Paul2014: Zyprexa withdrawal insomnia - looking for help

[Paul2014]

Thank you Petu,

 

Imn that link Atos mentions:

 

"I don't know how taking supplemental GABA will affect you if you have benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms. If your nervous system has been sensitized by benzo withdrawal any time in the past, I suggest being very cautious with supplemental GABA"

 

Why do you need to be cautious while on benzo withdrawal? I am currently taking a benzodiazepine.  Does this apply to me as well?

I am trying to find out weather it would be safe for me to take GABA. 

[Petunia]

Hi Paul,

Please would you put your drug and withdrawal history in your signature, it makes it easier for us to see your situation and offer suggestions.  Instructions for how to do that are here:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/893-please-put-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature/

 

Why do you need to be cautious while on benzo withdrawal? I am currently taking a benzodiazepine.  Does this apply to me as well?

I am trying to find out weather it would be safe for me to take GABA. 

 

I tried using GABA while in early, acute withdrawal and I was taking xanax occasionally.  The GABA didn't help at all, but it didn't seem to cause any adverse effects.  From my understanding, when a person's nervous system has become destabilized by the use or withdrawal of any kinds of drugs, any drug or supplement can cause paradoxical effects. 

 

If you decide to try it, start with a very small amount, that way you can find out safely how it will effect you.

[compsports]

Altos,

 

Yes, I am taking the Xanax every night and I have been doing this for about a month.  Unfortunately it's the only way I get a few hours of sleep.  I have been reading a good deal about benzodiazepines and the clinical duration of action for Xanax is 3 -4 hours while the clinical duration of action for Clonazepam is 6 - 8 hours.  I've also learned that the equivalent dose of 0.5 mg of Xanax is equal to 0.5 mg of Clonazepam.  I am thinking, would it make sense to take clonazepam in place of the Xanax?  and I would like your feedback on this one.  Hear what you think about it  I figure 6-8 hours of action vs. 3-4 hours of action.  Perhaps the reason with Xanax I only sleep about 3 to 4 hours is because the action of the pill wears out in that time.  Then I am thinking if clonazepam's action last for 6-8 hours I may get more hours of sleep with 0.5 mg Clonazepam than with 0.5 mg Xanax.  I hope I am making sense.

 

I know benzodiazepines are very addictive so I may have to taper this one as well as you point out but as long as I am taking it I think, why not take the one that gives me more sleep?  I would like to hear your input on this one.

 

One other thing, the cost of Olanzapine without insurance is extremely expensive.  I have been suggested to look into ordering from a Canadian pharmacy.  Anyone on this forum has any experience with this?  The hard part is to find a reputable pharmacy so you don't end up getting a fake instead of the real medicine.  This would be disastrous. Can anyone point me out to a reputable one?  This information would help others on this forum as well with drug affordability issues.

Hi Paul,

 

Several years ago, I ordered Remeron from a Canadian pharmacy didn't have any problems at all.  Unfortunately, it looks like they have gone out of business.   But if you do a google search and find one that is appealing, give the pharmacy department a call and screen them to make sure you are comfortable with them.    Most of them have 800 numbers.

 

CS

[Paul2014]

Thanks compsports, I've been looking into it but I haven't found one so far without too many bad reviews. 

[Paul2014]

Thanks Petu,

 

I think I am going to try a small amount.  I am concerned about doing this because of Altos comment on GABA and benzo withdrawal. 

 

I asked Altos about her comments on this but she hasn't replied to me. 

 

Altos,

 

Kindly could you clarify this one for me?

 

Why do you need to be cautious while on benzo withdrawal? I am currently taking a benzodiazepine.  Does this apply to me as well?

 

Your input would help me make a decision.  Thanks.

[Meimeiquest]

Benzos work on the GABA receptors. The other issue with GABA supplements is that they normally do not cross the blood brain barrier. I don't know the other issues. I am taking magnesium right now (tapering a benzo) at bedtime, and it maybe is helping some. I'm pretty sure I get about six hours of sleep a night, sometimes more. A naturopath and some other Internet sites say it helps GABA across the blood brain barrier. I take 250mg extended/slow release niacin at bedtime. But again, I don't know if it would be good for you. I got it cheap at Walgreens.

[Paul2014]

Hi Paul, I don't know the answer to most of your questions, but I did have the thought that compounded olanzepine might be less than buying individual tablets since you are throwing so much away. In 2013 it cost me $1 per milligram. Best!

Hi, thanks.

 

I am concerned about getting the compounded because of a previous comment you made about your experience with it.

 

"maybe you would rather get it compounded by a compounding pharmacist? That's what I did for my one dose. BUT he put it in methyl cellulose which means the drug is absorbed over eight hours. With such a sedating drug, that is not a good thing"

[Meimeiquest]

They can put it in one of many solutions. Just tell them that you would like it in an immediate-release formula so you get the whole dose at bedtime if you want to go that route. But if you still are not sleeping well, maybe it doesn't matter. The methyl cellulose (with the drug) is metabolized over eight hours, according to the pharmacist I used. Does that make sense? But it turned out that a different drug was causing my problems, it was not the right time for me to reinstate.

[Paul2014]

Benzos work on the GABA receptors. The other issue with GABA supplements is that they normally do not cross the blood brain barrier. I don't know the other issues. I am taking magnesium right now (tapering a benzo) at bedtime, and it maybe is helping some. I'm pretty sure I get about six hours of sleep a night, sometimes more. A naturopath and some other Internet sites say it helps GABA across the blood brain barrier. I take 250mg extended/slow release niacin at bedtime. But again, I don't know if it would be good for you. I got it cheap at Walgreens.

Thanks Meimeiquest.  Please help me clarify, Do you mean magnesium helps GABA cross the blood brain barrier?

 

Also, how much magnesium are you taking?

[Meimeiquest]

I'm so sorry. I meant Dr. Google says NIACIN.helps GABA cross the blood brain barrier, but he/she is wrong sometimes . I take Slow Release Niacin 250mg at bedtime.

 

If you aren't taking MAGNESIUM, you should read the thread on it.

 

Good luck!

[Paul2014]

how much magnesium are you taking?

[Meimeiquest]

I take 200 mg twice daily...I think people do a lot of different things, but most people find it helpful. Some kinds are absorbed more easily.

[Paul2014]

Thanks

[Jemima]

Altos I am confused by something, you suggested 0.1 mg to me but then to Omorfi you suggested 0.5 mg.  Why the difference?

 

 

 

I don't know what post you're referencing since it doesn't seem to be in your Intro thread, but there's no such thing as "one-size-fits-all" when tapering off a psychiatric drug.  Omorfi no doubt has a different history and different withdrawal symptoms than you, and therefore the suggested way to proceed is different.

[Paul2014]

 

Altos I am confused by something, you suggested 0.1 mg to me but then to Omorfi you suggested 0.5 mg.  Why the difference?

 

 

 

I don't know what post you're referencing since it doesn't seem to be in your Intro thread, but there's no such thing as "one-size-fits-all" when tapering off a psychiatric drug.  Omorfi no doubt has a different history and different withdrawal symptoms than you, and therefore the suggested way to proceed is different.

 

I fail to see the relevance of your post.    You are coming out of the blue picking on a comment made over a week earlier, a comment that was already fully answered by Altos and that was the end of it.

[Altostrata]

Sometimes there's a little disconnection with a lot of voices in a thread and posting at various times. That's one drawback of a forum site. Please, let's all give each other a break.

 

Paul, healhwarehouse.com is indeed a legitimate US pharmacy site. I have ordered from them. They charge fair prices for generics, where your local pharmacy is trying to make a good profit.

 

Benzos are powerful drugs that have a number of worrisome characteristics. If you take them regularly, they can be difficult to reduce, causing withdrawal symptoms. Some people find they get inter-dose withdrawal or rebound symptoms. They can cause paradoxical reactions.

 

If you are experiencing withdrawal symptoms from a benzo, you may be hypersensitive to neuroactive substances. As meimei said, benzos act on the GABA system. I don't know what taking a GABA supplement might do in that situation.

 

When you have a question about a supplement, you might be able to find information by looking in the Symptoms and Self-care forum or posting there. If there are no existing topics, you might start a topic yourself to see what the community has to say.

 

I've looked at whether GABA supplements pass the blood-brain barrier pretty extensively. My conclusion is, no matter what various alternative medicine sites say, it does not pass the blood-brain barrier. The molecule is too large. However, from my experience -- I take a GABA supplement myself occasionally -- it does have a noticeable relaxing effect (for a very short while). I presume this is because it acts on body systems without getting into the brain.

[Paul2014]

Altos,  Thank you very much for your post and for taking the time to address some of my concerns.  Your have clarified things for me.  I am going to give healhwarehouse.com a try.  I was concerned because I have seen many bad reviews when you google them.

 

I have been doing all the reading I can over here and all over the internet and still there are so many things I am not clear about.  This whole thing is overwhelming.

 

 L-Theanine has been suggested to me to help me sleep, passiflora (Passion Flowers) as well.  I did a search on the Symptoms and Self-care forum on this site and found no information on these.  Following your comments above, I will possibly start a topic on these to get people's input. 

 

Thanks again.

[Paul2014]

Hi Rhi,

 

I am starting 1.875 mg Zyprexa tonight.  I am using a 5 mg pill to prepare a suspension in water as you taught me, but I am a bit confused with the math and I was hopping you could help me with this.  I'll do 5 mg in 24 ml of water.  So I will have to draw 9 ml tonight to get 1.875 mg and another 9ml tomorrow night (from the same preparation) to get another 1.875 mg.  I'll throw out the left over after the second night.  Would this give me an accurate dose or should I dilute more?

 

I am anxious about not getting it right and going into further withdrawal by not using the right dose. I hope you understand. 

 

Thanks

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

The math seems right to me but your reason for increasing any how you arrived at that amount is unclear. What are your symptoms?

[alldaisy]

Hi Paul,

 

Around sept 2012 I stopped taking Zyprexa 15 mg cold turkey. I did it because I gained 30 pounds in around 4 months. When I quit Zyprexa, I started  with a lot of crying, anxiety, panic attacks, lack of appetite and insomnia. I did not sleep for three days in a row and then I slept for about three days, after that I never ever slept again naturally. I am never sleepy, never tired, never hungry (the other symptoms disappeared). I am always wide awake even after sleeping 2 -3 hours a day and some days just 1 hour. I have tried geodon, trazodon, clonopin and other medicines that I can't remember now, nothing helps, some of those meds helped me sleep some hours and then stopped working. Gabapentin was the only medication that made me sleep around 5 - 6 hours . I started with 600 mg, but after some months on that dosis, it stopped working. Now they put me on 1200 mg of gabapentin, but I have not noticed any improvement, I am only sleeping  2 -3 hours (very irregular). The only change on all these months is that now I am not dreaming so much as the beginning of the nightmare, I am having more hours of deep sleep.

 

In 2012 I was feeling so bad and I was so ignorant about psychotropic drugs that I trusted my doctors when they told me that my insomnia and all the symptoms  were for the chemical imbalance and not Zyprexa related. I took the new medication without complaining 

After two years of this nightmare I have read a lot looking for answers, help, support and a cure for my insomnia. I have found a lot of people describing the same thing, going through the same nightmare as us. I have not found a logical explanation or a cure. Some people have started sleeping better without help of any medication after some months, some after 22 months, there are other that have been like this for 6 years already. Some have been put back on very low dosis of Zyprexa (for some this worked, for others it didn't). 

 

What is interesting is that gabapentin is the only medication that has helped me, Zyprexa binds very weakly to the gaba receptors. 

 

My plan is: zero coffee or chocolate, a balanced diet, I try to eat turkey, bananas, do exercises. I always go to bed at the same time and take the gabapentin at the same time. I try not to use the computer or electronic 2 -3 hours before bed time. I take a warm bath before going to bed, read a book, drink warm milk. 

 

Next month I have an appointment with my psychiatric, I will discuss all the info I have found lately. I read in other forums that a scientist at Harvard found that there is still Zyprexa binded to receptors after 6 months that the person has stopped taking it. Maybe we just need more time, our brain need time to heal and recover. 

 

I hope you start sleeping better and feeling better. You are not alone.

 

Please let me know if the low dosis of Zyprexa is helping you, I have not try this option yet.

 

[Paul2014]

Hi alldaisy,

 

I am sorry to hear of the problems you are going through because of Zyprexa.  I identify with everything you are going through because of this drug.  This is a terrible drug.  I have been diagnosed with diabetes as a result of taking this drug long term (there is no history of diabetes in my family)  We should stick together and share as much information as possible.

 

After doing a lot of searching and finding no good answers to my severe Zyprexa induced insomnia, I decided to try to go back into the drug to relieve the insomnia so I could at least function again and get a job, with the intention to do a slow taper later on.  I started with 1.25 mg and later increased it to 2.5 mg.  Now after 2 months taking this Zyprexa again I am beginning to sleep all night again.  In a few weeks I plan to start a slow taper to eliminate it gradually.

 

At the same time I started taking the Zyprexa again, I also started to take some natural remedies for sleep in an attempt to get better quality of sleep during those few hours of sleep (even if they didn't seem to be doing much at the moment, I still took them anyway).

 

I am very concerned about what I will find when I start to taper off (whether the severe insomnia will come back again at some point and how much it will last).

 

In your situation almost 2 years have passed and you mention a little bit of improvement in your sleep.  I don't know that in your situation I would want to start taking again this drug (even on a small dose).  Perhaps at this point it is a matter of time.

 

In your situation you mention that you are able to function, in my situation I couldn't function, I felt terrible.  I lost my job and I had to find a way to be able to function again as soon as possible.  This is why reluctantly I decided to take the drug again and you are right, there are no many answers out there.

 

I would like to hear more from people like you and me that are trying to heal after taking Zyprexa.  it helps a little bit to know that we are not alone and perhaps we can help each other out sharing information.

Paul

[acetyl]

Hi Paul,

 

Around sept 2012 I stopped taking Zyprexa 15 mg cold turkey. I did it because I gained 30 pounds in around 4 months. When I quit Zyprexa, I started  with a lot of crying, anxiety, panic attacks, lack of appetite and insomnia. 

 

Alldaisy, how long did it take for the anxiety and panic attacks to go away? I'm 4 months off my antipsychotic and still suffering absolutely terribly from them

[alldaisy]

 

Hi Paul,

 

Around sept 2012 I stopped taking Zyprexa 15 mg cold turkey. I did it because I gained 30 pounds in around 4 months. When I quit Zyprexa, I started  with a lot of crying, anxiety, panic attacks, lack of appetite and insomnia. 

 

Alldaisy, how long did it take for the anxiety and panic attacks to go away? I'm 4 months off my antipsychotic and still suffering absolutely terribly from them

 

 

Hi Acetyl,

 

I was with the crying, panic attacks and anxiety for around two months until my pdoc put me on medication again (I really needed the medication), a very low dosis of lamictal and geodon. Then I start losing hair and with some involuntary movement on my face, I stopped taking those medications (geodon cold turkey and lamictal in a period of two weeks). I have been in many psychotropic drugs after  that, but any has helped me with the insomnia and lack of appetite (I have been like that for two years already).  I haven't had any more panic attack or anxiety.

 

The road to recovery is not easy Acetyl, we have to be strong, be positive and keep fighting. I have days where I want to give up. I haven't sleep well in very long period of time (two years). Last night was terrible for me, I woke up with headache. I have read, read, read looking for answers, there nothing written. We all are surviving day by day these nightmare. 

 

Take care

[Paul2014]

This is for all the people on Zyprexa/olanzapine suffering severe insomnia when trying to taper it off and/or discontinue it.  Read the first post of this thread and you will see the mess I was in trying to quit this poison.

 

I tried every natural and chemical remedy available out there.  I consulted with many different Doctors (most of them, if not all  were a waste of time and money).  I went all over the internet looking for answers.  I lived it all, the desperation, the lost of my job, friends, social life, all due to the inability to function.  In addition, olanzapine made me fat, raised my triglicerides and my blood sugar, to the point that I was diagnosed with diabetes in 2012 (there is no history of diabetes in my family).  I ended up going back to 2.5 mg of olanzapine in order to relieve the brutal killing insomnia.  Afterwards, I tried slow taper.  It didn't work for me either.  Even a small reduction in dose would bring about the severe insomnia.

 

Now, almost 2 years later I am so happy to tell you all that I am totally free of Zyprexa and sleeping ok every night. 

I am writing this to let everyone know what I did that got me out of this mess.  This is my own personal experience.  I am not telling anyone what to do. but I am giving this info in a way to help others find their way out of this horrible trap.  When I was desperate looking for answers I wish someone had told me what I know now.

 

The solution was given to me by a neurologist who put me on a high dose of melatonin.  I had tried melatonin before (for several months I took 3 mg every night and it didn't work). So I was very skeptical but I went along with the Dr because he was willing to help me and I had never tried a high dose.

 

What I learned through my own experience is that given enough time, a high dose of melatonin will fix whatever Zyprexa messes up in your sleep cycle.  But it needs a little time to do its work.  If you do your taper along with taking a high dose melatonin you will not suffer the devastating insomnia that most people like us experience.

 

I am not here to debate how or why it works or whether some people think anything more than 1 or 2 mg of melatonin is too much.  I have seen a lot of misguided advice in this regard on this forum.

 

The bottom line is it works.  It worked for me and it did what nothing else was able to do for me.  Today, I am totally off Zyprexa for good thanks to it.  It may work in fixing insomnia induced withdrawal caused by other anti psychotics but I do not know.  My only experience has been with Zyprexa.

 

The original plan was this: start melatonin (regular melatonin, not slow release) 10 mg every night, 2 weeks later cut olanzapine by 1/4.  every 6 weeks after that cut 1/4 olanzapine until you get to "0"...  In reality, I ended up taking up to 26 mg melatonin and had to do a much slower taper of olanzapine at the end.

 

When I started taking the 10 mg of melatonin, I was very sleepy during the day.  After a while I kind of got used to it and the day sleepiness got gradually better.  When I reduced Zyprexa from 2.5 mg to 1.875 mg I continued to sleep without any problem (this was a miracle for me).  but it was not all a smooth ride all the way to the end.  The lower I went in the dose of Zyprexa, I began to experience some sleep disturbances (nothing like the brutal insomnia I experienced before though) and I started adjusting the melatonin up and going back and cutting Zyprexa by smaller amounts.  when I did my cuts, sometimes I had to give it from one week to 3 weeks before the sleep stabilized again but the sleep disturbance was manageable.

 

This is just a general guideline and if you do a slower taper most likely you will be better off.  This is what i did that worked.  Since every person is different, if you go this route I am sure you will have to make your own adjustments.

 

Hope this helps someone out there.

 

Love

 

Paul

[andy]

well done Paul and thankyou for sharing your story,Olanzapine withdrawal has given me evil insomnia which results in anziety and depression but I am nearly there now.

Its good to hear there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[frasier23]

Paul thanks, are you still on melatonin? Do you think it would have worked if you stopped zyprexa cold turkey?

[AliG]

Paul.  I'm happy for you . I'm pleased that you were able to find a solution to your problems. Can I ask where you got your information from and perhaps if you have some scientific studies that could back up your opinion ?  If you can and they possibly apply to some here , then sharing them in the Melatonin thread in Symptoms & Self - Care, would be great.  We are always on the lookout for anything that might help. As you know everyone is different but personal experience is always welcome.

Ali

[scallywag]

The solution was given to me by a neurologist who put me on a high dose of melatonin.  I had tried melatonin before (for several months I took 3 mg every night and it didn't work). So I was very skeptical but I went along with the Dr because he was willing to help me and I had never tried a high dose.

 

The bottom line is it works.  It worked for me and it did what nothing else was able to do for me.  Today, I am totally off Zyprexa for good thanks to it.  It may work in fixing insomnia induced withdrawal caused by other anti psychotics but I do not know.  My only experience has been with Zyprexa.

 

The original plan was this: start melatonin (regular melatonin, not slow release) 10 mg every night, 2 weeks later cut olanzapine by 1/4.  every 6 weeks after that cut 1/4 olanzapine until you get to "0"...  In reality, I ended up taking up to 26 mg melatonin and had to do a much slower taper of olanzapine at the end.

 

Paul, tapering off Zyprexa with minimal to manageable insomnia is fantastic news.  The neurologist you consulted sounds as if he's done this melatonin cross taper many times before. Did you see him only for one visit or was he monitoring you for a longer period?

 

Also, he might be a good resource to list in the Recommended doctors, therapists, or clinics thread. Do you think he'd be willing to have his name/practice posted here?

[frasier23]

Would be interesting to know if you could taper melatonin as well or do you need now?

[arwilliams]

@Paul2014 Have you been able to come off the melatonin eventually?  Has the effective of the melatonin faded at such a high dosage?

 

I have tried fairly high dosages of it and it has been not effective.

 

10mg seems to be the highest recommended dose so I am concerned about going well to high.

 

 

[Altostrata]

For most people, a lower dose of melatonin, starting at 0.25mg-0.33mg, is more effective for sleep. Higher doses can have a paradoxical effect.

 

You can come off melatonin quickly, a quarter- or half-dose at a step.