Ali: Too late to stop meds?

[Ali]

Thanks for your posts and encouragement. I'm going to go for it. I've never heard of the brass monkey slide - sounds like a dance :0. Going to look it up now.

[AliG]

Ali . It does sound like a dance. It just means a " micro - taper " .  He's a bit  " brassmonkey " !   Whatever that means . At the end of the day, you should go " slow" !!

[bubble]

Hello Ali.

 

I'm replying to your pm here. I've read through your thread and a few things strike me: you reinstated in November and it seems you started tapering on the first sign of improvement. You keep repeating how unstable you are but keep focusing on various tapering methods. I feel this is very wrong and will just lead to more instability.

 

In one of her initial posts to you Karen advises to hold for at least 2-3 months. Given how much you had unstabilised your system with going on and off drugs I would advise a lot more, at least 6 months or any time during which you have felt reasonably stable for some time. We aren't feeling perfect while tapering but cutting at the first sign of improvement is just a big mistake.

 

Making however small cuts won't protect you. Holding is a key part of tapering because it gives your brain the time it needs to regrow itself. Together with time stability is required for that process to be successful.

 

You correctly identified that your impatience is your big problem. We are all like that. One of the most important ways of support I have received here was support in encouraging me to hold. Holding is very difficult but it's the only thing which enables success for reasons I tried to explain.

 

We have also found out that the urgency to taper is one of the wiyhdrawal symptoms as well. So when you feel this urgency it is actually a sign that tapering is a bad idea.

 

I would try to focus as much as possible on improving your quality of living through holding and forget about tapering for a while. Apart from sparing ypu from further suffering that will actually make the whole process faster rather that causing another crash which will every tome take longer and longer to recover from.

 

I can't recommend practicing the art of holding enough.

[Ali]

Hi Rhiannon & Hibari, or anyone else who can advise!!

 

I'm currently tapering off lamactil. My last attempt began last March/ April, but I had to reinstate to my full dose of 150mg in May. I then tried coming off escitalopram 5mg in the Summer which went really well and I enjoyed a couple of months completely drug free before crashing. Not knowing about the advice on this site I reinstated to my original 5mg dose in November.

 

Once again, against my psych doc's advice, I have stared tapering lamactil in January. I am currently in my 5th week of being on 137.5mg lamactil. I plan to get to the 6week mark, and then go to 125mg in two stages (I've only got 25mg tablets ) over 8-10 weeks, before trying to reduce escitalopram again. The rationale for this is that this site has advised tapering off the escitalopram first. If I'm honest I function pretty well on the drugs as they keep my moods very steady - I'm more up and down off them, and a bit more hot headed, which isn't good for the work I do, but I'm really fed up with not being able to think as clearly, and not being able to process information that quickly ( that's if I get to the point it actually sinks in!).

 

Anyway, my question is; My plan was to get to 125mg lamactil, stay on that for 5-6 weeks, then crack on with the escitalopram. However, if I started to experience symptoms within a few weeks of starting my escitalopram taper, how would I know which drug to attribute this to? I ask you, because I note you are tapering more than one drug at the same time.

 

Also, I looked in another thread (not sure which) and Rhiannon, you mentioned "dissolving" drugs in water to get lower doses. I see that you are currently able to make very small cuts to lamactil. I tried this with the orally dispersible 25mg tablets, but found there was still a lot of undissolved tablet in the mixture, and even though I stirred vigorously before pouring some out, I was not convinced I was getting an accurate dose. How are you currently managing to get such small doses?

 

Thanks,

Ali

[Ali]

Oh dear.  Feeling pretty wretched today.  My mood seems to vary so much.  I have more "good" days now, when I don't have a low mood running in the background. These tend to be days when I'm working.  And then there's days like today, typically a weekend or day off, when there's no structure.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on this? My guess is it's not withdrawal, otherwise the feelings would be there regardless of the day of the week and my schedule?

[Altostrata]

Ali, I moved your question to your Intro topic. Responding to it would take the Tapering Lamotrigine topic off-track.

 

Please read this:
 

Hello Ali.

I'm replying to your pm here. I've read through your thread and a few things strike me: you reinstated in November and it seems you started tapering on the first sign of improvement. You keep repeating how unstable you are but keep focusing on various tapering methods. I feel this is very wrong and will just lead to more instability.

In one of her initial posts to you Karen advises to hold for at least 2-3 months. Given how much you had unstabilised your system with going on and off drugs I would advise a lot more, at least 6 months or any time during which you have felt reasonably stable for some time. We aren't feeling perfect while tapering but cutting at the first sign of improvement is just a big mistake.

Making however small cuts won't protect you. Holding is a key part of tapering because it gives your brain the time it needs to regrow itself. Together with time stability is required for that process to be successful.

You correctly identified that your impatience is your big problem. We are all like that. One of the most important ways of support I have received here was support in encouraging me to hold. Holding is very difficult but it's the only thing which enables success for reasons I tried to explain.

We have also found out that the urgency to taper is one of the wiyhdrawal symptoms as well. So when you feel this urgency it is actually a sign that tapering is a bad idea.

I would try to focus as much as possible on improving your quality of living through holding and forget about tapering for a while. Apart from sparing ypu from further suffering that will actually make the whole process faster rather that causing another crash which will every tome take longer and longer to recover from.

I can't recommend practicing the art of holding enough.

[Ali]

Hi Alto

 

I am not sure how Bubble's response answers my question about lamactil?

 

Ali

[Skyler]

Ali, your question was about tapering lamactil.  Bubble's post is about holding.. as in not tapering ANY medications for at least 6 months.

 

Given how much you had unstabilised your system with going on and off drugs I would advise a lot more, at least 6 months or any time during which you have felt reasonably stable for some time. We aren't feeling perfect while tapering but cutting at the first sign of improvement is just a big mistake.

 

[Ali]

thanks Skyler

 

I read Bubble's post and thought it was referring to escitalopram alone. I don't know if that's cos of the pm I sent, but I can't find a way to retrieve it to check. I agree about holding, but 6 months is a bit of a shock and a disappointment. I can't argue with the rationale though.

 

Anyway, what matters is, what do I do now? I cut my lamactil 07 Jan. Had I found this site sooner, I could have taken on board the advice and waited, but I am where I am. Is the suggestion that I reinstate to the full dose of lamactil? Further, what if I never feel 100%? Not sure what level of "stability" I'm aiming for. Surely I will respond to life's ups and downs regardless of what drugs I am on, at whatever dose and however long I hold.

 

Confused

[Skyler]

I'm unclear as to why you are confused.. bubble's post pertains to all medications, including Lamactil.  As you are sensitized to one psychotropic, it will carry over to others, in this case, Lamactil.  Hold for at least 6 months.

[Ali]

well, earlier in my thread, Fresh wrote,

The escitalopram is more activating - the lamictal is a brake. This suggests that you should taper escitalopram first. As Karen suggested , I'd give it at least 2-3 months after reinstating before begining to taper. You should wait a month from your last lamictal decrease.

 

I took this as, wait 2-3 months after November (when I reinstated), ensuring this is a month or more after my lamactil decrease.

 

I think my question to Bubble pertained to this, but I cannot be sure, as, like I said, I can't see how to retrieve my question.

 

The confusion comes from being advised to wait at least 6 months after reinstatement, which both you and Alto have also suggested, but I am unclear as to whether the advice is to reinstate to my original dose of lamactil.

 

I think it's best if I dip out for a while.

best wishes.

[Skyler]

I think my question to Bubble pertained to this, but I cannot be sure, as, like I said, I can't see how to retrieve my question.

 

The confusion comes from being advised to wait at least 6 months after reinstatement, which both you and Alto have also suggested, but I am unclear as to whether the advice is to reinstate to my original dose of lamactil.

 

bubble is one of the moderators... It's often that others chime in.  Sometimes opinions differ here.. but the overall purview is pretty much the same.

 

Reinstatement? Your sig line indicates you are still taking 150 mgs of lamactil.  I think you may be asking if you should updose.. (reinstatment means going back on after you have stopped taking a medication).  Bubble said you should hold, which Alto supports, as do I.  (Please read the fist line in my sig. line.)  Holding is the hardest part of tapering... and make no mistake, not changing the dose IS a part of tapering. 

 

What I'd suggest is sticking around to gain a better understanding as to why you are being advised to hold.  Perhaps you would like to ask a question about why you are being so counseled?

[Ali]

that's my fault, I see that I have put 150 to present, but my last line indicates I cut in Jan.

[Skyler]

that's my fault, I see that I have put 150 to present, but my last line indicates I cut in Jan.

 

Okay, so hold at 137.5 mgs.  That is your current dose?  The important thing is you stop changing doses, and hold at the one for 6 months (or until the withdrawal symptoms stop). Seriously, holding really is the hardest part of tapering.. we are not joshing you. Every day of the 9 months I held I questioned the wisdom.. is this the right thing to do, will I ever start to taper again...   I second guessed ad nauseum!  Oh myyyy, at times I was a basket case.  But I'm now 3 to 4 weeks out from finishing the last of 3 tapers.. and I'm very glad I held.

[Hibari]

Hi Ali,

 

Sorry it took me some time to respond to your message and find my way here.  I posted on another Ali's thread and then realized I should be here instead. 

 

How can I help you in terms of your Lamictal wd?   I can tell where I am at this point with the tapering of two drugs.  

First I only tapered my first drug Remeron from January 2015-July 2015.   In July of 2015 I made the decision to start micro tapering my Lamictal at the same time.   This was a decision I made, not one that is recommended here but there are a few people on this site who have tapered more than one drug.  

 

I started at 200mgs of Lamictal in July 2015 and got down to 50mgs by the end of December 2015.  I started to feel very rocky so I am now holding at 50mgs of Lamictal and concentrating on my Remeron wd.  

 

I have gone through periods of great fear, depression, crying and despair but those are when I am in acute stages of wd.   When I have stabilized, I feel more alive, vibrant and healthy than I ever did before and I know it will get better and better.  

 

So from what I am reading above, you are being encouraged to stabilize on your current dose of Lamictal and then concentrate on your other medication.   Stabilizing is key to making it through the process.

 

One of the tricky parts of wd for me is that when I am in wd, my brain cannot comfort me-it's too stressed out.   Because of that, I get very scared that my wd is really the true me.  But that's not true.  I now have witnessed my pattern of wd and know that I will come through.   For example, I know that when I make a cut to my Remeron, the awful part of wd, high emotion and depression show up about 1-2 weeks later.   I then feel terrrible for about 2-3 days-cry my eyes out and then it starts to lift.  I wait for about another 2 weeks till I know I am feeling strong, healthy and clean and then I make another cut micro cut.

 

My Lamictal pattern is a bit different and I am not as clear about it but I do know that usually feel nauseaus and headachy and very anxious when I make a Lamictal cut.  I will be tracking it again once I start tapering it again  I will also probably make a water solution of the pill to, as Leahy and I say, squeak down mg by mg.

 

You can do it.  This process teaches you a lot about trusting your body.  If you don't feel well, it's time to hold until you feel better.  Better will be different for everyone but I suggest that you let yourself hold, get calm and clear and then make the next decision.  

 

Please feel free to message me any time.

 

H

[Ali]

Can anyone tell me of the theory behind antidepressants causing depression?

 

How would I know the difference between this and poop out?

 

I've reinstated my a/d and cut my lamotrigine slightly. I haven't really regained my previous state since reinstating the a/d. Most days I function really well, but I feel low inside. I have a few good days, and a few where it's a struggle.

 

My concern is that if I'm like this when I'm more or less on my previous full dose, is this it? Is this the best I can hope for? I can't imagine feeling any better with further reductions

 

Anyone else having to pretend to the world that they're fine, and sick and tired of it? Anyone else really surprised if they actually feel good that day?

 

Time to dry my tears, paste on my smile and face the day!!

[KarenB]

My experience:  I've gone from 150mg Effexor to 133mg, very slowly.  The first 3-4 months I still felt like utter crap.  Then things start to improve.  Now, at about 8-9 months since starting tapering I'm feeling a lot happier than I have done in years.  And I do mean years . 

 

I can't explain all the reasons for that - getting to slightly lower doses obviously does help.  Sometimes healing will happen when we have no idea why, or even when we don't expect it. 

 

The theory behind antidepressants causing depression is explained well in Anatomy of an Epidemic.  Basically, un-medicated people both with and without depression have similar serotonin levels.  But once medicated, people's serotonin gets really mucked around.  

 

Everything points to you feeling much better in the future.   

[Ali]

QUESTION:

The pattern for me has been to have had virtually no apparent withdrawal symptoms during the first few months of reducing/ stopping a drug, and then I am hit by emotional symptoms, such as depressed mood and tearfulness? However, the symptoms do not appear to be precipitated by events or difficulties, just seems to happen.

 

Is this Not relapse/ emergence of new episode, as opposed to chemical withdrawal?

 

Doctor Friend has suggested to me that withdrawal would be felt more or less immediately. This is a big issue for me. If it is a reemergence of symptoms that potentially will not ebb with time off the drug, I need to factor this in to the decision I am making, and know what the consequences will be if I decide to come off regardless.

 

I can't find any research on this and was hoping someone could point me in the right direction either way.

[Hopefull]

Hi Ali,

I am tappering Mitrazapine using Soltab.

You mentioned that you are tappering another drug using soluble tablets.

The sediment is normal, you need to stir it quickly and draw out or pour out what you need.

I have asked my self the same question if I am getting an accurate dosage,if paricles are left on the bottom.

But it is as accurate as you can get.

Best wishes to you, Hopefull.

[Ali]

Hi Hopefull

 

Thanks for stopping by. tHis is the best we can hope for, unless the stuff comes in liquid form. I am holding for now, probably until the end of April. I'll see how I feel then. I can cope with the wait, even thoug it's a bit boring. I just don't want o mess it up this time by going too quickly. I'm interested in your history and glad things are looking up. Gives me hope to see that a crash doesn't have to mean going back up to full dose.

[AliG]

Ali.                  

Sometimes it can take months to hit. This is withdrawal - not a re-emergence of previous symptoms. Withdrawal ,is often not felt immediately. There is a "honeymoon period" where you are feeling relatively good , and then it ( W/D ) can hit with a vengeance, and last quite a while.  If you read around and taper off slowly,   you will be in the best place to deal with this , once and for all . You will be able to taper off slowly , and then have a good quality of life, in the future. Drug free.  Doctor's are , for the most part , clueless. I wouldn't rely on them .

There are many  drug - free ways of coping  with emotional problems .

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Ali

[Ali]

Thanks AliG.

I've just had a quick look but am going to need a few hours to look properly. This all requires a real change of mindset, I realise. it's not just about getting off the drugs, and magically feeling better; it's developing the techniques to deal with the emotions that are underneath and currently under control with chemicals.

 

I don't know about you, but I'm not very good at self care. I feel guilty for taking time out. and the last time I did a mindfulness cd, my husband came in and started crashing around, which got me really angry and seemed to defeat the whole object . cHemicals do seem the easier option, I must admit, but I can't keep taking something I may not need, and which may be causing me damage. I'm also SO fed up of my brain working so slowly (I hope it's not simply age!)

[AliG]

Ali.     You are so right. It does require a change in thinking. We have become so accustomed to taking a pill , to fix every little ailment that we have forgotten that the body can, in effect heal itself , given the right conditions. The doctors, of course won't tell you this  as it's in their best interests to promote the idea that medications are the answer.  Follow the money !   So  not true. We have to become our own health advocates, and take charge of our own health. Staying out of the system , is the way to stay healthy , in my opinion. The less you see doctors , the healthier , you will be.

This is where self - care comes in. Don't feel guilty.  You have children, and therefore if you take care of you , they benefit.  It's the oxygen mask scenario ! Take care of yourself first , before you can help others.

Tell your husband , ahead of time & be firm , about your  " time out ."  Mindfulness  CD's etc.

Chemicals are easier , but pointless, at the end of the day.  The real change comes with changing your diet , lifestyle and mindset . It is about developing techniques and strategies , to cope without the drugs. At the end of the day , it's a good lesson and you will be healthier in the long term , as a result. IMO.

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Ali

[Ali]

You're right. It's going to be a lot of work, but you can't have the penny and the bun, eh!

 

My children are so used to me being there, they hate it when I leave them, and I don't think they see me as having needs of my own.

 

Trying to reduce sugar at the mo. My body is resisting the decision! I also want to do some exercise but I suffer with a bad back so it has to be walking. I miss the exhilaration of a good run, but I can only work with what I've got. Again, it's down to bad self care that I don't do these things, so I need to give myself a good kick up the a*se and get on with it. I'll let you know...

[Altostrata]

Ali, you describe a pattern of reductions with delayed withdrawal symptoms. This indicates the reductions were too large and too fast. Sometimes it takes a while for your nervous system to start complaining that it hasn't been able to keep up with the changes.

 

When this happens, you can do any of these:

 

- Keep on reducing. Generally, this makes withdrawal symptoms worse.  OR

- Hold on any more changes until your nervous system stabilizes. OR

- Updose the drug you have been reducing to a prior dosage when your nervous system wasn't complaining. Hold until symptoms go away.

 

The length of time it takes for your nervous system to stabilize after a change, including updosing, varies from individual to individual. It can be a month or a few or it could be longer. It seems your nervous system still needs time to settle down.

 

There is no cookbook that says "updose, hold for 3 months, then reduce" and you'll get a beautiful cake. You have to determine your next steps by assessing your current condition. This is what we mean by "listen to your body."

 

Your nervous system has been sensitized by your history of drug changes. It could be drugs will never have the same effect on you again, even if you updose to prior dosages. Or, it could be you need to be patient and help your nervous system settle down. Read The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

[Hopefull]

Ho Ali, you are welcome.

Hold your current dose until you feel stable.

I held for 5 months.

Best wishes, Hopefull.

[Ali]

Needing encouragement.

 

Sorry to post something depressing, struggling a bit. I reckon my escitalopram/ lexapro has pooped out on me. I am getting these days where I am just so down, I'm bad tempered with family, and just reckon I should keep away from people just to preserve my relationships. I feel as though I'm behind a glass wall sometimes, people talk and I can see their lips moving, but I can't connect with what they're saying. my voice becomes a monotone and people probably think I don't want to be around them. Hardly the way to win friends. I can't explain to them what is going on, cos I hardly know myself.

 

The worst thing is, telling a close family member you feel like s*** and have them barely acknowledge it, just carry on with what they were doing. Why ask how I feel if they only want one answer? People say to be real, be yourself etc, but you wonder how many people really mean that. Do they mean, "be yourself, but not if you're going to have difficult emotions that I can't cope with", or, "be yourself, but just not when we're together".

 

I wish I could drive into the mountains, live on my own and chop wood.

[leahy]

Hi Ali,

 

No one really wants to hear how we are feeling. It must be difficult for them to empathize, and I get that. On the very few and far between good days I have had in the past year, I find myself (when I actually become aware of feeling "fine") thinking what headache? What nausea? What eye pain? and so on. How soon we forget. When we feel "fine" we are not even thinking about pain and suffering and throwing up. We're doing stuff! 

 

My son texted me last night and this morning to check on me. He knows I'm making a cut. Highly unusual, though. I was surprised by this. Maybe his girlfriend prompted him to check on me? (She's studying nursing.) But do you notice my surprise here? I said I felt sh*tty but better than expected. Who wants to hear my real truth? I don't even want to hear my real truth. It sucks. But it was nice that he asked.

 

You are not alone in this. We are suffering on a daily basis, month after month, year after year. Who can relate to this kind of suffering? Only those who are experiencing it. There are thousands of us suffering right alongside you. :-)

 

Leahy

[Ali]

Thanks Leahy.

 

I like, "...sh*tty but better than expected". Doesn't that just sum up the relativity of it all!! I'm trying to keep a record of my daily moods but as there are many shades of cr*p it's starting to look like some WWll code.

 

You're right. No-one really wants to hear about it, 'cos they cannot relate to it, and there's not a thing they can do about it when you say, "Oh, s*** again, darling, glad you asked?". I don't even know what I want them to do, but I get angry anyway!!

 

I had a few years between two episodes of depression and they were so far apart I couldn't really remember what it felt like. I just remembered that it happened. It almost felt alien to me, and I thought I'd left it all behind. Ha ha, joke was in me!

 

While it doesn't take away the pain and loneliness, it's so good to have found somewhere, where people just get it, where I don't have to explain, and where it's okay to be not okay.

 

Thanks so much for your support.

[leahy]

Yes, Ali, I was so happy my son actually showed concern that I didn't want to ruin it by saying something like "I think throwing myself off a bridge might feel better than the way I really feel."

 

Boy! Can I get dramatic very quickly these days. Good thing I am don't say what I really feel most of the time. It is easier because live alone. I can hide out and lay low hoping for the storm to pass. I feel like I am wasting precious time being sick. When is this storm going to pass!

 

Hey. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. So is a body a terrible thing to waste. As I waste another day...

 

Maybe tomorrow will be better.

[Roxyrich]

I wish I could waste days faster ,I know it's a shame, but I don't care how we get better, as long as we do.sorry for butting in.

[leahy]

I wish I could waste days faster ,I know it's a shame, but I don't care how we get better, as long as we do.sorry for butting in.

 

 

Hahaha! You made me laugh out loud. Sorry, but this is a great line! I keep looking at the clock thinking why isn't this day over yet?

 

See that, Ali? We totally understand you. xx

[Ali]

I wish I could waste days faster ,I know it's a shame, but I don't care how we get better, as long as we do.sorry for butting in.

I would hope this isn't a site where commenting on a thread is exclusive to some! Nice of you to stop by.

[Ali]

Lightheadedness.

 

Been suffering from lightheaded feelings late afternoon/ evenings for the last couple of weeks. Almost feels like I've had a glass of wine. Just feels weird and disconcerting. I find I can't really take in any written info when I'm like it, the information just doesn't sink in despite me reading and re-reading.

 

Anyone any idea if this is the reduction in lamactil or reinstatement of lexapro?

 

Has anyone experienced anything similar?

[nz11]

WdlNormal ...Later ....includes but is not limited to trouble reading or concentratiing.  It also includes loose bowels which i got when i started to post and had to rush off.

[Ali]

Thanks nz11. I hope it eases up eventually, my lightheadedness too!!!

 

Are you drug free now?