unclear whether your psychosis was brought on by the antipsychotic cold turkey or by an adverse reaction to sertraline mixed with what you describe in your signature - the "highest" strength of St. John's Wort. But the point is, you aren't experiencing psychosis right now and there's no reason to think you will as long as you do a slow micro-taper.

 

Right now you're in a really good place to taper slowly and make a full recovery without those types of intense symptoms. Your brain has already settled down and you're in complete control of your thoughts. This is good. This is very good. Please concentrate on that and not the negative "what if's." If you stick to a slow taper and don't monkey around with supplements, weed, or alcohol, there's no reason to think you won't come out of this golden.

 

Please start a drug and symptoms journal so we can get a good baseline report of how you're doing right now.

 

We need the time of day you take your drug, any supplements (I believe you said you currently aren't taking any, which is good - keep it simple and it's easier), and the dose. Write down any symptoms that show up throughout the day. Also, please write down how many hours you sleep each night.

 

Here are the instructions, along with an example:

 

  

On 9/27/2016 at 2:49 PM, Altostrata said:

In the course of discussion in your Introductions forum topic, you may be asked to keep notes on paper of your daily symptom pattern, including when you take your drugs, their dosages, and any symptoms. We ask this because there may be something we can do to reduce the symptoms.

 

What we need to see for every single day over several days is what symptoms you get before and after you take your drugs. If you're not taking any drugs and have withdrawal symptoms, we still need to see your symptom pattern throughout the day:

 

The time of day, dosage, and severity of symptoms are essential information. Include

 

- Time and dosage for all drugs taken throughout the day, psychiatric and non-psychiatric.

- Following each dose, note any symptoms. If you are having a reaction to the drug, it may take hours for a symptom to show up -- that's why we ask you to keep notes all day long.

- If you're not taking any drugs, your symptoms throughout the day.

- Your sleep pattern. Since so many drugs disturb sleep, if you find you're waking in the middle of the night, it could be from a drug you took earlier in the evening. If you're not taking any drugs, there may be ways you can improve your sleep.

And so forth. A diary, in chronological order, looking something like this:
 

Example:

DATE:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Shep
fixed typo

[JanCarol]

Hey NG - 

8 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

it s definetly supersensitive neurotransmitters,i read what science says that why i call it like that ,the receptors blocked get s upregulated/supersensitive ,in this state once abruptly unblocked you get overdosed with neurotransmitters

 

Right, but - what I was suggesting was that the name, the label - is less important than describing the experience.

 

The problem with labels is that they don't say a thing about the quality of your experience.

 

9 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

After the 50 mg colf turkey 1 month later: paranoia and delusions were highly illogical; where people are out there to get me ,they were very intense powerful ,and did not experience them before treatment

I was hidding under bed beacouse i thought there are cameras in my room,i was showing my midle finger to every device in the house couse i was deluaional that it s a hidden camera

My anxiety/fear was trough the roof when when hearing people outside my house couse i thought they were going to get me

The music would also feel too intense would make me overreact and made my hands move like the person who leading a symphony(don t know what it s called)

This is a much better description!
It is better to use descriptions than labels.

 

So now - Shep suggests it is not that bad, now, is that true?

What are your symptoms like, now?

 

7 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

smoking cannabis makes me more aware ,generally aware,it does make people more aware ,what does that mean?

Cannabis is a dissociative.  What does that mean?  It may slow your thoughts down enough to hear your heartbeat, breath and feelings - 

 

But - breathing and meditation can do that too.

 

Cannabis may separate you just enough from your ego / fear / pain body(Tolle calls it "pain body") to perceive differently, but again,

 

Breathing and meditation can do that too.

 

Without the risk.  Today the cannabis might be fine, but in withdrawal, every day, every week, every month is different until you are out of the woods.  What feels good today could throw you into a tailspin next week.  Heck, Vitamin B can throw you into a tailspin - something which is consciousness altering is very risky.

 

If you want to avoid your "neurotransmitter supersensitivity" symptoms, you need to ensure (no risks) that Humpty Dumpty doesn't fall off the wall.  Once that fall takes place, stabilisation becomes 100x harder.

 

After your recovery, experiment all you like.  Our advice is to abstain until you are no longer being adjusted by the psych drugs.

 

I hope you see the sun today! 

[neurogenesis]

@Shep i take the quetiapine at 11 :00 morning,and 9:15 at night

The dosage im taking is unknown beacouse i reduced aprox 1 percent from the pill's weight

Each pill has 100 mg(taken twice a day) and each pill is weighing 266 mg on the scale

I removed 3 mg off pill s weight from the morning pilll and 3 mg from the night pill

So i think im down to 198 mg

I take nothing else

I driink green tea

Vaping nicotine

(There was one day when i drank a no caffeine energy drink based on minerals and vitamins ,and experienced a reaction very bad one (feeling like im falling off mixed with passing out)

 

 

[Shep]

1 hour ago, neurogenesis said:

Each pill has 100 mg(taken twice a day) and each pill is weighing 266 mg on the scale

I removed 3 mg off pill s weight from the morning pilll and 3 mg from the night pill

So i think im down to 198 mg

 

Is 266 the weight in grams (not mg)? Please let us know exactly what the scale states for your pill.

 

Nelly brought up the fact that she crushes her pills before weighing. This is important and I'm afraid you may not be getting an accurate weight with your scale. If you haven't already seen this, please watch this video on using a scale, including how to crush up the pills:

 

Micro tapering Benzodiazapine, Klonopin  video (9.5 minutes)

 

1 hour ago, neurogenesis said:

(There was one day when i drank a no caffeine energy drink based on minerals and vitamins ,and experienced a reaction very bad one (feeling like im falling off mixed with passing out)

 

This is a definite sign that your nervous system is destabilized and you'll want to avoid cannabis and any other drug and alcohol for a long time. Your nervous system is very fragile right now.

 

1 hour ago, neurogenesis said:

Vaping nicotine

 

Are you on a set daily schedule for this? Please vape at the exact same time(s) of the day and with the exact same amount. Nicotine increases dopamine and it's also a stimulant, so treat vaping nicotine as you would any other drug. Be consistent so you don't confuse fluctuating nicotine doses with quetiapine withdrawal.

 

What are your symptoms? How much are you sleeping at night?

 

[JanCarol]

In PM, Neurogenesis asks (shared with permission):

Quote

I wanted to ask you what did you mean by "

.  The ruts of thought which drive those feelings in, make them "sticky."  (hint:  this is where meditative practice is useful)"

At the moment im trying to practice meditation,finding ways to stop the mind ,put a break on it,there are queations like "what is my next thought? What is lacking now?who s this thoughts belong to?me!who am i?(observe the the pause in your mind taking place from asking these questions)

 

At the moment im trying to prepare myself to cope with psychotic events by aquiring skills trough meditation key questions and hopefully other things

My objective to arrive at stoping the mind,and create a separation betwen my body and mind in case of a psychotic event and eventualy being able to cope with it trough meditation

 

 

So - we have feelings.  Feelings are often bodily interpretations of perceptions of our senses.  We see a near accident in traffic, our body reacts with fear or a surge of adrenaline.  Feelings are very natural.

When the brain / mind gets ahold of feelings, it starts putting judgement on things (emotions, putting names to the sensations, such as "fear" or "anger").  This is the obsession / rumination part.  You might obsess on what you could have said, or that "they are talking about me," etc.  You might ruminate on "If only I'd . . . . "  But the moment of feeling is gone - these repetitive thoughts become habits.  "Sticky," which means that once you get into the repetition, it is hard to shake the emotion.  It keeps reinforcing itself.

 

When we obsess or ruminate in the same way repeatedly, over a period of time, it builds a rut in our brain connectome - a pathway (call it a neurotransmitter pathway, if you want).  And like an animal trail, the repeated use of that thing becomes more than habit, it becomes the easiest path to walk.

 

And example of this is suicidal ideation.  It is one of my personal default ruts.  When things go bad, I fall into this rut.  Sometimes all it takes is a broken fingernail or being out of butter - and that's it.  Like the straw that broke the camel's back, and I fall back into the rut of "I'm done, I don't want to do this anymore."

But I'm not suicidal.  This is just a rut that I fall into because I've walked that path so many times in my life.  So I now recognise that rut (and the Depression/despair rut, and the woulda/shoulda/coulda regret rut) and can tell my brain, like with the demons, "You've been here before, you'll come back again, let's have a cuppa tea."

 

It is so much easier to build the negative ruts, because when we were primitive humans, these things helped us survive.  "Fire hot! Not touch!"  We developed superstitions, so that when a cloud passes in front of the moon, we shiver with superstitious fear.  In primitive humans, fear helped us survive.  So the negative ruts are more easily reinforced (feeding the Dark Wolf).

It's a cycle:  feeling + emotion/judgement + rumination/obsession = more emotion/judgement which then turns into more rumination.  (notice the feeling doesn't repeat.  Just the judgement of the original feeling). 

 

So how to stop the cycle of rumination?  The first key is to recognise it.

 

As for extreme states - if you find you are struggling with paranoia, you can ask yourself:  Is this useful?  (sometimes, it may be)  Or is it making my life smaller?

ACT (Acceptance and Committment Therapy) talks about moving towards things which are growth based and expansive, and away from the things which contract and make you & your life smaller.

If you are hiding in your room, you are moving away from growth.  If you are lifting weights, you are likely moving towards growth (unless it becomes obsessive).

 

Meditation isn't about stopping thoughts or even quieting the mind.

It's about opening and expanding the mind so that it is larger than the thoughts.  It's about expanding your trust so that your heart is larger than your feelings.  It is resting, and allowing the thoughts to come and go.  Like watching the cars on a train as it travels by, you don't want to jump on each train car - just observe it.  Don't try to control the train, that's impossible (it is your brain's job to produce thoughts).  

As you watch the thoughts, and watch the thoughts, and practice watching the thoughts, you will find, over time, and with practice, that they become less pressing, less intrusive.  By accepting them, you are able to let them go (it's when you grab onto them that they become obsession/rumination).

 

Another image I have used is clouds.  You can't control thoughts, anymore than you can control clouds.  They come and go as they will, doing what they do.  (The Sound of Music has a line:  "How do you catch a cloud, and pin it down?")

 

That's when you start to notice that after observing the thoughts - your mind has clearer skies!  Observe, Accept, Let go.  This practice gives the thoughts the freedom to be released.

 

The difference between me and a zen master, is that the zen master still thinks, but he has observed so many thoughts that his thoughts are more efficient.  He has traced the thought generating mechanism to its source in the brain, and manages to pay attention only to the thoughts which are useful.

 

He still has clouds in his skies, but they are clearer, brighter, and more likely to be productive.

That was a very deep question, and I hope I've addressed what you were asking, in some small way.

 

I hope you see the sun today!

[neurogenesis]

@Shep the pill now weighs 0.269 g 

 

[neurogenesis]

@Shep when the pill is crushed like that in the video,it will have imediate effect from the entire dose at once,and im afraid it will make my heart race!

(From time to time i get ocassional heart racing from the quetiapine pill form)

 

[Shep]

19 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

@Shep when the pill is crushed like that in the video,it will have imediate effect from the entire dose at once,and im afraid it will make my heart race!

(From time to time i get ocassional heart racing from the quetiapine pill form)

 

If you have the extended release formula, it doesn't matter if you crush it or cut it with a pill cutter or use a nail file. Once you break it open, it dumps the entire dose at once. So you're already getting the "dose dump".

 

If you were used to the extended release formula, it could cause some upticks in symptoms until you get used to it, but you're already dosing twice a day, and that's the best way to keep the quetiapine level steady in your system.

 

You may want to reach out to your doctor for the regular release formula if you're using the extended release.

 

20 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

@Shep the pill now weighs 0.269 g 

 

 

Thanks, NG. How much does the amount that you take weigh?

 

[neurogenesis]

28 minutes ago, Shep said:

If you have the extended release formula, it doesn't matter if you crush it or cut it with a pill cutter or use a nail file. Once you break it open, it dumps the entire dose at once. So you're already getting the "dose dump".

 

If you were used to the extended release formula, it could cause some upticks in symptoms until you get used to it, but you're already dosing twice a day, and that's the best way to keep the quetiapine level steady in your system.

 

You may want to reach out to your doctor for the regular release formula if you're using the extended release.

 

 

Thanks, NG. How much does the amount that you take weigh?

 

When weighing the pill the result it s not always the same sometimes its showing 0.266 g another times is 0.267,other times it can be 0.265

Most of the times the pill weighs 0.266g so i remove with a nail file down to 0.263g

 

Im using the standard release version.

 

On week nr 2 i will remove another 3 mg of pill s weight ,witch means i will be down to 0.260g of pills weight

The video you sent is very informative

Im thinking of trying that way

[neurogenesis]

On 5/12/2022 at 1:13 PM, Shep said:

 

Thank you shep for thinking that im in good place to taper slowly and make a complete recovery without the intense symtoms (i feel so hopeless sometimes,i begin to cry)

 

Today the night pill weighed 0.270 ,i reduced it to 264 (witch seems like a double reduction to arrive at the same number, i had to reduce 6mg instead of 3mg to arrive at the same number on the scale witch is 263..

So im really considering crushing them and doing it like in the video 

I have to mention that the pill has a coat!

 

 

 

 

[neurogenesis]

Is it possible that below certain dosages quetiapine stop afecting dopamine serotonine,choline,and just afecting histamine and adrenergic?

https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/07/the_most_important_article_on.html

Don t know if it s true what it says in the article.

 

[OldDodgy]

@neurogenesis

 

You may have a point. 
I find 6mg more sedating than when I was on 25. And I get less nightmares on lower dose. 
OD 

[Shep]

19 hours ago, neurogenesis said:

Is it possible that below certain dosages quetiapine stop afecting dopamine serotonine,choline,and just afecting histamine and adrenergic?

 

At doses around 150 mg, quetiapine affects histamine and not dopamine. Many people find that as they get under 200 mg and transition from a dopamine drug to a histamine drug, they need to go very slowly.

 

As OldDodgy mentioned, you'll find the lower doses more sedating. This is a good thing, especially for those having trouble sleeping on the higher doses.

 

On 5/13/2022 at 4:58 PM, neurogenesis said:

Today the night pill weighed 0.270 ,i reduced it to 264 (witch seems like a double reduction to arrive at the same number, i had to reduce 6mg instead of 3mg to arrive at the same number on the scale witch is 263..

So im really considering crushing them and doing it like in the video 

I have to mention that the pill has a coat!

 

You mentioned being on the extended release, so when you break the coating (whether to crush or cut it up), it's no longer extended release. This is okay because you're dosing twice a day. Let us know how you do crushing up the pill and weighing it.

 

What do you mean by "seems like a double reduction to arrive at the same number"?

[OldDodgy]

@Shep

 

Thanks as ever for your input.  
 

I hope folk use antihistamines with caution for sleep. I was given promethazine by my doc and suffered immediately from dire early morning negative thoughts. It’s used as a night sedative in our mental health units. 
 

Could you comment on whether you have come across this in your experience.?  Thanks 

 

OD

[Shep]

3 minutes ago, OldDodgy said:

I hope folk use antihistamines with caution for sleep

 

Wise advice, OD. We don't recommend adding in antihistamines. They generally create paradoxical reactions (see Antihistamines for withdrawal insomnia).

 

Please follow up on your own intro thread if you have questions. That way all your information is in one place and we don't derail Neurogenesis' thread.

 

 

[neurogenesis]

Speaking of antihistamine now i remember that right after i cold turkeyed the 50 mg quetiapine,i started using loratadine for  skin itching!

@Shep

[neurogenesis]

9 hours ago, Shep said:

 

At doses around 150 mg, quetiapine affects histamine and not dopamine. Many people find that as they get under 200 mg and transition from a dopamine drug to a histamine drug, they need to go very slowly.

 

As OldDodgy mentioned, you'll find the lower doses more sedating. This is a good thing, especially for those having trouble sleeping on the higher doses.

 

 

You mentioned being on the extended release, so when you break the coating (whether to crush or cut it up), it's no longer extended release. This is okay because you're dosing twice a day. Let us know how you do crushing up the pill and weighing it.

 

What do you mean by "seems like a double reduction to arrive at the same number"?

Some pills weigh 0.266g other 0.269g

So in order to arrive at 233 i had to reduce  6mg from the 0.269g and 3mg from 0.266(this is an issue )

 

Also Im NOT using extended release,and it still has a coat(pink)while the inside of the pill is white

 

Also if under the dosage 150 mg quetiapine switches from dopamine to histamine;

 wouldn t the risk of supersensitivity psychosis(SP) should be zero  if someone is under 150 mg quetiapine?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by neurogenesis