AnnaRetlaw: New here

[AnnaRetlaw]

Hi

Going through h*** with protracted withdrawal. If I would have known what I know now I would never have taken this road. I am hoping some day it will have been worth it but nog yet.

i am losing friends by my rages and can’t stand most people. I don’t care but this isn’t me. Easy to fly off the handle. Put on administrative leave due to meltdown at work.

Tremors, shakes intrusive thoughts and very ill if I physically exert myself. 
How long until there is light? I have heard of waves and windows but so far very infrequent windows. Maybe half day every 10 days. 
Anyone else regret starting this journey but too late to reinstate? 12 months since start of taper. Was off meds March 2022. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by AnnaRetlaw
Date wrong

[getofflex]

Hello, and welcome to SA.  We are a volunteer-run community of people who have been or are getting off of psychiatric drugs.  If feel the same way as you - if I had known what getting off these drugs would entail, I never would have gone on them.  

 

Question: Have you seen any improvement, at all, since you got off the drugs a year ago?  

 

Have you been on any drugs or supplements since you got off cipralex and Wellbutrin in Feb 2022?  If so, please list these too. 

 

Here is some important information about how these drugs actually work.  This explains why we get symptoms from going off of these medications.

 

How Psychiatric Drugs Remodel Your Brain

 

 

This helps you understand what withdrawal syndrome is: 

 

Video on Recovery from Psych Drugs

 

Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

 

Here is a link with checklists of common WD symptoms: 

 

Dr Joseph Glenmullen Withdrawal Symptom Checklists

 

 

Here are some techniques to cope with symptoms: 

 

Non Drug Ways to Cope with Withdrawal Symptoms

 

Stability is really important when we are tapering off psych meds.  Please read the link about stability:

 

Keep It Simple, Slow, and Stable

 

 

We don't suggest many supplements, but 2 that many of us find helpful are magnesium and omega-3 fish oil. Here are the links for info about those. It is suggested to add one at a time, and start with a low dose to see how it affects you. 

Magnesium

Omega 3 Fish Oil

 

Reinstatement is very risky after a year.  Please read this link to understand more.  

 

About Reinstating and Stabilizing to Reduce Withdrawal Symptoms

 

Learning and using non drug coping techniques would be very beneficial.  These skills will serve you well for other issues besides withdrawal in the future.  

 

Have you been using alcohol, or other mind altering substances?  This can further destabilize a nervous system in withdrawal.  You did a really fast taper of 2 drugs in a month, and it can take a very long time for your nervous system to recover from this.  However, the good news is, assuming proper self care, you will eventually recover from this.  This link goes into all the variables that affect recovery: 

 

How Long to Recover From Withdrawal

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by getofflex

[AnnaRetlaw]

Thanks so much. Not much improvement. The little I see is because I don’t exercise:( If I exercise I am i bed for days. I mean 90 minutes of XC skiiing =4 days of sheer exhaustion and intrusive thoughts, tremors and flu like feelings. 

Last summer I was in bed for 2 weeks after exercise but that was after a full weekend of intense exercise. So it’s difficult to compare. 
I don’t really have windows. My “windows” are only hours,until something triggers me and I am in a full blown rage. 
I take fish oil, magnesium and Amino acids

[AnnaRetlaw]

Hi 

Has anyone else been diagnosed with Chronic fatigue going through withdrawal. Is it really CFS or something that will dissipate once withdrawal is over?

Thanks

[getofflex]

Previous post moved to your intro topic to keep your history all in one place.  Please post questions and discussion about your situation in this one thread, to avoid confusion and duplication of efforts.  Thank you.  

 

Yes, I for one have definitely experienced this, and still do on a lot of days.  I personally believe that it will resolve eventually.  

On 2/9/2023 at 7:51 AM, AnnaRetlaw said:

( If I exercise I am i bed for days. I mean 90 minutes of XC skiiing =4 days of sheer exhaustion and intrusive thoughts, tremors and flu like feelings. 

Last summer I was in bed for 2 weeks after exercise but that was after a full weekend of intense exercise.

This is very common for a destabilized nervous system.  I have the very same thing.  A week ago, I went on a hike for an hour, and then the next day, did about a 3 mile walk.  I definitely had an uptick in symptoms this past week.  You may be able to do gentle exercise, like walking outside.  This is because exercise causes our bodies to release adrenaline, which is activating.  Adrenaline tends to cause our symptoms to flare up.  

 

It's good to hear that you have had some improvement.  If you are very gentle with yourself - avoid alcohol and mind altering substances, don't overstimulate yourself by too much activity, eat healthy, get plenty of fluids, do natural things to calm your nervous system, etc., you will eventually recover from this.  The keys are time, and patience.  Walking outside has been very helpful to me.  

 

You did 2 very fast tapers a year ago simultaneously, which is pretty hard on the nervous system.  

 

Too Fast Tapers

[AnnaRetlaw]

So sorry you are suffering! A counsellor I am seeing has a daughter with chronic fatigue and knows two people whose symptoms have ceased after starting dynamic neural retraining system. Go to retrainingthebrain.com I just started the free trial. It mostly talks about how it works . It was created by a woman who became homeless from chemical sensitivities that affected her brain .

The founder is Annie Hopper. She did a YouTube video “ retrain your brain to heal.

I have been in hell for a year and this is the only thing that has given me hope.
Our brains have been damaged and this system is supposed to help rewire and repair. An antidepressant withdrawal coach says she recommends it for her patients. 
I am amazed you can work. I had to go off work in August. I am in rough shape too. 
Good luck. 
Maybe take time off work to heal 

 

[AnnaRetlaw]

Sorry for your hell!!!
I just heard of a therapy that I want to share with other sufferers. My psychologist and an antidepressant withdrawal coach recommended it. 
You can also watch a YouTube video by Annie Hopper called “rewire your brain to heal”. 
Go to retrainingthebrain.com

Its called Dynamic Neural retraining system. There is a free trial with success stories. Annie Hopper the founder because homeless because of chemical sensitivities of the brain among other things. Please look into it.

High success rates with mold toxicity, chronic fatigue, chemical sensitivities. Lots of hope in the free trial with success stories. I am going to do the course with weekly group sessions then some 1:1 counseling later if needed. 

Wishing you health and hope.

Anna 

[Aurorax]

6 hours ago, AnnaRetlaw said:

High success rates with mold toxicity, chronic fatigue, chemical sensitivities. Lots of hope in the free trial with success stories. I am going to do the course with weekly group sessions then some 1:1 counseling later if needed. 

 

I’m sorry but this is just people trying to make money on your suffering. There is no research backing up these claims. Their website is a classic example of manipulation.

 

Under ”scientific research” you find a study from 2019 of 102 people. If you scroll to the end of the page you find a note saying ”This study has been submitted for publication but not yet published.”
Yeah, I wonder why...

 

Aurorax

 

[AnnaRetlaw]

Wow! It would seem like you would be desperate enough to be open to healing. My counsellors daughter has two friends who had chronic fatigue and no longer have symptoms after doing this therapy. 
Each to his own.

[Onmyway]

24 minutes ago, AnnaRetlaw said:

Wow! It would seem like you would be desperate enough to be open to healing. My counsellors daughter has two friends who had chronic fatigue and no longer have symptoms after doing this therapy. 
Each to his own.

@AnnaRetlaw,

please refrain from posting spam on members' profiles. You are welcome to post about this on your introduction post. As you will see @Auroraxhas healed so they are not in fact desperate but I suspect you knew that and you wanted to catch desperate people. 

 

You are welcome to try the program and update us with your experience. 

Here is a link on limbic retraining that our members have tried before. 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/2761-neuroplasticity-and-limbic-retraining/page/4/#comment-429601

OMW

Edited February 13, 2023 by Onmyway

[Aurorax]

53 minutes ago, Onmyway said:

Here is a link on limbic retraining that our members have tried before. 

 

The problem with judging whether therapies/supplements work for wd is that wd heals with time. If I had decided five years ago to see if I could get better by balancing on my left foot while imitating a seagull, I could have come back here to tell you all how helpful that was. I'm ok now, see? I could call it the Seagull Therapy and charge you $575 for the complete program. Others suffering from wd have tried it, too, and they are all getting better and better! Research is on the way! It's just not published yet!

 

1 hour ago, AnnaRetlaw said:

Each to his own.

 

I'm just sick of seeing people harmed by drugs waste their money on therapies without scientific validity. Put your money in an index fund instead so you can enjoy them when you have recovered.

 

And you will recover. Without the "limbic retraining". Or the Seagull Therapy. Believe it or not.

 

Aurorax

[Onmyway]

Hi @Aurorax, 

I fully agree with you in my disdain for those who abuse suffering people to make money off of them especially with unproven methods. Having said that, for things like that we allow posts with disclaimers - often the results are actually not what people expected - they are not miracles and those opinions are important on these threads. We even have a thread on ECT and Ketamine (mostly horrible results).

 

In some cases these tools are the only things that give desperate people hope. And even if it works as a placebo, it's fine as far as I am concerned. There are tons of people here who spend money on naturopaths or functional medicine doctors whose fees make me believe they are no different from con artists. We can't stop people from going to them, we can just warn them and sometimes clear information (often negative) is useful. 

 

OMW

[Aurorax]

Yes, it’s important to allow open discussions as people seek out these therapies anyway.

 

44 minutes ago, Onmyway said:

In some cases these tools are the only things that give desperate people hope.

 

Agree, and the search for a miracle cure can keep people going until the cure is no longer needed.

 

Aurorax

[AnnaRetlaw]

Wow! This is crazy! I believe my intent was to help, not harm. I am not making money off this or anything  else. Perhaps instead of  coming down on someone, look at the motive of their post. 

[Altostrata]

Everybody, please simmer down.

 

There are a jillion miracle cures on the InterWebs, each with its advocates. People are always posting on this site about one or another, as the fads ripple through social media.

 

Given the powerful placebo effect, anything can work for someone, and if it does, that's wonderful -- but miracle cures seldom are consistently helpful, and some are simply scams (but still good placebos!). 

 

Keeping this in mind, we would do well to take every such claim with a grain of salt.

 

@AnnaRetlaw you're welcome to post about this in your own topic, after you try it. Thank you.

[Shep]

@AnnaRetlaw, the above Dynamic Neural Retraining System (DNRS) posts have been moved off the success story forum and placed here in your intro/update thread.

 

Anna, feel free to write about DNRS here in your own thread here and in the thread for Neuroplasticity and limbic retraining. You'll see these programs, including the one you're posting about, have mixed reviews. As you'll find out during your journey to heal, there are many treatments, supplements, cure-alls, etc. that come up, but so far, we don't know anyway through this except time, self care, eating as healthy as possible, and limiting stress as much as possible. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Shep
fixed typo

[AnnaRetlaw]

Hi there 

I am struggling with depression, (PAWS?) irritability and generally miserable. My GP, counsellor and sister have all suggested I get back on meds. I tell them I was just as depressed on meds and that what I am experiencing is part of withdrawal.
This is true, however in the past I could use exercise to boost my mood. Now exercise causes increased withdrawal symptoms including  exhaustion for days, increased depression and irritability. 
Sometimes I think they are right but then there was a reason I took this path. I need to find out what my life could be like without the meds. So far nothing to brag about:) Its a mental tug of war sometimes. It is difficult to get support when ppl think you are causing your own misery.

Question: If anyone has experienced the same how did you get your self through this mental mind game? Has anyone succumbed to this pressure and gone back on meds only to regret it? 
Thanks, Anna

 

PS moderators: I couldn’t find a similar 🪡 

[JanCarol]

Hey AnnaRetlaw - I wish I had a dime for every time that a GP or family of wanted an SA member to "go back on the meds" (really, they are not "meds" but drugs.).

 

Good onya for wanting to persist in the face of withdrawal symptoms.  Your story is similar to mine in that - I was unhappy on the drugs, so why not be drug free?  What has resulted is that I'm more human than I have been in decades.  Sure - I still struggle, but my struggles are mine - not complicated by chemical interference.

 

Keep in mind that neurolimbic training (or any other number of therapies) may be excellent for a number of emotional regulation conditions - however - they are not necessarily designed to deal with the chemical effects of neuro-emotions and the amplification of symptoms caused by withdrawal from these drugs.  In my personal experience, I've found that therapies and practices help *before* the taper to get you some coping skills for while you are tapering.  It's extremely difficult to learn to meditate while in distress.  Better that you learn the practice (or therapy) before you start tapering.

 

But you're beyond that now, into withdrawal symptoms.  Don't hurry to call it "PAWS" - you're still only a year out.  If you still suffer in 5 years time, maybe then you can call it PAWS.  Right now, it's just normal withdrawal - your 4 week fast taper did not account for the time it takes for all of your systems to heal.

 

I'll post my "Road Works" post - all of these things take time, and each system requires 3 weeks to heal.  These drugs interfere with so many systems, that when you fast taper, the systems stack up and now you are in a backlog of healing.  Here's the "Road Works:"
 

Quote

I really like Bubble's phrase:  "Brain is closed down for repairs."  I'd like to expand on that a bit - parts of your brain are closed down.  Imagine very complicated road works with about 25 intersections coming together.  This week, the traffic lights are shut down, and you need a cop to manage the intersection.  When that is repaired, well, maybe they need to re-do the shoulders, so they can divert traffic onto them for later when the lanes are being repaired.  Then there's the repairing of the lanes - it doesn't all happen at once.  Sometimes they need to rip up the old tarmac, change all the drainage routes, relocate the services for electricity and plumbing, get down to the foundation, and re-grade it, lay new gravel, then steel rebar, pouring concrete foundation, then laying the asphalt.  Sometimes you will go for 5 months, and the road is still closed, but you can't see what they are doing to it!  Each phase requires time to set and dry.  Then you can paint the lines on it, and go to another part of the intersection - perhaps one of the other incoming roads needs the same treatment.  Perhaps there are exit ramps and roundabouts and flyover lanes that need repair.  Each of which takes time.

 

Now imagine the millions of networks in your brain healing - they don't just, "heal" and be done.  It's a construction process, like Bubble was saying.  Road works for the brain. 

 

Just my way of saying, be patient with yourself.  It might be the tarmac this week - but the lines aren't on the road and you're disoriented.  Maybe the signals are crossed at the intersections, or the signs are removed or there are detours.  Be gentle with yourself, be patient with yourself.  It's a complex process, and the gentler you are, the more easily you will heal.  It does no good to shake your fist and yell at the construction guys while they are doing their work!  So just wave (lol, wave!) at the worker, declare to yourself, "This is yet another symptom of withdrawal," and drive carefully past the obstacle.

When you are disregulated, usually the best "cure" (or healing) is time & stillness.  Patience & self kindness.  Holding is hard work!

I hope you see the sun today.

[Onmyway]

Hi @AnnaRetlaw, 

just wanted to offer some tips on how to use the site better and get more out of it. 

Each member gets ONE intro thread where they ask questions about their situation/symptoms etc. and updates everyone else about what is happening to them. There is a link to your thread in your signature. When you click on that link, scroll to the bottom of the last page and you can add any new updates or questions there. A moderator is usually going to come and answer your questions. If not, you can tag a moderator but pls use tagging judiciously and do not tag moderators that have requested not to be tagged. 

 

You can post in the Symptoms and Self Care forum as well but before you create new threads please look up whether there is already an existing thread for that symptom. You can do that by going to the search function and looking for the symptom name within that forum. You can start new topics in that forum only if one already doesn't exist. It would be very inefficient if there are 15 topics on insomnia or tremors or sadness etc. 

 

You can post in the Finding Meaning Forums as much as you want as well but pls use the same rule - if a topic exists, pls add to it rather than duplicating it. The topic may not be exactly the same as what you are asking about - still use the existing topic. I.e. if there is a thread about insomnia but not specifically about falling asleep fast, still post in the insomnia thread. 

 

You are also welcome to post on other members' threads. When you do that, please try to keep it about that member rather than an external topic or your own case. You can share your own case and symptoms but you are 'in someone else's house' so to speak and try to be a good guest. If you interact with others on their threads they are likely to come and talk to you on yours as well. That can be very meaningful in terms of support. 

 

Hope this clarifies things and pls feel free to ask questions here. 

Hope you are feeling better, 
OMW

[AnnaRetlaw]

PAWS

 

Hi

I spoke to an “expert” yesterday on post acute withdrawal depression. She doesn’t seem to think I should still be depressed a year after going off meds. Have been advised to go back on “something “. 
How do I know if I am experiencing recurring depression or if it’s withdrawal?

I haven’t been able to find answers to this, or I wouldn’t be posting.

Thanks!

Edited March 18, 2023 by Shep
added title after merging from another thread

[Shep]

@AnnaRetlaw I merged your post into your intro/update thread.

 

Please continue to post here in your thread so all of your information is in one place. Your intro thread is in your signature. 

 

On 3/16/2023 at 3:11 AM, AnnaRetlaw said:

How do I know if I am experiencing recurring depression or if it’s withdrawal?

 

This may help:

 

Withdrawal or relapse? Or something else?

 

Also, see:

 

On 8/21/2016 at 10:35 PM, scallywag said:

How do I know it's withdrawal and not relapse?

 

Typically, in withdrawal symptoms such as melancholia, anxiety, and disorientation come in intense waves, sometimes only a few minutes long, which differentiates them from relapse of a psychological condition.

In withdrawal, symptoms are much more intense than the original psychological condition. People suffering from withdrawal often say things like

- "This doesn't feel like my depression."
- "I've never had symptoms like this before."
- "I feel very weird and not like myself."
- "I can't feel my feelings."

It's up to you to decide whether your body and brain are behaving "normally" as they did before you tried medication, or if you are feeling differently. No one else, not even a doctor, can determine this.

 

Also see this post.

 

 

[AnnaRetlaw]

Hi there 

I haven’t bee Here for a while. I am too sick to review all the rules and an email from a moderator( all emails) have disappeared from my inbox. So if this is posted in the wrong place please forgive me. 
My dilemma. I have had a huge huge struggle with exercise intolerance, but the pattern is predictable,, I go for a bike ride or ski or whatever for 90 mins, a day or 2 later I am crazy depressed , intrusive thoughts, shaking, hot, sweats, crying. Gradually over 5-6 days I come out of it, stabilize think I am recovered then a week or 2 later I try again ( sports are/ were) my life. 
Six days ago I went on a 2 hour paddle board ( I have a seat so I sit down) The weather was extremely hot. The exercise was light as it was a calm lake. Total time out was 2 hours including just floating time. But was in the sun for 3 - 31/2 hours 

The paddle boarding was Saturday. Monday I reinstated 20 mg of Wellbutrin. Instead of recovering I have gotten worse; extreme fatigue, dizziness, abdominal pains with constipation. My mouth has been 10x more dry than before. I have been extremely irritable, restless, with tremors. I have had to sedate myself with large doses of Inositol. I have been beyond exhausted. 
 

I took the 20 mg for 4 days. Today I took 10 mg. I think I might have to drop it. I thought it would help with withdrawal post exercise.

 

 I s this what it means that reinstating can make things worse? I was really really hoping it would help. I was directed to start the Wellbutrin by a psychiatrist who works in withdrawal. I have an appointment with him Monday but looking for some input now. 
Thanks

[Altostrata]

Hello, @AnnaRetlaw Please add your updates to this topic, your own Introductions topic.

 

We urge people to use common sense when managing their withdrawal journey. Antidepressants are known to cause heat intolerance. If you find strenuous exercise makes you feel sick, dial back on the intensity of your exercise.

 

Otherwise, it's not the reinstatement, you're making your own problems.

[AnnaRetlaw]

I did dial back on the intensity, which I chose to do a low intensity paddle vs mountain biking, which I would prefer. 
 

I went mountain biking in 30C weather a few weeks ago. ( The weather app said 24 and it was in the shade so I thought it would be ok.)  When I went to the car in the afternoon the temperature read 30 C so It was way hotter than the app said. I didn’t suffer as much then as I did this past week.

 

What I experienced this week was 10x worse than after mountain biking in the same heat. 
 

I lived in Texas I rode horses in 100 degree weather, and was on antidepressants, with no issue. This is the first I have ever heard that antidepressants cause heat intolerance. I have only noticed it since I went off meds. 
 

I also snowboard in -10 degree weather and still had  severe withdrawals. ( had to give it up) 
 

 The side effects this week were the same as when I first started  Wellbutrin and it was different than the “normal “ withdrawals I go through after exercise. ( with or without heat)

 

It was exercise/ heat induced symptoms ( I chose a light exercise to avoid this and I  normally have a high heat tolerance) plus more intense, new symptoms such as dizziness and way worse tremors. It was because of the new, more intense symptoms I attributed to reinstatement.

 

I try to use common sense by giving up biking to do lighter paddle board exercise. 
I am just really struggling to accept the “ new normal “. 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by AnnaRetlaw
More clarity

[Altostrata]

What do you mean by reinstatement? Please update your signature.

[AnnaRetlaw]

What I mean by reinstate is Adding a small dose of the last medication I was on hoping to relieve some of the withdrawal symptoms , until I stabilize and then taper off of that small dose. I will update my signature once I decide whether or not I’m going to stay on it. For now I’m not sure until I speak to my doctor next week.

[Altostrata]

What are your current symptoms that you believe are withdrawal symptoms?

[AnnaRetlaw]

Tremors, hot/ flushed, irritable(worse than usual)dizzy, emotional, tingling in the feet and legs. Restless, dry mouth, jerky legs. Usually after I exercise,( harder than paddle board) in the heat I recover in 5-6 days. 
This is day 7 and I feel worse than ever. 
I think some of it is side effects of Wellbutrin, because everything is amplified. 
Today I went paddle boarding with my friends but I let them paddle board and I sat in the shade. Living the dream. 
Oh well, can only hope for a better future. 

[Altostrata]

Is it very hot where you are? Did you feel worse after this outing?

 

Are you taking Wellbutrin? Please update your signature.

[AnnaRetlaw]

86 F.

Ok will try to figure it out.

[AnnaRetlaw]

I can’t figure out how to update it. Need help please 

[Altostrata]

You may have heat intolerance from going off escitalopram and bupropion.

 

Edit your drug and withdrawal history in your signature

[AnnaRetlaw]

Yes, probably. Signature updated

[Altostrata]

Which would you rather do, stop exercising so strenuously in the heat or take more drugs?

 

You set yourself back when you overdo it.

[AnnaRetlaw]

Hi there 

I often heard that it’s too late to reinstate after several months. I recently was in contact with a doctor in the UK who specializes in withdrawal from anti-depressants. He said I received misinformation , that you can reinstate up to two years off of your meds.

I have been off Wellbutrin for a year. He reinstated me at 20 mg for two weeks and then went up to 37.5 mg. He said I might feel worse before I feel better. I forgot to ask him how long it will take before I feel better if this is going to work. I don’t have anymore money to talk to him again. I reinstated the 37.5 mg 6 days ago. 
The only time I get symptoms as when exert myself physically so I have yet to test it out. I’m afraid to exercise.

Can anybody tell me how long it should take before I notice the effects of the reinstatement for exercise intolerance?

He said I could feel worse for a few weeks before I feel better. That seems to indicate that it might take a weeks?

Thanks

[Altostrata]

On 8/12/2023 at 2:21 PM, AnnaRetlaw said:

The only time I get symptoms as when exert myself physically so I have yet to test it out. I’m afraid to exercise.

 

The only time you go unpleasant symptoms was when you exert yourself, so you reinstated 37.5mg bupropion? For what purpose?

 

DO NOT START ANY MORE NEW TOPICS