Athena: journey through depression and antidepressants ...

[Altostrata]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmodium

 

http://wholeworldbotanicals.com/herbal_desmodium

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21530632

 

Please let us know what else you find.

[Hudgens]

For me the wd's didn't even start until I reach 5mgs. That slowed me way down, it took another 13 months after that and I've still got one more drop to go before the end of my tappering.

[Athena]

I decided to not try Desmodium. Went to a herborist (?)... a specialist in herbs and plants. She told me the liver "detoxication" wasn't the best thing to do while still in withdrawal process but only once it's over. She made me a cocktail of herbs for teas, which helps calming and soothing my nervous system. Along with unicist homeopathy, it helps! Not perfect, but more energy and better sleep.

 

Hang in there everyone! It does get better.

 

Athena

[Altostrata]

That sounds like reasonable advice from the herbalist.

[Athena]

Hi everyone,

 

I just received results from blood tests, and I have anemia and hypothyroidism. Do you think that those conditions can be related to  withdrawal? I used to have a very slight hypothyroidism, but it was well treated with a medication and had been stable for many years. Now it has become worse, and the anemia is new. I guess those two problems explain in part why my energy is so low... But I really wonder if they are connected to the decrase in my antidepressant medication. Have any of you experienced these health problems while in AD withdrawal?

 

As always, thank you so much for your help. You guys do a wonderful work, and I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we are soooo grateful! By the way, I encourage everyone who have not donated yet to do so!! A little amount X  thousands of people = helping those who help us!

 

Thank you,

 

Athena

[mammaP]

Hi Athena, hypothyroid and anaemia would make you feel unwell but I have no idea if they

would be caused by drugs or withdrawal. It would not surprise me if they did have something to do with it

but I can blame EVERYTHING on drugs! 

 

Have you got new meds for the thyroid and anaemia? I hope they are rectified easily for you and you feel

better soon. 

[Athena]

Hi MammaP, thank you for your input and kind words.

Yes I have a new medication to take for hypothyroid, won't be a problem, but still one more med!!

It's a bit discouraging for me because I have tried SO HARD to eat well and do the right things to take care of myself...

I might slow down the WD some more, I am exhausted. Maybe to have had 3 months of temperatures of -20C CONSTANTLY didn't help me. Looking forward to warm days!!

Hope you are doing well.

[Rhiannon]

Hi MammaP, thank you for your input and kind words.

Yes I have a new medication to take for hypothyroid, won't be a problem, but still one more med!!

It's a bit discouraging for me because I have tried SO HARD to eat well and do the right things to take care of myself...

I might slow down the WD some more, I am exhausted. Maybe to have had 3 months of temperatures of -20C CONSTANTLY didn't help me. Looking forward to warm days!!

Hope you are doing well.

 

You have been moving forward without breaks and it looks like you recently cut your Wellbutrin a lot. Plus now you're adjusting your thyroid meds. It sounds like it might be a good time for a little break.

[Athena]

Rhi, you are right. I am taking a break.

Yes I have been reducing Wellbutrin by 10mg drops, because I have read that it's an easy one to WD from, and that people do fine with large drops. It has been the case for me the previous times, and cutting on Wellbutrin was in fact my break from reducing Paxil which is a lot harder. But this time, it has not been easy like the other times. So yes, it means that I need a break and thank you for reminding me.

 

I see that you are multidrug tapering too, you are doing great!! How do you do it... do you cut one one month and another one the next month? Or tiny tapers of each at the same time?

 

Thank you!

[Altostrata]

In that case, you need to go off Wellbutrin more gradually. It's easier to taper than the other drugs, but it can still be difficult for some people, particularly those with a long history of drug switching.

[Athena]

Yes Altostrata, you are right and I will.

 

Do you think the hypothyroidism and anemia are related to that though?

 

Thank you!

[Altostrata]

I think your health might be a bit more fragile in general due to those medical conditions. Please take care of yourself.

[Athena]

One thing is sure, I don't feel better AT ALL with the new synthroid.

 

I want so much to take care of myself , I just don't know how anymore.

[Altostrata]

Thyroid medications sometimes need very careful calibration. Please see your doctor.

[Athena]

Oh wishing there is an end to this tonight.

Oh wishing I'll get myself back soon.

Long, long journey.

[Rhiannon]

Hi Athena!

 

Sorry I missed your question above about how I do my multi drug taper. I think there's a thread about it somewhere in Tapering that goes into more detail. The main thing is, I make very small cuts, usually 2% or less. Sometimes I will reduce two at the same time but usually not all four at once, although I often make a series of cuts in all of them over a one to two week period or so and then hold for a while. 

 

Right now I'm emphasizing the Lamictal and Valium because those are the two I'm still on highest doses of (relatively) and because I want to get off the Valium because of doctor prejudice against benzos. 

 

I'd encourage you to take a look at your Wellbutrin taper.  You're down to a pretty small dose so you need to be thinking of your cuts in terms of percentage of your current dose, not in absolute terms of how many mg this cut is compared to the cuts I have done in the past.  It gets tricky at those low doses, I've been surprised to see that what I thought was a small cut was a higher percentage than I realized, once I did the math. And at the lower doses the drop in receptor occupancy becomes quite precipitous.  See this (charts on page 4 and after): http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6036-why-taper-paper-demonstrates-importance-of-gradual-change-in-plasma-concentration/

 

I personally never found Wellbutrin any easier to get off than any other med, so I think it's important to listen to your body. If you're feeling crappy don't push your luck. I see so many people who rush off at the end and a year later they're back on meds. It's not worth it, in my opinion. If you're feeling bad, take breaks, slow down, that's my approach.

[Athena]

Rhi thank you so much for your response. You are right, right, right. I am pushing my luck. I so much want to make babies with my oh so wonderful boyfriend before I am too old. But like you say, if I have to go back on my med because I am too crappy, that won't happen. Thank you for reminding me. I guess I'm still going to need this wise reminder from time to time!

 

I tend to have a PLAN, but it's not good for me to do that. Like I know in advance how my body will accept the change. We can't know. And like you say Rhi, Wellbutrin might be a little bit easier than Paxil in my case, but not that much. The effects are different. With Paxil I have to drag myself around. With Wellbutrin, I have to calm myself down, sometimes it feels like it's the end of the world in my head. And in my body. All on alert. I really find the WD symptoms of a drug resemble the side effects of that same drug.

 

You are so kind Rhi, and I see your courage in your signature. We'll get through!!

[Athena]

Hi you all!

 

I have a question for those of you who are multi-drug tapering. Do you find it easier to try and finish one before you start tapering the other one? Or rather do a little bit of one, then a little bit of the other? Since maybe not the same receptors are involved in both meds, maybe it "gives a rest" to alternate, if ever this hypothesis makes any sense at all...?!

 

Thanks for sharing what you think!

Athena

[Athena]

Insomnia again...

 

I will use this "free" time to say that I wish I could write more often, but it is such an effort for my brain to find the right words even in my first language... Do you guys have a hard time finding your words too?? I feel like I am 100 years old and losing my verbal capacities.

 

(sigh) 

[mlrp]

Hello, Athena,

 

Thank you for replying to my thread. :-) I applaud your courage and strength in coming back from all the meds that you were put on. Amazing! I sometimes feel like a total wimp for struggling the way I do on the few meds I am on, and for such a relatively brief time. But I am extremely sensitive to meds, and that is part of the insidious nature of these drugs - they nearly always do harm, at almost any dose, and for any length of time.

 

I relate to so much of what you are going through: missing the "old" me (I was very athletic, too. Now I'm overweight and a one-mile walk is a challenge.); easily losing my stamina and ability to post very much, or very coherently; getting discouraged by how long the recovery journey seems to take. I sometimes feel as if I will be an old woman before I fully recover.

 

But we mustn't lose hope. People talk about "marathons" vs. "races" and I need to remember that about this journey. Even though this feels harder than any actual marathon I have ever done.

 

I send you warm, healing winds from the south. :-) Take good care of yourself. We will get through this. BTW, your english is excellent!

[Athena]

Thank you for your kind words mlrp!

 

Any multi-drug taperer having thoughts about moving back and forth Wellbutrin/Paxil or just finish off for once the Wellbutrin?

 

Thank you so so much everyone!

 

Athena

[mlrp]

Hello, Athena,

 

Thanks for stopping by my thread!

 

I think we do have a few things in common. I liked your profile name straight away because it's the name of a strong warrior goddess - according to Wikipedia, the goddess of just warfare. And if ever there was a just cause for war, we have one! My profile name is my initials, and it looks like the sound a frog makes - mlrp! - not very appealing.  I wasn't in a very creative mood when I first logged on here.

 

By nature, I am a very UNangry person. If anything, I probably need to get more in touch with some healthy anger over past hurts in my life. But here, on SA, the magnitude of what I am dealing with becomes apparent and I can't help but become angry. I see some of the same frustration in you, yes? So, without wishing to dwell on it - I'm with you in the grrrrr!! department.

 

I never seriously trained as a dancer but my background is in theatre, and my husband and I met on a dancefloor. So help me, God, I'm going to get back out there one day. Maybe sooner, rather than later, during a window! (but without overdoing... *sigh*)

 

wishing you peace and healing...

[Athena]

Hi everyone! And thank you Mlrp!

 

Yes, I am at war!  I think we all are, but in a nice, positive way of standing up against what has been done to us...

And you are right Mlrp, I do feel some anger, in a more or less intense way depending on the periods. And I try to use this energy to change some things even if I'm not always successful... But I very much hope the anger is not omnipresent in my writings, because I have a lot of hope for us too!

 

I went to the osteopath yesterday, and I have had the best night of sleep in over a month! I am sure the two are linked. I'm going to try and write a thread about osteopathy soon.

 

Blessings to you all, take very good care, sending hope to all of you!

[mlrp]

Good day, Athena!

 

I don't see you as an "angry" person at all - quite the opposite! Except for the "righteous" anger we occasionally have over the wrong that has been done to us. I'm not a very angry person, myself, but I do experience flare ups of it here. I hope I wasn't projecting any anger on you. Here's to vanquishing our "enemy" with healthy, positive, thoughts and self-care!

 

I'd be interested to hear about osteopathy. I have incorporated chiropractic care into my wellness regimen for many years now. I don't always buy into the supplements they want to put me on, but the adjustments (especially with applied kinesiology) work wonders for me.

 

A peaceful day to you, with moments of actual joy. :-)

[Athena]

Thank you for your message Mlrp!

 

Oh no, I don't think you projected any anger on me!! I just had some self-thoughts about making sure I stay positive in all this and not discouraging anybody who reads me. Thank you for reassuring me!!

 

And thank you about my English too, it's a bit of a barrier for me to express some of the most complex feelings we can experience in a WD state, in a second language. But it's ok too, I'm so glad to have found this place, and I'm trying not to be too overly cautious/anxious about it.

 

I'm glad the chiropractic is helping you! I like osteopathy a lot because it also addresses all links with the organs, and the circulation of cerebro-spinal fluid. It defines itself as a way to increase the body's ability to heal and restore itself, with gentle and sensitive techniques. And I find it does it wonderfully! One has to choose their therapist very carefully though, as some people refer themselves as osteopaths but don't have the proper formation, which is in fact of many years and takes a lot, a lot of work, practice and studies. This sadly affects the credibility of this wonderful profession.

 

A good, peaceful and joyful sunday to you Mlrp and to y'all!! We will win this war!!!

[mlrp]

Hi, Athena!

 

I thought I'd stop by "your place," since you were kind enough to visit mine.

 

There certainly are connections between osteopathy and chiropractic - both ascribing to the whole body concept of treatment. Similar to your view re osteopaths, I believe that one must be very, very careful in selecting a chiropractor. Unfortunately, I have encountered a few I thought were too "out there" in their thinking and I couldn't trust their quality of care. That said, I found an excellent, amazingly gifted chiropractor a little over ten years ago and I have never looked back. He actually retired last year, but took great care to pass his practice on to another equally gifted, albeit younger, practitioner.

 

I may have led friends astray with the "5 hours sleep" comment in my thread. For me, sleep is not a "problem," but that's because I'm on Remeron. If anything, I sleep too much. But if I don't get at least 7-8 hours, I risk setting off a wave. 

 

I do understand very well the agony of insomnia. Back in 2013 I suffered traumatization from trying to deal with my (borderline) mother. The result was severe insomnia and night terrors + insomnia anxiety. It became so bad that one week I went with no sleep at all, and before that was sleeping only about 2 hours a night. So, I ended up near psychotic in ER, and that's when the psych put me on Remeron, to help me "sleep." But Remeron sleep isn't at all restorative, and my gut tells me Remeron is the main culprit in my lingering depression, plus all the weight I've gained and my risk for diabetes.

 

Now, 14 months later, I see I must seriously look into tapering Remeron. I worry that the Remeron taper will make the Wellbutrin taper look like a walk in the park.

 

So, I truly commiserate with your insomnia issues. I guess, maybe just be grateful you weren't put on Remeron for it.    If I had it to do it over again, I would have done anything to resolve my insomnia and anxiety without resorting to ADs, which only added insult to injury. I had NO idea what I was in for.

 

The big lesson I have learned is to not add insomnia anxiety to the insomnia itself. I let myself believe it would kill me or something. Because of the support here, I will be much better prepared to deal with it if/when it recurs with the Remeron taper.

 

I wish I had answers for your insomnia.  We have a few things in common - I am anemic, too, from having been on 7 months intravenous antibiotics for a blood infection last winter. I'm actually lucky to be here. So, I take a small iron supplement (13.5 mg) every other day or so.

 

I wish you some restful days (and nights!) ahead. Not to pry, but is your first language French by any chance? My mother,  bless her, is French (naturalized American).

[Rhiannon]

Bonjour Athene!

 

Um, about alternating tapers, I think it's up to you, but if you're experiencing effects that you dislike from both drugs, it makes sense to me to bring one down some, then bring the other down some, etc. It sounds like the Wellbutrin is more activating than the Paxil so it might make sense to cut the WB a bit first, then hold until you're feeling pretty stable, then cut the Paxil a bit.

 

You can't go faster with alternating tapers, really, but the advantage is that you don't end up still on high doses of one med while the other is coming down. 

 

Personally I am very glad that I brought all mine down together even though it meant going more slowly. I feel that my brain was adapted to all of them together, the whole mix, as if it were one big drug, so for me it made sense to bring the whole combination down together. Mostly it's just that I hate them ALL equally so it's more satisfying to see the numbers go down for all of them even if they go down slowly.

 

You might consider posting a thread on the topic in the Tapering section asking if anyone else has alternated drugs during their tapers. I think other people have done it and it might be good to get feedback from people who have experienced it.

[Athena]

Hello you all.

 

Thank you Mlrp and Rhi! Yes, my first language is Quebecer French indeed! You both are smart and sharp!

 

My sleep has been so bad the last couples of days. I slept well yesterday late-afternoon for 2 hours because I was so exhausted but last night, nothing. I thought I was through with insomnia this time again last week when I had a good night sleep alternating with a bad one, but it seems the bad ones have taken over...Do you guys think I should updose my Wellbutrin by 1mg or 2? I've been at 14mg for 5 weeks now, and I usually stabilize a lot faster. I know I went too fast this time, and I'm paying the price.

 

Rhi, the alternating taper makes a lot of sense to me too. I realize the Wellbutrin is still giving me the breathing difficulty (or has it become another WD symptom?), so I might keep concentrating on that one. I hate Paxil just as much, but I think I prefer A LITTLE BIT being all knocked out than difficulty breathing. But I still got time to think about it, because no drop is going to happen for at least another month. And yes Rhi I agree too that the mix feels like one big drug, one big slimy creature that makes you feel awful.

 

Mlrp I am so glad that you found a therapist who helps and understands you, that is so precious. And thank you so much for your caring words. Insomnia... What can one do? sometimes it's just patience it needs. I take magnesium supplements, melatonin and a mixture of calming herbs, which do calm me, but I still can't sleep. I was put on Remeron at one time, and boy did I sleep!! But I couldn't wake up after 12 hours of sleep!! It did to me the effect of receiving a blow to the head 20 minutes after swallowing the pill, and be in a coma for many hours, and having to emerge from the coma every single morning!! I didn't tolerate it very long. And went on to the next pill...

 

Mlrp I don't think the Remeron taper will make Wellbutrin taper look like a walk in the park. We don't know how our body will react. But when we take it slow (I haven't been a perfect example for that), we heal and feel better and better overall, over the months. You will stabilize and things will appear smoother and you can decrease a little bit of Remeron , then a little bit of Wellbutrin and so forth. One step at a time.

 

Good day to all!

[Athena]

I decided to increase Wellbutrin by 1mg to 15 today.

 

Couldn't stand the intense insomnia anymore!

 

I very much dislike the tightness in my throat too...

 

I'll let you guys know if it gets better in the coming days.

[Petunia]

Thanks for letting us know Athena, I hope the insomnia improves.

[Athena]

Hello all, and thank you Petu,

 

A little update. This wave continues to overwhelm me. I have been able to get more sleep, which of course helps. Since the beginning of my taper, I have found that I need SO MUCH sleep to be able to recover and be functional for THE BASICS. Not always able to get it though. But I got some last night + this morning, which I am thankful for. There is often (and would say always when I'm in a wave) a big gap in my sleep around 4:30 AM. What happens in my body at that time, I do not know, but I wake up and can't sleep again. Any of you also experience this 4:30 mysterious gap?!

 

I still have this uncomfortable tightness in my throat, and breathing capacity is decreased. Some nausea too today.

 

Maybe I'll have a couple of days of adjustment to this tiny 1mg increase in Wellbutrin. But I hope then I can better stabilize.

 

So I figure this Wellbutrin taper is very much another ball game when you get under 20mg! I'll change my speed of tapering that's for sure.  

 

Hanging on! Any thoughts/opinions always welcomed!

 

Thank you all for being part of this great place.

[btdt]

Insomnia again...

 

I will use this "free" time to say that I wish I could write more often, but it is such an effort for my brain to find the right words even in my first language... Do you guys have a hard time finding your words too?? I feel like I am 100 years old and losing my verbal capacities.

 

(sigh) 

Hi fellow Canadian I was reading your journey here to get a handle on who you are relative to antidepressant drug use I made it then far without comment good for me as I usually have perhaps a bit too much mouth.  

I have to say that this post here is one I could write just now. 

"100 years old and losing my verbal capacities"

I guess that is all I have to say just now as I am limited.  I find it annoying to say the least that I find myself here at this late date. 

Nice to greet you.  I hope to converse more with you when I am feeling better. 

peace 

[btdt]

Hello all, and thank you Petu,

 

A little update. This wave continues to overwhelm me. I have been able to get more sleep, which of course helps. Since the beginning of my taper, I have found that I need SO MUCH sleep to be able to recover and be functional for THE BASICS. Not always able to get it though. But I got some last night + this morning, which I am thankful for. There is often (and would say always when I'm in a wave) a big gap in my sleep around 4:30 AM. What happens in my body at that time, I do not know, but I wake up and can't sleep again. Any of you also experience this 4:30 mysterious gap?!

 

I still have this uncomfortable tightness in my throat, and breathing capacity is decreased. Some nausea too today.

 

Maybe I'll have a couple of days of adjustment to this tiny 1mg increase in Wellbutrin. But I hope then I can better stabilize.

 

So I figure this Wellbutrin taper is very much another ball game when you get under 20mg! I'll change my speed of tapering that's for sure.  

 

Hanging on! Any thoughts/opinions always welcomed!

 

Thank you all for being part of this great place.

" May 2014: Paxil 5.3mg, Wellbutrin 20mg   June: W 14mg"

 

20 - 14 = 6mg 

which is much more than a 10% drop from 20mg 

10% drop from 20mg of W would be 2mg and then you need to hold to let your body adjust.... 

some people hold 3 wks some hold 6 wks between drops... 

 

I could be wrong as there are no day dates in your post for instance it could be May 1st to June 1st which would be 4 wks ... not much waiting time in there for a 30% drop of 6mg... or it could be May 1st to June 30th which is 8wks... still leaves only a couple of wks between drops.  I am only guessing on the days. 

My opinion and  please know I did not taper but went cold turkey so I have no real life experience with this ....still I read a lot in the 6 years reading and living this... 

waiting between drops is as important as doing small drops is my opinion ... how your body responds to the drop is the other major important point. 

I think our bodies are the masters of healing here and we need to listen carefully as best we can to what the body is saying....waking up in the night insomnia other symptoms may well be the body saying this may be a small drop this may be a long time waiting to drop again... BUT IT IS TOO MUCH FOR ME 

So when the body speaks listening and responding is one third of the work.  Trying to figure out what the body is saying and why it is saying it is  part of the learning curve..(that sometimes changes)  it may be different for your body then other peoples bodies.  

Some people drop by 5% as they find 10% too much it is very individual and changeable... in the same person 10% drops can be fine for most of the withdrawal but when they get to lower doses they must do 5% drops or less.  

 

I know you want this over with so you can have a baby and get on with your life I get that.  Getting off the drugs is what everyone wants I did this long ago thinking I would heal faster but it just does not work that way.  Slow steady listening to you body being kind and gentle with your body as it heals supporting with the drugs it needs while it needs them... our bodies are always doing the best they can. 

 

I am not clicking to smoothly in my thinking and I hope this makes sense I know what I want to say... I know it so well yet I am not sure it is coming out right as it feels garbled in my head... I hope to talk again soon and be clear headed. 

peace

[Athena]

Hello btdt! Thank you for stopping by and greeting me!

 

I am sorry that you also feel that you are missing the words, it's not a nice feeling. I know what you mean when you say that you know exactly what you want to say but can't express it nearly as well. I guess this too will improve as we heal some more.

 

I am sorry too about your long drug history, it seems that the medical field is only starting to start to have an idea about what it does exactly to us since it is so complex.

 

Thank you for reminding me to go slow with the taper and respect my body. You are so right when you say listening to our body and responding is one third of the work. I don't do it enough. The Wellbutrin taper has been my "break" from the Paxil taper. At higher doses I felt ok to drop even by 10mg a month without any major problem. I started to feel it was too much by the end of winter, so I went slower, but not slow enough. The problem is that I start feeling bad WD symptoms with a big delay so this time I didn't adjust in time. So now no drop for a while!! It's so nice of you to help me when you are not feeling so good either.

 

Update: Sleep a little bit better, wake up later (around 5:30). Tightness in throat and limited breathing still there, but not constantly as it was.

 

Thank you btdt and everybody for reading me. I wish you all a little more peace and a little more freedom from symptoms everyday.

[mogfish]

Hi Athena, just came past your thread by chance but wanted to comment on you saying about missing your words! 

I can very much relate to this as I have been saying for years that I " lose my words" and have found it to be very pronounced whilst tapering off antidepressants. At times i even wondered if i was experiencing mini strokes as I knew what I needed to say but just couldn't find the words. I successfully completed my taper off pristiq about 4 months ago and have found that I am much less prone to 'losing my words" now compared to where I was a few months back. I used to find that in a stressful situation the losing of words was much more evident but was also very much there in general day to day conversation

 

I wish you all the best with your taper

[mlrp]

Bonjour, Athena ~! 

 

I hope you are well today. Thank you for your support and caring thoughts to my posts - especially as brevity is not my strong suit (that is a work in progress for me)!

 

It's good to learn that you are having at least a small respite from your recent wave - and even an hour of extra sleep is precious when one is sleep deprived. I wish I could give you some of the extra sleep that I'm getting which I don't need and isn't doing me any good. I know what it's like to have terrible insomnia (one of the reasons I was put on Remeron) - and that is one of my big concerns for when I do start tapering Remeron - that the insomnia will return.

 

Do you practice what is called regular sleep hygiene? Going to bed at about the same time every night, avoiding computers, tv, and other electronics for at least an hour prior to bed, sleep in a cool, dark room, etc.? I try to keep to a bed time routine and i have found that it does help with the quality of my sleep. 

 

I'm breaking my own rule here because it's 9:30 my time and I am usually in bed, almost lights out by now. But I wanted to look in on you to say hello and merci for all your bon mots!